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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6684 Posts

Posted - 10 Jan 2013 :  18:46:31  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Agreed ... while the rulebooks repeat their psionics-is-not-magic mantra countless times (even as they explain how this spell and that psionic power are functionally identical), psionics in 3E might as well be just another kind of magic. To me, psionics are redundant and not really a palatable flavour for the Realms (which already has an impressive variety of magics), while they are a cornerstone of Dark Sun and a welcome addition to Planescape. Psionic creatures (like illithids and many fiends) are far more fearsome in the Realms when they have an entire set of attacks, defenses, and powers other characters do not even understand.

Although at least 3E integrated psionics in a uniform way. 2E made an awful mess of things by rejecting, accepting, and revising psionics many times; a psionicist in Dark Sun would need to reference at least three or four sourcebooks just to list out the powers he could choose from at each level.

[/Ayrik]
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Old Man Harpell
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USA
473 Posts

Posted - 10 Jan 2013 :  19:32:29  Show Profile  Visit Old Man Harpell's Homepage Send Old Man Harpell a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Realms treatment of psionics is sparse, at least in my experience - you have exceptions, like the Oblodra (which, unless I am mistaken, Kimmuriel is the only valid member remaining, K'yorl not really a viable threat to anyone at the moment), but they are just that - exceptions.

There is (was?) a game called Dragonquest, and they treat(ed) mentalism like any other magic - the 'College of Sorceries of the Mind' - and while I dislike the mechanics of the game, I do like the magic premise of how psionics were treated. The mind fueld the magic, but that was the catalyst for manipulating the same magic that a necromancer or elementalist would.

That said, apart from Dark Sun, no D&D game world that really supports psionics comes to mind. Granted, I'm guilty of using them - in an 'evil characters' campaign I participated in many eons past, I made a drow 'wizard'...in reality a multi-class mage/psionicist, that I wouldn't have created had the DM not allowed it. He is still one of my favorites, even though I'm disinclined to allow any player character PCs in my own games these days.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
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Australia
31696 Posts

Posted - 11 Jan 2013 :  01:37:14  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell

The Realms treatment of psionics is sparse, at least in my experience - you have exceptions, like the Oblodra (which, unless I am mistaken, Kimmuriel is the only valid member remaining, K'yorl not really a viable threat to anyone at the moment), but they are just that - exceptions.
Psionics, or the Invisible Art [which is the term for psionics in the Realms--though it was noticeably absent from Player's Guide to Faerūn], has been in FR since 1e, it has just never been all that prominent in previous editions of the setting. Its apparent lack during 2e FR was mostly noted due to the fact that TSR didn't want two different worlds with a lot of psionics [the published DARK SUN setting was the main TSR setting for psionics], so psionics in the FR were put "on the backburner" so to speak.

One example, in the Ol' Grey Box, mentions that Illistyl Elventree has some degree of psionic power.

In 2e, psionics has a few notable practitioners, one of them House Obladra -- is covered in both FR fiction as well as the 2e Menzoberranzan boxed set.

Every other example of psionic characters in the Realms during 1e/2e can be gleaned from Kuje's FR NPC file -- some of which have developed mostly as wild talents. And take a look through Ed's compiled replies here at Candlekeep for his take on psionics in the Realms.

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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
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Posted - 11 Jan 2013 :  01:38:07  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's worth noting, too, that Ed does use psionics in his home Realms, but sparingly. Usually in the form of some characters having 'wild talents' [minor personal powers].

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Ayrik
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Canada
6684 Posts

Posted - 11 Jan 2013 :  07:59:10  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've seen fewer than a dozen psionic Wild Talents in years of Realms campaigning, and I recall none of them were especially potent, heightened senses was probably best roll in the entire lot. Of course, I didn't allow any check for psionic wild talents until a character actually came into contact with psychic surgery, telepathy (illithid, Gith, Kreen, etc), errant wishes, psionic artifacts, or some other "triggering" psi phenomenom.

