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nbnmare
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
205 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Jun 2004 : 13:20:22
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I'm planning to write a fanfic which centres on a huge war which breaks out on along the southern Sword Coast. Amn, Tethyr, Baldur's Gate, etc (along with, amongst others, the Shadow Thieves, Cowled Wizards, Knights of the Shield, and the Cyricists of the Mountain of Skulls & Dark Redoubt) will be forced to work together in the face of two deadly alliances.
The Knights of the Black Gauntlet, the Loviatans of the Black Spires of the Maiden, a bunch of Malarites, and the Banite Zhents are one foe, with the Sythillisan Empire, the Twin Towers Cyricists and the Cyricist Zhents being the other. Naturally the two evil groups hate each other just as much as they hate the kingdoms of the Sword Coast. Other groups and individuals, including Balagos, the Harpers, and the Twisted Rune, will all have a hand in things too.
Obviously I'll need to do a lot of research before I even think of beginning to write this, but unfortunately nearly all my resources are 2nd Edition. I've read through Lands of Intrigue, Empires of the Shining Sea, Cloak & Dagger, etc, but when it comes to certain events that occured after these books were published I'm almost completely clueless ;).
Therefore, I have a few questions:
1) Have the Sythillisians been resting on their laurels since seizing Murann, or have they since attacked elsewhere?
2) I've heard that the Knights of the Black Gauntlet were once part of a larger group, with other members serving Bhaal and Myrkul. Is this true, and if so where can I find more info? Oh, and did Bane's return have much of an impact on the group?
4) I know that the Baldur's Gate games aren't considered canon, but the novels apparently are, so... did the novelization of Throne of Bhaal include the destruction of Saradush from the game? Or was it reduced to "heavily damaged" or something?
5) Are Lord Ketlaar Argrim (of Athkatla) and Watchful Skull Tynnos
Argrim (of the Mountain of Skulls) related? If so, how well do they get on?
6) Have there been any recent developments in Pehllus Tanislove's plot to become king of Amn?
Also, a couple of unrelated questions:
7) The head of the church of Milil, the Patriarch of Song, is said to be probably the best harpist in Aber-Toril, he can enthrall intelligent beings with his music, he seems to be immortal, etc. Sounds very much like he's a Chosen of Milil to me! Are there any other characters like this, i.e. people who could well be Chosen even though it doesn't specifically say they are?
8) I'm looking for the stats for the Company of the Dreaming Dragon (from Crypt of the Shadowking and Curse of the Shadowmage). Preferably 2E, but I'll take 3E if that's all that's available ;).
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1707 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2004 : 18:22:55
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First of all, sounds like you've got some very interesting ideas at the get-go. Good luck on this; I'd be interested in looking at it, as would most folks on this forum, I'd bet....
Also, bear in mind that these are just ideas, suggestions, or what I would do if I were writing an update; my comments have no official weight whatsoever any longer (and that's somewhat of a relief).
quote:
Originally posted by nbnmare
1) Have the Sythillisians been resting on their laurels since seizing Murann, or have they since attacked elsewhere?
Well, with Amn hiring mercenaries and assassins to harrass the Sythillisians and try and get key players out of Murann, the monsters are hardly resting on their laurels. It's also tough enough just keeping such variant races together and on a common cause.
I'd venture they may have made some forays out to the Nelanther Islands and perhaps have conscripted/taken over some of the nonhuman pirate groups that I'd neglected in LOI. After all, if you can bring some pirates into your own forces, you've now got sea power, a place to which they can flee if Amn gets its act together, and they don't have to pay the human pirates to blockade Murann's port. In fact, with some time and thought, I'd probably overhaul the pirates' power structure quite significantly, as the Sythilisians could far better defend an island or three rather than the chunk of land they now hold...
Still, from all outside appearances, it looks like they're consolidating their positions and hunkering down for the long haul of keeping Murann and that chunk of the Trade Road. They're probably divvying up the lands taken to separate the monstrous races a little and allow them each their own territory within the Sythillisian Lands (i.e giants holding the moutain passes, goblins in the eastern lowlands, etc.).
