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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore

1221 Posts

Posted - 02 May 2011 :  03:05:54  Show Profile  Visit Chosen of Asmodeus's Homepage Send Chosen of Asmodeus a Private Message
You still think he considers it a mistake. I've seen nothing to suggest that he considers the events of the Pirate King other than a resounding success, greater than he could have hoped for. Not only does he have the weakest of the three parties in charge, the easiest to manipulate, that party is crippled beyond any capability of resisting him. Luskan would have been a gold mine for him for decades if the ravages of the spellplague hadn't hastened its decline. He probably thought it ended better than he could have possibly hoped.

And yes, I am saying that him intentionally ruining the lives and killing thousands of people outweighs the moral scale of being compasionate to a handfull of others, especially considering that a few of those others are as bad as he is. There's nothing about being evil that says you can't care for or be compassionate towards others within your circle. Asmodeus loves his daughter & loved his consort, but that doesn't change the fact he's one of the greatest forces of evil to exist.

"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress

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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

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3747 Posts

Posted - 02 May 2011 :  04:11:31  Show Profile  Click to see Alystra Illianniis's MSN Messenger address Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message
Where do you get that idea from? Granted, it's been a while since I read TPK, but I would not consider the loss of that many lives and that much destruction a success for ANYONE. For Jarlaxle to do any business there, there would actually have to be people to do business WITH. How could he do that with so many of them dead? Pardon my saying so, but exactly how did that HELP him? He may have ended up with the most easily manipulated group in charge, but at the expense of a large portion of his business. That doesn't strike me as a "success" at all. More like a LOOSING proposition, even without the Spellplague!

The idea that his actions dealing with a few people causing the deaths of so many others- INDIRECTLY- makes him inherently evil is just as much a fallacy as thinking that caring for a few people makes him "good". And for the record Jarlaxle did NOT intentionally kill all those people himself. They died because of a WAR. Yes, he was partly responsible for starting the conflict, but there are plenty of people who die in wars elsewhere in the Realms without the people who start them being evil. That's like saying Azoun is evil for going to war with the Zhents, or that the Simbul is evil for fighting a war with Thay. Yes, people die in wars, and yes, he helped to start one, (still not convinced he had explicit intentions of it going that far) but that in itself is not evidence of his being "evil" by any means.

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Azuth
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Posted - 02 May 2011 :  05:18:09  Show Profile  Visit Azuth's Homepage Send Azuth a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

Where do you get that idea from? Granted, it's been a while since I read TPK, but I would not consider the loss of that many lives and that much destruction a success for ANYONE. For Jarlaxle to do any business there, there would actually have to be people to do business WITH. How could he do that with so many of them dead? Pardon my saying so, but exactly how did that HELP him? He may have ended up with the most easily manipulated group in charge, but at the expense of a large portion of his business. That doesn't strike me as a "success" at all. More like a LOSING proposition, even without the Spellplague!

The idea that his actions dealing with a few people causing the deaths of so many others- INDIRECTLY- makes him inherently evil is just as much a fallacy as thinking that caring for a few people makes him "good". And for the record Jarlaxle did NOT intentionally kill all those people himself. They died because of a WAR. Yes, he was partly responsible for starting the conflict, but there are plenty of people who die in wars elsewhere in the Realms without the people who start them being evil. That's like saying Azoun is evil for going to war with the Zhents, or that the Simbul is evil for fighting a war with Thay. Yes, people die in wars, and yes, he helped to start one, (still not convinced he had explicit intentions of it going that far) but that in itself is not evidence of his being "evil" by any means.



While I hate to move into "real world" discussion, it is important to note that Bob Salvatore created Jarlaxle as a complex character to frustrate and inspire Drizzt. Where Entreri was his match with respect to fighting, Jarlaxle is really Drizzt's equal in almost all aspects of life; some sympathetic, and some in opposition to Drizzt's outlook on the world. Is Drizzt Chaotic Good? Is he Lawful Good? Drizzt is really complex, and moves through the various spectrums of "good" as he matures. Similarly, Jarlaxle transcends the "evil" spectrum moving toward and away from "neutral." Sometimes, Jarlaxle is very chaotic, othertimes he's more neutral. He's seldom lawful; that much is certain.
Alystra makes a good point about Azoun and the Simbul, one with which I must agree. I suspect that most of House Baerne (Jarlaxle aside) views Drizzt as evil and against the mandate of Lolth. I suspect also that Lolth views Drizzt and Jarlaxle as fantastic agents of hers fomenting chaos amongst the world, but especially the drow. Unwitting pawns and all that...
Jarlaxle isn't one to audibly admit to mistakes, so I don't know if he would ever come to that conclusion. He'd probably think "that could have turned out better."