[/Ayrik]
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sleyvas
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USA
7437 Posts

Posted - 11 Jan 2013 :  15:34:45  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I allowed one of my players to use a psychic warrior (he multi-classed it along with a few other classes such as fighter, etc... basically to grab a lot of feats). Granted, the depth involved there was extremely limited (nothing like a full-fledged psion), but it never really caused a lot of problems in my game (in fact, when they met up and somewhat allied with some duergar it made for some interesting interaction). That being said, I like the realms with the slight hint of psionics here and there. It shouldn't be prevalent except possibly in areas with high Jaamdathi influence.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore

Brazil
1464 Posts

Posted - 11 Jan 2013 :  16:02:37  Show Profile  Click to see Barastir's MSN Messenger address Send Barastir a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I play in the 2e, and I plan to use psionics in my campaign only when and if my PCs contact eastern cultures, like those in the Hordelands/Kara-Tur (at least psionics for humans and demihumans, for I think it makes sense to let mind flayers have those "alien" powers). And even then, for the PCs to show some "wild talent" they would have to know and understand a bit of how psionic works (a fighter, for example, wouldn't normally think he even could try to use this "strange magic", since he never wanted to dabble in spellcasting)and have a trigger, just like Ayrik said. Finally, I'd use the MTHAC0 system (like Varl), for it is really WAY better than the original 2e psionic rules.

"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."

The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood)
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7437 Posts

Posted - 11 Jan 2013 :  18:21:27  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir

I play in the 2e, and I plan to use psionics in my campaign only when and if my PCs contact eastern cultures, like those in the Hordelands/Kara-Tur (at least psionics for humans and demihumans, for I think it makes sense to let mind flayers have those "alien" powers). And even then, for the PCs to show some "wild talent" they would have to know and understand a bit of how psionic works (a fighter, for example, wouldn't normally think he even could try to use this "strange magic", since he never wanted to dabble in spellcasting)and have a trigger, just like Ayrik said. Finally, I'd use the MTHAC0 system (like Varl), for it is really WAY better than the original 2e psionic rules.



That does kind of bring up one other option. In 3E, I wouldn't mind there being a psionically strong group on another continent/island. Of course, that was kind of done with Eberron. Said continent/island should be relatively far from the realms though. If this psionic culture focused on the mental side of the psionics, so much the better. To add a little more flavor, maybe they have discovered arcane magic, but its only in the form of bard & beguiler magic. Then maybe throw in the tome of battle rules for their flavor of "fighters with magic" instead of paladins/blackguards (rangers, fighters, and barbarians also being there). That would make for a pretty good plant on Katashaka if there's no other realmslore for there. Maybe the Jaamdathi came from Katashaka even....

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Alruane
Senior Scribe

USA
434 Posts

Posted - 03 Dec 2013 :  22:08:07  Show Profile Send Alruane a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I may be the only person alive who would like to use and see this ability used with ACTUAL characters. Aside from separate rule books, I think the idea of psionics is really interesting. Regardless of creatures or npcs using the ability.

" I wonder if you are destined to be forgotten. Will your life fade in the shadow of greater beings?"
~Joneleth Irenicus

"Wisdom? My dear boy, wisdom is knowing that you do not know everything. Wisdom is realizing, a wise man ALWAYS has questions. Not answer."

~Alruane
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31518 Posts

Posted - 03 Dec 2013 :  22:43:13  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm a huge fan of psionics... I even made one of my Lords of Waterdeep a psionicist. I went further than that, with him, actually: his late girlfriend was a psionicist, his new lady (and Alias clone!) is a psionicist, and his mentor was a psionicist who took over the mind and body of the greater doppelganger that ate him, allowing him to infiltrate the Unseen!

One of the Hooks I came up with touched at least somewhat on a psionicist, and I've been fiddling with an idea for a psionicist that's inspired by the character of Azazel in the movie Fallen (the idea of a disembodied intellect into body-hopping is far from original and certainly predates that movie, but it was that movie that made me want to try my own).

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Alruane
Senior Scribe

USA
434 Posts

Posted - 03 Dec 2013 :  23:11:00  Show Profile Send Alruane a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The idea of a Lord Of Waterdeep being a psionicist is both scary, and very clever! I mean, it works on more than one level of the characters story. Delving into minds to possibly uncover plots and secrets that could be detrimental to their agenda? Very evilly clever indeed. Also the story behind the mentor, pure genius! He was that powerful he assumed the body of the doppelganger and now has the ability (I hope) to change his appearance as such!

Definitely worth trying there Wooly, I'd do it.

" I wonder if you are destined to be forgotten. Will your life fade in the shadow of greater beings?"
~Joneleth Irenicus

"Wisdom? My dear boy, wisdom is knowing that you do not know everything. Wisdom is realizing, a wise man ALWAYS has questions. Not answer."

