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Shadovar
Senior Scribe

785 Posts

Posted - 26 Apr 2005 :  12:35:43  Show Profile  Visit Shadovar's Homepage Send Shadovar a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
A warmest Greetings to all forum members! Well I would like to consult the forum members on the phaerimm and their origins. I have well heard rumors that these horrible creatures are descended from Ioroulhaamh, the first and final significant creation of an Imaskari Archwizard named Tkinnolihr. Which Ioroulhaamh was slain by the combined might of the best Archwizards, which the spellbattle freed the other phaerimm, who escaped to certain caverns under the fledgling human nation of Netheril. Is that true or there is some other information to confirm their origins? And is it true the phaerimm are seeking the Amulet of Silver and the The Death Moon Orb?
Replies are very gladly welcomed and very appreciated by me. Thank you for replying and reading this topic.

We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend.

Edited by - Shadovar on 26 Apr 2005 12:39:04

Arivia
Great Reader

Canada
2879 Posts

Posted - 26 Apr 2005 :  17:22:17  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar

A warmest Greetings to all forum members! Well I would like to consult the forum members on the phaerimm and their origins. I have well heard rumors that these horrible creatures are descended from Ioroulhaamh, the first and final significant creation of an Imaskari Archwizard named Tkinnolihr. Which Ioroulhaamh was slain by the combined might of the best Archwizards, which the spellbattle freed the other phaerimm, who escaped to certain caverns under the fledgling human nation of Netheril. Is that true or there is some other information to confirm their origins? And is it true the phaerimm are seeking the Amulet of Silver and the The Death Moon Orb?
Replies are very gladly welcomed and very appreciated by me. Thank you for replying and reading this topic.



That can't be true, as Serpent Kingdoms places the phaerimm as having existed at -33,800 DR-far before the Imaskari settled the Raurin Plain in -8350 DR.
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Tanyn Midrain
Seeker

Sweden
27 Posts

Posted - 26 Apr 2005 :  19:45:14  Show Profile  Visit Tanyn Midrain's Homepage  Click to see Tanyn Midrain's MSN Messenger address Send Tanyn Midrain a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Underdark states on p 9 that the Imaskari did create the phaerimms, and were summarily destroyed by them.
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore

USA
1287 Posts

Posted - 27 Apr 2005 :  01:06:04  Show Profile  Visit Gray Richardson's Homepage Send Gray Richardson a Private Message  Reply with Quote
George Krashos speculated that the Phaerimms could be both very old dating back to at least -33800 DR, but also could have had a group of them created by the Imaskari.

The Imaskari were very skilled mages, no reason they could not have built their own Phaerimm.

It's also possible that the Phaerimm could have gone back in time somehow to fight the Sarrukh.
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
4883 Posts

Posted - 27 Apr 2005 :  02:01:53  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
"Serpent Kingdoms" makes it clear that phaerimm pre-dated the Imaskari empire and this is indirectly backed up by "Powers & Pantheons" (p.2) which notes the sequence in which races arrived on Toril.

"Underdark" (p.9) talks about phaerimm as the 'creation' of the Imaskari. On the face of it this appears to be a contradiction but it is easily fixed.

Noting how phaerimm reproduce (eggs in human hosts), I've always maintained that the Imaskari conducted their own phaerimm breeding program (ala the "Alien" film quadrilogy) and hence did create their 'own' phaerimm as powerful, enslaved servitor creatures.

Of course, these phaerimm may well have played a role in the 'slave rebellion' that overthrew the Imaskari empire or may in fact have been the servitors of only a small cabal of Imaskari who had turned away from the "artificer" thread of magic (i.e constucts) and moved into a more 'natural' form of breeding/species development.

Lots of scope here for creative DMs.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Adarin
Seeker

30 Posts

Posted - 28 Apr 2005 :  12:06:34  Show Profile  Visit Adarin's Homepage Send Adarin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Greetings, so can I inquire is it that the phaerimm were created before the time of Netheril Empire birth?

There will always be parting of ways which is never of your preference.
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
4883 Posts

Posted - 28 Apr 2005 :  15:02:49  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Adarin

Greetings, so can I inquire is it that the phaerimm were created before the time of Netheril Empire birth?



It is possible that some phaerimm were bred (created) by the Imaskari before the founding of Netheril. However the phaerimm existed in the Realms (they came from another world/plane it seems) long before both the founding of Netheril or Imaskar.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
1253 Posts

Posted - 29 Apr 2005 :  18:31:13  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My thinking on the origin of the phaerimm is that they are commonly experienced "endgame" for civilizations. In other words, a civilization with large numbers of arcane spellcasters skilled in the Art will inevitably stumble across the process of transforming themselves into phaerimm. Whether or not a civilization chooses to embrace such transformations wholesale depends a lot on external factors, such as the impending annihilation of the civilization. There may be something about the transformation that requires "everyone or no one" to go along with it. It may be true that the transformation seems to promise great power but comes with hidden costs.

