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cpthero2
Great Reader

USA
2249 Posts

Posted - 05 Oct 2018 :  20:01:38  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Learned Scribe Misereor,

That is a fantastic acknowledgement of something really awesome! I never even had that in my mind. Is there any way you could dig more of that up and come back with a more robust analysis of that? I would really like to get your additional take on that!!!

Thank you and best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by Misereor


Regarding Cpthero2's insurance policy hypothesis:

There is one interesting bit in one of the Storm Silverhand novels. I forget the name because it was many years ago I read it, but it was some type of murder mystery that had a shard of Bane as the culprit.

When Storm tred to examine the shard, she discovered only that it was a fragment of someone that had once been a mortal man, and was so ashamed of his past that the shard committed suicide rather than let Storm find out anything more.

If Cpthero2 is correct, could the change in manifestation to become more like Xvim maybe be a tactic of Bane's to divest himself of any remains of his mortality?



Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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cpthero2
Great Reader

USA
2249 Posts

Posted - 05 Oct 2018 :  20:05:31  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader sleyvas,

DAMN! That is one hot, awesome-sauce, mega theory, and I for one love it! I didn't even think to connect Xvim going to Abeir! That is so deep, I have to ask Great Reader: were digging into the hallucinogenics last night, having a Xvimite divination ritual? You, Alaundo, and El Nar'ysr in a poker room sometime would be a fun as hell event to listen in on!

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Ok, I'm announcing from the outset... going out on a limb here with some of the ideas we've been throwing around the last year or two.

We've been wondering about three tyrannical entities... Bane, Xvim, and Gilgeam.... since the sundering and the last 2 brimstone angels novels. Gilgeam appears to be returned according to the novel, but he calls himself the "Son of Victory" instead of the "Father of Victory". He's also very weak and seemingly at least somewhat dependent on an item for his power. Still he professes to be Gilgeam, and people believe him.

We had been discussing the idea that where Mourktar WAS is all water during 4th edition, and that that area may have transferred to Abeir (the only indication otherwise is a RLB's novel which has them approaching a city CALLED Mourktar... which may be a "new" city established in the last century by survivors of vanished Mourktar within the remaining bounds of Threskel... I say new, because it may be 80 years old). In Mourktar was "the largest temple of Bane", but one which favored the colors of Green and Black, which were Xvim's traditional colors.


So, what if prior to the spellplague, Xvim HAD been trying to take over his father's shoes, then the spellplague happened. Perhaps it was original Bane "left behind"/"returned" to Toril, much as how Amaunator and other gods "returned"... and Xvim went to Abeir. Xvim then begins posing as Gilgeam to a displaced Untheric population. It should also be noted, Xvim is half-demonic, and the army that "Gilgeam"/"Son of Victory" is leading is supported by demons. Leading into this hypothesis is the idea that the novels indicate that Enlil sees something familiar in "Gilgeam", but also something different. If Xvim were to inhabit Gilgeam's former god flesh that might create this strange mix.


Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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cpthero2
Great Reader

USA
2249 Posts

Posted - 05 Oct 2018 :  20:13:01  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master Rupert,

I couldn't agree more! I loved Iyachtu Xvim as a deity. What a powerhouse. He really showed how amazingly shrewd such a profoundly evil god could be and bring tyranny, fear, and hatred a menacing and terrifying name of power to truly be contended with!

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by rowwhenn

My pleasure ; I dislike Xvim , and when you want to fight something , better you know it , better you'll win



Myself, I liked Xvim. I thought he had much better style than Bane... I was actually disappointed to read of Bane's return.


Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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cpthero2
Great Reader

USA
2249 Posts

Posted - 05 Oct 2018 :  20:14:08  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Learned Scribe Phantom_Lord,

Sadly, he didn't have all that much information done up on him. Yet one more amazing deity that had a significant lack of exploration done to develop a true powerhouse!

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by Phantom_Lord

I needed some comprehensive info on this quasi-power. Pre-ToT of course.