~Alruane
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore

1615 Posts

Posted - 03 Dec 2013 :  23:48:22  Show Profile Send The Arcanamach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I use psionics rules from the 1e era with some 2e stuff thown in...otherwise I don't use them. I especially dislike the way 3e used them. Also, psionics is NOT magic in my campaign although it does tie in with magic on a metaphysical level.

I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one.
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore

Brazil
1464 Posts

Posted - 04 Dec 2013 :  15:48:08  Show Profile  Click to see Barastir's MSN Messenger address Send Barastir a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
Also, psionics is NOT magic in my campaign although it does tie in with magic on a metaphysical level.


As in mine, although common people do not know the difference and tend to call everything supernatural "magic". In my rending of Kara-Tur, however, psionic powers are known to some, and it is undefined if ki powers come from the same source.

I have there two highly psionic classes, the "ki master" (more akin to the regular psionic or to the "sensei" of Athas) and the "monk" (mixing psionics with martial arts in a sort of priestly organization). Besides, other characters can be wild talents. All 2e homebrew, of course.

EDIT: I've revised the ki powers in my 2e Oriental Adventures adaptation, and decided for an optional rule: one could use psionics OR a new ki power system based on the OA 1e. If one chose psionics, the PCs would be one-power wild talents, except for monks and ki masters. If the choice if for the new ki system, there would be one power only for other characters, and a power progression for monks and ki masters based somehow on the sciences and devotions progression.

"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."

The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood)

Edited by - Barastir on 24 Mar 2014 15:30:11
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore

India
1591 Posts

Posted - 24 Mar 2014 :  12:06:25  Show Profile Send Thauranil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think psionics are pretty interesting. It would be great if we got to read more about them.
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore

Brazil
1464 Posts

Posted - 24 Mar 2014 :  12:57:34  Show Profile  Click to see Barastir's MSN Messenger address Send Barastir a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

It's worth noting, too, that Ed does use psionics in his home Realms, but sparingly. Usually in the form of some characters having 'wild talents' [minor personal powers].


We must remember that in 1e psionics were always a sort of "wild talent" power... However, its power progression was stronger than in 2e. I imagine most of the psionics in Ed's Realms were created based on these rules.

"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."

The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood)
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31518 Posts

Posted - 24 Mar 2014 :  14:56:00  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil

I think psionics are pretty interesting. It would be great if we got to read more about them.



I'm sure that a couple years after 5E is intro'ed, we'll get another doesn't-quite-fit version of psionics shoehorned in. I'm a fan of psionics, but other than Dark Sun, WotC (and TSR before them) has never done a good job meshing psionics with everything else.

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Drustan Dwnhaedan
Learned Scribe

USA
323 Posts

Posted - 24 Mar 2014 :  22:02:38  Show Profile Send Drustan Dwnhaedan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I find psionics quite intriguing, but my DM refuses to allow psionics in his campaigns; not even illithids (or other psionics-using monsters) are allowed to use their psionic abilities. Actually, I don't know if this is true, as my group has killed every mind flayer (or whatever psionic monster) we've ever encountered in the first round of combat (one of the few things I like about being part of a group of power-gamers is how quickly we get through battles).

Edited by - Drustan Dwnhaedan on 24 Mar 2014 22:04:01
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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1728 Posts

Posted - 24 Mar 2014 :  23:09:28  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Agreed ... while the rulebooks repeat their psionics-is-not-magic mantra countless times (even as they explain how this spell and that psionic power are functionally identical), psionics in 3E might as well be just another kind of magic. To me, psionics are redundant and not really a palatable flavour for the Realms (which already has an impressive variety of magics)
First you take the version that breaks the premise and goes all loonie as golden standard, then you say that the very concept it, by your admission in the previous line, breaks is unsuitable specifically because of the way the only version you are willing to consider breaks the premise and goes loonie.
Nice juggling.

quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell

The Realms treatment of psionics is sparse, at least in my experience - you have exceptions, like the Oblodra (which, unless I am mistaken, Kimmuriel is the only valid member remaining
Technically, since Kimmuriel left his House for another allegiance, he is not a member (in formal standing), even if a descendant (biologically). Which is why he survived, of course. But yeah.
Also, in AD&D2 rules (during which Oblodra were introduced), magical creatures as much as surface elves have lesser affinity for psionics (e.g. halved chance of wild talent) - they tend toward developing magic. So psionic drow are an anomaly (a drop of Githblank blood? ).

