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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
2877 Posts

Posted - 24 Apr 2011 :  04:32:16  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


Doesn't sound that great to me. But thanks, anyway. Perhaps I should read those books. But the big problem is that there is a strong elven presence in those novels. So I have to pass. One day, if ever that day comes, when I get over my love for elves, I might read the said books.



-He's basically an Elven Tony Soprano in Waterdeep's underworld. Organized crime kingpins, I'd classify them as bad, bad people.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 24 Apr 2011 :  04:41:54  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

In CoS, he struck me as neutral. But then again, even bad guys can play neutral if it suits their interest.

Every beginning has an end.
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ChieftainTwilight
Learned Scribe

171 Posts

Posted - 24 Apr 2011 :  10:02:59  Show Profile  Send ChieftainTwilight a Yahoo! Message Send ChieftainTwilight a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


The poll says, "Not necessarily your favorite villain, but the greatest one you can think of."

What exactly did Elaith do that makes him one of the choices in this poll? No sarcasm intended. It's an honest curiosity. I hardly know him. I only remember him from Ed and Elaine's City of Splendors; and though there are hints as to his accomplishments here and there, they are not explained, let alone revealed in the book.



-Well, to be metagame for a second, his alignment in the FRCS was Neutral Evil. That aside, he began his path to ruin when engaging in Elven tomb robbing, as described in Evermeet: Island of the Elves. Not evil, per se, but...After he left Evermeet and came to Watderdeep, all angry and hopeless because of what happened there, and with Princess Amnestria, he became a mercenary for hire who had no problem doing the "dirty" things that some mercenaries do, like senseless killing, assassination, and that kind of stuff. He slowly built up his reputation, and became something of a local underworld mafioso, specifically known for his ruthlessness and brutality. He utilizes Necromancy, not an evil thing per se, but a highly prohibited Elven taboo. In Dream Spheres he had no problem using the black kiira, a twisted and evil artifact.

-If you haven't read them, the Songs and Swords series is a must read, not just for information about Elaith, but just because they're among the cream of the crop of Forgotten Realms novels, period.



I have to point out, to be fair, that the only reason Elaith held no qualms against ussing the Kiira was becase he convinced himself that he shouldn't care. he was trying to play the part, to truely become a heartless bastard, even though there's still a light in him that keeps telling him not to. it was a point of pride that he used his Elvish heritage for purposes of amassing wealth and power regadless of the harm it brings others. and to that end, he purposely ignores the damage he is causing himself (unless it is direct or nearly-direct physical harm).

of course, his one weakness is always going to be his little girl. even he doesn't feel that he is breaking character in any terrible way to have a heart for his own family.

personally, my reason for voting Elaith however is that he is exactly that kind of ruthless, complex, principled, influential, and most of all iconic character that makes for the most usable and reusable villain in a story.

and a heart can only break so many times
and I've been to hell and back so many times
and I've seen folks walk away so many times
but just like anyone else I gotta stand up by myself
and a heart can only break so many times
a heart can only break so many times
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ChieftainTwilight
Learned Scribe

171 Posts

Posted - 24 Apr 2011 :  10:05:12  Show Profile  Send ChieftainTwilight a Yahoo! Message Send ChieftainTwilight a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


In CoS, he struck me as neutral. But then again, even bad guys can play neutral if it suits their interest.



he's definitely not Neutral, however one of the main plot points concerning him is that he has the potential to flip completely from Evil to Good over time under the right circumstances, and he definitely displaysthe occaisional momentary change of heart, or whatever you wanna call it. he's an interesting guy, that's for sure. =w=

and a heart can only break so many times
and I've been to hell and back so many times
and I've seen folks walk away so many times
but just like anyone else I gotta stand up by myself
and a heart can only break so many times
a heart can only break so many times
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 25 Apr 2011 :  08:11:58  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

So he's evil with some dose of "shadiness"? That is, he occasionally shows a good heart that readers find it difficult to categorize him as purely evil?

Every beginning has an end.
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author

2235 Posts

Posted - 26 Apr 2011 :  04:08:37  Show Profile  Visit ElaineCunningham's Homepage Send ElaineCunningham a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


So he's evil with some dose of "shadiness"? That is, he occasionally shows a good heart that readers find it difficult to categorize him as purely evil?



I'm puzzled, Dennis: Why the interest in Elaith Craulnober?