There are even some rumors that the ogre-magi are talking with Lord Hhune of Tethyr and Lady Haresdown about normalizing relations with Tethyr and creating a permanent state ruled by the ogres. Of course, that is all top secret and known only to the Queen's COuncil (and the Knights of the Shield that Hhune leads).
quote:
2) I've heard that the Knights of the Black Gauntlet were once part of a larger group, with other members serving Bhaal and Myrkul. Is this true, and if so where can I find more info? Oh, and did Bane's return have much of an impact on the group?
These are the guys who conquered Kzelter, right? (If I'm having a brain fart, then ignore the attached comment.) I'd say they all tipped solidly to the side of Bane, as per comments in Lords of Darkness, and they're now the anchor for the Zhentarim in the south as well.
quote:
4) I know that the Baldur's Gate games aren't considered canon, but the novels apparently are, so... did the novelization of Throne of Bhaal include the destruction of Saradush from the game? Or was it reduced to "heavily damaged" or something?
If you feel it necessary to acknowledge the activities from the game/novel at all, then leave it as "some areas of the city were damaged, but not to the extent overeager and exaggerated bards would have you believe."
Frankly, while FR novels are canonical, any ties to computer games render even their novels noncanonical until such time as the details can be reconciled and/or mentioned in game or other novel products. At least that's how we dealt with it. And even then, there can be disagreement until Ed chimes in. (After all, if you ask me, there's no elf-queen in the Wealdath, but I think WotC ended up shoe-horning her in for the 3E FRCS.)
quote:
5) Are Lord Ketlaar Argrim (of Athkatla) and Watchful Skull Tynnos
Argrim (of the Mountain of Skulls) related? If so, how well do they get on?
Yes they are related but are most likely distant cousins. One of the things that may or may not have been well hinted at with Tethyr is the penchant for large families. The land has, even with political unrest, always been bountiful for farms and whatnot. Thus, many families have five or more children--all the better to do the farm work or help defend it in times of trouble. While inheritance rules are not hard-set, many families practice primogeniture, leaving the property to the eldest child, and the youngers have to make their own ways in the world. This leads to widespread travel for a family's name and many, many cousins and distant relatives of whom a person might not ever conceivably know of their existence.
Lord Argrim may be aware of Tynnos, simply because of his position or an especial hatred of Cyricists, while the Watchful Skull would definitely know of his cousin as one cannot worship a god of corruptions and evil without knowing the local players you hope to subvert to your will. There's no love lost between them, even though they share a name.
For that matter, the Tanisloves, the Raslemtars, and at least a half-dozen other families number in the hundreds if not thousands across Amn and Tethyr. It's not so generic as Smith, but more likely to correlate to families like Johnson or Washington.
Clear as mud? Thought so. 
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6) Have there been any recent developments in Pehllus Tanislove's plot to become king of Amn?
Not that I'm aware of; that ball's been tossed to Eric Boyd, who's bounced it around some in CLOAK & DAGGER and since then, I think. Best to ask him.
If I have to answer, I'd say he's still being very careful and cautious to not lose any face or political power among the rulers of Amn, so if he's moving on any plans, it's very, very quiet and careful and most likely could take a few more years to develop.
Steven Schend
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For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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nbnmare
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
205 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2004 : 23:09:07
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Thanks for the quick reply!
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
I'd venture they may have made some forays out to the Nelanther Islands and perhaps have conscripted/taken over some of the nonhuman pirate groups that I'd neglected in LOI. After all, if you can bring some pirates into your own forces, you've now got sea power, a place to which they can flee if Amn gets its act together, and they don't have to pay the human pirates to blockade Murann's port. In fact, with some time and thought, I'd probably overhaul the pirates' power structure quite significantly, as the Sythilisians could far better defend an island or three rather than the chunk of land they now hold...
I hadn't actually given the Nelanther isles much thought, but now you mention it they do pose some interesting possibilities. Skaug would probably make quite an good target for the Sythillisians and their allies, as it would allow them to launch a two-pronged sea attack on Velen.
