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Kuje
Great Reader

USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 14 Apr 2005 :  17:39:44  Show Profile  Send Kuje an AOL message  Click to see Kuje's MSN Messenger address  Send Kuje a Yahoo! Message Send Kuje a Private Message
Ed,

Slime Lord over on the WOTC boards asked me this earlier this morning:

"Do you know how Ed organizes the material he has on the Realms?"

I answered, "No, but I know he has notes or he makes it up on the spot. Give me a question that you want answered and I'll deliver it to him."

So here's Slime Lords question: "How did you (Ed) manage to keep track of everything when you where and are creating Toril and all that goes with it?"

I assume Slime Lord is looking for specifics like, do you organize churches and church matters by deity? Cities by wards or quarters, etc? Nations by what part of the world they are in. Stuff like that......

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

My Goodreads page: http://www.goodreads.com/kuje

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5043 Posts

Posted - 15 Apr 2005 :  03:23:54  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Hello, all. Ed of the Greenwood replies to Krash the Lorelord in the matter of Dareth:



Hi, George! Sorry for the delay in getting to this. Here we go:
After its initial founding, Dareth attracted dwarves who fled from eastern Delzoun, after being cut off from the rest of Delzoun by the “fall of Felbarr.”
This fall was not a conquest, but rather a decade-long plague (known among the Stout Folk of the day as “the Slaying Slumber” or “the Slaying Sickness”) in which stricken dwarves became drowsy, fell into nightmare-tormented sleeps that lasted longer and longer, until they awakened only briefly, raving and dangerous to all - - and in the end slipped into a deep final sleep in which they died, wasting away in comatose slumber from which nothing (even the pain of dismemberment!) could awaken them.
The Slaying Slumber passed away as suddenly as it had come, never to return, and a few dwarves recovered from it (some after being kept alive magically as they slept). Most dwarves believe that their various races became immune to whatever caused this affliction, but a few firmly hold the belief that the sickness was begun by a sinister spell sent by a foe of the dwarves, or perhaps duergar or others within the dwarves who sought to exterminate other dwarves, and that it ended when the spell faded, or its unknown caster ended the magic or was slain.
The dwarves never talk of the Slumber to non-dwarves, and say little of it among themselves, considering it a weakness some foe could use against them if knowledge of it became widespread - - so many younger dwarves have never heard of it. Most of its victims were burned, and it struck first and hardest in Citadel Felbarr, until some dwarves of Delzoun put a ‘shieldwall’ around the Citadel and “by the axe” prevented dwarves of Felbarr from venturing forth.
A few broke out of Felbarr and headed east, to easternmost Delzoun (where it was commonly known in the Northkingdom that there was abundant food, water, and unclaimed natural caverns to dwell in). This in turn caused some panicked dwarves already dwelling in that region to flee far to the east “to get away from the Death,” and they fled far, stopping and settling only when they reached the already-existing realm of Dareth, where they were welcomed.
Although the Slumber made dwarves of Delzoun mistrustful and wary for years, and hampered trade, it actually slew only a few thousand dwarves, and life in the Northkingdom slowly returned to normal. In Felbarr and elsewhere, many dwarves never fell ill even as those around them slept or raved, and no place in Delzoun was abandoned, or taken by foes of the dwarves, because of the Slumber.



So saith Ed. Ooooh, essential Realmslore indeed! And there’s more coming tomorrow!
Yessssss!
love to all,
THO
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
4907 Posts

Posted - 15 Apr 2005 :  06:40:02  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message
Essential realmslore indeed, THO! Thank you, Ed - far different (but wonderfully so) reasoning than I had expected. Now to tie it into Dareth ...

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5043 Posts

Posted - 16 Apr 2005 :  01:23:43  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Well met again, fellow scribes. Ed deals with the last (well, actually it was posed first, but such is the Wandering Way of Ed) DWARVES DEEP question from George Krashos:



The dwarven language section of FR11 was kept short, because even back then there was an attitude of “Runes are okay for dungeon inscriptions, but THIS is fluff! Keep it short, and give us more new monsters and magic instead!” You’ve no doubt noticed that I tended to stick to “adventuring-situation” words. However, I quite agree that a LOT is missing.
Quite honestly, I don’t have the time to work up a proper “tongue” right now, and probably won’t for a long time to come, but I can certainly expand the working Dwarvish vocabulary by listing some of the ‘missing words’ you mention, as follows:


adamantine: ohloro (usually shortened to “hloro” in everyday speech)
adamantite: oro
armor (plate or piece): harth
chain (linked end to end in rope-like form, not armor): burr
chainmail shirt: hauburr
cold: thorord (“THOR-ord”)
dragon: aug
giant (the creatures): raullen (“RAWL-un”) (literally “tall-walker”) (plural: raraullen)
gleam (reflected light, also a reflected image): spaerend (“SPAYUR-end”)
goblin: usarr (plural: sarr)
hammer: dorth
helm: tholdokh (“thole-DOCK”)
hoard (usually of a dragon, but can be any monster-guarded treasure): augdauh (“og-DAW”)
hobgoblin: usark (plural: sark)
journey (‘walk’): ullen (“ULL-en”)
kobold: ubol (plural: boldrin)
leathers (underlayer for armor, or forge-aprons and other protection): surk (plural: surrthen)
light (true, steady light, such as sunlight, moonlight, and phosphorescence): hara
light hammer (the weapon): hardorth (“HAR-dorth”)
light hammer (a finework tool, smaller than a hardorth): trast
mithral: himral (“HIMM-rall”)
pick (the tool or weapon, not the act of selection): isson (“ISS-awn”) (literally “pierce-stone”)
pierce: iss
priest: thaebrast (“THAY-brast”) (plural: thaebrar)
shield (the item): harbarak (“HAR-bay-ur-ak”) (often shortened to “barak” in daily use)
silver: thordspaer (literally “cold-gleam”)
stone: onn (“AW-nnn”)
tall (high): rau (“RAWW”)
war: aragh (“AR-ag”)
war hammer: aragh dorth
winter: arauthorord (“ar-AW-thor-ord”) (literally “great-cold”)



So saith Ed. Ah, the essential Realmslore just keeps coming and coming.
love to all,
THO
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Faraer
Great Reader

3298 Posts

Posted - 16 Apr 2005 :  01:31:57  Show Profile  Visit Faraer's Homepage Send Faraer a Private Message
'Tis good.

That reminds me that over on the wizards.com boards people are pondering the elven language... not exactly for the first time, but a couple of them actually have some linguistic expertise. They can't really do much concrete work until the existing fragments have been assembled -- I already referred them to Steven's Cormanthyr notes.

I'll see if I can round up some queries to pass on to you, Ed, but here's one: Given that the elf and drow tongues seem to share little or no vocabulary, what's their relationship?

Edited by - Faraer on 16 Apr 2005 01:32:32
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
4907 Posts

Posted - 16 Apr 2005 :  02:57:41  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message
A big 'thanks' once again Ed for the dwarven words. Hammer of Moradin will be weeping in his beard out of gratitude! Now, to look at some dwarven weapons ...

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore

USA
1287 Posts

Posted - 16 Apr 2005 :  03:46:52  Show Profile  Visit Gray Richardson's Homepage Send Gray Richardson a Private Message
Thank you, thank you Ed for those extra Dwarven words! They warm the cockles of a poor linguist's heart!
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31690 Posts

Posted - 16 Apr 2005 :  05:20:50  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message
Bink!

Thank you Lady, and to the Great Ed as well for delivering this wonderful dwarven lexicon. I'm sure The Hammer would appreciate this detailing also....

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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Si
Seeker

United Kingdom
18 Posts

Posted - 16 Apr 2005 :  10:36:51  Show Profile  Visit Si's Homepage Send Si a Private Message
Well met all
a couple of questions vaguely related to Ed's recent Noble Pastimes and Waterdeep property answers;
How closely related do you have to be to the rulers of a Waterdeep Noble family to receive the full Noble privileges(stipend, status etc)? Obviously this will vary from family to family, but there must be quite a few of the Noble families who have hordes of 'country cousins' who have to make their own way in the world.
Secondly, if my characters wanted to buy something like one of your 'tallhouses' you describe in Waterdeep in a reasonably nice area, how much coin are we talking about, on average?
Many Thanks

'Only the little people suffer at the hands of Justice; The creatures of power slide out from under with a wink and a grin.'
Quellcrist Falconer
Things I Should Have Learnt by Now

Edited by - Si on 16 Apr 2005 10:47:05
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Kuje
Great Reader

USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 16 Apr 2005 :  17:34:31  Show Profile  Send Kuje an AOL message  Click to see Kuje's MSN Messenger address  Send Kuje a Yahoo! Message Send Kuje a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Si
Secondly, if my characters wanted to buy something like one of your 'tallhouses' you describe in Waterdeep in a reasonably nice area, how much coin are we talking about, on average?
Many Thanks


Steven wrote this up many years ago, it might help:

http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Castle/2566/ss-buildings.htm

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

My Goodreads page: http://www.goodreads.com/kuje

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5043 Posts

Posted - 17 Apr 2005 :  01:39:03  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Hello again, fellow scribes. Ed comments on the recent laws promoted in Cormyr:



Dargoth, Cormyr will be attracting folk from Westgate and all over urban Sembia who long for the relative law-abiding security but can’t afford space of their own where they dwell now, caravan traders from all over Faerûn who’ve visited Cormyr while trading and liked the place and wanted to settle down there when the rigors of the road become too much for them . . . and so on . . .
However, please bear in mind that although YOU see the ‘double standard’ of one rule for now-dead Azoun IV and another for commoners and deem it ‘cheek,’ folk in Cormyr probably don’t (except for the nobility); they EXPECT royalty to have different rules and benefits than commoners do. (It ain’t injustice until someone convinces you it is.)

Beowulf, your dislike of Cormyr is just fine with me; the realm seems to attract strong love or strong dislike from fans of the Realms. It’s important to remember (and your comment about hypocrisy and your sarcasm about Cormyr being ‘the good kingdom’ underscore this) that passing laws and enforcing them energetically is a two-edged sword: whatever ‘goodness’ one attempts to promote through rules can easily be lost or subverted - - even without any intent to do so - - by the rules being twisted or poorly drafted (or thought out), or just piled on too enthusiastically.
It should also be noted that all rulers make mistakes, that regents are watched more closely than most monarchs for weaknesses and mistakes, and that Alusair is at least less stiff-necked than most: she WILL backtrack and reverse a wrong decision. So this law may not stand forever, or even for long.



So saith Ed. Who is well aware of other outstanding Cormyr lore requests from these two scribes, and will get to them very soon.
Or (heh-heh) he’ll answer to ME.
love to all,
THO
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Kuje
Great Reader

USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 17 Apr 2005 :  22:58:18  Show Profile  Send Kuje an AOL message  Click to see Kuje's MSN Messenger address  Send Kuje a Yahoo! Message Send Kuje a Private Message
Hey Ed,

When you said this back on Dec 11th, to Sheemy, "I hopes this makes things clearer. I neither wanted Planescape to be a different product line nor did I want two different cosmologies to develop, but we’re stuck with them. If you’d like me to follow Planescape, then I need the Planescape materials republished with Nine Hells-specific details changed to match all of the already-published Realms work, because consistency MUST trump all. As it was, I danced around a lot in plotting and writing ELMINSTER IN HELL so as to contradict differences as little as possible, yet you obviously still weren’t happy with the result. Well, so be it, I’m afraid - - but if you’d like to e-chat about this some more, I’m perfectly happy to do so."

Were you also including the 3/3.5e version of FR's cosmology in the part where you said, "I never wanted two different cosmologies to develop, but we're stuck with them."

I ask because there is one game designer, who is no longer with WOTC, who has fans who continue to claim that you said you gave your okay with the changes to planes that appeared in the FRCS and then later expanded in the Players Guide. I know you don't have much say in what WOTC does but your reply to Shemmy made me curious because the planar changes cause all kinds of inconsistencies in FR's lore. It's also, after four years, one of the most heated arguements on the boards. :)

Also was there ever a set of planes that you had created that didn't include the Great Wheel? So what I'm asking here is: Were you forced to abandon the planes that your originally had and instead use the Great Wheel. I realize also that TSR did force all the campaign settings to use the Great Wheel. Also I'm curious if the 3/3.5e's version of the planes are closer to your original concept of the FR planes....

