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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
2880 Posts

Posted - 08 Dec 2008 :  15:35:37  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

Nobody thought the Great Khan was evil?

I know they washed him out entirely too easily in the novels; but this guy thought nothing of torching entire cities...


-Yamun was not evil, no. He believed it was his destiny, shown to him by Teylas (Akadi) to do what he did. He's no more evil than, say, the Pope. Yamun was no priest, but the religious connection is there.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29724 Posts

Posted - 08 Dec 2008 :  17:04:22  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion

quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

Nobody thought the Great Khan was evil?

I know they washed him out entirely too easily in the novels; but this guy thought nothing of torching entire cities...


-Yamun was not evil, no. He believed it was his destiny, shown to him by Teylas (Akadi) to do what he did. He's no more evil than, say, the Pope. Yamun was no priest, but the religious connection is there.



I don't know that I can agree with that. Being willing to murder multiple people (sometimes in large numbers) in pursuit of a personal goal is pretty much a definition of evil. I'd call him NE, myself.

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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
2880 Posts

Posted - 08 Dec 2008 :  17:44:10  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I don't know that I can agree with that. Being willing to murder multiple people (sometimes in large numbers) in pursuit of a personal goal is pretty much a definition of evil. I'd call him NE, myself.



-This is where D&D alignment fails. Culturally speaking, those European Crusaders were convinced that they were fighting the good fight, and doing G-d's will. Various Kings, Queens, and Pope's supported them, and told them they were doing good things, doing G-d's will, killing people. Likewise, all of those Jihadists and suicide bombers are convinced that they are doing G-d's will, killing themselves and other innocent people on buses, in marketplaces, and in cafes. Can you really be evil if you are taught to believe something is good? Would a Muslim family that practices honor killings be good or bad (killing)? Is a Jewish family that practices circumcision be good or bad (mutilation)? Is a Christian family that "does the Lord's work" by blowing up abortion clinics good or bad (killing/destruction)? It's all a matter of point of view.

-Good and evil aren't objective concepts. D&D has Negative Energy and Positive Energy as objective things, but good and evil are not. Yamun was taught to be the "Lord of the Steppes", and was told that Teylas was blessing him and telling him to conquer Kara-Tur and Faerūn. From his point of view, I don't think he saw any of that as evil. He believed that he was empowered by Teylas to do so. He was simply carrying out the will of the deities. He was simply doing what the deities commanded. He was simply doing what needed to be done.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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USA
29724 Posts

Posted - 08 Dec 2008 :  18:05:27  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I disagree. I don't think intent is the only component of an alignment. If you do bad things to others with the goal of benefitting yourself, that's evil.

It's not something that falls neatly into a black/white scale. But wrong is wrong... So it doesn't matter if he believed it was his destiny, or if he was just following orders, or what. The end result: a whole lot of people died to give him what he wanted for himself. That's evil.

Now, if his intent would have been freeing his people from oppression, then that would have been another story. But Hoekun Yamun Khahan was looking out for number 1, and his people second -- they were the tools for his goal more than they were the beneficiaries of it. Conquest was unnecessary and served no goal other than stroking his ego.

I'd respond more specifically to some of your points, but that's getting into real world issues, which we try to avoid here.

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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
2880 Posts

Posted - 08 Dec 2008 :  18:16:01  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-Wrong is not wrong. What is wrong somewhere is not wrong elsewhere. There is no such thing as an objective wrong. That is what is inherently flawed about D&D's alignment system. There is no such thing as an objective concept of 'wrong' to govern things. There are only various subjective concepts of wrong, some of which are more prevalent than others. There are societies in which murder, rape, stealing, these things are not looked at with scorn.

-This has all be discussed so many other times, in so many other places. No point beating a dead horse, I guess.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
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Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium

Edited by - Lord Karsus on 08 Dec 2008 18:31:04
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29724 Posts

Posted - 08 Dec 2008 :  18:40:36  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion

-This has all be discussed so many other times, in so many other places. No point beating a dead horse, I guess.



Truth. I guess this is yet another thing on which you and I agree to disagree.

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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader

USA
3067 Posts

Posted - 08 Dec 2008 :  18:42:07  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sorry, Dag, I'm with Wooly on this one. I was raised Christian, and I think that that the people bombing abortion clinics and planned parenthood is wrong. I also believe that the death penalty is wrong no matter what the crime.

Granted, there are societies where things like that are not considered wrong, but the alignment system and good and evil in general are personal convictions. I hate to say it (really, I do), but the perfect example is Drizzt. He comes from a society where what you are saying are completely normal. What you are talking about is not Good/Evil but Outcast/Aspirant to the culture.

