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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Jul 2004 : 15:11:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Rad
Im with you on that point, Sirius! I was quite excited with the ending of Evermeet, and have been hoping for a follow-up ever since.
I'm hoping that Richard Baker addresses this point, no matter how brief, in his novel that comes out next month. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2004 : 15:12:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
"Does anything stay dead in the 3ed FR?"
Well, so far, Azoun IV has stayed dead...  
He's not dead! He's just been updated to Azoun 5.0 |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2004 : 15:33:16
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
"Does anything stay dead in the 3ed FR?"
Well, so far, Azoun IV has stayed dead...
He's not dead! He's just been updated to Azoun 5.0
Last time I checked it was the Kingdom of Cormyr not the Kingdom of Microsoft  |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Beowulf
Learned Scribe
Canada
322 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2004 : 15:57:27
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
"Does anything stay dead in the 3ed FR?"
Well, so far, Azoun IV has stayed dead...
He's not dead! He's just been updated to Azoun 5.0
The good Lord Orgauth is   |
"Ill tempered the wretch, who laughs at everyone. He cannot recognize, as he should, that he is not without faults." the High One, Poetic Edda |
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Beowulf
Learned Scribe
Canada
322 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2004 : 16:02:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Beowulf
The good Lord Orgauth is
[/quote]
I do beleive that Kazgoroth has also stayed dead. So much for the "balance". Oh, but wait, isn't that Kendrick fellow dead too? |
"Ill tempered the wretch, who laughs at everyone. He cannot recognize, as he should, that he is not without faults." the High One, Poetic Edda |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2004 : 17:05:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Beowulf
I do beleive that Kazgoroth has also stayed dead. So much for the "balance". Oh, but wait, isn't that Kendrick fellow dead too?
The only Kendrick that is dead is Deirdrie, the rest of the family is still alive. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2004 : 17:06:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Consistency with 2E stuff is dead...
Here, Here! :) To true :( |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Sarelle
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
508 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2004 : 17:11:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Consistency with 2E stuff is dead...
Not so  - I believe this is another 'Back from the Dead', with the careful research aparantly put into SK and SS! Might not stay that way... but give credit where possible. |
Chair of the The Rightful Return of Monster Deities to FR Society (RRMDFRS)
My character, drawn by Liodain: Sarelle / Sarelle (smaller) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2004 : 17:51:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Sarelle
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Consistency with 2E stuff is dead...
Not so - I believe this is another 'Back from the Dead', with the careful research aparantly put into SK and SS! Might not stay that way... but give credit where possible.
Maybe in that one case... But look at how much other stuff was changed. The unexplained and arbitrary changes far outweigh the ones that can be explained. Thus, consistency with the 2E stuff is dead. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Sarelle
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
508 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2004 : 19:16:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Sarelle
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Consistency with 2E stuff is dead...
Not so - I believe this is another 'Back from the Dead', with the careful research aparantly put into SK and SS! Might not stay that way... but give credit where possible.
Maybe in that one case... But look at how much other stuff was changed. The unexplained and arbitrary changes far outweigh the ones that can be explained. Thus, consistency with the 2E stuff is dead.
Oh, I agree with you that that has up until now the consistency has most certainly been dead. But it doesn't appear to be so in SK, and shouldn't be in SS, so at least for now - its 'back from the dead' (those being the most recent FR tomes).
However, admitedly, it does seem unlikely that the trend will keep up. |
Chair of the The Rightful Return of Monster Deities to FR Society (RRMDFRS)
My character, drawn by Liodain: Sarelle / Sarelle (smaller) |
Edited by - Sarelle on 13 Jul 2004 19:17:41 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6647 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2004 : 05:07:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Sarelle
However, admitedly, it does seem unlikely that the trend will keep up.
Care to put money on that?
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2004 : 05:47:31
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Care to put money on that?
-- George Krashos
You're on.
If the trend continues, you get to buy me The Shining South when it comes out.
If the trend doesn't continue, you get to buy me The Shining South when it comes out.
Deal?
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2004 : 06:22:15
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Care to put money on that?
-- George Krashos
You're on.
If the trend continues, you get to buy me The Shining South when it comes out.
If the trend doesn't continue, you get to buy me The Shining South when it comes out.
Deal?
Ooh, can I get in on this action, too? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6647 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2004 : 05:29:02
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If Shining South is anything like Elminster's Daughter over here in Australia, it'll be 4E time before I get a copy ... 
Rest easy all - continuity in FR products continues to be one of the fundamental aspects of the design process. I can't wait for the next 3-5 FR products to hit the shelves.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2004 : 05:44:03
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
If Shining South is anything like Elminster's Daughter over here in Australia, it'll be 4E time before I get a copy ...
Rest easy all - continuity in FR products continues to be one of the fundamental aspects of the design process. I can't wait for the next 3-5 FR products to hit the shelves.
