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Daviot
Senior Scribe

USA
365 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2010 :  23:16:05  Show Profile  Visit Daviot's Homepage  Send Daviot an AOL message Send Daviot a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, last any of us have heard, WotC's fansite policy was (and is) not particularly high on their to-do list, and any official compendium will have to wait on said currently-not-extant policy.

It's a bummer, as most of us scribes might agree.

One usually has far more to fear from the soft-spoken wizard with a blade and well-worn boots than from the boisterous one in the ivory tower.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31690 Posts

Posted - 29 Oct 2010 :  00:44:28  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Arik

Aha, well, it's been more than a tenday now. I'm guessing this is a dead scroll and CK-X has been abandoned indefinitely.
Never abandoned. It's simply still in publishing limbo, as I said earlier.

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Alisttair
Great Reader

Canada
3054 Posts

Posted - 29 Oct 2010 :  12:04:30  Show Profile  Visit Alisttair's Homepage  Click to see Alisttair's MSN Messenger address Send Alisttair a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Arik, you will have to drive to Wizards HQ and demand in person that they release the policy. It is being held there in captivity by the Hasbro team.

Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)

Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6270 Posts

Posted - 30 Oct 2010 :  00:17:49  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ha convince the wizards to release something that might - one day, perhaps - be used to generate power and wealth? I'd probably have better luck driving to Shadowdale to demand in person that Elminster gives me his pipe. It seems highly improbable I'd succeed.

[/Ayrik]
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14027 Posts

Posted - 02 Nov 2010 :  19:05:05  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Netbooks can still be published - we just can't involve CK.

Snowblood's been doing a fine job of it all by himself, and Dalor Darden's Ixinos supplement is also noteworthy. Also, lets not forget Lord Karsus' fine Elves of Faerun.

We just can't, unfortunately, use this site to host them anymore, which is sad because it lent them (and it's contributors) some credibility.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Zireael
Master of Realmslore

Poland
1190 Posts

Posted - 03 Nov 2010 :  18:53:51  Show Profile  Visit Zireael's Homepage Send Zireael a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Netbooks can still be published - we just can't involve CK.

Snowblood's been doing a fine job of it all by himself, and Dalor Darden's Ixinos supplement is also noteworthy. Also, lets not forget Lord Karsus' fine Elves of Faerun.

We just can't, unfortunately, use this site to host them anymore, which is sad because it lent them (and it's contributors) some credibility.



Why not?

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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6270 Posts

Posted - 10 Nov 2010 :  11:16:23  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'd guess it's because Wizbro aggressively protects the brand with NDAs that restrict what many of our foremost CK scribes can divulge.

[/Ayrik]
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14027 Posts

Posted - 10 Nov 2010 :  23:48:37  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Because they are being very non-specific about fan-sites, allowing then to 'target them as needed'. Creating a very specific fansite policy allows people to find 'loopholes', so leaving everything vague leaves the ball entirely in their court.

CandleKeep no longer knows exactly what it is allowed to do at this point, which is even worse then knowing what it can't do. They've basically placed us in a state of suspended animation.

Its brilliant, really. They hold all the cards.

I applaud them for doing something right (from a purely business PoV).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Alisttair
Great Reader

Canada
3054 Posts

Posted - 11 Nov 2010 :  11:37:17  Show Profile  Visit Alisttair's Homepage  Click to see Alisttair's MSN Messenger address Send Alisttair a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Bah! They like Candlekeep. If they hated us, they would have attacked the prior volumes of the Compendium. I'm going with what Matt said (which feels like forevor ago) and agree we should go ahead. Just put a fanlore notice or something on the cover, I dunno. Some kind of idea like that if anyone has one that is better.

Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)

Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023
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Alisttair
Great Reader

Canada
3054 Posts

Posted - 11 Nov 2010 :  11:38:26  Show Profile  Visit Alisttair's Homepage  Click to see Alisttair's MSN Messenger address Send Alisttair a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh and keep it crunch free (all fluffy fan made lore).

Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)

Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30211 Posts

Posted - 11 Nov 2010 :  12:49:14  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair

Bah! They like Candlekeep. If they hated us, they would have attacked the prior volumes of the Compendium.


We know they tolerate us. I haven't seen enough info to say whether or not they like us.

But considering the sometimes strong anti-4E sentiment, I doubt we're their favorite fan site.

Prior volumes of the Compendium were released before 4E -- before the negativity, before the "fan site kit" that basically said you couldn't criticize them, and before WotC had some websites shut down. It's a different world, now.

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Alisttair
Great Reader

Canada
3054 Posts

Posted - 11 Nov 2010 :  13:54:54  Show Profile  Visit Alisttair's Homepage  Click to see Alisttair's MSN Messenger address Send Alisttair a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
We know they tolerate us. I haven't seen enough info to say whether or not they like us.down. It's a different world, now.



Well we are aknowledged in many of the novels (not just from the authors themselves).

