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Valdar Oakensong
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
159 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Oct 2004 : 17:28:37
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Could anyone tell me who the being is that Ao refers to at the end of Waterdeep? It seems to point to a higher being.
thanks
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Guns don't kill people, magic missiles do. |
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Beowulf
Learned Scribe
Canada
322 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2004 : 17:37:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Valdar Oakensong
Could anyone tell me who the being is that Ao refers to at the end of Waterdeep? It seems to point to a higher being.
thanks
I always figured it was one of two possibilities. Me, or the fabled DM Continuum.  |
"Ill tempered the wretch, who laughs at everyone. He cannot recognize, as he should, that he is not without faults." the High One, Poetic Edda |
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Valdar Oakensong
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
159 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2004 : 17:50:32
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Nothing wrong with delusions of grandeur my friend. Next time you reply to a post of mine please refer to me as your Highness |
Guns don't kill people, magic missiles do. |
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5692 Posts |
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Beowulf
Learned Scribe
Canada
322 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2004 : 19:18:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Alaundo
Well met
Indeed this question has arisen before, it is often said that the reader is the person to whom Ao is speaking. I believe this is stated in the official Realms FAQ.
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"Ill tempered the wretch, who laughs at everyone. He cannot recognize, as he should, that he is not without faults." the High One, Poetic Edda |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2004 : 20:12:33
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| Faiths and Avatars from 2e also said it's: A Luminous Being. What ever the hells that means. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2004 : 21:21:20
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
Faiths and Avatars from 2e also said it's: A Luminous Being. What ever the hells that means. :)
It means Yoda. "Luminous beings are we."  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2004 : 03:00:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
Faiths and Avatars from 2e also said it's: A Luminous Being. What ever the hells that means. :)
It means Yoda. "Luminous beings are we."
Good one Wooly .
I've spoken at length about this before in another scroll here at Candlekeep. Until I find it though, I will simply state that it's been "unofficially" theorised by some designers that, those "luminous beings" are actually personifications of the multiverse itself. And that, each and every "High God" in each and every setting is merely a servant of these hyper-dimensional beings.
Granted it's an old theory, but it is the one theory that appears to have survived the test of time and edition upgrades successfully, while other theories have been disproved by changes to the core concepts of each setting.
I don't particularly like the theory completely myself. It has some "accurate points", but it leaves a lot in the multiverse and each individual cosmology, unexplained. But then... isn't that the point? 
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2004 : 03:31:21
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
Faiths and Avatars from 2e also said it's: A Luminous Being. What ever the hells that means. :)
It means Yoda. "Luminous beings are we."
Good one Wooly .
I'm afraid the Furry One is just copying someone else. Would the court care to review the evidence? |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Lysander
Learned Scribe
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2004 : 03:57:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
I'm afraid the Furry One is just copying someone else. Would the court care to review the evidence?
Well, you can't plagiarize yourself...
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert Posted - 16 May 2004 : 18:15:4
quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
"Luminous beings are we . . . ." 
Lurue's Horn, you're right! Ao's superior is none other than Yoda!
That's the first direct Yoda reference on the page that I could find. |
Lysander
Defender of the Second Edition
Moderator, Project Gemengan, Worlds of D&D |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2004 : 04:39:40
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 Quick, someone cast magic circle against lawyers.
(I guess I was asking for it with that "court" crack. ) |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2004 : 05:43:02
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| I never claimed to have thought that one up. It was a good one the first time around, so I decided to toss it out again. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Lady Kazandra
Senior Scribe
Australia
921 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2004 : 07:50:39
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I don't particularly like the theory completely myself. It has some "accurate points", but it leaves a lot in the multiverse and each individual cosmology, unexplained. But then... isn't that the point?
Why don't you like the theory? What points does it leave unexplained?
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"Once upon a time the plural of 'wizard' was 'war'." -- The Last Continent, by Terry Pratchett |
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Lysander
Learned Scribe
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2004 : 12:13:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
Quick, someone cast magic circle against lawyers.
(I guess I was asking for it with that "court" crack. )
Hey, don't do that.... as far as I'm aware, the only way to circumvent a Barrier of NDA is with a Talisman of the Attorney (aka, The Business Card) - though, that only works for the wielder of the Talisman since it's use automatically invokes Magic Circle of Client Confidentiality whether or not the Tome of Retaining Agreement is signed or not.
Fortunately, there is also the Tome of the Pro Bono which negates application of the relic, Immovable Statement of Fees Owed. And the latter, not even AO's overlord can overcome (Just to bring this back 'on topic' even if by a thumb.)