-- George Krashos
Ah but thats what Amazons for
By the Time Shining South comes and Out in October there will be enough items in my cart to justify another order ie Shining South, MM3, Liberis Mortis and The Two Swords
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“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2004 : 08:12:30
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My cart will likely contain the same products, although I'm still reserving my decision about purchasing MMIII. That's currently on my "maybe" list. I'll see what other scribes have to say about this particular monster book, before I make the final decision about purchasing it.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2004 : 08:19:58
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
My cart will likely contain the same products, although I'm still reserving my decision about purchasing MMIII. That's currently on my "maybe" list. I'll see what other scribes have to say about this particular monster book, before I make the final decision about purchasing it.
Well fortuantely MM3 comes out a Month+ before LM, SS and TS so there will be plenty of time to gauge peoples reactions before I need to process my order |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2004 : 09:29:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
We've had enough returns, now let's have something new.
How about not?
How about we actually stick with the wealth that the Realms already offers before we try to fix something that doesn't need it?
Personally, whatever my other dislikes about The Rage, I'm glad we have the Cult of the Dragon coming back to mess with things, rather than have some kind of invasion of uber-dragons from another plane that are immune to the Rage because they use the Dragon Weave or something. I could have done without yet anouther RSE, and simply have the Cult working behind the scenes to try to take over a country, but it could be worse.
Of course, knowing WotC, it can always get worse. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2004 : 14:26:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
How about not?
How about we actually stick with the wealth that the Realms already offers before we try to fix something that doesn't need it?
Actually, I happen to agree with you, Bookwyrm.
The Realms, as a published setting, will be twenty years old in 2006. Now given that remarkable age (especially for a campaign setting), there is so much source material, and support information that has been published in many different formats that it is sometimes difficult for me to understand why we, as devotees of the Realms, are bombarded with so much new information.
When you consider this, it's such a shame that some of the more established aspects of the setting - such as the Cult of the Dragon as the Bookwyrm mentioned earlier - are overlooked in regards to newer material. Granted, it's often the newer material that "sells" the product to the average gamer, but the history of the Realms suffers as a consequence of this marketing process.
This reminds me of a discussion in the "General" section of the library, about good "dwarf" books. There are no stories within the library of FR novels. The same can be said of other demi-human races - like the gnomes and halflings - who have received very little in the way of attention in novels. It's not exactly the same circumstance I know, but it revolves around a similar problem... and that problem, is the "sales factor". It's what WotC know will make gamers go out and purchase their products.
So, while all of this is happening, the well established concepts (and races) are left to the imaginations of DMs (which, in itself isn't exactly a bad thing) to develop. For once, I would like to see WotC concentrate their FR design process on expanding upon material that has already some significant purchase within the setting, but has received little time in the spotlight, so to speak...
I'm sorry, perhaps that's all confusing... I'm tired, and am sorely in need of sleep...
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2004 : 14:31:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
Personally, whatever my other dislikes about The Rage, I'm glad we have the Cult of the Dragon coming back to mess with things, rather than have some kind of invasion of uber-dragons from another plane that are immune to the Rage because they use the Dragon Weave or something.
That's actually an excellent example of an FR author utilizing available resources rather than coming up with something new.
quote:
Of course, knowing WotC, it can always get worse.
Perhaps I'm just being naive, but I just don't get that sense from Richard Lee Byers' writing up to this point. I definitely think it will be an RSE, but I don't visualize him coming up with an ending that has a God return, a race lost coming back, etc.
I do see some character deaths. But, that Dorn guy has it coming with the way he's treating Kara. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2004 : 16:02:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
We've had enough returns, now let's have something new.
How about not?
How about we actually stick with the wealth that the Realms already offers before we try to fix something that doesn't need it?
I perhaps wasn't clear with what I meant... What I was saying is that we've had enough of these many returns, so now I'd like to see something else. A new idea, if you will, rather than "okay, what dead god or lost race are we going to bring back this time?"
I quite agree with what you and The Sage said. There have been a great many things that should have been expanded upon, but were dropped instead. Perhaps the most notable one to me is the Manshoon Wars. Right there was some great potential for years of fun, but the FRCS barely considered it an afterthought. Ditto for the Harper Schism...
That's part of the reason that I can accept the returns of Bane and Shade.
With Bane, if you look, you can see stuff that may or may not have been intended as groundwork for his return.
With Shade, they took a little throw-away bit in a years-old gaming product, and made it into a major plot. I should love to see them do more of that.
New ideas and new spins on old ideas, that's what I want. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2004 : 16:34:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
With Shade, they took a little throw-away bit in a years-old gaming product, and made it into a major plot. I should love to see them do more of that.
What bit was that? I've never heard of this before. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2004 : 16:55:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
What bit was that? I've never heard of this before.