I realize some of this is sensitive and you might not be able to answer any of this. :)

Edited by - Kuje on 18 Apr 2005 16:49:03
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5043 Posts

Posted - 18 Apr 2005 :  01:29:20  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Hello, all. Hmm, I see a storm brewing. Swords, down, lads, and hearken to Ed Greenwood, as he replies to David Lázaro with his top five tips to DMs:

1. Give your players what they want. NOT “give in to them,” but work hard to find out what settings (city, wilderness, dungeon, arctic, naval, underwater) and styles (intrigue, hack-and-slash, chase or hunt, etc.) of adventure your players prefer, and make sure you give them the entertainment they crave.Otherwise, why are you wasting your time doing this?

2. Everybody loves a mystery. Work three sorts of mysteries into your campaign play: little things tied to the PCs’ pasts (e.g. The Six-Fingered Man from THE PRINCESS BRIDE), mysteries unfolding under PC noses (who’s the villain who keeps plundering treasures before they do, who escapes back into - - gulp - - the Palace? and/or: who’s the mysterious mage who’s threatening to steal the Princess away before her wedding night, who keeps leaving messages that are driving the King mad with rage and worry?), and “little motif” mysteries that you can build into something greater, later (e.g. the same little bird that always flies past the PCs’ noses after they find a treasure, or the same commoner who’s always watching in the crowd during their race and chase scenes). It doesn’t matter if you don’t know what this motif means; as the campaign unfolds, you’ll find a clever explanation for it that will make your players think you’ve been planning this for years!

3. Like a favorite series of novels or television show, build up a colourful cast of NPCs that the PCS, love, like, hate, or just know (as gossips in the tavern, as shopkeepers who know where to get this item or that, and so on). Keep track of the lives, ambitions, and interests of these NPCs to make the setting seem rich and real, and to give the PCs sources they can ‘check in with’ or ‘call on’ if they’re bored, or need information.

4. Intrigue and power groups. Remember, manipulating others is something all humans do, and dreaming and scheming is something most of us love to do. Most power groups won’t be Fell Wizards with a Diabolical Plan, but a few fat merchants meeting in a back room to get girls behind their wives’ backs, or work a little swindle, or something of the sort. Surround the PCs with dozens of these little mysteries, until they think they can uncover something really big - - and then the players will start their own adventures, and you as DM can sit back, ‘ride the fun,’ and embroider new side-adventures accordingly. Remember: the PCs are heroes who SHOULD take charge, not just reacting to the world by following the scripts of adventure after adventure you slap down in front of them.

5. Play sessions are ENTERTAINMENT - - or should be. Watch your players, change things if they get frustrated or bored, keep the pacing moving, forget the rules (except when to do so will start fights/anger players), and concentrate on acting and describing and making things seem alive. Watch a caper movie (for example, the recent remake of OCEAN’S ELEVEN) and notice how (without quite the frenetic jump-cutting pace of a rock video) things keep swiftly and smoothly moving along. By all means plan breaks (gossip and pee-break and chips-devouring time) in play sessions, but otherwise build things to cliffhangers, raise the volume and pace when fights are going on, and generally KEEP YOUR PLAYERS MORE INTERESTED THAN AN ACTION MOVIE DOES. They’ll remember your play sessions fondly.

And now, Ed’s top five Realms DMing tips:

1. The Realms is common people living their everyday lives (where does the food and water come from? where does the chamberpot empty to? how does yonder man feed his family?), not Elminster and the Seven whizzing here, there, and everywhere. Keep the big guns in the background (except for brief appearances to remind players that their characters aren’t the only heroes swaggering through a landscape of cringing targets) until your PCs are of power level enough for them to be useful. Yet mention them continuously (see #2, below), so that when that time comes, it won’t SEEM like you’re just “tossing them into play now.” This goes for magic as well as NPCs: just because the printed Realms has a lot of magic DOESN’T mean every last farm and woodlot is humming with it. Only the really interesting ones, that have ladies like Storm strolling around in the herb gardens. :}
Follow the Money. PCs’ “day jobs” (and they WILL have day jobs, sometimes, won’t they?) and all the ‘ready money’ that can be stolen, fought over, or hidden away as treasure follows the flow of goods (port shipping or caravan merchant trade). Know those flows!

2. And Now The News. Keep the gossip, wild rumor, and legitimate news flowing, with every talkative merchant and passing caravan. Make the Realms seem REAL AND ALIVE, and remind players that their characters aren’t the only ones doing anything exciting. In taverns and marketplaces, toss local opinions about this king and that power group at them - - and don’t forget to let them hear how gossip distorts their public doings, too, to warn them not to trust everything they hear.

