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 Drow attitudes toward surface elves...
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arilyn742
Seeker

Ireland
54 Posts

Posted - 22 Aug 2004 :  01:59:01  Show Profile  Visit arilyn742's Homepage  Send arilyn742 a Yahoo! Message Send arilyn742 a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I notice drow seem to call the others traitors a lot. Do we know exactly what the dhaeraow (sp?) - meaning traitor - think their cousins did? Or is it simply jealousy that became part of the ideology of an entire race?

Also, I recall in Homeland the surface elves are referred to "faeries". Is that just exaggerated in that book, still common, or changed since then?

(The content of the second paragraph might just be paranoia on my part - I'm relatively new to the Realms and I basically know only what's in the modern sourcebooks and early novels, and am convinced that TSR/WotC have probably changed things radically since the early Driizzt books were written.)

Yonde iru, mune no doko ka oku de
Itsumo kokoro odoru yume wo mitai
Kanashimi wa kazoekirenai keredo
Sono mukou de kitto anata ni aeru

Icewolf
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Posted - 22 Aug 2004 :  02:14:34  Show Profile  Visit Icewolf's Homepage  Click to see Icewolf's MSN Messenger address  Send Icewolf a Yahoo! Message Send Icewolf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Drow and the surface elves had a great war in ages past, and the evil drow were driven underground. That, and lots of time and hate-breeding culture shifts caused the dark elves' to resent their surface cousins.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 22 Aug 2004 :  02:28:55  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by arilyn742

I notice drow seem to call the others traitors a lot. Do we know exactly what the dhaeraow (sp?) - meaning traitor - think their cousins did? Or is it simply jealousy that became part of the ideology of an entire race?


'Tis propaganda. It's all about their racial pride. Were they driven underground, forced to flee from the elves they made a losing war upon? Nay! The drow deliberately sought out the cool embrace of the Underdark, leaving the wicked races of the surface to boil in the blistering sun. At least, that's the drow way of looking at it.

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arilyn742
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Ireland
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Posted - 22 Aug 2004 :  19:59:54  Show Profile  Visit arilyn742's Homepage  Send arilyn742 a Yahoo! Message Send arilyn742 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I thank thee, o Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen. I can understand that it's propaganda and that drow deliberately went down into their underworld, but what exactly do the drow say the "faeries" did to be called traitors?

And didn't they win the war and get punished by Corellon afterwards?

Yonde iru, mune no doko ka oku de
Itsumo kokoro odoru yume wo mitai
Kanashimi wa kazoekirenai keredo
Sono mukou de kitto anata ni aeru
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Faraer
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Posted - 22 Aug 2004 :  20:33:38  Show Profile  Visit Faraer's Homepage Send Faraer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In the original Monster Manual, 'faerie' is a synonym of 'gray elf', though the term isn't commonly used in Realmslore for any kind of elf.
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arilyn742
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Ireland
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Posted - 23 Aug 2004 :  23:10:51  Show Profile  Visit arilyn742's Homepage  Send arilyn742 a Yahoo! Message Send arilyn742 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well according to the 3E Monster Manual and 3E FRCS "Gray Elves" correspond to sun elves in the Realms, which could be the main ones that drow are referring to. Although I think the phrase is actually used in Elfshadow to refer to moon elves (as opposed to high elves, which I think are sun elves).

Yonde iru, mune no doko ka oku de
Itsumo kokoro odoru yume wo mitai
Kanashimi wa kazoekirenai keredo
Sono mukou de kitto anata ni aeru
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SiriusBlack
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USA
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Posted - 24 Aug 2004 :  00:06:32  Show Profile  Visit SiriusBlack's Homepage Send SiriusBlack a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by arilyn742

Well according to the 3E Monster Manual and 3E FRCS "Gray Elves" correspond to sun elves in the Realms, which could be the main ones that drow are referring to. Although I think the phrase is actually used in Elfshadow to refer to moon elves (as opposed to high elves, which I think are sun elves).



The Elves of Evermeet tome established that the term "gray elf" is an insult used to refer to moon elves.
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Talwyn
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Australia
222 Posts

Posted - 26 Aug 2004 :  03:29:41  Show Profile  Visit Talwyn's Homepage Send Talwyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by arilyn742

I thank thee, o Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen. I can understand that it's propaganda and that drow deliberately went down into their underworld, but what exactly do the drow say the "faeries" did to be called traitors?