Azuth, the First Magister
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
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Posted - 02 May 2011 :  05:42:41  Show Profile  Click to see Alystra Illianniis's MSN Messenger address Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message
I agree, Azuth. The debacle in Luskan would have been a pyhrric victory for him, at best. And Jarlaxle has been all over the alignment spectrum at one point or another, but seems to swing most often into CN. Even Drizzt has his "evil" moments, after all. (Thinking specifically of his suggestion to cut off Belwar's hands and send him back "as a message" to his fellow svirfneblin. While he did it to save Belwar's life, it is still an "evil" act, which is not so different from what Jarlaxle did in Luskan. Thus proving that even "evil" acts can have good intentions behind them. As they say, "the road to hell", and all that....)

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Azuth
Senior Scribe

USA
402 Posts

Posted - 02 May 2011 :  05:49:39  Show Profile  Visit Azuth's Homepage Send Azuth a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

I agree, Azuth. The debacle in Luskan would have been a pyhrric victory for him, at best. And Jarlaxle has been all over the alignment spectrum at one point or another, but seems to swing most often into CN. Even Drizzt has his "evil" moments, after all. (Thinking specifically of his suggestion to cut off Belwar's hands and send him back "as a message" to his fellow svirfneblin. While he did it to save Belwar's life, it is still an "evil" act, which is not so different from what Jarlaxle did in Luskan. Thus proving that even "evil" acts can have good intentions behind them. As they say, "the road to hell", and all that....)



Agreed. CN serves him best on paper, but I think that trying to "type" him is ultimately an exercise in futility. Jarlaxle was designed to be an enigma, and he continues to do that very well.

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ChieftainTwilight
Learned Scribe

171 Posts

Posted - 02 May 2011 :  06:58:38  Show Profile  Send ChieftainTwilight a Yahoo! Message Send ChieftainTwilight a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

I agree, Azuth. The debacle in Luskan would have been a pyhrric victory for him, at best. And Jarlaxle has been all over the alignment spectrum at one point or another, but seems to swing most often into CN. Even Drizzt has his "evil" moments, after all. (Thinking specifically of his suggestion to cut off Belwar's hands and send him back "as a message" to his fellow svirfneblin. While he did it to save Belwar's life, it is still an "evil" act, which is not so different from what Jarlaxle did in Luskan. Thus proving that even "evil" acts can have good intentions behind them. As they say, "the road to hell", and all that....)



ehh... I could argue that the fact that thwat was the only way Drizzt could think of to save Belwar's life (and he came up with it on the fly in the heat of the drama) COMPLETELY outways any Evil it was meant to appear like in front of his brother Dinin

and a heart can only break so many times
and I've been to hell and back so many times
and I've seen folks walk away so many times
but just like anyone else I gotta stand up by myself
and a heart can only break so many times
a heart can only break so many times
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Alystra Illianniis
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Posted - 02 May 2011 :  19:54:10  Show Profile  Click to see Alystra Illianniis's MSN Messenger address Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message
I'm curios- why do you base his alignment on one book? One book, or more specifically the actions taken at one point in time- does not an alignment make. Granted his dealings in it were pretty shady, but I'd hesitate to call it evil based simply on the outcome. And his actions in the book before and after seem to balance it out, especiially in Road of the Patriarchs, where he was doing "good deeds" in Damaara, working as a scout and monster-slayer for the local army, helping the people there, and guiding (er, amnipulating/influencing) Entreri into becoming a more "good" and decent person. And he was already pulling his forces out of Luskan even before the Spellplague, as has already been noted elsewhere. Clearly, he did not feel it was the resounding success you imply.

