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Rajorke
Acolyte
USA
15 Posts |
 Posted - 30 Apr 2005 : 06:34:20
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i was just reading the "Bane vs. Cyric" scroll that was closed by Alaundo, though i agree that versus scrolls are pointless and add little the library it did bring the interesting topic of religious wars in Faerun.
I was wondering what everyone thought about there being more conflicts between the establishments of the churches that are so prominent in the realms, and how we could incorperate such into games and stories.
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"I see the dark universe yawning" -H.P. Lovecraft "Nemesis" |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2005 : 06:49:06
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This is a good point...
We always read about hordes of orcs and other types of monsters, conflicts between organizations (Zhentarim vs. Harpers) or power-hungry archmages stealing artifacts, but we never seem to have large conflicts dealing with religion. Even in the Priest Series, it doesn't seem to involve much of an "interaction" with other faithes. I find this all quite a bit strange as gods play such a large role in the Realms and all the gods have enemies... |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2005 : 06:53:06
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
We always read about hordes of orcs and other types of monsters, conflicts between organizations (Zhentarim vs. Harpers) or power-hungry archmages stealing artifacts, but we never seem to have large conflicts dealing with religion. Even in the Priest Series, it doesn't seem to involve much of an "interaction" with other faithes. I find this all quite a bit strange as gods play such a large role in the Realms and all the gods have enemies...
It makes this scribe wonder if for some reason past and present novel departments believe a novel or series that focused on religious wars might offend certain people. Regardless, I'd like to see less of a novel featuring a Chosen of a certain deity or the deity him/herself and more stories involving religious warfare. |
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Rajorke
Acolyte
USA
15 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2005 : 06:54:25
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| not only that but the books mention on several occasions that the different faiths have conflicts of interest (a point that is pretty obvious) and even the violent faiths don't go into open warfare. This doesn't make sense if you compare it to how religions deal with one another in the real world, and we all know that Faerun has plenty of insane religious zealots... <cough> Fzoul <cough>... in power that have a vested interest in going to war with other religious sects, namely here the "church" of cyric |
"I see the dark universe yawning" -H.P. Lovecraft "Nemesis" |
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5692 Posts |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2005 : 12:42:30
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This 'religious friction' aspect of the Realms was one of the chief directions Steven Schend was heading in during his tenure at WotC. The Zhentarim after C&D were supposed to be a more religion-driven organisation with internal friction between the churches of Xvim (now Bane I guess) and Cyric.
The 'Demonlands' project that never got off the ground (although UE can be considered something of an offshoot of this planned product) would likely have also featured religion (in this case that of the Triad) as a focal point.
There is definitely still scope in the Realms for such religion-based conflict and rivalry but what holds it back is the fact that there are relatively few religion-based nations or organisations to pit against one another in contrast to the number of non-religion based groups.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2005 : 12:59:19
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
The Zhentarim after C&D were supposed to be a more religion-driven organisation with internal friction between the churches of Xvim (now Bane I guess) and Cyric.
I think that I would have preferred that, to what the Black Network are now. The Zhentarim of today, as an organisation in the modern Realms, seem to adequately fill the role as the "Generic Evil Organisation".
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Rajorke
Acolyte
USA
15 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2005 : 20:21:15
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| this may be a long shot, but it could possibly come about as an agreement by the churches of say Tyr Ilmater Torm and possibly Sune to band together in some way to deal with the religious and political tyranny of a nation like Mulhorand and fight on the side of Unther to free from Mulhorandi rule. Like I said this is a long shot but it seems like a situation that could be considered a massive holy war in the realms that doesn't involve the Zhentarim. Many established nations have strong ties with those dieties' churches so they could back the churchs' ambitions to fight the war... i'm just throwing this out there |
"I see the dark universe yawning" -H.P. Lovecraft "Nemesis" |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2005 : 08:46:08
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| I think she may join if the situation is an pressing matter. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2005 : 09:52:35
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She may support Torm in such a godly coalition, perhaps because she is still smitten by his devotion to noble principles, but I do not think she would willingly join or become an active participate nor would she recommend such actions from her worshippers.