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Still, from all outside appearances, it looks like they're consolidating their positions and hunkering down for the long haul of keeping Murann and that chunk of the Trade Road. They're probably divvying up the lands taken to separate the monstrous races a little and allow them each their own territory within the Sythillisian Lands (i.e giants holding the moutain passes, goblins in the eastern lowlands, etc.).
Excellent, I'll be sure to (try to) work all that in  . It seems to me the Sythillisians would be looking to gain new recruits too, and I'm sure there are several monstrous tribes in the region who'd be more than willing to join up, after having just witnessed the Sythillisians seize two towns and destroy three others. Bugbears in particular seem a natural choice, since the empire already has goblins and hobgoblins in its ranks.
quote:
There are even some rumors that the ogre-magi are talking with Lord Hhune of Tethyr and Lady Haresdown about normalizing relations with Tethyr and creating a permanent state ruled by the ogres. Of course, that is all top secret and known only to the Queen's COuncil (and the Knights of the Shield that Hhune leads).
I was thinking of having the Shield Council up to some nefarious scheme while the rest of the Knights appear to be aiding Amn, Tethyr & co., so this just confirms that it would be quite a good idea . If the scheme you suggested were to come to fruition, I'm sure Hhune would probably want to undermine the tie between the Sythillisians and the Smallteeth Cyricists, since Cyric is an enemy of Gargauth.
quote:
These are the guys who conquered Kzelter, right? (If I'm having a brain fart, then ignore the attached comment.) I'd say they all tipped solidly to the side of Bane, as per comments in Lords of Darkness, and they're now the anchor for the Zhentarim in the south as well.
From what I've been able to gather from numerous sources (LOI, Faiths & Avatars, Empires of the Shining Sea, Lords of Darkness and a couple of web articles), the Knights of the Black Gauntlet always believed they were devout followers of Bane even while he was dead, though their priests were actually granted by Xvim without them realising.
I was just wondering if the return of Bane (which they no doubt believe was merely him revealing his still-living status to the rest of the world rather than an actual resurrection) perhaps prompted them into sudden action. At the very least, I expect they held a pretty huge celebration  .
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If you feel it necessary to acknowledge the activities from the game/novel at all, then leave it as "some areas of the city were damaged, but not to the extent overeager and exaggerated bards would have you believe."
Well, I was planning to have a few of the surviving Fire Giants who were attacking the city join with the Banites, since having evil giants on two different sides could make for some interesting battles to say the least.
The real reason I wanted to tie it in because it would provide a convenient excuse for how the Knights are able to proceed far in a relatively short amount of time. Once they'd defeated the forces at Ithal Pass, Saradush would offer little resistance if it were still recovering from a previous siege. From there, they could march unimpeded all the way to Riatavin or Trailstone.
In fact, I'll probably have the Knights first clash with the Sythillisians halfway between Brost and Trailstone, after the two towns have been captured by each side. I'm sure the elves of the Wealdath may have something to say about that though...
quote:
Frankly, while FR novels are canonical, any ties to computer games render even their novels noncanonical until such time as the details can be reconciled and/or mentioned in game or other novel products. At least that's how we dealt with it. And even then, there can be disagreement until Ed chimes in. (After all, if you ask me, there's no elf-queen in the Wealdath, but I think WotC ended up shoe-horning her in for the 3E FRCS.)
I was going by the fact that the novels are mentioned on Wizards' official FR timeline, even though it's somewhat off (the timeline says BG2 takes place in 1369, but there are towncriers in the game who eventually mention the invasion of Imnescar).
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Yes they are related but are most likely distant cousins. One of the things that may or may not have been well hinted at with Tethyr is the penchant for large families.
I thought so . As you (obviously) know, LoI mentions several other Argrims (a priest of Waukeen and another of Llira, I believe), but Tynnos was the only one for whim it didn't say how he was related to the Athkatlan branch of the family, and I was curious .