3. Keep accurate track of calendar time. Which really means: note down your prime-mover villains and opponents of the PCs, and what these dastards are up to, day by day, so events will ‘move along’ when PCs are resting, recuperating, or lost in some dungeon somewhere. Remember to introduce new villains before the PCs have slaughtered the old ones (keep a constant supply coming), and that PC hideouts, strongholds, and loved ones left behind are fair game for PC foes, not ‘off limits.’ Have bands of adventurers attack the PCs while they’re sleeping in their homes - - just to establish a reputation or rob these “filthy rich, successful adventurers.” Make the PCs aware of the dangers of making too many enemies: they might get attacked by two or three groups at once, or foes may team up against the PCs, or tax collectors or creditors might seize PC property HERE while the PCs are busy fighting for their lives over THERE.
Yes, doing this DOES mean keeping notes. Don’t go wild, but do record which characters went along, important items gained, deaths, and initial meetings with NPCs. If you have to make up a character or place description ‘on the fly,’ note it down. Or your players will catch your inconsistencies, sooner or later!

4. Humour. Not nasty pranks, but ‘human nature’ moments and pratfalls. Don’t forget to include them in play sessions - - and give the PCs chances to do funny things, so their players get the full release of laughter. Reward your players for spending the time around your gaming table, remember, and a good laugh and great memories of it last a lot longer than this many gold pieces or that many experience points. Nobody loves grim doom and hard battle, with the fate of the free world riding on their bloody swordblade, all the time - - that’s WAY too much like real life.

5. Act, act, act: put on funny voices for certain NPCs, get up and wring your hands if you’re playing a nervous innkeeper, sashay with hand on hip if you’re playing the local lowcoin lass, stride manfully and snap grim orders if you’re a Watch commander. Bring those NPCs to life. Make your players want to go out and meet the local loonies. Foster friendships and love affairs and cranky old eccentrics, so PCs will WANT to go and consult old Floppyboots the beggar (a retired wizard gone mad), or the sisters Lhindra and Shalara, who peddle scents (and drugs, and poisons), and their own fading charms (“We have whips, goodsir, if your interests lie that way”), or helpful priestess Thardra, a firm-voiced bitch who’s full of sound, straight-truth advice (the DM, handing players “the way out” when they’ve really screwed up). The Realms is PEOPLE. Make your players want to have their characters marry some, bed others, slay and rob others, impress a few, and humiliate a lot more.



So saith Ed. And there you have it: an entire GenCon seminar, for free! Enjoy!
love to all,
THO
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Antareana
Seeker

Germany
59 Posts

Posted - 18 Apr 2005 :  01:52:16  Show Profile  Visit Antareana's Homepage Send Antareana a Private Message
Wow, thanks for that great Lore of the Lord of Songs, Ed
you really know how to inspire new stories in us

and... "some old notes on Milil"? Better let my little mind not imagine what paper mountains of Realmslore are growing at Ed's... what treasure

It is all just a past and future secret

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Kentinal
Great Reader

4298 Posts

Posted - 18 Apr 2005 :  01:54:22  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One


1. The Realms is common people living their everyday lives (where does the food and water come from? where does the chamberpot empty to?




I have been trying to figure this out for years. The system does not support the answers even with 3.x that expanded from the 0 level/normal man concepts of prior editions.

How much is a chamber maid paid to empty the pot, how much does she have to pay for shelter and food? In some ways there are answers in various versions, it just gets muddier in current version.

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Zandilar
Learned Scribe

Australia
313 Posts

Posted - 18 Apr 2005 :  02:14:22  Show Profile  Visit Zandilar's Homepage Send Zandilar a Private Message
Heya,

quote:
Originally posted by Faraer

'Tis good.

That reminds me that over on the wizards.com boards people are pondering the elven language... not exactly for the first time, but a couple of them actually have some linguistic expertise. They can't really do much concrete work until the existing fragments have been assembled -- I already referred them to Steven's Cormanthyr notes.



Of course, one thing people always seem to forget about other languages is that the grammar would be different. It's not just about replacing English words with babble. (So when I was under taking the task of inventing a language for my own homebrewed game, I made sure that the language had it's own gramatical structure.)

quote:

I'll see if I can round up some queries to pass on to you, Ed, but here's one: Given that the elf and drow tongues seem to share little or no vocabulary, what's their relationship?