Elaith Craulnober is an elf. He appears primarily in novels that contain elven characters, themes, and lore. In short, if you don't like elves--and you frequently state that you do not--don't waste your time reading the Songs & Swords series.

I'm not being flippant. Life is too short to read books you're almost certain to dislike.

I don't read every type of fiction, myself. I don't read westerns, for example. I have nothing against them, per se. I'm sure there are some mighty fine westerns out there. I might be missing out. But I can live with that.



Edited by - ElaineCunningham on 26 Apr 2011 04:15:35
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3747 Posts

Posted - 26 Apr 2011 :  04:44:20  Show Profile  Click to see Alystra Illianniis's MSN Messenger address Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I sense some interest here, perhaps? A chink in the anti-elf armor, maybe? LOL!!

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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 26 Apr 2011 :  05:14:07  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

I sense some interest here, perhaps? A chink in the anti-elf armor, maybe? LOL!!



Almost. Elaith is more like an offshoot. My plan to break my oath not to read elfy novels was first prompted by my desire to know more about Sarya. Speaking of whom, did she actively participate in the battle in The Last Mythal trilogy? Or did she leave all the fun to Malkizid?

Every beginning has an end.
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
2877 Posts

Posted - 26 Apr 2011 :  07:18:56  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham

I'm puzzled, Dennis: Why the interest in Elaith Craulnober?


-Can't answer for him, but Elaith probably is one of the most dynamic, realistic, relatable characters in the setting (and, of course, in Forgotten Realms literature). As one of dramatis personae in the setting (in terms of us readers, not in the world itself) I don't really ever recall people disliking him. I've heard people say such things about Drizzt, Elminster, Erevis Cale, Storm Silverhand, plenty of other people.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

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Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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ChieftainTwilight
Learned Scribe

171 Posts

Posted - 26 Apr 2011 :  08:56:04  Show Profile  Send ChieftainTwilight a Yahoo! Message Send ChieftainTwilight a Private Message  Reply with Quote
heh. Elain, don't knock it so quickly. XD life is short, aye, that's why you shoul take the opportunities to try new things whn you feel a sudden pull. for example, you say you don't like westrns, but I can guaruntee you that Clint Eastwood stars in (and I think directs all) five Westerns that just may blow you away. moving stories, gripping scenes, and some of the most epic lines I've ever heard. happy endings, sad endings, and bittersweet endings.

also, one of my favourite personal lines of Westerns are the Doc Holiday films. what a character, Doc Holiday... there's Clementine, and Gunfight at the O.K. Corrale. there's also Tombstone, but I don't know what number that one is, I'm guessing it's the first or second. I know that Gunfight at the O.K. Corrale is the last one.

of course, then again I could just be biased. XD I love Westerns.

still, if he's got a sudden interest, why assume his hatred of Elves will stick? maybe he'll actually enjoy the Songs & Swords series? Danillo Thann and Arylin Moonblade are interesting characters, as is Khelben. and also that Dwarf girl, I forget her name at the moment...

and a heart can only break so many times
and I've been to hell and back so many times
and I've seen folks walk away so many times
but just like anyone else I gotta stand up by myself
and a heart can only break so many times
a heart can only break so many times

Edited by - ChieftainTwilight on 26 Apr 2011 08:56:51
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29643 Posts

Posted - 26 Apr 2011 :  11:14:47  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ChieftainTwilight


still, if he's got a sudden interest, why assume his hatred of Elves will stick? maybe he'll actually enjoy the Songs & Swords series? Danillo Thann and Arylin Moonblade are interesting characters, as is Khelben. and also that Dwarf girl, I forget her name at the moment...



Morgala the Mirthful.

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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author

2235 Posts

Posted - 26 Apr 2011 :  12:03:25  Show Profile  Visit ElaineCunningham's Homepage Send ElaineCunningham a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ChieftainTwilight

heh. Elain, don't knock it so quickly. XD life is short, aye, that's why you shoul take the opportunities to try new things whn you feel a sudden pull. for example, you say you don't like westrns, but I can guaruntee you that Clint Eastwood stars in (and I think directs all) five Westerns that just may blow you away. moving stories, gripping scenes, and some of the most epic lines I've ever heard. happy endings, sad endings, and bittersweet endings.

also, one of my favourite personal lines of Westerns are the Doc Holiday films. what a character, Doc Holiday... there's Clementine, and Gunfight at the O.K. Corrale. there's also Tombstone, but I don't know what number that one is, I'm guessing it's the first or second. I know that Gunfight at the O.K. Corrale is the last one.
...



