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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Delnyn

Also, Abeir until 4E had primordials (Dawn Titans) but no gods (Estelar). The afterlife of an Abeiran soul is unknown, but whatever it is, Kelemvor has no say in the matter.

The Abeir-Toril split happened about -31,000 DR. One of the primodrials (Asgorath IIRC) tried to hurl an ice moon at the original planet Abeir-Toril. Ao split the planet to prevent destruction. The gods (and primordials such as Ubtao who sided with them) got Toril and the primordials got Abeir.

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Apparently making a new planet is easier than stopping a big snowball.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

Ok, I'm announcing from the outset... going out on a limb here with some of the ideas we've been throwing around the last year or two.

We've been wondering about three tyrannical entities... Bane, Xvim, and Gilgeam.... since the sundering and the last 2 brimstone angels novels. Gilgeam appears to be returned according to the novel, but he calls himself the "Son of Victory" instead of the "Father of Victory". He's also very weak and seemingly at least somewhat dependent on an item for his power. Still he professes to be Gilgeam, and people believe him.

We had been discussing the idea that where Mourktar WAS is all water during 4th edition, and that that area may have transferred to Abeir (the only indication otherwise is a RLB's novel which has them approaching a city CALLED Mourktar... which may be a "new" city established in the last century by survivors of vanished Mourktar within the remaining bounds of Threskel... I say new, because it may be 80 years old). In Mourktar was "the largest temple of Bane", but one which favored the colors of Green and Black, which were Xvim's traditional colors.


So, what if prior to the spellplague, Xvim HAD been trying to take over his father's shoes, then the spellplague happened. Perhaps it was original Bane "left behind"/"returned" to Toril, much as how Amaunator and other gods "returned"... and Xvim went to Abeir. Xvim then begins posing as Gilgeam to a displaced Untheric population. It should also be noted, Xvim is half-demonic, and the army that "Gilgeam"/"Son of Victory" is leading is supported by demons. Leading into this hypothesis is the idea that the novels indicate that Enlil sees something familiar in "Gilgeam", but also something different. If Xvim were to inhabit Gilgeam's former god flesh that might create this strange mix.

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Originally posted by Bootravsky

In a similar way, I had the theory that Ambuchar Devayam and Iyachtu Xvim were different iterations of the Baneson, just from different lands and times - their names seem similar enough also. Maybe, they are all immortal beings that feed into the story cycle of the Strife Father being consumed by his child, a Faerunian version of Chronos/Zeus, or Arthur/Mordred. AND maybe Gilgeam is yet another iteration.
Jergal’s first child (DR -1377) = Ambuchar Devayam
Jergal splits his portfolio (-350s - -88)
The early first millennia = Gilgeam
DR 759 -1368 = Iyachtu Xvim

Timeline is messy, but who cares?

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Originally posted by sleyvas

Ok, I'm announcing from the outset... going out on a limb here with some of the ideas we've been throwing around the last year or two.

We've been wondering about three tyrannical entities... Bane, Xvim, and Gilgeam.... since the sundering and the last 2 brimstone angels novels. Gilgeam appears to be returned according to the novel, but he calls himself the "Son of Victory" instead of the "Father of Victory". He's also very weak and seemingly at least somewhat dependent on an item for his power. Still he professes to be Gilgeam, and people believe him.

We had been discussing the idea that where Mourktar WAS is all water during 4th edition, and that that area may have transferred to Abeir (the only indication otherwise is a RLB's novel which has them approaching a city CALLED Mourktar... which may be a "new" city established in the last century by survivors of vanished Mourktar within the remaining bounds of Threskel... I say new, because it may be 80 years old). In Mourktar was "the largest temple of Bane", but one which favored the colors of Green and Black, which were Xvim's traditional colors.


So, what if prior to the spellplague, Xvim HAD been trying to take over his father's shoes, then the spellplague happened. Perhaps it was original Bane "left behind"/"returned" to Toril, much as how Amaunator and other gods "returned"... and Xvim went to Abeir. Xvim then begins posing as Gilgeam to a displaced Untheric population. It should also be noted, Xvim is half-demonic, and the army that "Gilgeam"/"Son of Victory" is leading is supported by demons. Leading into this hypothesis is the idea that the novels indicate that Enlil sees something familiar in "Gilgeam", but also something different. If Xvim were to inhabit Gilgeam's former god flesh that might create this strange mix.

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What makes you link Tan Chin of Kara-Tur (Ambuchar Devayam) and Jergal? For linking Gilgeam and Bane, there's several links in lore that hint that perhaps Gilgeam was taken over by Bane at some point (for instance the "Banespear" that was rumored to be able to slay Gilgeam, and the change in Gilgeam from a generally affable personality to a cold tyrant).

I had actually forgotten THIS idea (of Xvim being the one transferred to Abeir), but I admit I still like it that possibly Gilgeam is Xvim from when Xvim was masquerading as Bane. This whole storyline where "Bane is back as some lesser entity" just screams to me that something funky is going on with him. He's a full on high up power in some form, but I think there's separate "aspects" of him floating about..... maybe as different people (Xvim, Bane, etc...).... or maybe he was split in a way similar to Manshoon. There's some bigger story at play.

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Originally posted by Bootravsky

Oh, that’s easy: nothing but slight phonetic similarities between Iyachtu Xvim and Ambuchar Devayam. I just like the idea of something that ties the east and west realms tighter. They’ve always felt so separate, since most Realms products ignore Semphar and Murghom. Wasn’t Bane from the East as a living being? I think Myrkul was from Murghom, and Baal was Netherese (4e...).

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What makes you link Tan Chin of Kara-Tur (Ambuchar Devayam) and Jergal? For linking Gilgeam and Bane, there's several links in lore that hint that perhaps Gilgeam was taken over by Bane at some point (for instance the "Banespear" that was rumored to be able to slay Gilgeam, and the change in Gilgeam from a generally affable personality to a cold tyrant).

I had actually forgotten THIS idea (of Xvim being the one transferred to Abeir), but I admit I still like it that possibly Gilgeam is Xvim from when Xvim was masquerading as Bane. This whole storyline where "Bane is back as some lesser entity" just screams to me that something funky is going on with him. He's a full on high up power in some form, but I think there's separate "aspects" of him floating about..... maybe as different people (Xvim, Bane, etc...).... or maybe he was split in a way similar to Manshoon. There's some bigger story at play.

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