And didn't they win the war and get punished by Corellon afterwards?



No the Drow didn't win the war they were driven underground by Corellon and the other gods of the Seldarine. Lloth was Corellon wife (Queen) and it was she that started the lust for power and dominion over all the other races of the world.
Quote from "The Complete Book of Elves" 2ed:
"The great Elf cities of old deteriorated, and the Spider Queen Lloth gained a foothold in the hearts of many Elves. They used her to gain greater power and influence, and her evil ways led them even further astray. The Elves practiced dark magic and forbidden lore to make themselves mighty, and they turned from the light they had loved so much.
The tensions grew unbearable. Tne Elves who had embraced the teachings of Lloth marched into the cities and slaughtered their brethern. The first attack came under cover of darkness...
(I'm jumping ahead here) ... The Corellon struck Lloth a telling blow, driving here deep into the earth. With her defeat, the haze over the battlefield lifted, allowing the bright rays of the sun to bathe in the land in its healing rays.
The Drow turned their faces from the suns purification, preferring instead their fallen goddess. They consciously chose the shadows over light, and Corellon decreed that such treachery would forever show upon their faces. It is for this reason that the skin of the Drow is dark."

Now that's a bit of religious propagnda from the Elves point of view and since THEY won the war, they can write the history.
However, in Ed Greenwoods "The Drow of the Underdark" he tells of a Drow sage, Shahaerynus who lived in Myth Drannor long ago and compiled a book of lore entitled "The High History of the Drow".

This is a quote from "The Drow of the Underdark":
"We know very little of the Ilythiiri, or "Elves of the South" before this crucial event (the descent). Even then, they were known as "Dark Elves", for the hue of their skins. They dwelt in jungles and hot forests of the South. A proud, warlike, culturally advanced (some sages of other elven peoples say "decadent") folk, the Ilythiiri attacked all neighbours, including other elven tribes. Their cruel raids and depridations, ordered by the warlike nobility and the clergy of the their two cruel dieties, Lloth & Ghaunadaur, forced elevs, humans dwarves and others to ally against them.
Deafeated in a series of titanic magical battles, the dark elves fled into underground warrens which they'd earlier discovered."


So although the drow called their cousins traitors, it is they who enacted the treachery. They call the others who stood against them traitors, as civil wars are the most bitter conflicts and bred the most hatred. Also they want to see themselves as the wronged patry in the whole scheme of things, try to justify their actions somewhat.




Over the centuries, mankind has tried many ways of combating the forces of evil...prayer, fasting, good works and so on.
Up until Doom, no one seemed to have thought about the double-barrel shotgun.
EAT LEADEN DEATH DEMON!
Terry Pratchett


Edited by - Talwyn on 26 Aug 2004 03:33:45
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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USA
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Posted - 26 Aug 2004 :  05:22:01  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Talwyn

So although the drow called their cousins traitors, it is they who enacted the treachery. They call the others who stood against them traitors, as civil wars are the most bitter conflicts and bred the most hatred. Also they want to see themselves as the wronged patry in the whole scheme of things, try to justify their actions somewhat.


Propaganda, as I said. It makes them look like the good guys (in their own eyes), and gives them a reason to hate elves.

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Talwyn
Learned Scribe

Australia
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Posted - 26 Aug 2004 :  09:09:50  Show Profile  Visit Talwyn's Homepage Send Talwyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just as a little extra information on the drow: in my wanderings, I came across this site

http://trismegist.nm.ru/de_eilistraee_eng.html

when looking for detailed information on the drow.
It's a Russian site but the content is mostly in english and it has an enormous amount of detail on all the drow gods.
I'm not sure if it's still an active sight and who to talk with in regards to preserving the information there.


Over the centuries, mankind has tried many ways of combating the forces of evil...prayer, fasting, good works and so on.
Up until Doom, no one seemed to have thought about the double-barrel shotgun.
EAT LEADEN DEATH DEMON!
Terry Pratchett

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31599 Posts

Posted - 26 Aug 2004 :  15:50:45  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Talwyn

Just as a little extra information on the drow: in my wanderings, I came across this site

http://trismegist.nm.ru/de_eilistraee_eng.html

when looking for detailed information on the drow.
It's a Russian site but the content is mostly in english and it has an enormous amount of detail on all the drow gods.
I'm not sure if it's still an active sight and who to talk with in regards to preserving the information there.