Societies where murder, rape, etc are not looked upon with scorn are usually doomed to be subsumed into other cultures. Even then, those cultures usually act in that nature to other cultures. The 'we're better than them' outlook, as it were.

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29724 Posts

Posted - 08 Dec 2008 :  19:12:23  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
...And let's not go any further into real world stuff, please.

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Kuje
Great Reader

USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 08 Dec 2008 :  19:25:16  Show Profile  Send Kuje an AOL message  Click to see Kuje's MSN Messenger address  Send Kuje a Yahoo! Message Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sorry, but he's listed as LE and that alignment, to me, makes perfect sense for the things he did. So yeah, again, to me Yamun is evil.

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

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Grayson Haeldreth
Acolyte

USA
1 Posts

Posted - 08 Dec 2008 :  21:16:29  Show Profile  Visit Grayson Haeldreth's Homepage  Send Grayson Haeldreth a Yahoo! Message Send Grayson Haeldreth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think Yamun may have been given too much similarity with our worlds big Khan...and that dude WAS evil.

The easiest way to say if Yamun is evil or not is how he is written in the history books! Since those books are no doubt written by the Shou and folks of Faerun proper, there is little doubt in my mind that Yamun is considered evil by all those people.

I mentioned him because he is one of the only folks to ever have a huge influence on both Faerun and Kara-Tur...but it was seemingly so temporary and faded quickly; almost like the folks that brought him on the stage wished that they hadn't.

Had he been used the "right" way, no doubt many more people would think him some Steppe Demon instead of a brief mention in the history of the world.

EDIT: hehehe...didn't realize I was on my role-playing profile LOL (Dalor here!)

"Can I tell you a story lad?"

Edited by - Grayson Haeldreth on 08 Dec 2008 21:30:56
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31687 Posts

Posted - 08 Dec 2008 :  23:12:42  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje

Sorry, but he's listed as LE and that alignment, to me, makes perfect sense for the things he did. So yeah, again, to me Yamun is evil.
I'm inclined to agree. While Yamaun certainly displayed some lawful-tendencies, he was evil in the classic sense of the term -- or rather, in terms of how most lawful-societies in the Realms would tend to view such alignments.

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edappel
Learned Scribe

Brazil
211 Posts

Posted - 29 Apr 2009 :  20:43:00  Show Profile  Click to see edappel's MSN Messenger address Send edappel a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Szass Tam after reading The Haunted Lands... Such a good plot.

--- Ed Appel

*** I'm a brazilian FR fan. So, feel free to correct my writing mistakes to improve my english.
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swifty
Senior Scribe

United Kingdom
517 Posts

Posted - 30 Apr 2009 :  21:41:32  Show Profile  Visit swifty's Homepage Send swifty a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth

Likeable villian award goes to Elaith

Evil and depraived villian award goes to Neb the Child killer

any lore on neb the child killer.never heard of him.

go back to sleep america.everything is under control.heres american gladiators.watch this.shuttup. BILL HICKS.
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skychrome
Senior Scribe

713 Posts

Posted - 30 Apr 2009 :  23:48:32  Show Profile  Visit skychrome's Homepage Send skychrome a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by swifty
any lore on neb the child killer.never heard of him.


Neb is a NPC from the Baldur's Gate computer game series.

"You make an intriguing offer, one that is very tempting. It would seem that I have little alternative than to answer thusly: DISINTEGRATE!" Vaarsuvius, Order of the Stick 625
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe

USA
623 Posts

Posted - 01 May 2009 :  02:10:50  Show Profile  Visit Knight of the Gate's Homepage  Send Knight of the Gate a Yahoo! Message Send Knight of the Gate a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ummm... hello... Larloch? Only possible answer to this question.

How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco
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skychrome
Senior Scribe

713 Posts

Posted - 02 May 2009 :  02:17:26  Show Profile  Visit skychrome's Homepage Send skychrome a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmm... I am not sure if I would consider Larloch really a villain. After all he is not looking for conquest but simply wants to be left alone to improve his studies.

"You make an intriguing offer, one that is very tempting. It would seem that I have little alternative than to answer thusly: DISINTEGRATE!" Vaarsuvius, Order of the Stick 625
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Auzoros
Learned Scribe

Australia
97 Posts

Posted - 31 Jul 2009 :  10:25:19  Show Profile Send Auzoros a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Manshoon!! He may not be the greatest but he is certainly my favourite. He has always held my imagination ever since I read Spellfire and read about the Zhentarim in the source books. I just wish a whole novel or trilogy was written about him.