It seems to me that his alignment could best be described as "chaotic pragmatic". He is willing to compromise to get the best of a situation, has no qualms about taking advantage of opportunities that come his way- be they good or evil in nature- and still manages to keep a sense of personal ethics and honor. He helps people when it suits him, sometimes even when there's no direct benefit to him, but is willing to turn a blind eye to suffering when the situation is no longer profitable. That's not evil, it's just insensitive. He made a HUGE mistake in Gauntlegrym, but he owned up to it and took steps to make things right, both out of guilt and a sense of anger at being duped. Either way, he was working in the cause of good to re-imprison the primordial- never mind his intentions in all of those instances. And if meddling in the affairs of others makes one evil, then Elminster and Khelban are guilty, as well.....

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BEAST
Master of Realmslore

USA
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Posted - 02 May 2011 :  21:57:57  Show Profile  Visit BEAST's Homepage Send BEAST a Private Message
The law distinguishes between intentional "murder" and "reckless indifference homicide". It's possible that Jar regularly displays indifference as to who dies from his actions. But it's still pretty evil, and the doer is expected to take responsibility for his actions.

"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3747 Posts

Posted - 03 May 2011 :  00:06:30  Show Profile  Click to see Alystra Illianniis's MSN Messenger address Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message
In RL, yes. Not always so in the Realms. And is it still the responsibility of the person who instigated the conflict when it was others who did the killing? That's a whole grey area, methinks. In the RW, the lawyers would have a field day with that. To say nothing of PROVING he caused it.

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Azuth
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Posted - 03 May 2011 :  01:16:21  Show Profile  Visit Azuth's Homepage Send Azuth a Private Message

Jarlaxle's alignment is really "shifts as necessary to fit the plot." As has been discussed/argued in other topics, authors are not compelled to follow the game rules. Bob Salvatore could make Jarlaxle a paladin of Torm in his next book if he so chose. I believe that Jarlaxle is chaotic without question. But, with respect to alignment, he's more neutral on both the Law/Chaos and the Good/Evil spectrum. He's lawful when it suits his needs, and chaotic when it seems appropriate. He does "good" acts when they benefit him, and evil actions for the same reason. The ultimate statement about Jarlaxle is that he is unpredictable in a given situation, which is why he's such an interesting character. Bob could easily write many books about Jarlaxle and I suspect they'd be best-sellers on their own. But, on that note, Ed could write a book on Lhaeo, or on just Syluné, and it would be equally good. If we were able to discern how a character will always react as readers, then the authors would not be good authors. While I find this discussion interesting, we can never truly answer this question because we do not own the rights to the character. If Jarlaxle killed a random patrol of drow warriors, some would say his actions were good, others would say his actions were chaotic and self-serving, and still others would say that he was killing his own kind and thus evil. The thread of this thread is that we can point to various situations where Jarlaxle acted a certain way and say "because of example A, he's of alignment X." Jarlaxle is a character in a novel, and I'm glad that I can't really answer the question of his alignment; he's much more interesting that way.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 03 May 2011 :  01:25:47  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message
Here's something that seems to be overlooked in this discussion: just because someone is evil, it doesn't mean they can't care about someone, or that they can't commit good deeds from time to time. No one is evil 24/7 (or 24/10, in the Realms).

I see examples quoted here of good actions, and I see examples of evil actions. And I don't see that the former is outweighing the latter. Evil isn't always, and I think that's what we're seeing here.

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Azuth
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Posted - 03 May 2011 :  02:47:30  Show Profile  Visit Azuth's Homepage Send Azuth a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Here's something that seems to be overlooked in this discussion: just because someone is evil, it doesn't mean they can't care about someone, or that they can't commit good deeds from time to time. No one is evil 24/7 (or 24/10, in the Realms).

I see examples quoted here of good actions, and I see examples of evil actions. And I don't see that the former is outweighing the latter. Evil isn't always, and I think that's what we're seeing here.



Indeed not, but I believe it is for this reason that Gary created the "Neutral" aspect of the spectrum. The alignment is a person's motivation in life. I still think that of all the alignments, CN fits Jarlaxle the best, but I also believe his actions fit better with other alignments periodically.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 03 May 2011 :  05:39:47  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Azuth

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Here's something that seems to be overlooked in this discussion: just because someone is evil, it doesn't mean they can't care about someone, or that they can't commit good deeds from time to time. No one is evil 24/7 (or 24/10, in the Realms).

