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PattPlays
Learned Scribe

253 Posts

Posted - 15 Dec 2020 :  04:10:12  Show Profile  Visit PattPlays's Homepage Send PattPlays a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

Also, Abeir until 4E had primordials (Dawn Titans) but no gods (Estelar). The afterlife of an Abeiran soul is unknown, but whatever it is, Kelemvor has no say in the matter.

The Abeir-Toril split happened about -31,000 DR. One of the primodrials (Asgorath IIRC) tried to hurl an ice moon at the original planet Abeir-Toril. Ao split the planet to prevent destruction. The gods (and primordials such as Ubtao who sided with them) got Toril and the primordials got Abeir.



Apparently making a new planet is easier than stopping a big snowball.



I wonder where said ice-ball is now if it passed between the two planetary bodies and went careening off into realmspace...

:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, RIP Pluto: :IRC lives:


https://thisisstorytelling.wordpress.com

T_P_T
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cpthero2
Great Reader

USA
2249 Posts

Posted - 15 Dec 2020 :  06:39:02  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Learned Scribe Returnip,

I must say, I have a real love for a little more mystery in there as well. Having the gods too defined makes it a little pointless to me!

Best regards,







Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Bootravsky
Acolyte

USA
6 Posts

Posted - 28 Dec 2020 :  15:36:39  Show Profile Send Bootravsky a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In a similar way, I had the theory that Ambuchar Devayam and Iyachtu Xvim were different iterations of the Baneson, just from different lands and times - their names seem similar enough also. Maybe, they are all immortal beings that feed into the story cycle of the Strife Father being consumed by his child, a Faerunian version of Chronos/Zeus, or Arthur/Mordred. AND maybe Gilgeam is yet another iteration.
Jergal’s first child (DR -1377) = Ambuchar Devayam
Jergal splits his portfolio (-350s - -88)
The early first millennia = Gilgeam
DR 759 -1368 = Iyachtu Xvim

Timeline is messy, but who cares?

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Ok, I'm announcing from the outset... going out on a limb here with some of the ideas we've been throwing around the last year or two.

We've been wondering about three tyrannical entities... Bane, Xvim, and Gilgeam.... since the sundering and the last 2 brimstone angels novels. Gilgeam appears to be returned according to the novel, but he calls himself the "Son of Victory" instead of the "Father of Victory". He's also very weak and seemingly at least somewhat dependent on an item for his power. Still he professes to be Gilgeam, and people believe him.

We had been discussing the idea that where Mourktar WAS is all water during 4th edition, and that that area may have transferred to Abeir (the only indication otherwise is a RLB's novel which has them approaching a city CALLED Mourktar... which may be a "new" city established in the last century by survivors of vanished Mourktar within the remaining bounds of Threskel... I say new, because it may be 80 years old). In Mourktar was "the largest temple of Bane", but one which favored the colors of Green and Black, which were Xvim's traditional colors.


So, what if prior to the spellplague, Xvim HAD been trying to take over his father's shoes, then the spellplague happened. Perhaps it was original Bane "left behind"/"returned" to Toril, much as how Amaunator and other gods "returned"... and Xvim went to Abeir. Xvim then begins posing as Gilgeam to a displaced Untheric population. It should also be noted, Xvim is half-demonic, and the army that "Gilgeam"/"Son of Victory" is leading is supported by demons. Leading into this hypothesis is the idea that the novels indicate that Enlil sees something familiar in "Gilgeam", but also something different. If Xvim were to inhabit Gilgeam's former god flesh that might create this strange mix.

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
9895 Posts

Posted - 28 Dec 2020 :  22:29:32  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bootravsky

In a similar way, I had the theory that Ambuchar Devayam and Iyachtu Xvim were different iterations of the Baneson, just from different lands and times - their names seem similar enough also. Maybe, they are all immortal beings that feed into the story cycle of the Strife Father being consumed by his child, a Faerunian version of Chronos/Zeus, or Arthur/Mordred. AND maybe Gilgeam is yet another iteration.
Jergal’s first child (DR -1377) = Ambuchar Devayam
Jergal splits his portfolio (-350s - -88)
The early first millennia = Gilgeam
DR 759 -1368 = Iyachtu Xvim

Timeline is messy, but who cares?

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Ok, I'm announcing from the outset... going out on a limb here with some of the ideas we've been throwing around the last year or two.

We've been wondering about three tyrannical entities... Bane, Xvim, and Gilgeam.... since the sundering and the last 2 brimstone angels novels. Gilgeam appears to be returned according to the novel, but he calls himself the "Son of Victory" instead of the "Father of Victory". He's also very weak and seemingly at least somewhat dependent on an item for his power. Still he professes to be Gilgeam, and people believe him.

We had been discussing the idea that where Mourktar WAS is all water during 4th edition, and that that area may have transferred to Abeir (the only indication otherwise is a RLB's novel which has them approaching a city CALLED Mourktar... which may be a "new" city established in the last century by survivors of vanished Mourktar within the remaining bounds of Threskel... I say new, because it may be 80 years old). In Mourktar was "the largest temple of Bane", but one which favored the colors of Green and Black, which were Xvim's traditional colors.


