Candlekeep Forum
Candlekeep Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Realmslore
 Chamber of Sages
 Questions for Ed Greenwood (2005)
 New Topic  Topic Locked
 Printer Friendly
Previous Page | Next Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 84

Kentinal
Great Reader

4291 Posts

Posted - 18 Mar 2005 :  02:13:21  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Jerryd

And I don't believe my arguments have been shifting - I've been saying the same things all along, just perhaps trying to say the same thing in a different way to clarify my meaning and intent.


your arguments have not changed. you say you are right and everyone else is wrong.
quote:


My style of discussion may not be to everyone's taste and I may be judged as being stubborn, pedantic, confrontational, nit-picky or obsessive over minutiae and detail - or even "unfair" (although I'd disupte that last judgement) - but it's not a style I plan to change because it serves my needs. Now that I've explained my discussion style and the reasons for it, though, we don't need to get into an extended discussion about it since it's not Realms relevant.




You can dispute the opinions of others, you certainly already have. you rejected my police anaogy out of hand. You have rejected disfuntional people achieving power positions though facts certainly show they have in history. You dismiss most couter points because in your belief they will not work. That you personaly do not believe they would every work. That your conception of how it works appears to you the only way it can work.

Yes some of us indeed might consider you
quote:
being stubborn, pedantic, confrontational, nit-picky or obsessive over minutiae and detail - or even "unfair"


Now if we are wrong about you it would help to see you even conceed one point on how the War Wizards should work, without a massive text post that repeats all the things you have not conceeded because of your belief.

Systems do work far more chaotic in real world then you appear to believe and in fantasy world the few checks and balances are far more chaotic.

Go to Top of Page

Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore

USA
1081 Posts

Posted - 18 Mar 2005 :  02:59:34  Show Profile  Visit Garen Thal's Homepage Send Garen Thal a Private Message
I am going to humbly ask--nay, beg--that all parties please stop. Arguing the methods of each other's argumentation is a horrible waste of everyone's time and energy, and I am sure that every scribe here at Candlekeep would much prefer to spend less time quibbling and more time learning, discussing and understanding the Realms.
Go to Top of Page

Melfius
Senior Scribe

USA
516 Posts

Posted - 18 Mar 2005 :  03:10:03  Show Profile  Visit Melfius's Homepage  Send Melfius an AOL message Send Melfius a Private Message
Please ignore the following statements. Sometimes, a guy just has to spout...

Basically, Jerryd, what you need to consider is the rest of us. A continuous harangue of Ed could result in his making a decision to discontinue posting here. This is what is most irritating to us.

Secondly, we all agree that your position has not changed and shows no intention of ever changing. You have your views/beliefs - fine. So be it. No one is going to tell you that you have to change them. But when you argue to the point where it is clear you want others to change their views to match yours, that our opinions are wrong, that's where it becomes a useless arguement. Live and let live.

The bottom line is this: Ed created the Realms. He created the War Wizards. They are, for all intents and purposes, his intellectual property to do with as he sees fit (well, with the exception of WotC's veto-power ). If you don't agree with his decisions, you are more than welcome to change them in your campaigns. You are even encouraged to do so! Go forth and prosper, and all that.

But if the man wants to make the War Wizards a band of troubadors travelling Cormyr and selling snake oil to the local rubes, he can. It's his sandbox, and he can kick over everyone's castles if he wants to.

Offer your opinions, we welcome them with open arms. But don't argue them as fact.

Now I'll put the soapbox back where I found it, and promptly submit myself to Alaundo for my lashings.

Please turn your ignore filters off now, I'll try and get things back on topic:

Ed! How are you doing? Great to hear from you again with such wonderful Realmslore! Quick question - Do you plan on attending this year's Origins?

Happy St. Patty's Day, all!

Melfius, Pixie-Priest of Puck - Head Chef, The Faerie Kitchen, Candlekeep Inn
"What's in his pockets, besides me?"
Read a tale of my earlier days! - Happiness Comes in Small Packages

Edited by - Melfius on 18 Mar 2005 03:14:02
Go to Top of Page

SiriusBlack
Great Reader

USA
5517 Posts

Posted - 18 Mar 2005 :  03:19:59  Show Profile  Visit SiriusBlack's Homepage Send SiriusBlack a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Melfius
Basically, Jerryd, what you need to consider is the rest of us. A continuous harangue of Ed could result in his making a decision to discontinue posting here. This is what is most irritating to us.



I'd be very surprised if that happened. EG and THO has shown too great a degree of class and maturity to allow something like this to discontinue the posts in this thread. If people are having that big a problem with Jerryd's posts, then it's time to take it to a moderator and resolve it there. That's why the moderators get paid the big bucks just like the authors/game designers.
Go to Top of Page

Melfius
Senior Scribe

USA
516 Posts

Posted - 18 Mar 2005 :  03:29:44  Show Profile  Visit Melfius's Homepage  Send Melfius an AOL message Send Melfius a Private Message
Wait a minute! Moderators get PAID?!?!

Melfius, Pixie-Priest of Puck - Head Chef, The Faerie Kitchen, Candlekeep Inn
"What's in his pockets, besides me?"
Read a tale of my earlier days! - Happiness Comes in Small Packages
Go to Top of Page

George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
4887 Posts

Posted - 18 Mar 2005 :  03:57:41  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message
Oh yeah, all the time. Just like FR design and development assistants.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
Go to Top of Page

SiriusBlack
Great Reader

USA
5517 Posts

Posted - 18 Mar 2005 :  04:04:40  Show Profile  Visit SiriusBlack's Homepage Send SiriusBlack a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Oh yeah, all the time. Just like FR design and development assistants.



