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DoveArrow
Seeker
97 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Jun 2023 : 22:32:50
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quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red
Though that is my point. In roughly 2,000 years there has not been any improvements... It's like saying some one living in 2023 Atalanta is living just like someone in Bethlehem in 20 AD.
I would say that is not a fair comparison. It's fairer to compare life in Bethlehem in 20 AD to life in Bethlehem around 1870 AD. During that 1,850 year timespan, not much changed technologically. Even then, it wasn't until 1948 AD when the region started becoming industrialized.
Also, as I mentioned before, the kind of technological progress you're talking about didn't really take off until roughly 275 years ago anywhere in the world. Before then, life was not much different technologically than it had been for people living 2,000 or even 4,000 years prior.
So yeah. It's not a major stretch of the imagination to assume that in 2,000 years, technology hasn't advanced all that much in Faerun. This is particularly true when you consider that the rules of magic, the Faerunian equivalent of technology, keep changing at the whims of Mystra. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2390 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2023 : 13:28:38
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quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red
Well...the flying cities were magic. So were the netherpelters.
So? They were produced.
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The modern realms have guns. Plenty of fast boats and ships. Plumbing. Large scale irrigation. And plenty of Spelljammers(though again, these are magic).
Yes. On the latter, most are behind, but there are exceptions: Shou Lung, Wa, Thay. In that they build ships that are not just sea vessels with a helm slapped on, as well as their own power sources.
Probably better than Netherese, too. I mean, per lore some widespread Spelljammer craft are pretty much remakes of old trophies (squid, various fish ships). We don't know Netheril designs, but this in itself suggests these were not good enough to stick around. Which makes sense after their bad start: did not get to a spacefaring "golden age", and those who kept exploring presumably switched to ships not advertising them as the Netherese.
quote:
Once the sun goes down, use torches or candles for a bit...but mostly go right to sleep.
The above describes the Folk of Netheril in -400 DR or Folk in Shadowdale in 1500DR.
quote:
It's like saying some one living in 2023 Atalanta is living just like someone in Bethlehem in 20 AD.
And it's visibly at risk of becoming "Bethlehem 20 AD" again in another decades or three. I mean, read this. Note where this happens, and who can only complain about it. Consider.
Or, back to *D&D, or at least OSR:
quote:
Kevin Crawford wrote
Before the Roman collapse in Britain around 410, the island had bankers, public baths, factories, and elaborate public infrastructure. In the England of 810, they were working hard on unlocking the "towns" tech, and largely failing. No one intentionally went around destroying technical know-how, but the ensuing 400 years had left people so much concerned with other, more immediate problems that the skills and industrial infrastructure of Rome had atrophied into near-nothingness.
Now transpose this to a situation in which Rome did not slowly recede from the provinces over a century or two, but simply stopped one morning. [...] Modern high-tech life is the infinitely narrow tip of a giant iceberg of trade, production, social compacts, skilled personnel, and in very partial part of simple technical data. Erase everything below the waterline, and you have to recreate it before you can have your disposable electronics and internet again
- from explantation of the recent history in Stars Without Number setting
For what's left of old civilizations on Faerun, even rebuilding is not an option. One major branch of dependencies is not just lost, but dead. It's simply impossible to recreate capabilities of Netheril or Imaskar in full. While the elven remnants managed to save much more knowledge, they were still crippled and nearly finished off by this (they were already in decline, but could at least compensate for their weak sides with strength in another area).
Worse, for mass motivation purpose their choices are to strive for Golden Age that is no longer possible (though Halruaa has some impressive results) or coping via "indoor plumbing is Going Too Far".
quote:
Again, I'm taking about technology. And that is "tech" as in all mundane crafts.
So, yes, someone in Imaskar 5000 years ago invited the mundane technology of "sharp metal". And the Realms of 1500DR still uses it.
People use whatever they can get a hold on.
Magic is a major part of the system, and while it may be not affecting everyday affairs of an average peasant, but even well-off taverns use glowglobes, and from some point on the scale of importance it's impossible to ignore.
You can carve the whole however you like, but the question of "oops, where these tracks go?" on the boundaries you paint is relevant for your map, not the system as it is.