I see examples quoted here of good actions, and I see examples of evil actions. And I don't see that the former is outweighing the latter. Evil isn't always, and I think that's what we're seeing here.



Indeed not, but I believe it is for this reason that Gary created the "Neutral" aspect of the spectrum. The alignment is a person's motivation in life. I still think that of all the alignments, CN fits Jarlaxle the best, but I also believe his actions fit better with other alignments periodically.




Neutral is a good alignment... But I'm just saying: if someone's hobby is drop-kicking small furry animals all day long, but he stops to help a little old lady across the street, his helping the little old lady doesn't mean he's a good guy.

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_Jarlaxle_
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Posted - 03 May 2011 :  09:45:05  Show Profile Send _Jarlaxle_ a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

In RL, yes. Not always so in the Realms. And is it still the responsibility of the person who instigated the conflict when it was others who did the killing? That's a whole grey area, methinks. In the RW, the lawyers would have a field day with that. To say nothing of PROVING he caused it.


morality or alingment in this case has nothing to do with law
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 03 May 2011 :  21:24:16  Show Profile  Visit BEAST's Homepage Send BEAST a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

In RL, yes. Not always so in the Realms. And is it still the responsibility of the person who instigated the conflict when it was others who did the killing? That's a whole grey area, methinks. In the RW, the lawyers would have a field day with that. To say nothing of PROVING he caused it.

It's his moral responsibility, whether a legal sage could prove it in a tribunal or not.

And his moral nature is part and parcel of what a discussion of what his alignment is all about.

quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_

morality or alingment in this case has nothing to do with law

Oh, but I beg to differ. Laws are intended to preserve a desired moral order within a society, and it is the moral alignment of a prominent character that we are examining here. We can split hairs over terminology, either in the Real World or our fave fantasy one, but the morality seems to remain the same.

And Jarlaxle's handing over of the reigns of Luskan to the High Captains, with their disregard for the safety of the Luskar people, would seem to make him morally responsible for the consequences of the High Captains', and therefore his own, actions. He displayed reckless disregard there, and many people suffered, though he shrugged it off and tsk-tsked it away with a wink and as gentlemanly a tone as he could manage, in the end.

Then, neither a century later, he claims to be concerned for the safety of the Luskar people when a volcano threatens.

Is his moral nature really different now? Or does he simply not see a way to profit by allying himself with this particular antagonist, thereby allowing him to feel empathy with the potential victims this time around?



quote:
Originally posted by Azuth


Jarlaxle's alignment is really "shifts as necessary to fit the plot." [...] I believe that Jarlaxle is chaotic without question. But, with respect to alignment, he's more neutral on both the Law/Chaos and the Good/Evil spectrum. He's lawful when it suits his needs, and chaotic when it seems appropriate. He does "good" acts when they benefit him, and evil actions for the same reason.


If he does something lawful or good when it suits his needs or it benefits him, that is not "Good" per the D&D alignment system, as I understand it. If he is guided by his own well-being, versus that of others, then that is not Good. It doesn't matter about the end result--it's the intent that dictates.

That is why I pointed out that Jar seemed to be truly concerned for others' well-being in TGK. It didn't make him money, and it didn't contribute to his survival from the threat of the dracolich. It seemed to simply arise from empathy with others.

Alas, that is still an all-too-rare emotion for our favorite drow merc.

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I see examples quoted here of good actions, and I see examples of evil actions. And I don't see that the former is outweighing the latter. Evil isn't always, and I think that's what we're seeing here.


It's not just the result of the actions that we should be examining, but also, to the extent possible from the texts, the intent of those actions.

Seen in that light, Jar has seemed to fundamentally change in his moral nature over some of the more recent books. It seems like more has happened than for a Chaotic or Evil guy to merely help some people out for his own selfish ends.

But it hasn't stuck.

"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
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<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works">
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Alystra Illianniis
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USA
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Posted - 04 May 2011 :  00:19:40  Show Profile  Click to see Alystra Illianniis's MSN Messenger address Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message
"Alas, that is still an all-too-rare emotion for our favorite drow merc." Quote from BEAST.