Actually in all seriousness, before leaving the WOTC boards (Gosh, that sounds like I'm describing a combat zone), in private and public communications with some moderators, I got the impression that they were paid.

Thus, I'm sure the moderators here are also getting direct deposits or kick backs under the table.
Go to Top of Page

Melfius
Senior Scribe

USA
516 Posts

Posted - 18 Mar 2005 :  04:06:12  Show Profile  Visit Melfius's Homepage  Send Melfius an AOL message Send Melfius a Private Message
Well, I'm not.

Guess just being a chef ain't enough.

Melfius, Pixie-Priest of Puck - Head Chef, The Faerie Kitchen, Candlekeep Inn
"What's in his pockets, besides me?"
Read a tale of my earlier days! - Happiness Comes in Small Packages
Go to Top of Page

The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5041 Posts

Posted - 18 Mar 2005 :  04:30:28  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Hello, all. Ed replies to Jerryd’s latest 2-part War Wizards post:



Well, Jerryd, I believe I’ve reached the “agree to disagree” stage with you.
There’s simply no point in going on debating if you’re going to refute every point I make by defining terms differently than I do and then triumphantly concluding that I’m wrong about this or that “by definition.” It adds nothing to shared enjoyment of the Realms, and such an approach falls far short of convincing me. However, I’ll reply to certain of your points, because some of your assertions shouldn’t be left unchallenged in the records all scribes can peruse.
You post: “Suppose for a moment the Harpers never existed, and Vangey and his War Wizards remain as-is and faced all the same challenges. Could Vangey and the War Wizards have handled all those challenges over the years entirely on their own and made Cormyr the same kind of place it is depicted as? Or would they have failed and fallen to defeat? In my opinion, this must be judged before one can call Vangey and the War Wizards "successful".”
Sorry, Jerryd, but I disagree. There is NO group, policy, or individual in either the Realms or the real world that could ever be judged “successful” through this approach, because anyone can always ask unanswerable hypothetical “but what if” (Blucher had arrived later on the battlefield, or Mary the First hadn’t died when she did, or Hitler had successfully invaded and conquered England or hadn’t opened the two-front war, or the United States had failed in its War of Independence, or the Plantagenets hadn’t given way to the Tudors, or Lincoln hadn’t been assassinated) questions - - questions none of us can ever really know the answer to. Just as you can’t learn the answer to the one you’ve posed, because history (imaginary, for the Realms, or “real,” for our real world) didn’t turn out that way. So we’re really talking, when you say “judged” successful, in applying your opinions of success to the War Wizards (or various scribes applying their opinions, and debating it). I could just as easily say: “We must consider if Vangerdahast and a bunch of other guys in robes could together have handled all those challenges over the years if there was no magic in the Realms. Then and only then can we decide if we’ll call them successful.” By the gods, Jerry, you’ve created the ultimate straw man!
By all means let’s discuss this, but leave your “successful” (or not) judgement out of it. To start the discussion, I’ll say this: as the ultimate expert on Cormyr, Vangerdahast, and the War Wizards, it’s MY firm opinion that they would have handled those challenges. Far more messily, with many unintended and “we-got-there-too-late” casualties, and garnering a far more unsavoury reputation for themselves in the process, but yes, they would have. There: they’re successful. In my judgement, of course. Dispute it by all means, but let’s be very clear about what you’re doing: pitting your opinion, not any absolute or correct judgement, against my opinion.
And I’m not going to back down in my belief that my opinions in these matters are right. By all means “organize” things however you’d like in your own campaign or homebrew world, but please don’t expect me to accept them in the published Realms.
You post: “As far as I'm concerned, if a manager requires the intervention of outside agencies to get the job done and keep things going smoothly, then he ISN'T succeeding.”
Again, there’s success and success. Recall the football quotation about winning? “It’s the ONLY thing.” Well, Vangey ‘won,’ holding Cormyr together and shaping it to his aims and preferences, ergo he was successful. “Success” is a ‘value judgement’ that can differ markedly depending on who’s applying it. Vangey achieved what he set out to do.
To posit a real-world example: American historians, if they mention the so-called War of 1812 at all, always deem it a “victory” for the American side. If they think about why they hold that opinion at all, they point to concessions wrung out of Britain that officially “won” them long-disputed territory (much of Wisconsin and Michigan’s northern peninsula). Militarily, it was a laughable comedy of errors on both sides, but Canadians firmly consider it a “victory” for THEIR side. Why? Because the war began with the expressed intent on the part of the invading Americans to conquer the “northern British colonies on the continent” (Canada) and make them American territory. When it all ended, they hadn’t done that, and the Canadians who’d fought them still had their own farms and so on that weren’t part of America. By their standards, “success.”
Vangerdahast set out to make Cormyr a stronger realm, make the War Wizards his personal force or tool in accomplishing that, and shaping Cormyr to be the way he wanted it to be. All of these things he accomplished, retiring on his terms when he wanted to. You can argue as to that being success or not, but (being as you cite MCI and business examples) in business, it’s often said “Results matter.” Vangey got results.
Which brings us back to exactly what I’ve been trying to explore with Vangey (NOT answer definitively, note, but leave to all readers to make their own judgements on): “Do the ends justify the means?”
You go on to post: “A "poor leader" is NOT a success! If Vangey is a poor leader, then he's a failure BY DEFINITION!”
Oh? We were discussing being a MANAGER here, not a leader. Azoun IV is the “leader.”
You go on to post: “If the War Wizards institution is as a whole successful (bearing in mind the Harper discussion and my definition of success above) then it can only be DESPITE Vangey, not because of him”
Oh? Before Vangey came along, the War Wizards had become a group of leaderless individuals doing just as they (individually or in little cabals of buddies) decided, not truly controlled by, or loyal to, the realm, the Crown, or any Court official. I’d say the War Wizards who prevented a massacre in Arabel during the war against the Devil Dragon and defeated dozens of attempts on Azoun’s life, solved more than one murder mystery (see my story “The Grinning Ghost of Taverton Hall” in REALMS OF MYSTERY), and so on, existed as an organization BECAUSE of Vangey, rather than despite him.
. . .