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Lysander
Defender of the Second Edition
Moderator, Project Gemengan, Worlds of D&D |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2004 : 14:34:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Lady Kazandra
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I don't particularly like the theory completely myself. It has some "accurate points", but it leaves a lot in the multiverse and each individual cosmology, unexplained. But then... isn't that the point?
Why don't you like the theory? What points does it leave unexplained?
I'll discuss this with you when once I get home  . If I were to begin posting the major points I have issue with here, Alaundo will have the Scribe Behaviour Enforcement Division chase me down...
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dracandos the Spellsage
Senior Scribe
466 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2004 : 18:03:59
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| i dont particularly like the idea that Ao's 'master' is essentially the reader...i dont really kno y...it just leaves me a bit unsettled |
Death strips away the masks men don to hide their true nature - The Slayer's Guide to Undead
The Lord of Murder shall perish, but in his doom he shall spawn a score of mortal progeny. Chaos shall be sown from their passage - So Sayeth the Wise Alaundo
Whenever magic one doth weave, 'tis never ever wise to deceive - Elminster
Strength and power come from knowing and controlling what others do not, but never reveal all that you know - Vecna
I have been known to cast a blue mage spell now and again - Dracandos the Spellsage |
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5692 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2004 : 20:29:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Dracandos the Spellsage
i dont particularly like the idea that Ao's 'master' is essentially the reader...i dont really kno y...it just leaves me a bit unsettled
Well met
I couldn't agree more, Dracandos. To me, Ao is the highest power, there is no greater. As I see it, Ao is a force, a power, not a being as such. The booming voice of command and power, if you will. |
Alaundo
Candlekeep Forums Head Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
An Introduction to Candlekeep - by Ed Greenwood
The Candlekeep Compendium - Tomes of Realmslore penned by Scribes of Candlekeep
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Dracandos the Spellsage
Senior Scribe
466 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2004 : 03:40:50
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 exactly! that is precisely my view of Lord Ao as well. very well said! |
Death strips away the masks men don to hide their true nature - The Slayer's Guide to Undead
The Lord of Murder shall perish, but in his doom he shall spawn a score of mortal progeny. Chaos shall be sown from their passage - So Sayeth the Wise Alaundo
Whenever magic one doth weave, 'tis never ever wise to deceive - Elminster
Strength and power come from knowing and controlling what others do not, but never reveal all that you know - Vecna
I have been known to cast a blue mage spell now and again - Dracandos the Spellsage |
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Forlorn
Seeker
59 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2004 : 21:12:31
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| Well, who is his master is not known but him having a master reminds my player characters that their deeds are as meaningless as the feelings of a bug to us, according to the plots going over the multiverse. |
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Dracandos the Spellsage
Senior Scribe
466 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2004 : 21:22:05
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| hmm interesting take forlorn |
Death strips away the masks men don to hide their true nature - The Slayer's Guide to Undead
The Lord of Murder shall perish, but in his doom he shall spawn a score of mortal progeny. Chaos shall be sown from their passage - So Sayeth the Wise Alaundo
Whenever magic one doth weave, 'tis never ever wise to deceive - Elminster
Strength and power come from knowing and controlling what others do not, but never reveal all that you know - Vecna
I have been known to cast a blue mage spell now and again - Dracandos the Spellsage |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2004 : 06:19:50
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| Hmm . . . that's odd, Alaundo contradicting established Realmslore. Where'd I put that detect doppelganger scroll . . . ? |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Capn Charlie
Senior Scribe
USA
418 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2004 : 06:38:35
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| I always read it as being that AO has a superior, an overgod over him, just as he is over the gods of toril. I would also assume the "god being" over AO has one over it as well, and so on, a massive beuracrecy, with levels and levels that any part of the chain can not percieve the levels above it's master, and have no desire to see below their underlings. |
Shadows of War: Tales of a Mercenary
My first stab at realms fiction, here at candlekeep. Stop on by and tell me what you think. |
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5692 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2004 : 10:31:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
Hmm . . . that's odd, Alaundo contradicting established Realmslore. Where'd I put that detect doppelganger scroll . . . ?