At the present time, at least three such civilizations seem to have made the transformation: a predecessor or contemporary of Isstosseffifil, perhaps a rival sarrukh nation, the human sorcerors of Thaeravel, Land of Alabaster Towers, and the Imaskari. Thus there are three "origins of phaerimm", at least that we can guess at. Relevant references are found in Serpent Kingdoms, page 98, Lost Empires of Faerun, page 106, and Underdark, page 9, respectively.

If a whole new batch of phaerimm were to appear on the scene today, suitable candidates might include Thay, Halruaa, or Nimbral.

--Eric, only speculating, none of this is canon (obviously)

Edited to include greater clarity, proper spellings, and references.

--
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/

Edited by - ericlboyd on 29 Apr 2005 22:50:31
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Arivia
Great Reader

Canada
2879 Posts

Posted - 29 Apr 2005 :  21:06:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
the human sorcerors of the Land of Alabaster Towers (blanking on the spelling ... Th__)

Thaeravel.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31690 Posts

Posted - 30 Apr 2005 :  02:56:55  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd

If a whole new batch of phaerimm were to appear on the scene today, suitable candidates might include Thay, Halruaa, or Nimbral.
I think the most important consideration to make with regard to that is, which realm would see the use of a new batch of phaerimm as a means to attaining greater power and presence in Faerun.

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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore

USA
1287 Posts

Posted - 30 Apr 2005 :  09:04:06  Show Profile  Visit Gray Richardson's Homepage Send Gray Richardson a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So how do the Sharn fit into this? Given that the elves of Miyeritar transformed into sharn, are they another endgame form? Just another option when transcending? Or are the sharn specifically anti-phaerimm? Are the phaerimm and sharn just two sides of a coin--the light and dark side of transcendence? Or are there other transcendent forms for magically advanced races willing to take that next step?
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31690 Posts

Posted - 30 Apr 2005 :  12:11:40  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson

Are the phaerimm and sharn just two sides of a coin--the light and dark side of transcendence?
I do not think so. The sharn are playing their own game. With the increasing absence of most of the elder sharn, the younger generations are forced to find their own course through history.

Who can really know where they will focus their interests next. Or what will come from their endless debates and experimentation.

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Edited by - The Sage on 30 Apr 2005 12:13:21
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
4883 Posts

Posted - 01 May 2005 :  03:16:14  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Or when they'll revert back to dark elven form ...

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe

785 Posts

Posted - 01 May 2005 :  04:34:42  Show Profile  Visit Shadovar's Homepage Send Shadovar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thank you everyone for the replies to this topic! Well since, if spellcasters can transform themselves into phaerimm, then is it possible that the phaerimm themselves can turn themselves into undead as well? Given their advanced mastery of magic, is it possible for them attempt such a feat?
Also, is it true that there are some phaerimm who wishes to worship gods like Tyr?
Replies gladly welcomed and tahnk you for replying to my queries.

We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31690 Posts

Posted - 01 May 2005 :  05:18:52  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar

...then is it possible that the phaerimm themselves can turn themselves into undead as well...
There is, apparently... or rather could be, only one undead phaerimm in the Realms.

Here's what Eric had to say when asked a question about whether a member of the Twisted Rune cabal might in fact be a phaerimm -

quote:
I thought about this, but didn’t end up including the reference in DDGttU. For the curious, there’s a stray reference in the original write-up of the Twisted Rune (TR) in Code of the Harpers that suggests that one of the Runemasters is a phaerimm. Since the TR is all undead sorcerers, this suggests that there is at least one undead phaerimm in the Realms, and that it lives in the Underdark beneath Amn/Tethyr/ Calimshan (i.e. Deep Shanatar). I’d like to think that it is the ONLY undead phaerimm lich in all of the Realms, but perhaps the brainwashing is taking effect.
Two possibilities occur to me:
(a) The undead phaerimm is one of the unnamed Runemasters of the TR (Remember that Steven left at least two holes in the roster for the DM to fill out), or
(b) The undead phaerimm has figured out how to create “lich puppets”. Thus one, two, or even three of the liches serving under the Runemasters (there are many awaiting their turn to be promoted) are actually puppets of the undead phaerimm.


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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31690 Posts

Posted - 01 May 2005 :  05:22:11  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As I recall also, in the 2e Empires of the Shining South tome, there is a statement made about a phaerimm being a Runemaster of the Twisted Rune, and that it may be an undead one.

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-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

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Arivia
Great Reader

Canada
2879 Posts

Posted - 01 May 2005 :  06:28:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

As I recall also, in the 2e Empires of the Shining South tome, there is a statement made about a phaerimm being a Runemaster of the Twisted Rune, and that it may be an undead one.