THO here, splitting Ed’s reply into two posts because of the post-length limit. I decided to break at the same place Jerryd did. More immediately . . .
Go to Top of Page

The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5041 Posts

Posted - 18 Mar 2005 :  04:40:35  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
And here is Ed’s reply to Jerryd, Part Two:



You then posted a (very limited) dictionary definition of “organization” and use it to justify your judgement of “organization.” Well, two can play that game, so I’ll respond with just one passage from a Pocket Oxford (not even the Unabridged, which offers a FAR broader scope for the word “organization”): “bring into working order.” That’s exactly what Vangerdahast did: inherit a bunch of War Wizards who were “doing their own thing” and establish a “working order” on them: his own. “Report to me, I’ll give you commands, and I’ll organize, and continually re-organize, you into task groups.” Being as that’s what most intelligence services do in the modern world, to dismiss that TYPE of organization as not falling within the definition of organization means you’re dismissing all of them as being “disorganized.” You’ll probably counter this by saying that no, all of those real-world organizations have a strict hierarchy, but SO DO THE WAR WIZARDS UNDER VANGEY! He’s boss, and under him is Laspeera, who’s designated to speak with his authority. Also under him, reporting directly, are the side-branch of ‘internal police’ investigators (the alarphons), the Council (who deal with the formal side of things, and interface with the courtiers and Heralds), and all of the other War Wizards. This IS organization. It’s just a very ‘flat’ organizational structure, without a lot of levels of “middle management.”
Of course, as long as you refuse to accept that, we’re indeed stuck at agreeing to disagree - - because I in turn refuse to accept your narrower definition of “organization.”
You post: “Organization and moment-to-moment fluidity are mutually exclusive.” Only by your self-admittedly clear-cut, black-and-white preferences. Garen Thal correctly compared the War Wizards to fraternal organizations (clubs, the Rotary, the Kinsmen, the Legion, etc.), and many of them, in our modern real world, while clinging to their own internal rules, pomp and ceremony, do in fact work in ever-changing sub-groups (“task forces” and “committees” and “projects”) to deal with specific local problems and concerns (raising money for wheelchairs, putting in crosswalks, settling disputes over use of a community hall, providing meals for seniors; the aims may be similar from place to place and even country to country, but the local specifics of how they are carried out vary markedly). And this very ever-changing sub-group work is just what the War Wizards do (remember, we’re only talking of 800 individuals here, NOT a huge, unwieldy group).
You post: “in my opinion it's unquestionable that the War Wizards would be more effective with a hierarchical structure than without one even if Vangey didn't have the sense to realize it.”
I fully agree with you. They would be. However, we’re not talking “most effective” or even ‘most efficient,’ here. The most effective way for, say, the United States to further “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness” would be to freely and equally provide FULL medical examinations and treatment to every last citizen [oh, and never go to war or allow guns in society] (life), and have no laws or police or military whatsoever (liberty). (I’ll leave the happiness element out of debate because it’s so personal and therefore varied.) Yet strangely enough, that’s not what we find when we look at the United States. Also, the most efficient distribution of agrarian resources (by which I mean edible food, NOT money) is the communal one (communes, or what tends to get labelled “socialism” or “communism”). Yet a purely communal society doesn’t exist in the world; attempts to run communes are always small in population, chaotic, and tend to be unstable or short-lived (the “human factor” twisting theoretical or even on-paper efficiency). I could go on to cite other examples for pages and pages, just off the top of my head. Clearly, then, things in the real world aren’t always established as (or don’t always turn out to be, as they develop and evolve) whatever’s most effective or most efficient. As I said to you in a previous post, I think the War Wizards under Caladnei will BECOME hierarchically organized, because she’s not the paranoid micromanager that Vangey was (and because Filfaeril and Alusair certainly don’t want another Vangey arising to run the War Wizards if anything happens to Filfaeril).
You post: “These reasons are why I persist in saying that left to their own devices the Vangey and the War Wizards as you've portrayed them would collapse into an ineffective mess in relatively short order.”
Only because of the way you choose to view Vangerdahast, the War Wizards, and Cormyr. I obviously believe differently, and just as obviously have published all sorts of details about these three elements of the Realms, down the years, that make it clear that the War Wizards HAVEN’T collapsed (for whatever reasons). That’s “established Realms history,” coming from the same source that you first learned about the War Wizards from.
This strikes me as not being very different from looking at your own hands, and saying, “Yup, these are my hands. Four fingers and - - well, I don’t believe in thumbs, so that fifth digit I can clearly see there isn’t a thumb. In fact, it doesn’t exist at all. I’ll just ignore it.” Now, that’s fine if you want to live under those conditions, but you’ve taken a step farther that I don’t find acceptable: telling all the rest of us, “I don’t have thumbs, and none of you do either! Those aren’t thumbs! You’re all wrong about this!”
You post: “I would far prefer to view the War Wizards as being truly successful”
Good, because they ARE truly successful. They have weeded out traitors and infiltrators among the populace, manipulated politics and public opinion, and undertaken many other activities with GREAT effectiveness to help create a Cormyr that is largely loyal and cohesive (Realms coverage tends to look for PC roleplaying opportunities, and hence focus on treasonous nobles, rebels in Arabel and Marsember, and agents of Sembia, Westgate, et cetera, but if the crofters and ‘just plain folk’ of Cormyr WEREN’T loyal to the Crown, those malcontent elements would have succeeded in tearing asunder the realm long ago).
You post: “Given the many and varied tasks charged to the War Wizards, if they are to be successful (by my definition) they MUST be organized (by my definition) and indeed even somewhat hierarchical.”
Can’t argue with this circular logic. If you insist on defining the terms, then (ahem, by definition) the only way those terms can be satisfied is . . . yes, on your terms. However, I DON’T accept your terms, or even your “right” to sit in judgement on my creations and the reasoning behind them. Judge for yourself and hold your own opinions, certainly. Try to deem me “wrong” and my views about the War Wizards and Vangerdahast mistaken, not at all.