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
But considering the sometimes strong anti-4E sentiment, I doubt we're their favorite fan site.down. It's a different world, now.



Yeah, but surely they must know that not all of us here are anti-4E??

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Prior volumes of the Compendium were released before 4E -- before the negativity, before the "fan site kit" that basically said you couldn't criticize them, and before WotC had some websites shut down. It's a different world, now.



Couldn't they attack those now anyways (in a ret-con sort of way)?? there wouldn't be any criticism in the Compendium. The sites that were shut down were mostly ones that broke copyright laws (full access to powers) or had their own character builders. Basically, stuff that would cause Wizards to lose money, whereas the Compendium, if anything (with some printed FR books coming our way), would potentially help renew interest in the Realms and make them money. That's how I see it anyways


Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)

Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader

USA
3074 Posts

Posted - 11 Nov 2010 :  15:29:00  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AlisttairWell we are aknowledged in many of the novels (not just from the authors themselves).

Actually, the only acknowledgments that Candlekeep (the site/forums) we have are from the authors. Candlekeep the place was around in the Realms and is the basis for the website, not vice versa.

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

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Zireael
Master of Realmslore

Poland
1190 Posts

Posted - 11 Nov 2010 :  15:31:58  Show Profile  Visit Zireael's Homepage Send Zireael a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Couldn't they attack those now anyways (in a ret-con sort of way)?? there wouldn't be any criticism in the Compendium. The sites that were shut down were mostly ones that broke copyright laws (full access to powers) or had their own character builders. Basically, stuff that would cause Wizards to lose money, whereas the Compendium, if anything (with some printed FR books coming our way), would potentially help renew interest in the Realms and make them money. That's how I see it anyways




If it was so, I don't understand the Compendium being put on a shelf. It does not violate copyright nor does it cause WotC to lose money.

SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!

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Alisttair
Great Reader

Canada
3054 Posts

Posted - 11 Nov 2010 :  15:36:53  Show Profile  Visit Alisttair's Homepage  Click to see Alisttair's MSN Messenger address Send Alisttair a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart

quote:
Originally posted by AlisttairWell we are aknowledged in many of the novels (not just from the authors themselves).

Actually, the only acknowledgments that Candlekeep (the site/forums) we have are from the authors. Candlekeep the place was around in the Realms and is the basis for the website, not vice versa.



I know that. I mean that some authors aknowledge candlekeep.com the site with thanks, while other novels have a quote from Alaundo with candlekeep.com written (the one from this website) on the back cover or inside somewhere(see Richard Lee Byers novels) where he speaks of Unholy or one of the Haunted Lands books. Correct me if I am wrong, but that addition to the book, wouldn't it be an executive or editorial move (which are WotC employees, not freelancers like the author himself)???

Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)

Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader

USA
3074 Posts

Posted - 11 Nov 2010 :  16:35:30  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Alaundo's been asked to review books in the past, and give a quote to help sell them. Much like other authors will give quotes to help sell books by their peers. So, it's not really the site, but Alaundo himself that they are acknowledging. Granted, it gives a certain "official-ness" to the site...

Anyway, this is slightly off-topic. The thing is, between the [url=http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/welcome]GSL and 'Fansite Policy'[/url] that have been released, there are more restrictions against publishing material for the Forgotten Realms IP, even if you offer it for free. Until these questions are answered (waiting for over 2 years now), nobody feels comfortable testing the waters.

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe

USA
623 Posts

Posted - 11 Nov 2010 :  18:11:00  Show Profile  Send Knight of the Gate a Yahoo! Message Send Knight of the Gate a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think the real answer (inasmuch as there is one) is that *we* can do a Compendium. *Candlekeep* however, cannot be associated with it. If CK backs such a tome, it risks being shut down; a risk that is in no way worth the reward. OTOH, if some like-minded scribes do it without CK endorsement, and WotC takes umbrage with the production, then they do so without endangering the 'Keep. Of course, we'd have to call it something else, and the 'Keep couldn't host it, but that's the way the cookie crumbles. Frankly, I'm relieved that CK isn't involved, since I would be very, very sad if something happened to this forum. I think that has to be our highest priority; protecting the Keep and doing nothing that places it at risk.

How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco

Edited by - Knight of the Gate on 11 Nov 2010 18:13:01
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader

USA
3074 Posts

Posted - 11 Nov 2010 :  18:34:54  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Knight of the Gate

I think the real answer (inasmuch as there is one) is that *we* can do a Compendium. *Candlekeep* however, cannot be associated with it. If CK backs such a tome, it risks being shut down; a risk that is in no way worth the reward. OTOH, if some like-minded scribes do it without CK endorsement, and WotC takes umbrage with the production, then they do so without endangering the 'Keep. Of course, we'd have to call it something else, and the 'Keep couldn't host it, but that's the way the cookie crumbles. Frankly, I'm relieved that CK isn't involved, since I would be very, very sad if something happened to this forum. I think that has to be our highest priority; protecting the Keep and doing nothing that places it at risk.