I didn't say that I didn't like western movies; in fact, I thought the remake of "True Grit" was a remarkable film. I don't read western BOOKS. Louis L'Amour, Zane Grey, and so on. There's a genre called "westerns," just as there's a genre called "fantasy." It's not as active as it used to be, but some genres tend to come in cycles. (Remember the family saga? That was big for a while.)

Western settings in sub-genres don't hold much appeal, either. There are several well-known romance writers who specialize in steamy cowboys. Some people like that sort of thing. I hold nothing against them. I'd just rather read something else.

On the other hand, I probably will see "Cowboys and Aliens," which brings the books vs. movies theme full circle.


Edited by - ElaineCunningham on 26 Apr 2011 12:11:36
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ChieftainTwilight
Learned Scribe

171 Posts

Posted - 27 Apr 2011 :  08:18:20  Show Profile  Send ChieftainTwilight a Yahoo! Message Send ChieftainTwilight a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by ChieftainTwilight


still, if he's got a sudden interest, why assume his hatred of Elves will stick? maybe he'll actually enjoy the Songs & Swords series? Danillo Thann and Arylin Moonblade are interesting characters, as is Khelben. and also that Dwarf girl, I forget her name at the moment...



Morgala the Mirthful.



yeh, that's it! :D I enjoyed her alot! ^_^

and a heart can only break so many times
and I've been to hell and back so many times
and I've seen folks walk away so many times
but just like anyone else I gotta stand up by myself
and a heart can only break so many times
a heart can only break so many times
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ChieftainTwilight
Learned Scribe

171 Posts

Posted - 27 Apr 2011 :  08:20:17  Show Profile  Send ChieftainTwilight a Yahoo! Message Send ChieftainTwilight a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham

quote:
Originally posted by ChieftainTwilight

heh. Elain, don't knock it so quickly. XD life is short, aye, that's why you shoul take the opportunities to try new things whn you feel a sudden pull. for example, you say you don't like westrns, but I can guaruntee you that Clint Eastwood stars in (and I think directs all) five Westerns that just may blow you away. moving stories, gripping scenes, and some of the most epic lines I've ever heard. happy endings, sad endings, and bittersweet endings.

also, one of my favourite personal lines of Westerns are the Doc Holiday films. what a character, Doc Holiday... there's Clementine, and Gunfight at the O.K. Corrale. there's also Tombstone, but I don't know what number that one is, I'm guessing it's the first or second. I know that Gunfight at the O.K. Corrale is the last one.
...



I didn't say that I didn't like western movies; in fact, I thought the remake of "True Grit" was a remarkable film. I don't read western BOOKS. Louis L'Amour, Zane Grey, and so on. There's a genre called "westerns," just as there's a genre called "fantasy." It's not as active as it used to be, but some genres tend to come in cycles. (Remember the family saga? That was big for a while.)

Western settings in sub-genres don't hold much appeal, either. There are several well-known romance writers who specialize in steamy cowboys. Some people like that sort of thing. I hold nothing against them. I'd just rather read something else.

On the other hand, I probably will see "Cowboys and Aliens," which brings the books vs. movies theme full circle.





keheh. >w< you do that. summarize it for me if ya get the chance please, but don't spoil the ending for me.

and a heart can only break so many times
and I've been to hell and back so many times
and I've seen folks walk away so many times
but just like anyone else I gotta stand up by myself
and a heart can only break so many times
a heart can only break so many times
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ChieftainTwilight
Learned Scribe

171 Posts

Posted - 27 Apr 2011 :  08:20:52  Show Profile  Send ChieftainTwilight a Yahoo! Message Send ChieftainTwilight a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham

quote:
Originally posted by ChieftainTwilight

heh. Elain, don't knock it so quickly. XD life is short, aye, that's why you shoul take the opportunities to try new things whn you feel a sudden pull. for example, you say you don't like westrns, but I can guaruntee you that Clint Eastwood stars in (and I think directs all) five Westerns that just may blow you away. moving stories, gripping scenes, and some of the most epic lines I've ever heard. happy endings, sad endings, and bittersweet endings.

also, one of my favourite personal lines of Westerns are the Doc Holiday films. what a character, Doc Holiday... there's Clementine, and Gunfight at the O.K. Corrale. there's also Tombstone, but I don't know what number that one is, I'm guessing it's the first or second. I know that Gunfight at the O.K. Corrale is the last one.
...