You post: “I could accept your characterization of Vangey IF I completely change overall view I had of him before this discussion. I had thought of him as primarily a hero - a man of Good - who had in action some rough edges to him in action. Your depiction of him is definitely not heroic, though - it is of a villain who had deluded himself into thinking he was good simply because he pursued good goals, but who eventually realized he wasn't good and with that bitter self-discovery stepped down in self-disillusionment.”
If you can truly hold that view after reading the words of mine (“I see Vangey as beginning his career as eager and zealous, being hardened into a grimly practical veteran of Court intrigues and nobles’ traps who slowly becomes obsessed with his vision of Cormyr at all costs, convinces himself that the end justifies all means, and then in the twilight of his years begins to mellow and admit three things: that there are now some things he WON’T do in the name of The Dream; that he’s been wrong about a lot of things and in his deeds made many errors, not a few little ‘so what’ ones; and that he’s overstepped the bounds of what’s best for the realm while deluding himself that he wasn’t, and that it’s best if he remove himself from authority, in a manner least damaging to the realm (to avoid a power struggle, being as he came to his senses just before the war with the Devil Dragon and the loss of Azoun)”) you quoted just above them, Jerry, I see no point in continuing this discussion at all. Life (and roleplaying: that’s why the game has levels and character advancement) postulates character DEVELOPMENT and change, not clear-cut “He is evil, was born evil, and always shall be evil” and “Yonder knight is good, can never be anything but good.”
Your insistence on now calling Vangerdahast a “deluded villain” tells me we view the Realms on two entirely different levels. I’m trying to explore a good man suffering the effects of “absolute power corrupts absolutely,” and in the end realizing it, and you’re operating on the assumption that Vangerdahast has an immutable evil, villainous core and merely wore convenient delusional masks to further his career. That view of yours is flawed, by your own words, because the (correct) “MORAL exhaustion and disillusionment” you mention isn’t something a villain would ever feel. He might say, “Ah! What a self-deluding noble fool I’ve been, when I could have been an out-and-out tyrant and avoided a LOT of hard work manipulating people! I’ve wasted so much TIME!” but he WOULDN’T feel any anguish on moral grounds. Vangerdahast clearly does (as certain scenes in ELMINSTER’S DAUGHTER show clearly, if briefly, and several scenes in DEATH OF THE DRAGON hint at).
You post: “You see, the reason I am a fan of Cormyr is because I idealized the place. Insofar as what fits within a renaissance-style world Cormyr is the "good kingdom". That contextually idealized view of Cormyr of course also applied to the institutions that defended it. If Cormyr is the "good kingdom", then the Purple Dragons and War Wizards were the "good defenders" who were successful (by MY definition) - competent, efficient, and (for the most part and to varying degrees) decent.”
Well, Jerry, I created Cormyr to be the shining good kingdom (so much so that a TSR designer, years ago, wrote an internal memo saying it was TOO good “a happy shiny place” and in his opinion had to be destroyed), and I like to think of it as you do, too. But I think it shines much more brightly if it ALSO seems real, not cardboard and simplistic. That means ‘human nature’ foibles, screwups, tensions, and conflicts (all things very much desired by TSR and now WotC games designers and book editors for their own creative needs, not to mention players and DMs!). To accept Cormyr as “the good place” doesn’t necessarily mean one has to accept all of its institutions as perfect and beyond reproach. In fact, that’s static “death” to a DM, novel writer, or game designer: the only ways one can go from there are decadence/decay (from within) or destruction (by invaders).
I have said all along that the published lore about Cormyr has been insufficient, and can lead readers into assumptions about Cormyr that are entirely correct on the scanty evidence they have to go on, but incorrect when one looks at the underlying picture. That’s one of the reasons I’m still around, decades after gamers first started to see published wisps and hints of the Realms, to fill in details and provide more lore - - one of the reasons I answer queries here.
You post: “Perhaps my idealization of (and cheerleading for) Cormyr is excessive in comparison to your own and has too greatly affected my perspective, but for my own part I simply cannot understand WHY when you created the War Wizards you would deliberately choose to portray them as sub-optimal and seriously less effective on their own then they really needed to be. If I were going to portray a place as the "bright shining place" then I would make the institutions of that place as optimal as I could within the context of the overall style of the world (in this case being roughly Renaissance).”
No, I don’t think anybody’s a wilder and more persistent cheerleader for Cormyr than I am. I have, after all, furiously defended it during two internal TSR debates about smashing it. I’ve explained why I chose to portray the War Wizards as “sub-optimal” several times, but I’ll underscore it again: realism, Jerry. Realism. In real world situations, tensions and growth (which give the D&D game its maximum play possibilities, something built into the published Realms from the first, and nurtured ever since) arise out of lands, organizations, laws, customs, and practises NOT being optimal, and persons disagreeing on how things should be and striving to change them.
To put it as Foxhelm did recently: that may not be the green house you’d like, but it’s the white house I built. The house you say you like so much.
By all means detail the War Wizards however you’d like for your own campaign. Just don’t expect me to budge from my views about them when you disagree with the way I’ve portrayed them.
I’d still like to see how you think Caladnei’s War Wizards SHOULD be organized, rather than reading post after post from you about how I’ve got Vangey’s War Wizards ‘wrong.’
I’m personally dismayed by how your own stated preference for clear-cut and black-and-white has, as you say, forced you to abandon your view of Vangey as an essentially heroic figure because of what I’ve revealed about him, and swing over to seeing him as a “deluded villain.” There’s such a lot of ‘character room’ between a hero who’s rough around the edges and a deluded villain, and the vast majority of Realms characters, like Vangey, are sitting in that character room. It’s a BIG chamber, with a LOT of people in it. If you never enter it, you’re missing most of the Realms.