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Lord Argrim may be aware of Tynnos, simply because of his position or an especial hatred of Cyricists, while the Watchful Skull would definitely know of his cousin as one cannot worship a god of corruptions and evil without knowing the local players you hope to subvert to your will. There's no love lost between them, even though they share a name.
Though judging by his CE alignment, it seems Lord Argrim isn't a particularly nice guy either...
quote:
For that matter, the Tanisloves, the Raslemtars, and at least a half-dozen other families number in the hundreds if not thousands across Amn and Tethyr. It's not so generic as Smith, but more likely to correlate to families like Johnson or Washington.
Having the last name Baker, I can quite understand that .
quote:
Not that I'm aware of; that ball's been tossed to Eric Boyd, who's bounced it around some in CLOAK & DAGGER and since then, I think. Best to ask him.
Will do .
quote:
If I have to answer, I'd say he's still being very careful and cautious to not lose any face or political power among the rulers of Amn, so if he's moving on any plans, it's very, very quiet and careful and most likely could take a few more years to develop.
No doubt the "nefarious scheme" the Shield Council has going on in my 'fic will at least partially revolve around them trying to make use of the situation to place Pehllus on the throne with the help of various noble families, as mentioned in Cloak & Dagger - though the arrival of the Knights of the Black Gauntlet on the scene will complicate things a bit.
Anyway, thanks again for taking the time to answer . Your words of wisdom resolved some of my queries, generated a few extra ideas, and opened up a few brand new conundrums. However, if it isn't too much extra trouble, it looks like my question 3) somehow got missed off the list, so here it is now:
3) Did Tessarch Phaan Colwyvv ever manage to escape Murann, or was he captured and/or killed? Or did he perhaps even turn traitor? |
Edited by - nbnmare on 14 Jun 2004 00:02:44 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2004 : 00:29:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
If you feel it necessary to acknowledge the activities from the game/novel at all, then leave it as "some areas of the city were damaged, but not to the extent overeager and exaggerated bards would have you believe."
Frankly, while FR novels are canonical, any ties to computer games render even their novels noncanonical until such time as the details can be reconciled and/or mentioned in game or other novel products. At least that's how we dealt with it. And even then, there can be disagreement until Ed chimes in. (After all, if you ask me, there's no elf-queen in the Wealdath, but I think WotC ended up shoe-horning her in for the 3E FRCS.)
Steven Schend
I'm not usually one to argue with a game designer, past or present, but I have to point out to Steven that the four of the characters from the BG novels were stat'd up in Dragon for 2e.
Yes many don't believe that stat's in Dragon are considered official, but why I have no idea. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2004 : 03:54:48
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Dragon magazine articles aren't 'canon' or official either with respect to FR.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2004 : 04:17:32
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Dragon magazine articles aren't 'canon' or official either with respect to FR.
-- George Krashos
Sorry I don't agree. All material from Dragon and Dungeon has always been offical canon material for FR and even now in 3e it says 100% Official Canon material. WOTC gives thier okay on all articles printed in both Dungeon and Dragon.
This has been said on record by all editors from both WOTC when they owned Dragon/Dungeon as well as by the guys who run it at Paizo. And even on the WOTC boards, where we can not discuss novels, they now decided that as long as it is in a official canon sourcebook, which includes Dragon/Dungeon, we can discuss the characters from those novels if they were stat'd in Dragon.
Wizo Bigsister posted: "This thread is actually ok. It is focussed on a character not on a book or series of books; and this character appears in other sources besides novels. (Dragon magazine is considered a "canon" or valid source.) Its fine so long as you don't get into criticism of how the writers portrayed this character, or the books he appears in."
So that means to me that WOTC considers Dragon and Dungeon offical canon material otherwise the mods would have been told to close all novel character threads unless those novels had characters stat'd in Dragon.
So you trying to tell me that Ed's articles in Dragon are not canon? How about the stuff they cut from the sourcebooks and put in Dragon all those years ago by Steven, Ed, and many other FR designers? Hogwash.