You know it's totally possible that this has occured due to certian writers taking poetic licence to invent the drow tongue. They didn't really do it completely, since there's no recorded gramatical structure to the language, and the majority of the work at compiling a "dictionary" appears to have been done by fans: House Maerdyn Translator, House Maerdyn Dictionary. As you can see from the first site, there's no grammar work for the drow language - the quotes are word for word English gibberish. (Which isn't really to denigrate the work they have done, but it certianly is not complete.)

I know of only one attempt to actually "complete" the language with it's own gramatical structure (based on the existing words): Jashan's Non-Fantasy Introduction to Drow. Of course, she's not Ed, nor is she someone working for WotC, so her work fits definitely in the unofficial camp (just as House Maerdyn's probably does too). (As an aside, Jashan is quite a talented writer, and I'd recommend her works to the 18+ audience (adult themes, violence, female/female relationships) - some are based on the Black Isle/Bioware Baldur's Gate computer games... She's not a "Realms" fan per se, she came to the language via the computer game and as a result, don't expect much accuracy with regards to Realms lore in her stories. She's kind of taken what was in the games, and smished it into a world of her own invention.)

Anyway, the actual point I'm trying to make is that because the two languages (elven and drow) appear to have been developed mostly in isolation to one another, one can see that they would bear little resemblance to each other. Both sides (of people doing work on the languages) seem to have overlooked the fact that they're related. (No, I'm not critisizing Ed Greenwood and R A Salvatore, or other writers and fans working on the languages, I'm just making an observation.)

However, in the "real" Realms it would be impossible to separate the roots of the two languages - since drow were originally of the same people. Time and distance has separated them so the similarities might only be minimal, and it's possible that you'd only see ancient word roots in old words. Languages are forever evolving and changing, and I'd imagine that the tongues of other underdark races would have had some influence over the development of the drow language. Of course, there's always the possibility that the drow are overly worried about the purity of their language, and at times in their history there may have been drow that resisted the inclusion of foriegn words in their language. On the other hand, the drow might be language thieves, just as we English speakers are. Words that are commonly used eventually get included in the language, modified if needed to fit.

IMHO, Drow and Elven should be a little like Italian and French as far as differences go. They share similar origins, but today they're totally separate languages. Of course, I could be wrong.

Another aside: It seems that the drow language is hugely popular. To the point where many Dark Elf (Teir'dal) players/fans in EverQuest (both incarnations), seem to think that the language is appropriate for their race. I keep trying to tell people that because the races are completely different in their origins and psychology as well as physical world, that they wouldn't speak drow. I never get listened to, though. (I don't go as far as to tell them they mustn't use it, I just won't respond in character to them and none of my teir'dal characters will use it.)

Edited - dealing with generalizations I didn't mean to make. :)

Zandilar
~amor vincit omnia~
~audaces fortuna iuvat~

As the spell ends, you look up into the sky to see the sun blazing overhead like noon in a desert. Then something else in the sky catches your attention. Turning your gaze, you see a tawny furred kitten bounding across the sky towards the new sun. Her eyes glint a mischevious green as she pounces on it as if it were nothing but a colossal ball of golden yarn. With quick strokes of her paws, it is batted across the sky, back and forth. Then with a wink the kitten and the sun disappear, leaving the citizens of Elversult gazing up with amazed expressions that quickly turn into chortles and mirth.

The Sunlord left Elversult the same day in humilitation, and was never heard from again.

Edited by - Zandilar on 18 Apr 2005 02:32:40
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
Admin

United Kingdom
5584 Posts

Posted - 18 Apr 2005 :  10:16:20  Show Profile  Visit Alaundo's Homepage  Click to see Alaundo's MSN Messenger address Send Alaundo a Private Message
Well met

Aye, a storm brewing indeed Let us all please try to keep this a friendly place for our appreciated guests and discuss Realmslore in a pleasant manner.

I'll say no more on the matter! Now, where did I put that scroll for warding against trolls?