If I recall correctly, didn't some of the Nethril material first mention the Shade? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2004 : 17:40:59
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Indeed! Page 87 of The Winds of Netheril, from the boxed set, in the entry on Shade:
quote:
Residents of Imbrue, who had kept a wary eye on the enclave since the establishment of their church to Tyche, noticed that the enclave was pulled into a misty, shadow-filled dimension at a time that roughly corresponded with the fall of the other enclaves. Their fate was never revealed.
So while the groundwork wasn't exactly laid for Shade's return, it was a tantalizing little tidbit that could be built upon. And, as we know, it was built upon, with interesting results.
Though, to be honest, I was a little disappointed with one aspect of Shade's return. When 2E was unleashed, we had the Avatar Crisis to explain all the changes. When I first read about the upcoming return of Shade, I figured they'd somehow tie the changes of 3E into that event. The fact that they ignored perhaps the best chance to explain most of the changes to magic and such was a let-down. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Sarelle
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
508 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2004 : 12:55:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
We've had enough returns, now let's have something new.
How about not?
How about we actually stick with the wealth that the Realms already offers before we try to fix something that doesn't need it?
...
That's part of the reason that I can accept the returns of Bane and Shade.
With Bane, if you look, you can see stuff that may or may not have been intended as groundwork for his return.
With Shade, they took a little throw-away bit in a years-old gaming product, and made it into a major plot. I should love to see them do more of that.
New ideas and new spins on old ideas, that's what I want.
This is part of my point too.
Ideal progressive FR, for me, would be
2 sixths Major-reference development (i.e. Cult of the Dragon),
3 sixths Minor- (sometimes tiny-)reference spin-off (i.e. Shade - because this is the best way for FR to be "new", and thus exciting, good for sales, and expandable by the author, whilst maintaining continuity)
1 sixth completely new stuff (and this would be split in half between small [2e norm] and big [3e norm] references - new stuff could just be a plot hook for 'Minor-reference spin-offs' to work from later). |
Chair of the The Rightful Return of Monster Deities to FR Society (RRMDFRS)
My character, drawn by Liodain: Sarelle / Sarelle (smaller) |
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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2004 : 17:39:20
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I like to believe the reason for all the ‘return from the dead’ is because the people in charge are or use to be fellow gamers. The reasons they are doing it is :
A) It is something they used in their own homebrewed campaigns and wish to share with the community
B) It is something they always wanted to do in their games but never did and wanted to turn it loose to the community.
C) It is the Marvel Theory (Not to be confused with the Marvel/DC Time Travel/Parallel Universes theory)
Of course we always come down to the bottom line in business, which is to make money so they can continue to be in business.
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I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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Reefy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
892 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2004 : 02:56:26
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| I can take most of the changes individually, but put together, the idea does seem to have been used rather a lot. The star elves and Orcus are the ones which irk me. As has been mentioned, the Realms is such a richly detailed setting, there ought to be plenty that can be written on existing subjects, groups, threats and the like. While I acknowledge things have to progress and evolve, progress for its own sake isn't necessarily a good thing. |
Life is either daring adventure or nothing. |
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Sir Elton
Acolyte
USA
19 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2004 : 04:43:42
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See!
This is precisely why I have my Realms right where I want them. The FRCS, Monsters of Faerun, Pool of Radiance II: Attack on Myth Drannor, Faiths and Pantheons, and the Silver Marches.
I don't need any more books to make my Realms more complicated than they already are. I have enough information to run campaigns in Shadowdale (2e Shadowdale from the 2e Realms boxed set), or the Silver Marches. I even have my version of Drizzt (a LG Githyanki who worships Mielikki, but I'm thinking of changing her over to Helm or to Hoar).
Besides, why have it all? Just focus on one region. |
Who needs me to have a sig? |
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the psychotic seaotter
Seeker
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2004 : 15:39:11
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True I have long decided having every thing Realms is a loosing task since you will possibly never get to use all the info. I tend to play mainly north of the Chionthar River. I know its a big area but alot of it remains undetailed or minorly detailed so you have a bit more to play with than other areas.
However I find that the trend of X evil returns and now Y race is a playable PC race is getting old. IMHO Bane should have stayed dead, sure Xvim could have ascended or something like that but not a Bane rezz.
I'm kinda divided over the Shade I have someting different going with them that I like a bit better but haven't really fleshed it out much.
It is nice to see Orcus back but I wish they would have given him more than just a listing in F&P.
The star elves are a bit much since I don't think we need another elven race running around there.
As to the rest I could take or leave. However I only use what I want so I can largely ignore most of it. However it does take up precious book space. |
Run run as fast as you can you can't catch me I'm the gingerbread man...
The Arcane Brotherhood, Wizards of the Sword Coast. |
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Does anything stay dead in the 3ed FR?