Sorry George but I don't buy that, but this is highjacking this thread. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 14 Jun 2004 04:27:39 |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2004 : 04:29:50
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
This has been said on record by all editors from both WOTC when they owned Dragon/Dungeon as well as by the guys who run it at Paizo. And even on the WOTC boards where we can not discuss novels, they now decided that as long as it is in a official canon sourcebook, which includes Dragon/Dungeon, we can discuss the characters from those novels if they were stat'd in Dragon.
Wizo Bigsister posted: "This thread is actually ok. It is focussed on a character not on a book or series of books; and this character appears in other sources besides novels. (Dragon magazine is considered a "canon" or valid source.) Its fine so long as you don't get into criticism of how the writers portrayed this character, or the books he appears in."
Well, I never thought I'd live to see the day someone posted something from Wizo Bigsister as a positive example in support of their argument. <Sirius looks out windows> Are those bovines I see flying?
You can discuss novel characters that have stats in Dragon? <Shudder> I'd hate to be a newbie to the Realms and not know who I could or could not talk about then. I hope someone has a master list of such characters that fall into this category.
And to slant this back on topic, have any of the characters from the novel War in Tethyr appeared in Dragon? |
Edited by - SiriusBlack on 14 Jun 2004 04:58:10 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2004 : 05:15:00
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
Well, I never thought I'd live to see the day someone posted something from Wizo Bigsister as a positive example in support of their argument. <Sirius looks out windows> Are those bovines I see flying?
You can discuss novel characters that have stats in Dragon? <Shudder> I'd hate to be a newbie to the Realms and not know who I could or could not talk about then. I hope someone has a master list of such characters that fall into this category.
And to slant this back on topic, have any of the characters from the novel War in Tethyr appeared in Dragon?
They weren't really needed to be written up in Dragon because they were written up in Heroes Lorebook.
Better watch for those bovines though! They might crash through your window! :)  |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 14 Jun 2004 05:15:43 |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2004 : 05:34:30
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
They weren't really needed to be written up in Dragon because they were written up in Heroes Lorebook.
Yes, but those are 2nd edition and well all know that without prestige classes such write ups are clearly worthless. I take it the cast of characters from the novel never got a 3rd edition update in Dragon?
quote:
Better watch for those bovines though! They might crash through your window! :)
Strange, they all seemed to have some tome strapped to their backs...E...B...E....R....I can't make out the rest. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2004 : 05:41:34
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
Yes, but those are 2nd edition and well all know that without prestige classes such write ups are clearly worthless. I take it the cast of characters from the novel never got a 3rd edition update in Dragon?
Strange, they all seemed to have some tome strapped to their backs...E...B...E....R....I can't make out the rest.
Well Zaranda is a 7th level fighter/6th level wizard in the FRCS, page 158. Lhaeo/Haedrak is a 2nd level fighter/6th level wizard, same page.
HAHAAH better watch it! It's WOTC trying to subliminally force you to buy that thing that must not be named, by using flying cows, that have that thing that must not be named strapped to thier backs! |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 14 Jun 2004 05:42:54 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2004 : 16:23:17
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| George -- isn't it more the case that Dragon articles are canonical, at least provisionally, but more likely to be contradicted later than a sourcebook or novel reference? Those references are also not immune to contradiction, so it's a matter of degree, and the articles are not cast-iron-invulnerable canon but neither are they not-canonical-at-all? (Otherwise they're less canonical than we know from Ed that his Realmslore postings are!) |
Edited by - Faraer on 14 Jun 2004 16:24:16 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2004 : 16:58:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
George -- isn't it more the case that Dragon articles are canonical, at least provisionally, but more likely to be contradicted later than a sourcebook or novel reference? Those references are also not immune to contradiction, so it's a matter of degree, and the articles are not cast-iron-invulnerable canon but neither are they not-canonical-at-all? (Otherwise they're less canonical than we know from Ed that his Realmslore postings are!)