And yet it's becoming more common every day. And I'd like to point out that his actions are just as important as the intent. One really can't sparate the two, anyway. Regardless of the intentions, a good deed is STILL a good deed. No one ever questions the intentions of a Boy Scout- or Superman for that matter. Does it really matter if he's just trying to get that merit badge, or feels obliged to keep up a positive image, even if he'd really rather just leave the darn cat in the tree, or doesn't feel like waiting for that little 80-year-old lady with the walker to cross the frickin street? Not really. And there's a name for what Jarlaxle has done of late- it's called the Law of Unintended Consequences. A person does thing A, hoping for outcome B, but gets C and D instead. When $*it went south in Luscan, that's sort of what happened. Same thing in Gauntlegrym nearly a century later. While a truly good and decent person might own up and try to take responsibility for thier actions, Jarlaxle does what most folks would do- shrug, say "$*it happens", and try to pick up the pieces and move on. The difference is that the second time, he actually DID try to own up. And I'd also note that the events of Ghost King were basically his fault, too- but NO ONE would have seen that coming. How was he to know that using Hephaestus' breath to destroy Crenshinibon was going to create something even worse? More to the point, something that was REALLY TICKED at him?! Yet no one calls that an evil act..... (Especially since it happened while trying to destroy an EVIL artifact.)



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AleksanderTheGreat
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Posted - 04 May 2011 :  00:58:45  Show Profile Send AleksanderTheGreat a Private Message
I would say neutral evil. Yep. That's Jarlaxle alright.

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Alystra Illianniis
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Posted - 04 May 2011 :  01:07:44  Show Profile  Click to see Alystra Illianniis's MSN Messenger address Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message
I prefer the Paladium alignment axis, myself. The descripions are so much more accurate in that system.

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

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_Jarlaxle_
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Posted - 04 May 2011 :  08:26:30  Show Profile Send _Jarlaxle_ a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST

Oh, but I beg to differ. Laws are intended to preserve a desired moral order within a society, and it is the moral alignment of a prominent character that we are examining here. We can split hairs over terminology, either in the Real World or our fave fantasy one, but the morality seems to remain the same.


Yes but that has nothing to do with the D&D alignment system for good vs. evil. Because if the alignment system would take in account diffrent moralities for diffrent societies than the normal orc or goblin would have a good alignment too because within their society they act totally to their moral code.
Law is only considered for the lawfull vs. chaotic part but the good vs. evil part has some kind of global view with our RL good guy type in mind.

But I agree with you thats the intension which matters and with that Jarlaxle is no good or neutral person.

Edit: One more note because I think many people get this wrong. Your are not neutral when you are doing evil and good things because one can't outweight the other. If you are doing evil things regually you are evil no matter what you are doing else. If you do neither good or evil things than you are neutral and if you are doing mostly good things and no or almost no evil things you are good.
I allways get the impression that many people see neutral as "I can do what I want" but that is evil. In my opinion neutral is by far the hardest alignment to be instead of a free card.

Edited by - _Jarlaxle_ on 04 May 2011 08:33:31
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 04 May 2011 :  14:15:51  Show Profile  Visit Chosen of Asmodeus's Homepage Send Chosen of Asmodeus a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

Where do you get that idea from? Granted, it's been a while since I read TPK, but I would not consider the loss of that many lives and that much destruction a success for ANYONE. For Jarlaxle to do any business there, there would actually have to be people to do business WITH. How could he do that with so many of them dead? Pardon my saying so, but exactly how did that HELP him? He may have ended up with the most easily manipulated group in charge, but at the expense of a large portion of his business. That doesn't strike me as a "success" at all. More like a LOOSING proposition, even without the Spellplague!

The idea that his actions dealing with a few people causing the deaths of so many others- INDIRECTLY- makes him inherently evil is just as much a fallacy as thinking that caring for a few people makes him "good". And for the record Jarlaxle did NOT intentionally kill all those people himself. They died because of a WAR. Yes, he was partly responsible for starting the conflict, but there are plenty of people who die in wars elsewhere in the Realms without the people who start them being evil. That's like saying Azoun is evil for going to war with the Zhents, or that the Simbul is evil for fighting a war with Thay. Yes, people die in wars, and yes, he helped to start one, (still not convinced he had explicit intentions of it going that far) but that in itself is not evidence of his being "evil" by any means.