For example, the origins of Xvim are not entirely clear some say his mum was a demon some say she was a goody two shoes paladin that fell head over heels for Bane. He was also a ruler of Westgate for a while!

Anyone with any notes or info on Xvim?

Thanks, much appreciated!

Phantom_Lord


Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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cpthero2
Great Reader

USA
2249 Posts

Posted - 05 Oct 2018 :  20:15:56  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Learned Scribe Neil,

Well, I will have to respectfully disagree with you regarding the implication of Xvim not having brains. In Tymora's Luck, he was devastatingly intelligent. It was shocking how epic he was in that novel.

Best regards,



quote:
Originally posted by Neil

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Myself, I liked Xvim. I thought he had much better style than Bane... I was actually disappointed to read of Bane's return.

'Banite' sounds better than 'Xvimlar'. That, and I really liked Bane, and missed him while he was gone. He was a god with tradition, brains and charisma, although as I understood it, certain TSR policies related to morality in the novels and sourcebooks made him come off a little like Dr. Claw ("I'll get you next time, Gadget! Next time!")

Bringing back Bane in the official products saves me the trouble of doing it myself. ;)


Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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cpthero2
Great Reader

USA
2249 Posts

Posted - 05 Oct 2018 :  20:17:13  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master Rupert,

Agreed with the name issue. Xvimlar sounds, to me at least, much better than Banite. Just a preference though.

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Neil

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Myself, I liked Xvim. I thought he had much better style than Bane... I was actually disappointed to read of Bane's return.

'Banite' sounds better than 'Xvimlar'. That, and I really liked Bane, and missed him while he was gone. He was a god with tradition, brains and charisma, although as I understood it, certain TSR policies related to morality in the novels and sourcebooks made him come off a little like Dr. Claw ("I'll get you next time, Gadget! Next time!")

Bringing back Bane in the official products saves me the trouble of doing it myself. ;)



I don't even like the name "Bane", much less terms like "Banite". "Iyachtu Xvim" is a cool name to say, and "Xvimlar" very much works for me.


Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
9896 Posts

Posted - 05 Oct 2018 :  22:59:02  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Great Reader sleyvas,

DAMN! That is one hot, awesome-sauce, mega theory, and I for one love it! I didn't even think to connect Xvim going to Abeir! That is so deep, I have to ask Great Reader: were digging into the hallucinogenics last night, having a Xvimite divination ritual? You, Alaundo, and El Nar'ysr in a poker room sometime would be a fun as hell event to listen in on!

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Ok, I'm announcing from the outset... going out on a limb here with some of the ideas we've been throwing around the last year or two.

We've been wondering about three tyrannical entities... Bane, Xvim, and Gilgeam.... since the sundering and the last 2 brimstone angels novels. Gilgeam appears to be returned according to the novel, but he calls himself the "Son of Victory" instead of the "Father of Victory". He's also very weak and seemingly at least somewhat dependent on an item for his power. Still he professes to be Gilgeam, and people believe him.

We had been discussing the idea that where Mourktar WAS is all water during 4th edition, and that that area may have transferred to Abeir (the only indication otherwise is a RLB's novel which has them approaching a city CALLED Mourktar... which may be a "new" city established in the last century by survivors of vanished Mourktar within the remaining bounds of Threskel... I say new, because it may be 80 years old). In Mourktar was "the largest temple of Bane", but one which favored the colors of Green and Black, which were Xvim's traditional colors.


So, what if prior to the spellplague, Xvim HAD been trying to take over his father's shoes, then the spellplague happened. Perhaps it was original Bane "left behind"/"returned" to Toril, much as how Amaunator and other gods "returned"... and Xvim went to Abeir. Xvim then begins posing as Gilgeam to a displaced Untheric population. It should also be noted, Xvim is half-demonic, and the army that "Gilgeam"/"Son of Victory" is leading is supported by demons. Leading into this hypothesis is the idea that the novels indicate that Enlil sees something familiar in "Gilgeam", but also something different. If Xvim were to inhabit Gilgeam's former god flesh that might create this strange mix.