Likewise, someone might complain about how uses of steam power in our world sank into narrow niches, and deflect obvious objections with "but that's all electrical" - it's true, but not very meaningful.
Most of Faerun was either a frontier colonized by barbaric humans long after the era of Old Empires (Cormyr, North), or recovers from the "Dark Ages" of various recent disasters (including hostile action by goblinoids, phaerimm and elves... and then there's Dracorage).
Many nascent civilizations faltered after running into troubles (Impiltur) or became decadent (Calimshan). Those that avoid it are visibly pulled, pushed and/or slapped along by various divine hands. I mean, not only Lantan is obviously Gond's playground, but Waukeen shaped Amn and Ravens Bluff, without Mystra's influence Silver Marches would not be the same if at all existed, etc. Thay was more culled than encouraged, but it emerged via secession and was kept from complacency by puppetry of Szass Tam and memory of the threat; both advances and self-defeating trend are there for observable historical reasons. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
Edited by - TBeholder on 16 Jun 2023 13:50:42 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2023 : 19:22:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
You guys know what a bombard is, right? I don't think many ships will be carrying bombards.
https://historycollection.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/The-Bombard-Cannon.jpg
There's the EARTH bombard and there's the SPELLJAMMER bombard. The spelljammer bombard was essentially "interchangeable" with "cannon". They were noted as being ship mountable but placed in position. They could be remounted in an entirely different position of the ship in 1d4 turns. Now the spelljammer bombard was specifically noted as using smokepowder. It is noted that not as many ships carry them, but its noted that this is because smokepowder is dangerous in the phlogiston AND because smokepowder "works in some spheres, is unreliable in others, and might be something like jewelry polish in others".
The ORIGINAL Thayan bombards meanwhile were monstrous earthbound emplacements dug out of hills. I imagine the LIGHT BOMBARDS which are mentioned for the Red scourge would resemble what you just showed, but it should be noted as I just realized after rereading, the Thayan ones still use bombard oil, and their shot was basically hollow stone balls that you'd fill with the bombard oil. So, with Thayan bombards, conceivable a decent amount of the damage may have been fire damage as the shot broke apart and spread something like jet fuel or greek fire onto its target.
I'd imagine that the "light bombards" for the Thayans probably were more mortar like... more like some of the runty things shown here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombard_(weapon)#/media/File:Bombard-MortarOfTheKnightsOfSaintJohnOfJerusalemRhodes1480-1500.jpg
(sorry, tried to use the URL thing, but it kept stripping characters, so you'll have to copy paste that link).
It should also be noted that different parts of the world DID use the other kind of bombards. For instance, the spelljammer TSUNAMI by the people of Wa had a standard armament of 6 "spelljammer" bombards.
To add to confusion surrounding all of this.... the 1e/2e transition product Forgotten Realms Adventures said this...
Bombard: The largest of the smoke powder weapons, and not available through the Lantanese, the bombard was developed in Thay as a defensive weapon. Weighing 2,000 lbs, the bombard can only be moved by winches or giants |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 16 Jun 2023 19:50:07 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2023 : 19:43:54
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
There's the EARTH bombard and there's the SPELLJAMMER bombard. The spelljammer bombard was essentially "interchangeable" with "cannon". They were noted as being ship mountable but placed in position. They could be remounted in an entirely different position of the ship in 1d4 turns. Now the spelljammer bombard was specifically noted as using smokepowder. It is noted that not as many ships carry them, but its noted that this is because smokepowder is dangerous in the phlogiston AND because smokepowder "works in some spheres, is unreliable in others, and might be something like jewelry polish in others".
I've not looked that deep into 2E Spelljammer material of late, and I just read the Amber books for the first time last year, so I never caught that reference before.
Ed commented on Twitter a few years ago:
"Heh. If you can somehow accumulate sufficient quantities of jewellers' rouge (buffing/shining abrasive), that works as gunpowder in Amber (Roger Zelazny), and back in the day, he and I agreed that applied to the Realms, too. TSR (Brian Thomsen, Dave Sutherland) approved." |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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bloodtide_the_red
Learned Scribe
USA
297 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2023 : 01:16:48
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quote:
Originally posted by DoveArrow
I would say that is not a fair comparison. It's fairer to compare life in Bethlehem in 20 AD to life in Bethlehem around 1870 AD. During that 1,850 year timespan, not much changed technologically. Even then, it wasn't until 1948 AD when the region started becoming industrialized.