And on other matters:
Melfius, I wish I could attend Origins. For one thing, I hear there’s a nifty Calliope trophy with my name on it (from last year) that even comes with a dinner! However, I can’t afford either the time off work from the library, or the money such a trip would cost me. Coins are very short up here right now (I’m a game designer and a writer, remember, no longer a steady-salaried wage-slave). So I’m afraid not. I WILL make it to GenCon Indy, barring unforeseen disasters, but that’ll probably be my only “big trip” this year. No Worldcon, no vacations, just a few local “day-drive” conventions.

thom, most tallhouses (homes, not rooming houses or shops) are several rooms ‘deep.’ Think: front door, opening into: full-width-of-building lobby/ ‘front room,’ opening into: passage down one side or other of interior, that in turn opens into a series of rooms or closets or stairs up, and usually ending in a full-width kitchen at the back (on the ground floor). So, yes, the passage flanks a series of (admittedly cramped) rooms.


So saith Ed. Who will return with more Realmslore on the morrow.
love to all,
THO
Go to Top of Page

Mareka
Learned Scribe

Canada
125 Posts

Posted - 18 Mar 2005 :  05:49:45  Show Profile  Visit Mareka's Homepage Send Mareka a Private Message
The first sources I read about Cormyr left me with the impression that it was a somewhat too perfect. I didn't like that version of Cormyr at all, because it seemed one dimensional. But recently, I've taken another look at it, mostly due to this discussion between Mr. Greenwood and JerryD. I have gained a whole new respect for Cormyr and Vangerderhast now. I love Vangy's moral issues and Cormyr's flaws.
Go to Top of Page

SiriusBlack
Great Reader

USA
5517 Posts

Posted - 18 Mar 2005 :  06:39:54  Show Profile  Visit SiriusBlack's Homepage Send SiriusBlack a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Mareka

The first sources I read about Cormyr left me with the impression that it was a somewhat too perfect.



I've heard that sentiment expressed before. I take it you've never read Cormyr: A Novel. One read through that novel will show you Cormyr has more than a fair share of dark little dirty secrets.

And for that I thank the authors.
Go to Top of Page

Alaundo
Head Moderator
Admin

United Kingdom
5582 Posts

Posted - 18 Mar 2005 :  09:18:12  Show Profile  Visit Alaundo's Homepage  Click to see Alaundo's MSN Messenger address Send Alaundo a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Melfius

Wait a minute! Moderators get PAID?!?!



Well met

Not at all, Melfius, not at all. Move along, there is nothing to see here

Indeed, apologies for the late arrival (something always seems to happen when i'm away from the halls for a time ).

This has certainly gone far enough and it's quite clear that there will never be an agreement on this particular matter, and therefore should stay as is.

Now, back to the meaty Realmslore, let's just stay aware from THAT particular subject for now

Alaundo
Candlekeep Forums Head Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct


An Introduction to Candlekeep - by Ed Greenwood
The Candlekeep Compendium - Tomes of Realmslore penned by Scribes of Candlekeep
Go to Top of Page

MW Turnage
Acolyte

USA
8 Posts

Posted - 18 Mar 2005 :  10:31:13  Show Profile  Visit MW Turnage's Homepage Send MW Turnage a Private Message
Well met, all.

I'm going to finally take the opportunity to delurk and ask some (hopefully) simple and quick questions about Daggerdale and Randall Morn:

1) Aside from FRQ3's Colderan (their great-grandfather), have either of Randall and Silver Morn's parents been named?

2) I have a snippet by Eric Boyd (from one of the Realms lists of the past decade) that states that Randall arranged a marriage between Silver and one of the Cormaerils. Is this official Realmslore, and if so, what is her husband's name (I gathered 'Thracian' from Realms-L, and went with that IMC, but couldn't find a source for it).

3) If Silver's husband is indeed a Cormaeril, what does that imply for the couple after the events of Cormyr: The Novel? Pressure from the family to bear an heir that could take the Daggerdale throne, in an attempt to recoup the family's losses in a different (albeit smaller) kingdom?

4) What would the affect be on Randall? Pressure to take a wife and bear an heir himself to keep his in-laws from bumping him off in favor of a niece or nephew? A weakening of ties with Cormyr given a familial relationship with Azoun's would-be assasins?