At a glance, that looks like the information from Demihuman Deities.

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SiriusBlack
Great Reader

USA
5517 Posts

Posted - 26 Aug 2004 :  15:59:09  Show Profile  Visit SiriusBlack's Homepage Send SiriusBlack a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
At a glance, that looks like the information from Demihuman Deities.



If so, it's not the only site out there with information from that tome. It almost seems sometimes that a patient web browser could possibly print out the contents of the entire tome after visiting certain sites.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31599 Posts

Posted - 26 Aug 2004 :  17:33:23  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
At a glance, that looks like the information from Demihuman Deities.



If so, it's not the only site out there with information from that tome. It almost seems sometimes that a patient web browser could possibly print out the contents of the entire tome after visiting certain sites.



'Tis likely so... I know that several months ago, I found a site that appeared to have most of the contents of the various 2E Complete Handbooks posted... And yeah, I've seen several sites that reprinted, in whole or in part, info from the three 2E god books.

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tauster
Senior Scribe

Germany
399 Posts

Posted - 26 Aug 2004 :  17:42:45  Show Profile  Visit tauster's Homepage Send tauster a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
And yeah, I've seen several sites that reprinted, in whole or in part, info from the three 2E god books.


could you pleas pmī me the urlīs of these sides? i have all three books (in quite different states of preservation; Faith&Avatars and Demihuman Deities are among the most frequently used book in our group) but the texts in digital form would be an immense help for assembling the information about the knightly orders of the respective faiths!

Edited by - tauster on 26 Aug 2004 17:43:12
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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USA
31599 Posts

Posted - 26 Aug 2004 :  18:20:54  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by tauster

quote:
And yeah, I've seen several sites that reprinted, in whole or in part, info from the three 2E god books.


could you pleas pmī me the urlīs of these sides? i have all three books (in quite different states of preservation; Faith&Avatars and Demihuman Deities are among the most frequently used book in our group) but the texts in digital form would be an immense help for assembling the information about the knightly orders of the respective faiths!



I haven't actually saved the URLs, sadly. Since I've got the books in print, I saw little reason to. Sorry.

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SiriusBlack
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USA
5517 Posts

Posted - 26 Aug 2004 :  19:08:01  Show Profile  Visit SiriusBlack's Homepage Send SiriusBlack a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I haven't actually saved the URLs, sadly. Since I've got the books in print, I saw little reason to. Sorry.



A patient and thorough search using any search engine will reveal such sites. From there, it's a simple process of deciding how to save the information found.
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Talwyn
Learned Scribe

Australia
222 Posts

Posted - 27 Aug 2004 :  00:59:29  Show Profile  Visit Talwyn's Homepage Send Talwyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
[quote
At a glance, that looks like the information from Demihuman Deities.
[/quote]

Wooly, would that be the 2ndEd tome you are refering to?
I have a copy of that and I don't thin it mentioned Eilistraee at all. In fact it skipped a couple of demihuman gods completely.
I don't have any of the 3rdEd books so I can't compare but this site seems to have a lot of detail for the Drow gods.
My question to all learned sages: is it Canon?
here's the site again for those interested.

http://trismegist.nm.ru/de_eilistraee_eng.html





Over the centuries, mankind has tried many ways of combating the forces of evil...prayer, fasting, good works and so on.
Up until Doom, no one seemed to have thought about the double-barrel shotgun.
EAT LEADEN DEATH DEMON!
Terry Pratchett

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Kuje
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USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 27 Aug 2004 :  01:20:46  Show Profile Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Talwyn
Wooly, would that be the 2ndEd tome you are refering to?
I have a copy of that and I don't thin it mentioned Eilistraee at all. In fact it skipped a couple of demihuman gods completely.
I don't have any of the 3rdEd books so I can't compare but this site seems to have a lot of detail for the Drow gods.


Then you got a bum copy, because all of the remaining living drow gods of Faerun are in that 2e sourcebook. Yes Eilistraee is included as well.