You might be missing something. Life in 20 AD was very different then life in 1870 AD. Like in 20 AD they had oar wood warships...and in 1870 AD they had steam powered cannon iron clad warships. In 20 Ad you could ride a horse....and in 1870 AD they had steam powered trains. In 20 AD they had spears....and in 1870 AD they had muskets.
There was a lot of tech advancement over 2000 years.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7971 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2023 : 03:00:18
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Bombard: The largest of the smoke powder weapons, and not available through the Lantanese, the bombard was developed in Thay as a defensive weapon. Weighing 2,000 lbs, the bombard can only be moved by winches or giants
Ah, that's more sensible.
A cannon barrel which weighs about 2,000 pounds was commonly called a Twelve-Pound Gun (named for the weight of the shot they fired). Naval versions were considered "light cannon". Used during the Napoleonic Wars and the American Civil War. It was fired at anything and anyone in range, great against formations of men and horses, not so useful against dodgy soft targets or fixed hard targets.
A cannon which fires 2,000 pound shots was substantially larger, lol, something like the 100-ton gun (named for how much the gun weighed). This was battleship-grade artillery a few decades before World War One. It was fired at large stationary targets miles away. Normal warships did not carry such guns because they were just too large, too heavy, and their recoil would violently rock the ship.
There's about two centuries of technology between the two guns. Chemistry, gunpowder, propellants, detonators, barrels, fuses. Metallurgy, machining, casting. A lot of wars and a lot of science over a lot of time to produce weapons better than Lantanese junk. |
[/Ayrik] |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2023 : 14:41:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
There's the EARTH bombard and there's the SPELLJAMMER bombard. The spelljammer bombard was essentially "interchangeable" with "cannon". They were noted as being ship mountable but placed in position. They could be remounted in an entirely different position of the ship in 1d4 turns. Now the spelljammer bombard was specifically noted as using smokepowder. It is noted that not as many ships carry them, but its noted that this is because smokepowder is dangerous in the phlogiston AND because smokepowder "works in some spheres, is unreliable in others, and might be something like jewelry polish in others".
I've not looked that deep into 2E Spelljammer material of late, and I just read the Amber books for the first time last year, so I never caught that reference before.
Ed commented on Twitter a few years ago:
"Heh. If you can somehow accumulate sufficient quantities of jewellers' rouge (buffing/shining abrasive), that works as gunpowder in Amber (Roger Zelazny), and back in the day, he and I agreed that applied to the Realms, too. TSR (Brian Thomsen, Dave Sutherland) approved."
I'm the exact opposite... I read the Chronicles of Amber when I was still in high school. I can barely remember what happened in them though. Based on the novels and sourcebooks, I'd say we would presume that the smokepowder of spelljammer works in realmspace. Now, that same smokepowder, if brought to earth, may be the equivalent of jewelry polish... and I am assuming that's what Ed is saying. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7971 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2023 : 15:56:33
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Spelljammer smokepowder is a staple in combat in all Wildspace (including Realmspace). It's actually better than Realms smokepowder, in my opinion, since it's non-magical. So it can't, for example, be rendered temporarily or permanently inert if a beholder's gaze dispels it.
Then again, it's easy enough to collect "star metal" and "meteoric iron" in Spelljammer - but these do not seem to have any special properties or values when they're brought to the Realms. While "star metal" and "meteoric iron" found in the Realms are precious, exotic, used to make the finest items, the finest alloys, the finest enchantments. |
[/Ayrik] |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2023 : 03:38:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Spelljammer smokepowder is a staple in combat in all Wildspace (including Realmspace). It's actually better than Realms smokepowder, in my opinion, since it's non-magical. So it can't, for example, be rendered temporarily or permanently inert if a beholder's gaze dispels it.
Then again, it's easy enough to collect "star metal" and "meteoric iron" in Spelljammer - but these do not seem to have any special properties or values when they're brought to the Realms. While "star metal" and "meteoric iron" found in the Realms are precious, exotic, used to make the finest items, the finest alloys, the finest enchantments.