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

I've seen fewer than a dozen psionic Wild Talents in years of Realms campaigning, and I recall none of them were especially potent, heightened senses was probably best roll in the entire lot.
By far the best Wild Talent among the old canon characters is mindlink.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore

India
1591 Posts

Posted - 25 Mar 2014 :  12:50:13  Show Profile Send Thauranil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil

I think psionics are pretty interesting. It would be great if we got to read more about them.



I'm sure that a couple years after 5E is intro'ed, we'll get another doesn't-quite-fit version of psionics shoehorned in. I'm a fan of psionics, but other than Dark Sun, WotC (and TSR before them) has never done a good job meshing psionics with everything else.



Psionics , when done well, can be very intriguing in any world I mean look at Warhammer 40k. It would not be half as interesting with all those psychers running around.
As far as FR goes we hardly get any mention of them aside form Kimmuriel and in the House of serpents trilogy. Which I quite enjoyed.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31518 Posts

Posted - 25 Mar 2014 :  14:11:15  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil

I think psionics are pretty interesting. It would be great if we got to read more about them.



I'm sure that a couple years after 5E is intro'ed, we'll get another doesn't-quite-fit version of psionics shoehorned in. I'm a fan of psionics, but other than Dark Sun, WotC (and TSR before them) has never done a good job meshing psionics with everything else.



Psionics , when done well, can be very intriguing in any world I mean look at Warhammer 40k. It would not be half as interesting with all those psychers running around.
As far as FR goes we hardly get any mention of them aside form Kimmuriel and in the House of serpents trilogy. Which I quite enjoyed.



I agree that they can be intriguing -- my love of psionics should be self-evident, with my psionic Lord of Waterdeep and my psionic version of warforged. That said, in D&D, psionic rules are usually a bolt-on, and don't integrate well into any of the settings (again, except for Dark Sun) or into the existing ruleset.

It's not a criticism of psionics, it's a criticism of their implementation.

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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe

487 Posts

Posted - 26 Mar 2014 :  04:04:24  Show Profile Send Lilianviaten a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil

I think psionics are pretty interesting. It would be great if we got to read more about them.



I'm sure that a couple years after 5E is intro'ed, we'll get another doesn't-quite-fit version of psionics shoehorned in. I'm a fan of psionics, but other than Dark Sun, WotC (and TSR before them) has never done a good job meshing psionics with everything else.



If you haven't yet, read "Venom in her Veins". It has a powerful psion as a supporting character, and it deals with the criminally underused yuanti.
Psionics , when done well, can be very intriguing in any world I mean look at Warhammer 40k. It would not be half as interesting with all those psychers running around.
As far as FR goes we hardly get any mention of them aside form Kimmuriel and in the House of serpents trilogy. Which I quite enjoyed.

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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe

487 Posts

Posted - 26 Mar 2014 :  04:05:55  Show Profile Send Lilianviaten a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Also, I forgot to add that Paul Kemp's books about feature a lot of psionics. If anybody knows of other FR books dealing with psionics, please let me know.
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 26 Mar 2014 :  04:47:41  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

A lot? Hmm, not really. Off the top of my head, I can only recall Mags and the Sojourner.

Every beginning has an end.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31518 Posts

Posted - 26 Mar 2014 :  05:12:50  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten


If you haven't yet, read "Venom in her Veins". It has a powerful psion as a supporting character, and it deals with the criminally underused yuanti.



Again, I was referring to how the rules for psionics have been integrated into existing rules and settings. Aside from Dark Sun, psionics has always been kind of a "oh, yeah, we gave you an integrated system for magic and swords -- now we're throwing something that's kinda sorta just like magic but really different into the mix!"

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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore

USA
1279 Posts

Posted - 01 Apr 2014 :  14:58:17  Show Profile  Visit Mournblade's Homepage  Send Mournblade an AOL message  Click to see Mournblade's MSN Messenger address  Send Mournblade a Yahoo! Message Send Mournblade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In NIght of the Hunter Matron Quenthel calls the Oblodra (sp?) psionics mind magic.

A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to...
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