Sune is about beauty and love.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2005 : 10:14:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Rajorke
this may be a long shot, but it could possibly come about as an agreement by the churches of say Tyr Ilmater Torm and possibly Sune to band together in some way to deal with the religious and political tyranny of a nation like Mulhorand and fight on the side of Unther to free from Mulhorandi rule. Like I said this is a long shot but it seems like a situation that could be considered a massive holy war in the realms that doesn't involve the Zhentarim. Many established nations have strong ties with those dieties' churches so they could back the churchs' ambitions to fight the war... i'm just throwing this out there
Id say the crusade would have to be against one of Sunes enemies for her to join a crusade, she might join a crusade against Bane (As hes the god of Hate) or Talona (Goddess of disease and pestilence) as both those gods are diametricly oppossed to Sunes portfolios |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2005 : 10:40:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Id say the crusade would have to be against one of Sunes enemies for her to join a crusade, she might join a crusade against Bane (As hes the god of Hate) or Talona (Goddess of disease and pestilence) as both those gods are diametricly oppossed to Sunes portfolios
I think the faithful of Talona would be the more likely target for the "crusading" church of Sune. To some, disease is seen as the death of beauty, and Sune may simply see any threat of disease to a thing or place of beauty as justification enough to strike.
Of course, one aspect we must consider about the Sunites is that the clergy itself is said to be rather loose and not very organised. To even begin to suggest that they conduct military action against another church would require some significant preparation, organisation, and order on a scale that neither the church, nor Sune herself, are that familiar with.
Perhaps she could call on Torm to help her organise her faithful, and prepare them for action against Talona and her church.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2005 : 11:02:30
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| I imagine Sunes paladins would have been more organised |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Rudar Dimble
Learned Scribe
131 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2005 : 11:11:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
I imagine Sunes paladins would have been more organised
They've got plenty of time to do so... |
Jesus saves... and takes ½ damage |
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Rhezarnos
Learned Scribe
![]()
Malaysia
131 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2005 : 12:42:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Rudar Dimble
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
I imagine Sunes paladins would have been more organised
They've got plenty of time to do so...
Yea... half an hour for shining their helms, an hour grooming themselves, another hour grooming their steeds, etc. |
Playing a winged dwarf with acrophobia is fun. |
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Krafus
Learned Scribe
246 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2005 : 14:06:45
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In 2e Faiths and Avatars, in the section about Bane, there is the following (p. 39):
quote:
"Imperceptor Kabarrath Telthaug styled himself Dread Imperceptor in the days before the Time of Troubles, asserting his own independence of the standard Banite hierarchy. It is not hard to understand why: He commands over 700 Banite priests of rank, another 1,000 lesser clergy members, and a well-equipped, harshly disciplined army of loyal troops armed with many items of minor magic, and well practiced in slaughter. This army has been force-marched to ravage cities in Chessenta time and time again only to pull back when the exercises are over.
"The temple is named for its only relic, an animated black cloak once worn by Bane himself that became a sentient monster that envelops people from time to time and sucks them dry of all blood. The Black Lord's Cloak temple complex has grown into a vast palace where Kabarrath keeps the wealth of subject Threskel and its fleet of merchant and fishing vessels. [...]
"With the destruction of the Untheric pantheon, Imperceptor Kabarrath perceives a power vacuum in which he can seize control of that ancient nation. It is unclear which deity supports this powerful temple and still maintains its nominal dedication to Bane in the aftermath of the Time of Troubles. The incipient madness which has touched Kabarrath in recent years suggests the hand of Cyric, but the recent change in battle color in the army from red and black to green and black suggests that of Xvim."
IIRC, this force hasn't been mentioned in subsequent sourcebooks mentioning Xvim/Bane. Thus, likely we have here a powerful Cyricist army that could contest Mulhorand's hold over Unther and provide a holy war. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2005 : 16:23:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Rhezarnos
quote:
Originally posted by Rudar Dimble
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
I imagine Sunes paladins would have been more organised
They've got plenty of time to do so...
Yea... half an hour for shining their helms, an hour grooming themselves, another hour grooming their steeds, etc.
Sounds like an episode of Queer Eye for the Straight Guy. From now on, the promos for that show will never be viewed in the same light by this scribe. |
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LordAnki
Seeker
USA
73 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2005 : 16:58:02
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| Okay I am not there on reading the books yet but isnt War of hte Spiderqueen a religious war? |
Tip of the Month: don't drink the dirty water. You know what i'm talking about if you know what i mean. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2005 : 17:21:16
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quote:
Originally posted by LordAnki
Okay I am not there on reading the books yet but isnt War of hte Spiderqueen a religious war?
Depends on how you view/define a religious war. If you view such a war as being started by a deity's actions then yes, WOTSQ is a religious war. I define religious wars as having large conflict between different faiths that takes place in Faerun. That's why I don't view the series as a religious war. |
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LordAnki
Seeker
USA
73 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2005 : 17:47:29
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| oh okay thanks Sirius. I was just guessing that it would be., I know not many things about WOTSQ as I have not gotten that far in the books. My stepbro's friends are presenting the books to me starting with Dark Elf Trilogy and I am on Icewind Dale trilogy now. |
Tip of the Month: don't drink the dirty water. You know what i'm talking about if you know what i mean. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2005 : 17:58:59
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quote:
Originally posted by LordAnki
oh okay thanks Sirius. I was just guessing that it would be., I know not many things about WOTSQ as I have not gotten that far in the books. My stepbro's friends are presenting the books to me starting with Dark Elf Trilogy and I am on Icewind Dale trilogy now.