Are we now arguing degrees of canonity? Sure, the magazine articles can be more easily contradicted, but WotC hasn't had a problem with casually contradicting years of published Realmslore, regardless of the original source. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2004 : 17:42:57
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| That's what I said. The degrees aren't formal, and we don't have to argue them, but we know they're there: information from a source that's obscure or not well looked upon is more vulnerable than the name of the Forest-Kingdom, no? |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2004 : 17:47:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Are we now arguing degrees of canonity?
If the thread has taken such a turn, it has remained much more civil than other discussions I've seen on this topic. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2004 : 18:07:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
That's what I said. The degrees aren't formal, and we don't have to argue them, but we know they're there: information from a source that's obscure or not well looked upon is more vulnerable than the name of the Forest-Kingdom, no?
True, but I'd hardly call Dragon obscure or not well looked upon... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2004 : 18:49:57
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| *This month's* Dragon isn't obscure, but back issues are hard to reference and easily overlooked on a tight writing schedule, just as buried novel references are easy to miss. And apart from whatever inside knowledge George has about the policy, a couple of articles have clearly been recently disregarded: Robert Sullivan's "Imaskarcana: Faces of Magic" in Dragon #281 and Eric Boyd's "Llurth Dreier: City of Ooze" in Polyhedron #140. |
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Sarelle
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
508 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2004 : 19:23:39
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About Saradush, nbnmare.
I'd always assumed Throne of Bhaal, having not been listed in the FR timeline like Shadows of Amn, hadn't actually occurred yet (despite being canon - I know, that gives me a mild headache too).
It is just that - as many of the 'BG isn't canon' folk say - the events therein are very... explosive! And include, the destruction (or near to) of Saradush, a huge Bhaalspawn war across the east coast, and eventually a risen deity. So whilst it is undeniably canon (IMO - it is just that, for one thing, as a published novel it seems very unfair on the author to say it isn't), you don't necessarily have to incorporate its events.
On the other hand, if you want to include those fire giants, follow Mr. Schend's sound advice. |
Chair of the The Rightful Return of Monster Deities to FR Society (RRMDFRS)
My character, drawn by Liodain: Sarelle / Sarelle (smaller) |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2004 : 19:48:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Sarelle
It is just that - as many of the 'BG isn't canon' folk say - the events therein are very... explosive! And include, the destruction (or near to) of Saradush, a huge Bhaalspawn war across the east coast, and eventually a risen deity. So whilst it is undeniably canon (IMO - it is just that, for one thing, as a published novel it seems very unfair on the author to say it isn't), you don't necessarily have to incorporate its events.
But blowing up Evereska, Tilverton, and melting the High Ice making many of the lands get flooded or have strange weather isn't explosive? Or having the drow invade Evermeet, etc.
Come now, there are a lot of FR novels that are just as explosive....
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For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 14 Jun 2004 19:50:00 |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2004 : 20:53:11
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
But blowing up Evereska, Tilverton, and melting the High Ice making many of the lands get flooded or have strange weather isn't explosive?
Speaking of that series, has there ever been any mention on how Amn or Tethyr feel regarding the Return of the Shade? |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2004 : 21:04:16
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
Speaking of that series, has there ever been any mention on how Amn or Tethyr feel regarding the Return of the Shade?
Hmm, I can't recall any in the novels nor in the Player's Guide.... So my answer would be no there is no mention..... |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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nbnmare
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
205 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2004 : 21:10:09
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Given the typical Amnish dislike of magic, I'd say they wouldn't be too thrilled about it.
It'd be interesting to know how the Night Parade feel about the return of Shade, since they're also descendants of the Netheril who escaped to another plane (though in their case the demiplane of Nightmare rather than Shadow).
It'd also be nice to know what the relationship is like between Shade and the Malaugrym, since they're both residents of the demiplane of Shadow who're descended from Faerunian mages. |
Edited by - nbnmare on 14 Jun 2004 23:26:05 |
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Sarta
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2004 : 23:14:17
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Regardless of whether or not it has been mentioned in source materials or not, it is a safe bet that every country in Faerun has got to be scared to death of the return of Shade. The legacy of the wonders and power of the Netheril empire are known to all, even if few details remain.