::chuckle::
Well met
Oh, "established Realmslore" may be a little strong, my dear Bookwyrm. I believe it to be just a wild stab in the dark from some crazy scholars. Why, I was only just sat sipping tea with Ao an afternoon or two back when he insisted that no greater pow..... ahem, anyway  |
Alaundo
Candlekeep Forums Head Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
An Introduction to Candlekeep - by Ed Greenwood
The Candlekeep Compendium - Tomes of Realmslore penned by Scribes of Candlekeep
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Dracandos the Spellsage
Senior Scribe
466 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2004 : 17:37:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Capn Charlie
I always read it as being that AO has a superior, an overgod over him, just as he is over the gods of toril. I would also assume the "god being" over AO has one over it as well, and so on, a massive beuracrecy, with levels and levels that any part of the chain can not percieve the levels above it's master, and have no desire to see below their underlings.
aye, i agree. but this so called 'established Realmslore' is saying that the being above Ao, is basically us, the reader, the dm. which i dont particularly like the idea of...eh no matter |
Death strips away the masks men don to hide their true nature - The Slayer's Guide to Undead
The Lord of Murder shall perish, but in his doom he shall spawn a score of mortal progeny. Chaos shall be sown from their passage - So Sayeth the Wise Alaundo
Whenever magic one doth weave, 'tis never ever wise to deceive - Elminster
Strength and power come from knowing and controlling what others do not, but never reveal all that you know - Vecna
I have been known to cast a blue mage spell now and again - Dracandos the Spellsage |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2004 : 18:17:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Alaundo
quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
Hmm . . . that's odd, Alaundo contradicting established Realmslore. Where'd I put that detect doppelganger scroll . . . ?
::chuckle::
Well met
Oh, "established Realmslore" may be a little strong, my dear Bookwyrm. I believe it to be just a wild stab in the dark from some crazy scholars. Why, I was only just sat sipping tea with Ao an afternoon or two back when he insisted that no greater pow..... ahem, anyway
I again point to Faiths & Avatars from 2e where it says AO does have a superior called "A LUMINOUS BEING." No TSR and WOTC really hasn't explained who or what they is and yes one of the theories is that it's the Reader or the DM but this could or could not be true. But that line of text in F&A is official canon text. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2004 : 21:55:21
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| Which is what I was referring to. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Forlorn
Seeker
59 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2004 : 22:28:28
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There are mystries in the multiverse that cannot be explained. There are also mystries in Fearun theology that cannot be explained.
Ao has a superior but what kind of a being is a mystery as well as many others known or forgotten in millenias.
Mortal life is meaningless in the course of time and the plots going on in multiverse. Ao is the ultimet power of realms that is it noone knows better unless he knows sth specific involving planescape. And hence planescape is not our issue, we shoukd have no questions about Ao cuz we can only recieve speculations instead of facts.
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Valdar Oakensong
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
159 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2004 : 22:43:45
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| There have been some interesting points put forward, but if anyone else says that Ao's master is the reader I shall stamp my feet and sulk |
Guns don't kill people, magic missiles do. |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2004 : 23:15:31
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Dang, and here I was daydreaming about ordering Ao around.  |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Wood Elf Ranger
Senior Scribe
USA
627 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2004 : 03:29:42
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Truly I believe it was meant that the reader/DM/author is Ao's master. Why you ask? Because a reader uses their imagination to dream up what the FR looks like, the DM molds the FR for their campaigns, and authors especially detail the history and the characters and keep the setting moving forward.
I don't think it should have been mentioned in a book but I do understand why. Its to remind us that we can be a part of Toril in any way we like, and if we strive enough either to be an author or a game designer we can have an even greater impact on Toril. |
~Lee N.
"Breaktime yes?!.. Yes?.. Maybe?.. Noo, baaack to work.." -Grovel the Goblin from NWN: HotU |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2004 : 04:50:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Forlorn
There are mystries in the multiverse that cannot be explained. There are also mystries in Fearun theology that cannot be explained.
Ao has a superior but what kind of a being is a mystery as well as many others known or forgotten in millenias.
Mortal life is meaningless in the course of time and the plots going on in multiverse. Ao is the ultimet power of realms that is it noone knows better unless he knows sth specific involving planescape. And hence planescape is not our issue, we shoukd have no questions about Ao cuz we can only recieve speculations instead of facts.
Ao is master of Realmspace only... this includes the Realms cosmology. It's entirely possible that, these luminious beings that are referred to in the Faiths and Avatars tome, are merely the overgods of the "multiverse" which contains Realmspace. Therefore, of all the inhabited worlds in this "multiverse" (remembering that in 3e, all settings occupy their own multiverses), it's just as possible that there are many creator gods of many different worlds who all likely take direction from these overall overgods...
It can be assumed from both novel and sourcebook material, that these overgods strive for balance in their "multiverse". So, when the domain (Realmspace) that is under the watchful eye of their underling, Ao, suddenly developed problems of a godly concern, Ao was responsible for setting his own house in order at the behest of these luminious overgods. Which also partly explains why he had to convene with these beings at the end of the trilogy.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Ao's master?