There is so much material to work on...his adventuring days with his brother Asmuth, and Chess, the founding of the Zhentarim, his role as leader of the Zhentarim, not to mention the Manshoon Wars.

IMO there isn't enough good reading about Manshoon. *sigh*

(begging) please, oh pretty please could one of our fine writters put Manshoon in the limelight? Ed? Doug? Paul? Elaine?
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Jorkens
Great Reader

Norway
2950 Posts

Posted - 31 Jul 2009 :  11:53:38  Show Profile Send Jorkens a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There's quite a bit of Manshoon in Ed's Knights trilogy.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31687 Posts

Posted - 31 Jul 2009 :  15:18:06  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens

There's quite a bit of Manshoon in Ed's Knights trilogy.

Indeed.

In fact, one of my most favourite scenes in the trilogy features a standoff between Manshoon, Elminster, Khelben, and poor old Vangy.

Good stuff!

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Auzoros
Learned Scribe

Australia
97 Posts

Posted - 31 Jul 2009 :  18:35:49  Show Profile Send Auzoros a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens

There's quite a bit of Manshoon in Ed's Knights trilogy.



Im intent on buying those books. If Sage speaks highly of them (and I know he's a Manshoon fan too), then I can't wait to read them.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31687 Posts

Posted - 01 Aug 2009 :  01:07:42  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Auzoros

quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens

There's quite a bit of Manshoon in Ed's Knights trilogy.



Im intent on buying those books. If Sage speaks highly of them (and I know he's a Manshoon fan too), then I can't wait to read them.

Note, however, that they are mostly brief scenes featuring Manshoon. He's not a main cast character in the trilogy. Rather, he pops up from time to time. But they're more than enough for those who love Manshoon and his antics.

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Auzoros
Learned Scribe

Australia
97 Posts

Posted - 01 Aug 2009 :  06:10:17  Show Profile Send Auzoros a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

quote:
Originally posted by Auzoros

quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens

There's quite a bit of Manshoon in Ed's Knights trilogy.


Im intent on buying those books. If Sage speaks highly of them (and I know he's a Manshoon fan too), then I can't wait to read them.

Note, however, that they are mostly brief scenes featuring Manshoon. He's not a main cast character in the trilogy. Rather, he pops up from time to time. But they're more than enough for those who love Manshoon and his antics.



Well I've just placed my order with Amazon (along with a few other novels).

Unfortunately the dropkick that's selling them on eBay (Australia) atm likes to change his/her pricing options during the final hours of bidding...the greedy so-and-so!

Edited by - Auzoros on 01 Aug 2009 07:50:42
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31687 Posts

Posted - 01 Aug 2009 :  07:51:30  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Auzoros

quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

quote:
Originally posted by Auzoros

quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens

There's quite a bit of Manshoon in Ed's Knights trilogy.


Im intent on buying those books. If Sage speaks highly of them (and I know he's a Manshoon fan too), then I can't wait to read them.

Note, however, that they are mostly brief scenes featuring Manshoon. He's not a main cast character in the trilogy. Rather, he pops up from time to time. But they're more than enough for those who love Manshoon and his antics.



Well I've just placed my order with Amazon (along with a few other novels).

Unfortunately the dropkick that's selling them on eBay atm likes to change his/her pricing options during the final hours of bidding...the greedy so-and-so!

It's a shame you've already ordered from Amazon. Because I know both MilSims and Galaxy Books here in Australia still have copies of all three books available for purchase and mail-order.

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Penknight
Senior Scribe

USA
536 Posts

Posted - 01 Aug 2009 :  07:56:32  Show Profile Send Penknight a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ok, apparently there is a favorite villain thread.

As I've said elsewhere, Cythara from The Greater Treasure is my favorite villain thus far. I feel that Sarya could have really been something, but... nevermind. I won't say any more about that.

I'm really hoping to see more of Cythara and her brother in the future! Maybe a mention will be made of her fey'ri bladesinger lover?

Telethian Phoenix
Pathfinder Reference Document

Edited by - Penknight on 01 Aug 2009 08:09:44
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MerrikCale
Senior Scribe

USA
947 Posts

Posted - 02 Aug 2009 :  12:46:14  Show Profile  Visit MerrikCale's Homepage Send MerrikCale a Private Message  Reply with Quote
can I vote for the authors of the 4E Campaign book? Those are indeed the greatest villians of the Realms in my book



When hinges creak in doorless chambers and strange and frightening sounds echo through the halls, whenever candlelights flicker where the air is deathly still, that is the time when ghosts are present, practicing their terror with ghoulish delight.
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