5) The first Realms set mentions that Randall explicitly trusts on his sister (obvious), Florin and Mourngrym (also obvious given the Knight's activities in the area), and Mirt, Durnan and Khelben(!). Now, above and beyond the idea of anyone explicitly trusting Khelben, there's got to be a story in how he came to trust the three of them. Will we ever see it?

5) Finally, in Shadows of Doom, Elminster expressly asks Storm to watch over Randall by name, singling him out over many of El's other responsibilities and projects. Why? Is it a 'professional' interest due to some importance of Randall and Daggerdale to the future of the area, or is it a personal interest?

(Fingers crossed that none of these fall into NDA territory)

Mark
Go to Top of Page

Alaundo
Head Moderator
Admin

United Kingdom
5582 Posts

Posted - 18 Mar 2005 :  11:18:40  Show Profile  Visit Alaundo's Homepage  Click to see Alaundo's MSN Messenger address Send Alaundo a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Oh yeah, all the time. Just like FR design and development assistants.



Actually in all seriousness, before leaving the WOTC boards (Gosh, that sounds like I'm describing a combat zone), in private and public communications with some moderators, I got the impression that they were paid.

Thus, I'm sure the moderators here are also getting direct deposits or kick backs under the table.



Well met

Not at all, Sirius. On official boards...maybe, but certainly not at Candlekeep. In fact, it costs a fair amount to be here myself and keep this library up and running. However, my love of the Realms and of the pleasure of having ye all share the lore makes it very worthwhile Still, enough said, and back to the Realmslore...

Alaundo
Candlekeep Forums Head Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct


An Introduction to Candlekeep - by Ed Greenwood
The Candlekeep Compendium - Tomes of Realmslore penned by Scribes of Candlekeep
Go to Top of Page

thom
Seeker

USA
69 Posts

Posted - 18 Mar 2005 :  15:56:30  Show Profile  Visit thom's Homepage Send thom a Private Message
THANK YE kindly, for such a quick response Ed! (and to THO for forwarding it to him so promptly). And to Kentinal for chiming in...

So, is it reasonable to guess that shops or rooming houses have a similar setup where the passage down the side of the tallhouse opens into the "admittedly cramped" rented rooms? Which brings up a lighting issue; if these tallhouses are crammed up against each other, those rooms in the center of the floor must get pretty dark and not very well ventilated! Or are the tallhouse far enough apart that windows could be in these rooms?
Go to Top of Page

The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5041 Posts

Posted - 18 Mar 2005 :  16:09:14  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Yes, I must say that when it comes to “kick backs under the table,” the male players in the original Realms campaign long ago asked me to stop wearing my point-toed, stiletto-heel boots. I can’t IMAGINE why.

Alaundo, I just want to add one postscript from Ed, not specifically re. Jerryd but about a viewpoint he raised during their discussions:
Ed did not mean to imply there’s anything at all wrong with WANTING things to be clear-cut and/or black and white. Imposing our own will on the world and ordering things the way we want them to be is a basic human urge, and a lot of D&D players and DMs derive great satisfaction in “achieving things” in the fantasy settings they play in that they just can never hope to do in the real world. Ed wanted Jerryd to know that the ‘greyness’ is a deliberate design direction that he has to push towards, because his natural tendency is, yes, to tidy and sort and ‘shift things’ to be the way he wants them to be.

On other matters: great questions, MW Turnage: I’ve sent them off to Ed, and I’m sure we’ll get rich replies (in time: a lot of answers are piling up).

thom, I can answer your latest myself: the tallhouses are usually touching, or have at most a four-foot-max-width dark alleyway between them. So there’s no room for outside-wall windows. However, the rooms along the passage have what we would call “fanlight” windows above their ‘onto the passage’ doors, and many of them have windows opening into small ‘light shafts’ that descend from the roof (covered by gratings, up top) down to the lower floors or even into the cellars (if the latter, there’ll be a ‘rain roof’ overhood).
Shops usually don’t have a passage on the ground floor, but a separate (back, usually) entrance for the upper floors, so the shop has full-building-width rooms, opening one into another as one goes back through the building, until the inevitable ‘back room’ opens onto the shared stairwell going up to the upper floors. A few also have trapdoors offering emergency (escape-fire) access from above down into the shop.
Upper floors usually have a "half-passage" running from the backstair landing forward along one interior outside wall past two or three rented rooms, to end in a door into a full-tallhouse-width 'front room.'

love to all,
THO
Go to Top of Page

thom
Seeker

USA
69 Posts

Posted - 18 Mar 2005 :  17:34:09  Show Profile  Visit thom's Homepage Send thom a Private Message
Wow! That was fast THO - thanks so much! I think I understand the design much better now.

Are the tallhouses Torm owns mostly rentals, except for the luxurious one he always keeps ready for himself? And how does he trust someone enough to run all this when he's away? I ask because my players have wanted to do something similar to this and weren't sure how to protect themselves from being ripped off.

As an aside on our good Sembian Melvos, I'm sure Ed wrote 3-4 times as much as WOTC will actually use - is it possible he could let slip more tidbits after the column finishes its run? I've already started pages of notes on what my NPC merchants et al could be up to just based on what hes's written so far!

Thanks for all the good answers THO, and Ed!

Go to Top of Page

Melfius
Senior Scribe

USA
516 Posts

Posted - 18 Mar 2005 :  17:55:03  Show Profile  Visit Melfius's Homepage  Send Melfius an AOL message Send Melfius a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Alaundo

quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Oh yeah, all the time. Just like FR design and development assistants.