So, what if prior to the spellplague, Xvim HAD been trying to take over his father's shoes, then the spellplague happened. Perhaps it was original Bane "left behind"/"returned" to Toril, much as how Amaunator and other gods "returned"... and Xvim went to Abeir. Xvim then begins posing as Gilgeam to a displaced Untheric population. It should also be noted, Xvim is half-demonic, and the army that "Gilgeam"/"Son of Victory" is leading is supported by demons. Leading into this hypothesis is the idea that the novels indicate that Enlil sees something familiar in "Gilgeam", but also something different. If Xvim were to inhabit Gilgeam's former god flesh that might create this strange mix.





What makes you link Tan Chin of Kara-Tur (Ambuchar Devayam) and Jergal? For linking Gilgeam and Bane, there's several links in lore that hint that perhaps Gilgeam was taken over by Bane at some point (for instance the "Banespear" that was rumored to be able to slay Gilgeam, and the change in Gilgeam from a generally affable personality to a cold tyrant).

I had actually forgotten THIS idea (of Xvim being the one transferred to Abeir), but I admit I still like it that possibly Gilgeam is Xvim from when Xvim was masquerading as Bane. This whole storyline where "Bane is back as some lesser entity" just screams to me that something funky is going on with him. He's a full on high up power in some form, but I think there's separate "aspects" of him floating about..... maybe as different people (Xvim, Bane, etc...).... or maybe he was split in a way similar to Manshoon. There's some bigger story at play.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Bootravsky
Acolyte

USA
6 Posts

Posted - 29 Dec 2020 :  02:48:43  Show Profile Send Bootravsky a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh, that’s easy: nothing but slight phonetic similarities between Iyachtu Xvim and Ambuchar Devayam. I just like the idea of something that ties the east and west realms tighter. They’ve always felt so separate, since most Realms products ignore Semphar and Murghom. Wasn’t Bane from the East as a living being? I think Myrkul was from Murghom, and Baal was Netherese (4e...).


quote:


What makes you link Tan Chin of Kara-Tur (Ambuchar Devayam) and Jergal? For linking Gilgeam and Bane, there's several links in lore that hint that perhaps Gilgeam was taken over by Bane at some point (for instance the "Banespear" that was rumored to be able to slay Gilgeam, and the change in Gilgeam from a generally affable personality to a cold tyrant).

I had actually forgotten THIS idea (of Xvim being the one transferred to Abeir), but I admit I still like it that possibly Gilgeam is Xvim from when Xvim was masquerading as Bane. This whole storyline where "Bane is back as some lesser entity" just screams to me that something funky is going on with him. He's a full on high up power in some form, but I think there's separate "aspects" of him floating about..... maybe as different people (Xvim, Bane, etc...).... or maybe he was split in a way similar to Manshoon. There's some bigger story at play.


Edited by - Bootravsky on 29 Dec 2020 15:42:54
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
9895 Posts

Posted - 30 Dec 2020 :  02:52:12  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bootravsky

Oh, that’s easy: nothing but slight phonetic similarities between Iyachtu Xvim and Ambuchar Devayam. I just like the idea of something that ties the east and west realms tighter. They’ve always felt so separate, since most Realms products ignore Semphar and Murghom. Wasn’t Bane from the East as a living being? I think Myrkul was from Murghom, and Baal was Netherese (4e...).


quote:


What makes you link Tan Chin of Kara-Tur (Ambuchar Devayam) and Jergal? For linking Gilgeam and Bane, there's several links in lore that hint that perhaps Gilgeam was taken over by Bane at some point (for instance the "Banespear" that was rumored to be able to slay Gilgeam, and the change in Gilgeam from a generally affable personality to a cold tyrant).

I had actually forgotten THIS idea (of Xvim being the one transferred to Abeir), but I admit I still like it that possibly Gilgeam is Xvim from when Xvim was masquerading as Bane. This whole storyline where "Bane is back as some lesser entity" just screams to me that something funky is going on with him. He's a full on high up power in some form, but I think there's separate "aspects" of him floating about..... maybe as different people (Xvim, Bane, etc...).... or maybe he was split in a way similar to Manshoon. There's some bigger story at play.





I don't see a lot of phonetic similarity between Ambuchar Devayam and Iyachtu Xvim, nor much similarity in their stories, nor anything to link Ambuchar to Jergal as his son.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Derulbaskul
Senior Scribe

Singapore
403 Posts

Posted - 10 Jan 2021 :  14:24:09  Show Profile Send Derulbaskul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Bane always had the ability to reincarnate.

Remember Dragon 57 with Ed's Down to Earth Divinity article. It mentions of Bane:

BANE The “big baddie,” Lord Bane is never seen, although there are tales of a freezing black-taloned hand and eyes
of blazing fire, and can be considered as roughly equivalent to Druaga (DDG, p.23). He does not, however, rule the archdevils (see Note #4).

Going to DDG, we see this of Druaga:
"Druaga only fights in person when his soul object (always put in a living being) is threatened. The soul object is the total essence of his being. If Druaga's bodily form is destroyed, the soul object will begin regenerating a whole new being with all the memories of the old devil. The human that has Druaga's soul implanted in him or her has no knowledge of this, and will die at the same time the devil body's dies, so that when the human's body is buried, there will be a safe place for the new devil to grow."



Cheers
D

NB: Please remember: A cannon is a big gun. Canon is what we discuss here.
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