Thank ye


Alaundo
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
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Australia
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Posted - 18 Apr 2005 :  14:31:59  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message
::The Sage, realising with some degree of shock that he was now holding the scroll in question, glanced quickly over as the grumbling form of Alaundo approached. Seeing the Master Sage's eyes narrow in suspect, the Sage shrugged his shoulders and proclaimed, "It wasn't my fault. The Rupert made me do it."::

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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USA
30283 Posts

Posted - 18 Apr 2005 :  17:29:55  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

::The Sage, realising with some degree of shock that he was now holding the scroll in question, glanced quickly over as the grumbling form of Alaundo approached. Seeing the Master Sage's eyes narrow in suspect, the Sage shrugged his shoulders and proclaimed, "It wasn't my fault. The Rupert made me do it."::




Now you see the value of always hiding from Big Al!

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Faraer
Great Reader

3298 Posts

Posted - 18 Apr 2005 :  21:09:44  Show Profile  Visit Faraer's Homepage Send Faraer a Private Message
Yes, it's the grammar that the people on wizards.com (including our own Gray Richardson) are concerned with.

I didn't know there were enough attested drow phrases to come to Jashan's conclusion about 'English with funny words'. Thing is, also, we don't know the drow language is related to the elves': it might be a gift from Lolth, for instance.

There's also the fact that we know there's a range of different elven languages, which is both a pain when trying to construct one and a help in dealing with inconsistent data.

Zandilar, perhaps you can spin off a thread about what this great drow-popularity is about, if you can shed any light on it.
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Kentinal
Great Reader

4298 Posts

Posted - 18 Apr 2005 :  21:19:17  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer

Thing is, also, we don't know the drow language is related to the elves': it might be a gift from Lolth, for instance.



As I recall Drow and Elven have the same route/source, certainly not a gift from Lolth (though she certainly added some words, and canon is subject to change.

Edited by - Kentinal on 19 Apr 2005 09:06:09
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5043 Posts

Posted - 19 Apr 2005 :  04:12:55  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Hello, all. Ed replies to this question from Beowulf: “I'm curious about the atmosphere in Arabel in the days immediately following Gondegal's defeat. Was the city unwillfully placed under Gondegal's lead or did he have local support? What sort of efforts were made following the occupation to root out traitors and/or to supress dissent? Did it involve many folk? What did the common folk of Arabel think of these efforts?”
Here’s Ed:



Beowulf, in those days Arabel was far more lightly ‘held’ by Cormyr, and there were many oldblood families in the city who believed Arabel should be independent once more. Some few of them supported Gondegal at first, but many turned away from supporting him when they saw what others had seen earlier: that no matter how they might chafe under the rule of the Obarskyrs, Gondegal was far worse.
He was a gallant, handsome war-hero, always in the saddle fighting - - and thinking and acting that way. In short, he was a demagogue and tyrant who mentally divided the Realms into those who served him or were his allies, and anyone who hadn’t always, at every turn, obeyed or aided him: a very large group of “everyone else” whom he considered his foes, to be eliminated ruthlessly as opportunities arose. In short, he could be a far worse butcher and swift ignorer of laws and rights than any Obarskyr the folk of Arabel had known. Trials were a waste of time; if he was suspicious of someone or didn’t like something he saw them doing OR IT WAS REPORTED TO HIM THAT THEY’D DONE, he butchered them on sight. And moved on. You can make a populace fear and hate you very quickly that way.
Independence from Cormyr, yes - - but under the heel of Gondegal? No.
That was the general mood among older folk of Arabel. As for the city’s younger malcontents, most of them rallied to Gondegal early on, fell under the spell of his charisma, handsome good looks, tireless energy, bright new ideas and schemes, willingness to listen to opinions, and (for the ladies) prowess in bed, and (so long as they were wise and fortunate enough not to cross him, and learn how swiftly and brutally he could turn on individuals he now thought of as “foes”) stayed with him.
In the aftermath of his disappearance and the sudden collapse that followed, most in Arabel cowered, expecting butchery from Suzail. What they got instead was a strong garrison and street patrols, abundant food and drink, firm orders from newly-arrived Purple Dragon officers to resume their former work and to obey Azoun’s laws . . .and not much public heavy-handedness at all.
This was because Vangerdahast sent in his War Wizards, and some Highknights, to do the ‘rooting out’ of the handful of folk who still wanted to bloodily carve out independence from Cormyr. A few folk were given too much to drink and then spirited away in the wee hours, magically mind-reamed as they sobered up, truths learned and other rebels and traitors identified from their thoughts, and so it continued. Only a few individuals were quietly slain; many were offered new trade or employment opportunities by strangers (Highknights in disguise) and relocated to Suzail or even outside Cormyr, to head their lives in different directions.
To most folk in Arabel, there didn’t really seem to be much retribution at all. Gondegal’s reign ended so abruptly that it now seems more of a dream than anything else.