No nation feels safe when a new power shows up on the map. Especially when that power is known to be superior in magical force and agressive, both of which have already been displayed.
Some might be hoping to capitalize on the short-term gain that they will receive as buffer nations are busy dealing with Shade, but in the back of their mind will remain the fear that they will one day be in the same spot as well.
Sarta |
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nbnmare
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
205 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2004 : 00:41:33
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Back on-topic, I've finished compiling a timeline of relevant events (mostly from LoI and C&D), and have started adding some of my own. Some samples (work-in-progress of course ):
5th of Eleint 1370: Fire giants are spotted exiting the forest of Mir a few miles north of Ithal Pass. At first the generals at the pass are worried that the forces at Kzelter have allied themselves with the giants, but the group begin heading north rather than south. Runners are dispatched to Saradush to warn them of the approaching threat.
6th of Eleint 1370: The giants begin attacking local farms and villages. Within a week, there are no buildings left standing between Ithal Pass and Saradush. Most inhabitants survive however, having fled at the mere sight of a hoarde of approaching giants. The majority head towards Saradush and Borakmordin, though a few of the more foolhardy villagers risk venturing into the forest of Mir. The forces at Ithal Pass are outraged by the destruction but dare not intervene, knowing the Banites would swiftly take advantage of any reduction in troops.
1st of Nightal 1370: Clerics of Shar take advantage of the chaotic situation in Murann and launch a furious attack on Moonmaiden's Hall. Only the head of the temple, Lunar Crister Flechan (who was away recruiting members for a resistance movement) survives the slaughter.
10th of Mirtal 1372: In Murann, members of the resistance movement (including Captain Ordl "Starpoon" Fiathrnseveral, Lunar Crister Flechan, Shadowmaster Arialle Systone and several of her thieves) manage to locate Phaan Telwyvvy, who is being held prisoner by a group of hobgoblins led by a particularly nasty bugbear shaman. By making use of the city sewer system, they almost manage to escape Murann without incident.
As they near the surface, however, their exit is blocked by a group of Cyricists, led by Blackwill Haarken Akhmelere himself! Phaan's rescuers manage to defeat the evil priests, though Akhmelere teleports away, vowing vengeance. As the group exits the sewers, Pommarch Tyrda Q'Helvor and several Cowled Wizards appear before them in a flash of magical light. Tyrda hurriedly thank the heroes for their assistance, wish them and the other members of the resistance luck, and teleport away with Phaan. |
Edited by - nbnmare on 15 Jun 2004 00:52:54 |
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Sarelle
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
508 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2004 : 22:08:49
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| Seeing as you obviously have a lot of FR knowledge, and now a flare for timelines - maybe you could join our timeline project? |
Chair of the The Rightful Return of Monster Deities to FR Society (RRMDFRS)
My character, drawn by Liodain: Sarelle / Sarelle (smaller) |
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nbnmare
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
205 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2004 : 13:01:06
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That sounds quite an intriguing project. If I have any ideas for events in the "modern day" realms I may volunteer, but at the moment everything I'm coming up with is in 1370 or 1371 ;).
EDIT: Hmm, I just noticed that 5 of the highest ranking Shadow Thieves (Suldax Tampcoin, Kerindra Lynnrenno and 3 unnamed Shades) seem to have disappeared in Lords of Darkness, and two more (Darlan Mortem and Nurlara Haphet) have been added. Are there any source books and/or novels between Cloak & Dagger and Lords of Darkness that explain this?
If not I'll probably attempt to do so myself. For example, Suldax could have been taken prisoner by the rebels in Riatavin, and the unnamed Frontier's Sect, Sea's Sect and Sword's Sect Shades may have been either killed by or joined with the Sythillisians. Or maybe Darlan and Kerindra were two of the unnamed Shades, and they've been reassigned due to the crisis in southern Amn. |
Edited by - nbnmare on 18 Jun 2004 13:30:04 |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2004 : 13:46:49
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quote:
Originally posted by nbnmare
EDIT: Hmm, I just noticed that 5 of the highest ranking Shadow Thieves (Suldax Tampcoin, Kerindra Lynnrenno and 3 unnamed Shades) seem to have disappeared in Lords of Darkness, and two more (Darlan Mortem and Nurlara Haphet) have been added. Are there any source books and/or novels between Cloak & Dagger and Lords of Darkness that explain this?