He never had any intention of selling to the people of Luskan. These were dockhands and sailors that were dying; people who couldn't afford the goods he was looking to sell if they saved their whole lives. He was looking to use Luskan as a gateway to sell to the wider surface. He was marketing valuable underdark magic items; the poor of Luskan who were used as cannon fodder in a noble's quest for glory were never his target consumers.

More over, there are different levels of indirect involvement. Much to Wooly's annoyance I'm going to bring another real life example into this; Charles Manson never killed anyone in his life, and was given the death sentence(commuted to life in prison) for murder. Why? Because he manipulated others into killing for him. Jarlaxle set two people up to go to war with one another; one person with thousands of people at his command and another person with hundreds — who could shoot fire balls out of their hands. The amount of lives that would have been lost was going to be huge anyway. He knew neither side would back down without a fight. The fact that it was thousands instead of hundreds doesn't exactly make the crime less heinous.

"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress

Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.

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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 04 May 2011 :  14:22:00  Show Profile  Visit Chosen of Asmodeus's Homepage Send Chosen of Asmodeus a Private Message
Something about _Jarlaxle_'s opinion on alignment interests me; it implies the superiority of evil over good as one's evil actions carry more weight.

"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress

Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.

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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe

Germany
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Posted - 04 May 2011 :  15:23:44  Show Profile Send _Jarlaxle_ a Private Message
Yes beause the other way would be that if you do "equaly" good things as evil things you are not evil and thats just not true. You can't murder someone and than save someone elses life the next day and everything is fine.
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 04 May 2011 :  15:26:55  Show Profile  Visit Chosen of Asmodeus's Homepage Send Chosen of Asmodeus a Private Message
More than equality, though. A doctor who saves hundreds of lives doesn't get a pass on a single murder.

"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress

Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.

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ChieftainTwilight
Learned Scribe

171 Posts

Posted - 04 May 2011 :  18:28:35  Show Profile  Send ChieftainTwilight a Yahoo! Message Send ChieftainTwilight a Private Message
meh. I can't finish reading all this.

but I will leave a parting note.

Alignment consists of two things; one part Action and one part Motivation. Alignment is determined by what someone does and why they do it.

furthermore, it must be remembered that consistency is key. someone doesn't shift their alignment completely in isolated instances. that's just the display of an exception or change of pace. it is temporary, fleeting even, and does not constitute an Alignment change. if someone is Evil consistently with the exception of giving charity out of he goodness of his heart last tuesday, and reporting a burglary of a random neighbor he's never talked to before last month, it doesn't mean that he was Good on those two days, his alignment was Evil the whol etime.

by the same token, it works in reverse. if an esteemed hero has had a bad week and decided to frame an innocent random person for a heinous crime just to relieve some stress, it doesn't make him evil. in fact, he's almost definitely gonna come clean eventually, or at least try to make up for it.

now, on the other hand, if someone has been leaning towards a new alignment in a consistent manner, constantly or at least oftentimes displaying a new set of behaviors and/or perspectives, his Alignment should probably start to slowly shift towards that new Alignment. it should be a slow process, probably as much as several Months of game time from one step to the next. and by that I mean from Chaotic Evil to Chaotic Neutral. or from Chaotic Neutral to Chaotic Good. or Chaotic Good to Neutral Good.

see my point?

so whatever turn the debate has gone now, just keep that in mind.

and a heart can only break so many times
and I've been to hell and back so many times
and I've seen folks walk away so many times
but just like anyone else I gotta stand up by myself
and a heart can only break so many times
a heart can only break so many times
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Azuth
Senior Scribe

USA
402 Posts

Posted - 04 May 2011 :  19:09:09  Show Profile  Visit Azuth's Homepage Send Azuth a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Neutral is a good alignment... But I'm just saying: if someone's hobby is drop-kicking small furry animals all day long, but he stops to help a little old lady across the street, his helping the little old lady doesn't mean he's a good guy.




True: but how do you think the little old lady would describe him if someone asked her about his "alignment?"

Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells

The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken.
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