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

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Talwyn
Learned Scribe

Australia
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Posted - 27 Aug 2004 :  01:49:00  Show Profile  Visit Talwyn's Homepage Send Talwyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I thought that there was something amiss with that book.
Seriously, it didn't have Eilistraee in the drow section but had all the rest. It also missed Rillifane as well which was quite annoying for me as one of my PC's had a druid henchman who worshiped the LeafLord, yet there was nothing in there about him! He got a mention in the intro part on the Elven gods but nothing more than that.
I''d like to add there are no pages missing from that book either.
Makes you wonder who was in charge of the quality control at TSR when they published that book. Oh wait, I remember: no one was!
That's why they were taken over by WoTC and were on the verge of bankruptcy.


Over the centuries, mankind has tried many ways of combating the forces of evil...prayer, fasting, good works and so on.
Up until Doom, no one seemed to have thought about the double-barrel shotgun.
EAT LEADEN DEATH DEMON!
Terry Pratchett

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31599 Posts

Posted - 27 Aug 2004 :  03:10:54  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wow, your copy is missing deities but not pages? I'd not heard of anyone having that problem before...

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Kuje
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USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 27 Aug 2004 :  03:26:27  Show Profile Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Talwyn

I thought that there was something amiss with that book.
Seriously, it didn't have Eilistraee in the drow section but had all the rest. It also missed Rillifane as well which was quite annoying for me as one of my PC's had a druid henchman who worshiped the LeafLord, yet there was nothing in there about him! He got a mention in the intro part on the Elven gods but nothing more than that.
I''d like to add there are no pages missing from that book either.
Makes you wonder who was in charge of the quality control at TSR when they published that book. Oh wait, I remember: no one was!
That's why they were taken over by WoTC and were on the verge of bankruptcy.


I say again, you got a bum copy then cause I know my copy has both deities in it. :) It had to be a printing error, so it's not really TSR's fault, just like the Eberon printing errors were not WOTC's fault.

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

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Talwyn
Learned Scribe

Australia
222 Posts

Posted - 27 Aug 2004 :  03:40:54  Show Profile  Visit Talwyn's Homepage Send Talwyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Wow, your copy is missing deities but not pages? I'd not heard of anyone having that problem before...



It's true! No rillifane or eilistraee. I don't have the book with me at the moment (it's back in Perth) but those deities are not in the book.

Over the centuries, mankind has tried many ways of combating the forces of evil...prayer, fasting, good works and so on.
Up until Doom, no one seemed to have thought about the double-barrel shotgun.
EAT LEADEN DEATH DEMON!
Terry Pratchett

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cpthero2
Senior Scribe

USA
472 Posts

Posted - 01 Oct 2018 :  17:00:40  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
seeker arilyn742,

Well, the Crown Wars pretty much spelled that all out. The Dark Elves became Drow after Corellon Larethian smashed them for doing nasty stuff, including using a demon named Wendonai to corrupt those Elves. They hate each other 100%.

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by arilyn742

I notice drow seem to call the others traitors a lot. Do we know exactly what the dhaeraow (sp?) - meaning traitor - think their cousins did? Or is it simply jealousy that became part of the ideology of an entire race?

Also, I recall in Homeland the surface elves are referred to "faeries". Is that just exaggerated in that book, still common, or changed since then?

(The content of the second paragraph might just be paranoia on my part - I'm relatively new to the Realms and I basically know only what's in the modern sourcebooks and early novels, and am convinced that TSR/WotC have probably changed things radically since the early Driizzt books were written.)


Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore

Brazil
1466 Posts

Posted - 17 Oct 2018 :  14:42:50  Show Profile  Click to see Barastir's MSN Messenger address Send Barastir a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Talwyn
It's true! No rillifane or eilistraee. I don't have the book with me at the moment (it's back in Perth) but those deities are not in the book.


He was probably mentioning Monster Mythology, not Demihuman Deities. Don't remember about Eilistraee, but Rillifane was really forgotten, and an apology - along with a write-up - was published in Dragon Magazine # 191 (March 1993).

EDIT: Checked it out yesterday, Eilistraee is not there, too. So they were probably refering to Monster Mythology, as I guessed.

"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."

The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood)

Edited by - Barastir on 18 Oct 2018 15:32:08
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