My god, we really are just like the Scribes at the 'Keep, aren't we?

"Do NOT risk the knowledge within!"

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

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Alisttair
Great Reader

Canada
3054 Posts

Posted - 11 Nov 2010 :  18:43:17  Show Profile  Visit Alisttair's Homepage  Click to see Alisttair's MSN Messenger address Send Alisttair a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmmm well something tells me without the Candlekeep name on it, it probably wouldn't get as many fan downloads.

Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)

Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader

USA
3074 Posts

Posted - 11 Nov 2010 :  19:16:52  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair

Hmmm well something tells me without the Candlekeep name on it, it probably wouldn't get as many fan downloads.

And so we come back the crux of the matter.

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31690 Posts

Posted - 11 Nov 2010 :  23:59:59  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
But considering the sometimes strong anti-4E sentiment, I doubt we're their favorite fan site.down. It's a different world, now.



Yeah, but surely they must know that not all of us here are anti-4E??
Sometimes, that isn't always that clear. And I doubt the folk of Wizards really spend all that much time here anyway -- not when they're busy with the running of their own site. If visitors were to take just a brief snapshot of one of the main and current discussion scrolls, they're likely to see constant unfocused negativity, and inane nonsense spouted by individuals who should know better.
quote:
Couldn't they attack those now anyways (in a ret-con sort of way)?? there wouldn't be any criticism in the Compendium. The sites that were shut down were mostly ones that broke copyright laws (full access to powers) or had their own character builders. Basically, stuff that would cause Wizards to lose money, whereas the Compendium, if anything (with some printed FR books coming our way), would potentially help renew interest in the Realms and make them money. That's how I see it anyways
Yes, but Candlekeep is in the unique position of having the active participation of both past and present Realms authors/designers. Most other FR fan sites don't. So that changes the playing field somewhat, in terms of what we can and can't do. And I'm sure Wizards respect that uniqueness -- and as much as I dislike the notion of preferential treatment -- I'm inclined to believe we're entitled to it, because of our long-term relationship with the Lorelords Ed, Steven, Erik, Brian, George, and the rest.

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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6270 Posts

Posted - 12 Nov 2010 :  00:59:10  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Aha, well not to flog a dead horse or anything (though that's exactly what I'm doing) ... but given what you just said, Sage, then why the hesitation to publish CK10? What am I not understanding?

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 12 Nov 2010 00:59:29
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31690 Posts

Posted - 12 Nov 2010 :  01:04:50  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Arik

Aha, well not to flog a dead horse or anything (though that's exactly what I'm doing) ... but given what you just said, Sage, then why the hesitation to publish CK10? What am I not understanding?

Well, that really comes down to the fact that although we are probably acknowledged by Wizards to be somewhat different, we're still not clear on just *what* we can do with this supposed "uniqueness."

I'm not suggesting that Wizards draw up a separate Fan-Site policy just for Candlekeep. But at the same time, the dictates of the generalised Fan-Site policy already put forth by Wizards shouldn't, as I see it, focus on all fan-sites and Candlekeep as well. Because we have something that most don't. And, as I said above, that changes things. So until we're absolutely sure how the Fan-Site policy relates to Candlekeep's uniqueness, I feel [as well as many others] it's safer to position ourselves on the cautious side of the law, and see how it plays out.

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6270 Posts

Posted - 12 Nov 2010 :  01:21:46  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You'd think that a company of game designers, of all people, would always strive to write streamlined rules with as few exceptions as possible. It sounds to me like they're deliberately using a well-entrenched legal bureaucracy to strangle their own product fanbase. Weird. And to think that I'm one of the crowd who prefers to emphasize the positive aspects of Wizbro NDAs (a topic better argued elsewhere), yet this one makes me scratch my head in confusion.

It kinda makes me grin and wonder what you did to irritate them.

So the approach thus far has simply been to avoid stamping the CK brand onto any published material, eh?

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 12 Nov 2010 01:24:50
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31690 Posts

Posted - 12 Nov 2010 :  02:07:26  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Arik

It kinda makes me grin and wonder what you did to irritate them.
I don't believe we have "done anything" to irritate them. I'm more content to assume that Wizards simply don't know how to work our site into the legal-territory established by their Fan-Site Policy.
quote:
So the approach thus far has simply been to avoid stamping the CK brand onto any published material, eh?
Not really. Our approach has been to try and adhere to Wizards' dictates, and respect that we're utilising their IP, while also acknowledging that we're the home of a great deal of "as-close-to-official" source material from the Lorelords -- like Ed. We have to be very careful about what we can and can't do. Which, again, is why I find it's necessary that we simply wait until Wizards discerns how we can continue to published material under the aegis of their new Fan-Site Policy.

I'm sure the majority of us involved in the production of the Candlekeep Compendium would go back to work tomorrow if Wizards' position on all of it were made that much clearer. But until that happens, we're stuck in limbo.

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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