Thank you, and I don't use such products, but I do come up with wild ideas a lot. The other folks often have to reign me in by catching the parts I may miss, which usually leads to more extrapolation, and better ideas.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
9896 Posts

Posted - 05 Oct 2018 :  22:59:36  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Great Reader sleyvas,

DAMN! That is one hot, awesome-sauce, mega theory, and I for one love it! I didn't even think to connect Xvim going to Abeir! That is so deep, I have to ask Great Reader: were digging into the hallucinogenics last night, having a Xvimite divination ritual? You, Alaundo, and El Nar'ysr in a poker room sometime would be a fun as hell event to listen in on!

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Ok, I'm announcing from the outset... going out on a limb here with some of the ideas we've been throwing around the last year or two.

We've been wondering about three tyrannical entities... Bane, Xvim, and Gilgeam.... since the sundering and the last 2 brimstone angels novels. Gilgeam appears to be returned according to the novel, but he calls himself the "Son of Victory" instead of the "Father of Victory". He's also very weak and seemingly at least somewhat dependent on an item for his power. Still he professes to be Gilgeam, and people believe him.

We had been discussing the idea that where Mourktar WAS is all water during 4th edition, and that that area may have transferred to Abeir (the only indication otherwise is a RLB's novel which has them approaching a city CALLED Mourktar... which may be a "new" city established in the last century by survivors of vanished Mourktar within the remaining bounds of Threskel... I say new, because it may be 80 years old). In Mourktar was "the largest temple of Bane", but one which favored the colors of Green and Black, which were Xvim's traditional colors.


So, what if prior to the spellplague, Xvim HAD been trying to take over his father's shoes, then the spellplague happened. Perhaps it was original Bane "left behind"/"returned" to Toril, much as how Amaunator and other gods "returned"... and Xvim went to Abeir. Xvim then begins posing as Gilgeam to a displaced Untheric population. It should also be noted, Xvim is half-demonic, and the army that "Gilgeam"/"Son of Victory" is leading is supported by demons. Leading into this hypothesis is the idea that the novels indicate that Enlil sees something familiar in "Gilgeam", but also something different. If Xvim were to inhabit Gilgeam's former god flesh that might create this strange mix.





Thank you, and I don't use such products, but I do come up with wild ideas a lot. The other folks often have to reign me in by catching the parts I may miss, which usually leads to more extrapolation, and better ideas.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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cpthero2
Great Reader

USA
2249 Posts

Posted - 06 Oct 2018 :  03:38:45  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader sleyvas,

You're quite welcome!

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Great Reader sleyvas,

DAMN! That is one hot, awesome-sauce, mega theory, and I for one love it! I didn't even think to connect Xvim going to Abeir! That is so deep, I have to ask Great Reader: were digging into the hallucinogenics last night, having a Xvimite divination ritual? You, Alaundo, and El Nar'ysr in a poker room sometime would be a fun as hell event to listen in on!

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Ok, I'm announcing from the outset... going out on a limb here with some of the ideas we've been throwing around the last year or two.

We've been wondering about three tyrannical entities... Bane, Xvim, and Gilgeam.... since the sundering and the last 2 brimstone angels novels. Gilgeam appears to be returned according to the novel, but he calls himself the "Son of Victory" instead of the "Father of Victory". He's also very weak and seemingly at least somewhat dependent on an item for his power. Still he professes to be Gilgeam, and people believe him.

We had been discussing the idea that where Mourktar WAS is all water during 4th edition, and that that area may have transferred to Abeir (the only indication otherwise is a RLB's novel which has them approaching a city CALLED Mourktar... which may be a "new" city established in the last century by survivors of vanished Mourktar within the remaining bounds of Threskel... I say new, because it may be 80 years old). In Mourktar was "the largest temple of Bane", but one which favored the colors of Green and Black, which were Xvim's traditional colors.