Nice find. Nothing is coming to mind right now on a tome that detailed this change. I'll be eager to see if anyone else knows of a source explaining this change. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2018 : 19:30:52
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Great Reader Kuje,
Was this ever resolved, or did it get transferred to another thread?
I'm quite interested in this. I thought this was about to go full Bloodsport up in this place!
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Dragon magazine articles aren't 'canon' or official either with respect to FR.
-- George Krashos
Sorry I don't agree. All material from Dragon and Dungeon has always been offical canon material for FR and even now in 3e it says 100% Official Canon material. WOTC gives thier okay on all articles printed in both Dungeon and Dragon.
This has been said on record by all editors from both WOTC when they owned Dragon/Dungeon as well as by the guys who run it at Paizo. And even on the WOTC boards, where we can not discuss novels, they now decided that as long as it is in a official canon sourcebook, which includes Dragon/Dungeon, we can discuss the characters from those novels if they were stat'd in Dragon.
Wizo Bigsister posted: "This thread is actually ok. It is focussed on a character not on a book or series of books; and this character appears in other sources besides novels. (Dragon magazine is considered a "canon" or valid source.) Its fine so long as you don't get into criticism of how the writers portrayed this character, or the books he appears in."
So that means to me that WOTC considers Dragon and Dungeon offical canon material otherwise the mods would have been told to close all novel character threads unless those novels had characters stat'd in Dragon.
So you trying to tell me that Ed's articles in Dragon are not canon? How about the stuff they cut from the sourcebooks and put in Dragon all those years ago by Steven, Ed, and many other FR designers? Hogwash.
Sorry George but I don't buy that, but this is highjacking this thread. :)
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2018 : 19:31:48
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Master Rupert,
Do you know if this was ever decided. I could be wrong, but I could have sworn someone told me in the last week that certain things were not canon source, such as Dragon and Dungeon magazines.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
George -- isn't it more the case that Dragon articles are canonical, at least provisionally, but more likely to be contradicted later than a sourcebook or novel reference? Those references are also not immune to contradiction, so it's a matter of degree, and the articles are not cast-iron-invulnerable canon but neither are they not-canonical-at-all? (Otherwise they're less canonical than we know from Ed that his Realmslore postings are!)
Are we now arguing degrees of canonity? Sure, the magazine articles can be more easily contradicted, but WotC hasn't had a problem with casually contradicting years of published Realmslore, regardless of the original source.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2018 : 00:09:20
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| Dragon and Dungeon both used to be canon. I've no idea if the Dragon+ thing is considered canon or not; the inability to easily download content has meant I don't bother with it, and WotC hasn't really cared about canon that much since 3E, anyway. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2018 : 00:14:43
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Master Rupert,
I'm curious, with the massive amount of experience you have overall, what ultimately led to them being canon, no longer being canon, etc.? It seems very chaotic. Was it just the issue of ease of access?
That really interests me a lot as well.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Dragon and Dungeon both used to be canon. I've no idea if the Dragon+ thing is considered canon or not; the inability to easily download content has meant I don't bother with it, and WotC hasn't really cared about canon that much since 3E, anyway.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2018 : 01:24:32
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quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Master Rupert,
I'm curious, with the massive amount of experience you have overall, what ultimately led to them being canon, no longer being canon, etc.? It seems very chaotic. Was it just the issue of ease of access?
That really interests me a lot as well.
They were canon because TSR/WotC published them and said they were canon.
Dragon+ is a newer thing, though, and I don't know if it's been ruled canon or not. I assume that it is, but since I can't download articles as Word files or pdfs, I'm not bothering to read them. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Topic |
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Questions regarding Amn and Tethyr