Actually in all seriousness, before leaving the WOTC boards (Gosh, that sounds like I'm describing a combat zone), in private and public communications with some moderators, I got the impression that they were paid.

Thus, I'm sure the moderators here are also getting direct deposits or kick backs under the table.



Well met

Not at all, Sirius. On official boards...maybe, but certainly not at Candlekeep. In fact, it costs a fair amount to be here myself and keep this library up and running. However, my love of the Realms and of the pleasure of having ye all share the lore makes it very worthwhile Still, enough said, and back to the Realmslore...



Well, in all honetsy, I must say that it is an honor and a privledge to be a moderator here, even for just my small corner of Candlekeep.

Melfius, Pixie-Priest of Puck - Head Chef, The Faerie Kitchen, Candlekeep Inn
"What's in his pockets, besides me?"
Read a tale of my earlier days! - Happiness Comes in Small Packages
Go to Top of Page

SiriusBlack
Great Reader

USA
5517 Posts

Posted - 18 Mar 2005 :  17:57:52  Show Profile  Visit SiriusBlack's Homepage Send SiriusBlack a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

Yes, I must say that when it comes to “kick backs under the table,” the male players in the original Realms campaign long ago asked me to stop wearing my point-toed, stiletto-heel boots. I can’t IMAGINE why.



Thanks THO for recognizing the facetious comment. I thought everyone would get it, but what's that old saying, if you want to be obvious use a sledgehammer, but be careful, that just turns some brains further into mush.

As for your visual, I can only imagine your gaming sessions...

"I told you, tap once with your boots if you want me to cast a spell and twice if you don't. Why did you crush your heel down on my toes?"

"Because you took too long casting the damn spell."

Hugs again for being a wonderful messenger through the good, bad, and weird times.

SB
Go to Top of Page

The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5041 Posts

Posted - 19 Mar 2005 :  01:51:59  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Hello, all. My turn to answer a few scribes’ queries (which in this case, largely means giving you Ed’s lore and replies in my own words).

First, to George Krashos: Torm is a brilliant and sarcastic man in real life (Victor Selby, a lawyer like yourself), but when he’s playing Torm (like many of us), he does and says the things he’d never - - quite - - dare do in real life. In other words, he ‘thinks cheeky’ all the time, but he doesn’t SAY what he’s thinking or what he might do if there were no consequences, unless he’s playing Torm.

kuje31, only moneylenders, tax collectors, and certain sages and scribes in the Realms use “the fifth day of [month] in the Year of . . .” dating. Of course, WotC game designers, fiction writers, and a lot of us gamers have passing need for such precision, too (recall Ms. Fonstad’s “distances detective work” in the print FR Atlas?), so you’ll see it a lot in recently published products.
In the Realms, MOST folk (outside of courts and the ranks of guilds and merchants) never need more than “early in Eleint, in the year the wolves came,” although when dealing with courtiers, military recruiters, and tax officials, a specific year-date is always necessary. And most folk remember and record family births, deaths, and weddings like this: “the sixth day after Greengrass, in 1372” or “the seventh day into Uktar, of 1351” (with the “DR” being assumed, and all other year-numbering systems being designated, if used).
Certainly, for our real-world purposes, gamers prefer a precise day of a month of a year, but no, many Realms dates ARE as imprecise as given above. Dwarves in the Realms, mind you, seem to prefer full day-month-year (as do almost all courtiers, merchants, guilds, and anyone else entering into contracts or recorded loans).

thom, you’re quite welcome. Ed tells me he was very careful NOT to overwrite reams and reams of stuff WotC would have to cut (although some of the columns have ‘crept,’ especially in his last nine, wherein he ‘cheated’ with increasingly-longer footnotes), but he’ll be happy to expand on matters, here, when the Sembian 8-column run finishes, by answering specific questions scribes put to him in this thread. As you can tell, Ed’s “using” Melvos to detail what current Sembian life is like.
As for renting out tallhouses: nice Sembians build a loyal group of servants by treating them well and financially rewarding them with things they can never afford on their own, and nasty ones ‘bind’ servants to their service by blackmail, buying up debts in order to get the slave-like service of the debtors, and by other coercive means (including keeping slaves, keeping drug addicts for which the master is the only source of drugs, literal hobbling [short chains attached to wrist-cuffs, or ankle-cuffs] plus flogging, and so on). The intent is to end up with folk you can trust to obey you, because anyone merely hired (who has no personal loyalty) tends to be corruptible in Sembia: they can be ‘bought away’ from perforning properly for you by someone slipping them a few more coins than you give them as salary or under contract.
The vast majority of Sembians have too little time and money to play this game, and so hire ‘factors’ (trade agents) or ‘stansards’ (who are a little bit bodyguard, a little bit property guard, a little bit bailiff, a little bit rent collector, and a little bit errand-runner). Stansards are usually physically strong outlanders, often not human or pureblood human, who make good coin by offering trustworthy performance. (Priests of some faiths also offer this service.) Under Sembian law, they’re required to furnish full name and contact information of their ‘last twelve’ current and preceding Sembian patrons to anyone they ‘enter into bond’ with (any new client), and give the client a tenday to contact such references and decide whether or not to ‘seal the bond.’ Typically, a client pays the stansard 1 cp for this list (obviously, stansards must be able to read and write, and must also pay an annual tax). Only the wealthy can afford to keep factors or stansards on staff, because an independent can command 12 gp/day for exclusive service.
Collecting rents, inspecting rental properties, evicting tenants, squatters, and undesirables, and keeping household goods secure in the absence of a client are typical stansard duties. Recent rumor: beware dopplegangers slaying stansards and taking their places, because they WON’T remain trustworthy!