So, what if prior to the spellplague, Xvim HAD been trying to take over his father's shoes, then the spellplague happened. Perhaps it was original Bane "left behind"/"returned" to Toril, much as how Amaunator and other gods "returned"... and Xvim went to Abeir. Xvim then begins posing as Gilgeam to a displaced Untheric population. It should also be noted, Xvim is half-demonic, and the army that "Gilgeam"/"Son of Victory" is leading is supported by demons. Leading into this hypothesis is the idea that the novels indicate that Enlil sees something familiar in "Gilgeam", but also something different. If Xvim were to inhabit Gilgeam's former god flesh that might create this strange mix.





Thank you, and I don't use such products, but I do come up with wild ideas a lot. The other folks often have to reign me in by catching the parts I may miss, which usually leads to more extrapolation, and better ideas.


Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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redking
Seeker

61 Posts

Posted - 07 Oct 2018 :  01:15:18  Show Profile Send redking a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I am with Wooly Rupert. Xvim is Bane, Bane is Xvim.

It might be interesting to throw that in as a new Banite doctrine. A duality, father and son as one being.
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cpthero2
Great Reader

USA
2249 Posts

Posted - 07 Oct 2018 :  14:49:53  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Seeker redking,

I can absolutely see that. Though, I can see that they are and are not, at the exact same time.

I mean...there are rumors from the real world there is a religion that has some sort of confusing group of entities being individual and the same at the same time...

Best regards,



quote:
Originally posted by redking

I am with Wooly Rupert. Xvim is Bane, Bane is Xvim.

It might be interesting to throw that in as a new Banite doctrine. A duality, father and son as one being.


Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Misereor
Learned Scribe

164 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2018 :  08:01:14  Show Profile Send Misereor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by redking
It might be interesting to throw that in as a new Banite doctrine. A duality, father and son as one being.



If an Unholy Ghost shows up at some point, I'm calling shenanigans.

What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder, stronger, in a later edition.
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Misereor
Learned Scribe

164 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2018 :  08:11:31  Show Profile Send Misereor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
That is a fantastic acknowledgement of something really awesome! I never even had that in my mind. Is there any way you could dig more of that up and come back with a more robust analysis of that?



I'm afraid not. Between a flooded basement and a divorce, I usually have to go by recollection when quoting stuff. Lost damn near a full collection of FR stuff from 1st and 2nd ed. >:p


What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder, stronger, in a later edition.
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cpthero2
Great Reader

USA
2249 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2018 :  13:46:32  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Learned Scribe Misereor,

haha...fair enough!

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by Misereor

quote:
Originally posted by redking
It might be interesting to throw that in as a new Banite doctrine. A duality, father and son as one being.



If an Unholy Ghost shows up at some point, I'm calling shenanigans.



Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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cpthero2
Great Reader

USA
2249 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2018 :  13:54:56  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Learned Scribe Misereor,

Wow. I commiserate.

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by Misereor

quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
That is a fantastic acknowledgement of something really awesome! I never even had that in my mind. Is there any way you could dig more of that up and come back with a more robust analysis of that?



I'm afraid not. Between a flooded basement and a divorce, I usually have to go by recollection when quoting stuff. Lost damn near a full collection of FR stuff from 1st and 2nd ed. >:p




Higher Atlar
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Returnip
Learned Scribe

208 Posts

Posted - 14 Dec 2020 :  13:58:41  Show Profile Send Returnip a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Xvim is Bane 2.0.


I thought that was pretty obvious. Didn't know it was contested. A vision is just a vision, and Xvim could have planted it as it was percieved on purpose, sending a message. I never assumed that vision described was literally what had happened.

On the other hand you have different fingers.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34467 Posts

Posted - 14 Dec 2020 :  17:50:00  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Returnip

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Xvim is Bane 2.0.


I thought that was pretty obvious. Didn't know it was contested. A vision is just a vision, and Xvim could have planted it as it was percieved on purpose, sending a message. I never assumed that vision described was literally what had happened.



It's never been conclusively stated anywhere, and even if it was the intent, I think it's been forgotten or disregarded by the current design team... Which is sad, because -- in my opinion, of course -- it's one of the many opportunities to make things more interesting that was utterly kicked to the curb by later designers.