So saith Ed. And so we Knights found it to be, on our visits to Arabel.
love to all,
THO
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Dargoth
Great Reader

Australia
4569 Posts

Posted - 19 Apr 2005 :  05:26:56  Show Profile  Visit Dargoth's Homepage Send Dargoth a Private Message

A Question (Okay so it turned into a LOT of Questions) for Ed about Azouns Bastards and other distant legitmate Members of Cormyrs royal family.

Legitimate heirs

If Alusair and Azoun V died who would be the next legitimate air to the throne? Presumably they would back track down Azoun IVs branch of royal family tree until they found a living Heir perhaps a Cousin or even a 2nd cousin of Azoun IV. (Like they did in a movie called "King Ralph" with John Goodman)The Cormyr Royal family is very old (and should be quite large), its been going for over 13 centuries there would have to be heirs to fall back on even if they are outside the Azoun IVs branch of the Royal family

Regarding the Azouns bastards and other distant members of cormyrs royal family.

What are they all up to? Have any of them sided with factions (both inside and outside Cormyr) trying to over throw Azoun IV branch of the family?

Also you mentioned that weddings are different in the realms in that you can have a marriage that lasts for a single day, did Azoun IV or any of his randy ancestors use them to Woe their Romantic conquests "Be Queen/Princess of Cormyr for a day" etc if so where there any children from these "Legitimate one night stands"?

Thanks in advance

PS: Ed just tell the Canadian Tax Department to leave you alone or you'll sic Daurgothoth, "The Creeping Doom" on them

“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”

Emperor Sigismund

"Its good to be the King!"

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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore

USA
1081 Posts

Posted - 19 Apr 2005 :  07:44:27  Show Profile  Visit Garen Thal's Homepage Send Garen Thal a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
If Alusair and Azoun V died who would be the next legitimate air to the throne? Presumably they would back track down Azoun IVs branch of royal family tree until they found a living Heir perhaps a Cousin or even a 2nd cousin of Azoun IV. (Like they did in a movie called "King Ralph" with John Goodman)The Cormyr Royal family is very old (and should be quite large), its been going for over 13 centuries there would have to be heirs to fall back on even if they are outside the Azoun IVs branch of the Royal family
Having just recently corresponded with the leading expert on such matters, I will channel Alaphondar Emmarask for just a moment:

"The only known, legitimate claimants to the Dragon Throne of Cormyr are Azoun V (the current king) and Alusair (his aunt). Prior to the events of 1344 of Cormyr Reckoning[in what we call [i]Cormyr: A Novel[i]-GT], this group was as large as five--Azoun IV, his daughters Tanalasta and Alusair, and Azoun's cousins Thomdor and Bhereu (both third cousins from the marriage of Princess Pelara, daughter of Dhalmass, to the merchant Myrton Ammaeth). There are a few periods in Cormyr's history when things got murky (the Thronestrife, for instance), but, barring possible exceptions that we know not of--no more than one or two, mindst thou--every legitimate heir of the house Obarskyr for more than a thousand years is accounted for in the royal rolls.

In terms of law, the rule of Cormyr should fall to one of the royal Silver houses (Crownsilver, Truesilver, and Huntsilver, in order of precedence), as these are the families that can trace their origins to relations--by blood or marriage--to Faerlthann Obarskyr and his father Ondeth."
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
4907 Posts

Posted - 19 Apr 2005 :  08:02:24  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message
That's why Troy Denning should never have done away with the Sleeping Sword and the Lords Who Sleep. We could always have had a young Obarskyr prince among their number, in 'reserve'.

Of course, if the Obarskyr line did die out in Cormyr, we might see the re-appearance of the line of Vaerom Obarskyr, Faerlthann's brother. He fled Impiltur, banished into exile with his sons, after the defeat of Morlorn "the Usurper" (whom the Obarskyrs in Impiltur had backed and assisted in gaining the throne in hopes of being elevated to the nobility like their cousins across the Inner Sea) and was made less than welcome in the Forest Kingdom when they arrived there. They headed for Westgate and parts south as I recall ...

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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