SiriusBlack, hugs right back. And yes, I really have promised not to wear boots (usually not a problem; we’re either in sock feet in Ed’s living room or barefoot or even bare-everything up at Ed’s cottage) during play sessions. Also, no more sharp jewelry. THAT came after I developed the habit of rolling around provocatively in certain laps to influence players’ behaviour, and unintentionally wounded some soft spots. (In turn, the guys who still favour jeans and monster belt buckles [cowskulls, crossed axes, and so on], promised to either unbuckle or wear webbing belts for the evening. Getting a miniature metal ‘longhorn’ up one’s natural orifices is . . . startling.)
Which is probably more of an additional visual than many wanted, or were expecting.

love to all,
THO
Go to Top of Page

Karth
Learned Scribe

USA
81 Posts

Posted - 19 Mar 2005 :  01:53:03  Show Profile  Visit Karth's Homepage  Send Karth an AOL message Send Karth a Private Message
quote:
And as for your Magelord question: bingo. THANK you. I love it when I slip something into a book and someone figures it out. So, yes, ‘he was him.’ :}


Oi... Gonna be re-reading *that* one tonight.

Cheers, all.

-Karth
*************************************
Go to Top of Page

Haman
Seeker

USA
60 Posts

Posted - 19 Mar 2005 :  14:15:49  Show Profile  Visit Haman's Homepage Send Haman a Private Message
Hey all,

Just wanted to give a quick thanks to Ed for all of the terrific info on the Magefairs, I'll definatly be using it next session. Oh,and thanks to the Hooded One for replying and acting as go between...seriously, thanks for your time, I appreciate it.

In case it slipped in the cracks, just wanted to check with Ed again on any info he might have on the Gold Elf "Niedre" family. Their mentioned in the "Elves of Evermeet" FOR, but I couldn't find them in the Cormanthyr boxed/not a boxed set, nor the latest "Old Empires" revised book. Anything at all would be greatly appreciated.

Oh and lastly, as far as the Jerryd and Ed agreeable disagreements, just wanted to pipe in my two cents and two comments: 1) Jerryd: relax man, take what you want from the Realms and ditch what you don't. I've done things to Toril that I guarantee would make Ed shudder and weep, and I'll likely continue to do so, but that's because theirs always two versions of the Realms; Mine vs. the canon/Greenwood/Boyd/Schend/Cunningham/etc.. version. Please don't burn up time arguing anything with the guy who made the Realms, it's not that you don't have the right, it's just that you'll never be right. Oh and my 2nd comment goes to Ed for his long reply to jerryd; You go girl.

Thanks again Ed and THO.

Some people say we gamers have no lives....I think we have too many.
Go to Top of Page

Taelohn
Seeker

36 Posts

Posted - 19 Mar 2005 :  18:47:44  Show Profile  Visit Taelohn's Homepage  Send Taelohn an AOL message  Click to see Taelohn's MSN Messenger address Send Taelohn a Private Message
Hm... when someone is named after a deity (such as Torm), does that mean that his divine nakesake (who hears his name whenever it's spoken) would have his attention drawn to this mortal again and again?

(Or in the case of a girl named Seluneshar, mentioned in one of the Elminster novels... the attention of two deities?)
Go to Top of Page

Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore

1338 Posts

Posted - 20 Mar 2005 :  00:22:39  Show Profile Send Mumadar Ibn Huzal a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

Hello, all. My turn to answer a few scribes’ queries (which in this case, largely means giving you Ed’s lore and replies in my own words).
kuje31, only moneylenders, tax collectors, and certain sages and scribes in the Realms use “the fifth day of [month] in the Year of . . .” dating. Of course, WotC game designers, fiction writers, and a lot of us gamers have passing need for such precision, too (recall Ms. Fonstad’s “distances detective work” in the print FR Atlas?), so you’ll see it a lot in recently published products.
In the Realms, MOST folk (outside of courts and the ranks of guilds and merchants) never need more than “early in Eleint, in the year the wolves came,” although when dealing with courtiers, military recruiters, and tax officials, a specific year-date is always necessary. And most folk remember and record family births, deaths, and weddings like this: “the sixth day after Greengrass, in 1372” or “the seventh day into Uktar, of 1351” (with the “DR” being assumed, and all other year-numbering systems being designated, if used).
Certainly, for our real-world purposes, gamers prefer a precise day of a month of a year, but no, many Realms dates ARE as imprecise as given above. Dwarves in the Realms, mind you, seem to prefer full day-month-year (as do almost all courtiers, merchants, guilds, and anyone else entering into contracts or recorded loans).



A related question... as a carry-over from RealLife, many players use the terms hours, minutes and seconds while roleplaying. (e.g Beorn the Barbarian will wait for 5 minutes before... Or, ...Why don't we meet two hours from now at the large oak... )**

Given the above quote and the fact that there are not many time-pieces around in the Realms, these terms feel out-of-place to me, yet some manner of indication of time might be desireable. FRCS offers some suggestions, but these are rather broad parts of the day. Is there more definition that the average Realmsian would use?

Personally I use 'heartbeats' instead of seconds, but several minutes or hours become a bit more awkward to express in that type of unit...


** Also authors seem to 'suffer' from this type of 'modernism' form time to time...
Go to Top of Page
Page: of 84 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Previous Page | Next Page
 New Topic  Topic Locked
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
Candlekeep Forum © 1999-2017 Candlekeep.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000