I'm sure opinions will vary on the WOTSQ constituting a religious war. I hope you enjoy the novels. Be sure to share your thoughts at Candlekeep once you are done with them. |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2005 : 00:19:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Krafus
IIRC, this force hasn't been mentioned in subsequent sourcebooks mentioning Xvim/Bane. Thus, likely we have here a powerful Cyricist army that could contest Mulhorand's hold over Unther and provide a holy war.
The Church in Mourktar never converted to Cyric. So the army belongs to Bane |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2005 : 00:52:36
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| Other than the "religious war" happening between Cyric and Bane, I'm surprised that there's no other big conflicts happening between other deities. One that I would expect to occur a long time ago would be Bane and Torm. After all, Torm killed Bane during ToT and I'm sure the God of Strife is still angry over that. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2005 : 01:00:38
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Other than the "religious war" happening between Cyric and Bane, I'm surprised that there's no other big conflicts happening between other deities. One that I would expect to occur a long time ago would be Bane and Torm. After all, Torm killed Bane during ToT and I'm sure the God of Strife is still angry over that.
Lol WOTC are never going to live that stuff up down
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“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2005 : 01:38:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
quote:
Originally posted by Krafus
IIRC, this force hasn't been mentioned in subsequent sourcebooks mentioning Xvim/Bane. Thus, likely we have here a powerful Cyricist army that could contest Mulhorand's hold over Unther and provide a holy war.
The Church in Mourktar never converted to Cyric. So the army belongs to Bane
Where was that reference taken from?
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2005 : 02:00:59
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Its more connecting the dots
Eric Boyd put Banes church in Mourktar in F&A and wrote that they had yet to side which way they where going to go, Cyric or Xvim up until then they'd remained loyal to Bane. The piece of 3ed evidence that makes me think they stuck with Bane is in the FRC
In 3ed Mourktar is considered to be part of "Free Unther"
Check out the entry for Unther on page 186 of the FRC, Bane is listed as one of th major deities for the region, this is further backed up in PGTF on page 15 Unther has Bane listed as a favoured deity. Im pretty sure Banes church in Mourktar is the only place he had influence in the old Empires region
In addition I asked EricB after LEOF came out if Banes church in Mourktar had been using the Servant of the Fallen feat and he said yes |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
Edited by - Dargoth on 02 May 2005 02:09:42 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2005 : 02:15:18
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There have been religious wars and on going, however more like the 100 /years war. A series of battles. A temple captured and turned to another deity or just distroyed. The killing of Clerics and Paladins of one faith because they were of that faith.
A war being a series of battles until a peace is achieved has been going on for most if not all the history of Forgotten Realms. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Rajorke
Acolyte
USA
15 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2005 : 04:51:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
There have been religious wars and on going, however more like the 100 /years war. A series of battles. A temple captured and turned to another deity or just distroyed. The killing of Clerics and Paladins of one faith because they were of that faith.
A war being a series of battles until a peace is achieved has been going on for most if not all the history of Forgotten Realms.
true but i was referring to larger scale events where massive armies square off as one religion attempts to completely annihilate another religion |
"I see the dark universe yawning" -H.P. Lovecraft "Nemesis" |
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Rudar Dimble
Learned Scribe
131 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2005 : 05:37:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Rajorke
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
There have been religious wars and on going, however more like the 100 /years war. A series of battles. A temple captured and turned to another deity or just distroyed. The killing of Clerics and Paladins of one faith because they were of that faith.
A war being a series of battles until a peace is achieved has been going on for most if not all the history of Forgotten Realms.
true but i was referring to larger scale events where massive armies square off as one religion attempts to completely annihilate another religion
Not that I can think off. There haven't been many realy incredible large scale battles in the FR lately. May be WotSQ, but I've only played the module City of the Spider Queen ,so I can't say for sure. |
Jesus saves... and takes ½ damage |
Edited by - Rudar Dimble on 02 May 2005 05:37:42 |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2005 : 05:40:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Rudar Dimble
quote:
Originally posted by Rajorke
true but i was referring to larger scale events where massive armies square off as one religion attempts to completely annihilate another religion
Not that I can think off. There haven't been many realy incredible large scale battles in the FR lately. May be WotSQ, but I've only played the module City of the Spider Queen ,so I can't say for sure.
No, the WOTSQ series did not meet the qualifications that Rajorke outlined. |
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Religious wars in Faerun