And Lords of Darkness specifically lists the possibility of an undead phaerimm as one of the two remaining Runecasters-meaning that's one hook that hasn't died in 3e, gratefully. Additionally, of all things, the MMIII gives us a bit more to play with, stating that one of the two unnamed Runecasters had a hand to play in the creation of the rot reavers. If it was the phaerimm, the general description of the rot reavers leads me to think that the phaerimm might have fielded their precursors or prototypes thereof against the sarrukh, Imaskari, or Netherese.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31690 Posts

Posted - 01 May 2005 :  07:02:44  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
We know that rot reavers are said to enjoy and take great pleasure in the killing of living creatures, and that phaerimm generally have an overwhelming need to inflict great pain, which likely leads to death.

Perhaps this inherent phaerimm trait came to be exemplified - and later evolved into a biological drive to kill - in the rot reavers that the third and unrevealed Runemaster (the undead phaerimm) helped create.

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Edited by - The Sage on 01 May 2005 07:04:24
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Hymn
Senior Scribe

Sweden
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Posted - 02 May 2005 :  21:58:41  Show Profile  Send Hymn an AOL message  Send Hymn an ICQ Message  Click to see Hymn's MSN Messenger address  Send Hymn a Yahoo! Message Send Hymn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmm, remember I ran afoul of a non-canon Imaskari/ Phaerimm timeline. Now if I just could remember where I saw it online.

Sauro moki kara ochiro - Even monkeys falls from trees.

The path that leads to truth is littered with the bodies of the ignorant - Miyamoto Musashi
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe

785 Posts

Posted - 03 May 2005 :  11:58:37  Show Profile  Visit Shadovar's Homepage Send Shadovar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks everyone for the replies to this topic, for I do appreciate the replies to the topic I placed in this forum. So based on the replies, does it mean an Undead Phaerimm is superior to a living phaerimm with the power that can match legendary Archwizard Karse? And in a one on one fight between a Undead Phaerimm and a living phaerimm, guess who will win the fight?(given both have an advanced mastery of magic)

We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30204 Posts

Posted - 03 May 2005 :  17:42:14  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar

Thanks everyone for the replies to this topic, for I do appreciate the replies to the topic I placed in this forum. So based on the replies, does it mean an Undead Phaerimm is superior to a living phaerimm with the power that can match legendary Archwizard Karse? And in a one on one fight between a Undead Phaerimm and a living phaerimm, guess who will win the fight?(given both have an advanced mastery of magic)



I don't think any mortal spellcaster will ever reach Karsus's level of mastery.

As for the rest of your question, it's almost an X vs. Y thing. What's the scenario? Are they both the same level? Do they both have the same spells, or does one have more powerful and/or unique spells? What about magical items? Does one ambush the other?

In a straight-up fight, between a living and an undead phaerimm of identical levels, with no outside factors, I'd put my money on the undead one. But both would be foolish to allow a fight to happen like that -- they'd both want the deck stacked in their favor before the fight began. Then it would become an issue of who stacked the deck better...

So really, it's difficult to make anything other than just a guess.

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Darkheyr
Learned Scribe

264 Posts

Posted - 04 May 2005 :  06:07:07  Show Profile  Visit Darkheyr's Homepage  Send Darkheyr an ICQ Message  Click to see Darkheyr's MSN Messenger address Send Darkheyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Also, being undead doesn't automatically make you better. A Lich has some nasty immunities for example... But suddenly becomes very vulnerable to various anti-undead spells.

silm.pw - A Neverwinter Nights Persistent World
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe

785 Posts

Posted - 05 May 2005 :  12:53:06  Show Profile  Visit Shadovar's Homepage Send Shadovar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmm.. very well then, I wonder does the phaerimm themselves have rankings and positions of authority over their fellow phaerimm such as chieftain rank? Replies are gladly appreciated.

We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30204 Posts

Posted - 05 May 2005 :  17:55:10  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar

Hmm.. very well then, I wonder does the phaerimm themselves have rankings and positions of authority over their fellow phaerimm such as chieftain rank? Replies are gladly appreciated.



I'm away from my books (they're home, I'm at work, sigh) at the moment... But I'm not recalling any lore that indicates any kind of ranking hierarchy among the phaerimm. I could be mistaken, though.

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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
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Posted - 06 May 2005 :  01:18:52  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Monsters of Faerun is the only tome I have on hand at the moment which details the phaerimm. It mentions only that elder phaerimm are extremely powerful and will often have significant numbers of servants or slaves entralled to them.

This by itself would seem to indicate that there is at least some form of hierarchy within the phaerimm, since it is also said that the magical abilities of younger phaerimm aren't as developed which might suggest that they cannot create their own entralled slave "dominions".

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-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe

785 Posts

Posted - 06 May 2005 :  02:16:21  Show Profile  Visit Shadovar's Homepage Send Shadovar a Private Message  Reply with Quote

quote:
Orignally posted by The Sage
This by itself would seem to indicate that there is at least some form of hierarchy within the phaerimm, since it is also said that the magical abilities of younger phaerimm aren't as developed which might suggest that they cannot create their own entralled slave "dominions".



So given that a young phaerimm is some sort of novice mage at birth, so is there some sort of competition among the young phaerimm to attain the position occupied by the eldest phaerimm or at least a position of power and authority that grants them power over their fellows.

We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend.
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