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Returnip
Learned Scribe

208 Posts

Posted - 14 Dec 2020 :  18:54:38  Show Profile Send Returnip a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

It's never been conclusively stated anywhere..


No, I get that. I just thought it was obvious. I tend to think of divine power not as people but as an energy in these cases. The domains move around between the gods of the Forgotten Realms all the time. Xvim calls himself Bane. Tiamat calls herself Entropy. These beings will do anything for a little more power.

On the other hand you have different fingers.
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe

USA
475 Posts

Posted - 14 Dec 2020 :  19:40:24  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Now imagine Xvim not only posing as Bane, but splitting off a portion of his essence to go to Abeir per Sleyvas' ruminations. So Xvim is Bane on Toril and Gilgeam on Abeir. Quite a way to double-dip.
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Returnip
Learned Scribe

208 Posts

Posted - 14 Dec 2020 :  20:52:49  Show Profile Send Returnip a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've tried to understand the difference between Abeir and Toril but none of the links I've googled up has provided me with any satisfying explanation. Would you care to enlighten me or point me to a link that explains it?

On the other hand you have different fingers.
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6065 Posts

Posted - 14 Dec 2020 :  21:02:49  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's the world that Ao split off of what was originally Abeir-Toril. Now it's a wholly separate world with few direct connections to Toril - like it is in a different dimension. Every once in a while, there is a cosmic conjunction and the two interface. Such as the time of the Spelllplague. But that's 4E lore so details are sketchy.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Returnip
Learned Scribe

208 Posts

Posted - 14 Dec 2020 :  21:20:19  Show Profile Send Returnip a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

It's the world that Ao split off of what was originally Abeir-Toril. Now it's a wholly separate world with few direct connections to Toril - like it is in a different dimension. Every once in a while, there is a cosmic conjunction and the two interface. Such as the time of the Spelllplague. But that's 4E lore so details are sketchy.

-- George Krashos



Ok, so two copies of the same reality but just slightly out of sync? Like vision after a hard hit to the head or after a few drinks too many? Or perhaps you can only see one of them at a time?

On the other hand you have different fingers.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34467 Posts

Posted - 14 Dec 2020 :  22:25:22  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Returnip

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

It's the world that Ao split off of what was originally Abeir-Toril. Now it's a wholly separate world with few direct connections to Toril - like it is in a different dimension. Every once in a while, there is a cosmic conjunction and the two interface. Such as the time of the Spelllplague. But that's 4E lore so details are sketchy.

-- George Krashos



Ok, so two copies of the same reality but just slightly out of sync? Like vision after a hard hit to the head or after a few drinks too many? Or perhaps you can only see one of them at a time?



Not even a copy, which is one of the reasons the idea just doesn't work for me. It's a separate world with its own distinct landmasses and everything. It's a fraternal twin, not an identical one.

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Delnyn
Senior Scribe

USA
475 Posts

Posted - 14 Dec 2020 :  23:26:47  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Also, Abeir until 4E had primordials (Dawn Titans) but no gods (Estelar). The afterlife of an Abeiran soul is unknown, but whatever it is, Kelemvor has no say in the matter.

The Abeir-Toril split happened about -31,000 DR. One of the primodrials (Asgorath IIRC) tried to hurl an ice moon at the original planet Abeir-Toril. Ao split the planet to prevent destruction. The gods (and primordials such as Ubtao who sided with them) got Toril and the primordials got Abeir.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

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34467 Posts

Posted - 15 Dec 2020 :  03:21:06  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

Also, Abeir until 4E had primordials (Dawn Titans) but no gods (Estelar). The afterlife of an Abeiran soul is unknown, but whatever it is, Kelemvor has no say in the matter.

The Abeir-Toril split happened about -31,000 DR. One of the primodrials (Asgorath IIRC) tried to hurl an ice moon at the original planet Abeir-Toril. Ao split the planet to prevent destruction. The gods (and primordials such as Ubtao who sided with them) got Toril and the primordials got Abeir.



Apparently making a new planet is easier than stopping a big snowball.

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