I didn't say that I didn't like western movies; in fact, I thought the remake of "True Grit" was a remarkable film. I don't read western BOOKS. Louis L'Amour, Zane Grey, and so on. There's a genre called "westerns," just as there's a genre called "fantasy." It's not as active as it used to be, but some genres tend to come in cycles. (Remember the family saga? That was big for a while.)

Western settings in sub-genres don't hold much appeal, either. There are several well-known romance writers who specialize in steamy cowboys. Some people like that sort of thing. I hold nothing against them. I'd just rather read something else.

On the other hand, I probably will see "Cowboys and Aliens," which brings the books vs. movies theme full circle.





keheh. >w< you do that. summarize it for me if ya get the chance please, but don't spoil the ending for me.

and a heart can only break so many times
and I've been to hell and back so many times
and I've seen folks walk away so many times
but just like anyone else I gotta stand up by myself
and a heart can only break so many times
a heart can only break so many times
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 29 Apr 2011 :  05:02:48  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Who's Kymil Nimesin?

Every beginning has an end.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31683 Posts

Posted - 29 Apr 2011 :  05:39:50  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


Who's Kymil Nimesin?

He was the gold elf responsible for the death of Arilyn's mother. See Elfshadow and 2e's Villains' Lorebook.

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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 29 Apr 2011 :  05:57:25  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

I see. Another elf.

Thanks, Sage.

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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
2877 Posts

Posted - 29 Apr 2011 :  06:28:07  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


Who's Kymil Nimesin?

He was the gold elf responsible for the death of Arilyn's mother. See Elfshadow and 2e's Villains' Lorebook.



-And Evermeet: Island of the Elves.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium

Edited by - Lord Karsus on 29 Apr 2011 06:28:20
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ChieftainTwilight
Learned Scribe

171 Posts

Posted - 29 Apr 2011 :  06:47:27  Show Profile  Send ChieftainTwilight a Yahoo! Message Send ChieftainTwilight a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


Who's Kymil Nimesin?

He was the gold elf responsible for the death of Arilyn's mother. See Elfshadow and 2e's Villains' Lorebook.



yeh, that dude was an A-hole, but he didn't have enough staying power, not enough pizaz.

and a heart can only break so many times
and I've been to hell and back so many times
and I've seen folks walk away so many times
but just like anyone else I gotta stand up by myself
and a heart can only break so many times
a heart can only break so many times
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 29 Apr 2011 :  11:22:42  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

I wonder why Larloch didn't make it on the list. Perhaps because no one really knows what he's up to, then and now?

I guess the poll's title should be changed to "Most Likeable Villain," as most scribes voted their favorites, which are not necessarily the greatest.

Every beginning has an end.
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe

Canada
789 Posts

Posted - 04 May 2011 :  23:50:57  Show Profile Send Firestorm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


I wonder why Larloch didn't make it on the list. Perhaps because no one really knows what he's up to, then and now?

I guess the poll's title should be changed to "Most Likeable Villain," as most scribes voted their favorites, which are not necessarily the greatest.



Larloch is one of the most powerful baddies in FR, but he pretty much stays reclusive and does not affect the world on a grand scale that we know of.

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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 05 May 2011 :  04:42:51  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Because you qualify it with "that we know of," I'm fine with it. I guess I'm just eager to know what exactly he is up to.

Every beginning has an end.
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Artemas Entreri
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USA
3008 Posts

Posted - 26 Aug 2011 :  19:10:08  Show Profile  Visit Artemas Entreri's Homepage Send Artemas Entreri a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Entreri all the way

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AdamBridger
Learned Scribe

United Kingdom
118 Posts

Posted - 27 Aug 2011 :  11:48:02  Show Profile Send AdamBridger a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478

Entreri all the way



I have never really viewed him as a true villain. Sure he has been an oppenent of Drizzt for a long time and has done some despicable things but I don't think that he is wholly evil. He is a very dark character who has partially damned himself but not completely - in my mind there is still a small chance of some redemption for him.

By the way I haven't yet managed to read the Transitions Trilogy or the Neverwinter Books as of yet, so if you feel the need to correct me try to not give too much away
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