No it's not stable everywhere AND it is still magical. The rough quote I gave above is from the Spelljammer boxed set. Essentially, the smokepowder of Lantan follows seemingly the same rules for smokepowder used by spelljammer.
It is not however bombard oil like that used by Thayans. Also, while Thayans fire hollow shot filled with bombard oil, the normal shot for spelljammer is either rock balls or iron balls, but not hollow.
The exact quote is below regarding bombards for spelljammer and detailing smokepowder.
Bombard Also called cannon, these items are very rarre in teh Known Spheres, for a variety of reasons. They tend to be unreliable. both from the standpoint of being physically untrustworthy and more importantly, because the chemical or magical reactions vary from one world to another. Gunpowder may work perfectly inside one shell, only to be inert in another, and is a magical jewelry polish in a third. These differences are often written off as the whims of the gods themselves, to keep mortals in their place, but the result is that bombards are rare
The other reason that bombards are rare is that fire travels poorly through the phlogiston, and many a ship has exploded as the result of a poorly protected powder magazin. If the DM chooses to allow bombards and other cannon to operate in a particular sphere, any critical hit has a 10% chance of igniting the powder magazine, inflicting 2d10 x 5 hull points of damage.
Bombards use magical smoke powder to function. One shot uses 10 charges of powder. The scarcity of smoke powder (which is a magical item in fantasy space) makes bombards impractical compared to ballistas and catapults
Also, this is said in the spelljammer boxed set regarding smokepowder itself
smokepowder is a magical mixture of two inert substances which, when combined, form an explosive mix. This mixture is used in arquebuses, wheel locks, and (in large doses) bombards
I hadn't realized this bit about two inert substances prior to this. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2390 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2023 : 22:51:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Spelljammer smokepowder is a staple in combat in all Wildspace (including Realmspace). It's actually better than Realms smokepowder, in my opinion, since it's non-magical. So it can't, for example, be rendered temporarily or permanently inert if a beholder's gaze dispels it.
It's said to be magical and just does not work in some spheres.
Though AFAIK there were no explicit mentions of it being neutralized by various anti-magic effects, space sargasso (dead magic area) or most other phenomena other than exposure to phlogiston.
quote:
Then again, it's easy enough to collect "star metal" and "meteoric iron" in Spelljammer - but these do not seem to have any special properties or values when they're brought to the Realms. While "star metal" and "meteoric iron" found in the Realms are precious, exotic, used to make the finest items, the finest alloys, the finest enchantments.
AFAIK, it does not have defined properties in Realmslore either, beyond being a very rare valuable ore.
The space-mined stuff... is still a good ore. For purpose of making doped steel, anyway. It may not have the whole set of magical properties without being subjected to meteoric entry, if any. After all, "skydrop" has curious properties, and it's just desert sand glassed by meteorite impacts.
quote:
Volo's Guide to All Things Magical
Combined with alloys such as steel, star metal adds to the sharpness and flexible temper of bladed weapons and is reputed to heighten the strength and duration of all enchantments laid upon blades of which it is a part (though I have not yet been able to learn anything definite about such matters).
- p.51
Metallurgy side is pretty much nailed down. Magical conspicuously isn't. May be just better quality shells for enchantment. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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DoveArrow
Seeker
97 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2023 : 22:52:23
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quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red
You might be missing something. Life in 20 AD was very different then life in 1870 AD. Like in 20 AD they had oar wood warships...and in 1870 AD they had steam powered cannon iron clad warships. In 20 Ad you could ride a horse....and in 1870 AD they had steam powered trains. In 20 AD they had spears....and in 1870 AD they had muskets.
There was a lot of tech advancement over 2000 years.
If we're equating Bethlehem with the Egyptian and Ottoman Empires who ruled over the region, then you are correct. The Egyptian Empire used gunpowder weapons as early as 1260 AD and the Ottoman Empire was using steam ships as part of their military as early as 1828 AD. As for ships, Egypt was using sailing vessels as early as 3500 BCE, so that technology was around by 20 AD.
However, if we're looking just at Bethlehem, my understanding is that life didn't change much for the people of that region during that period of time. Even if we're not just looking at just Bethlehem, there was still a long period where the technology didn't develop all that significantly and when it did, my understanding is that technological development was rather slow compared to the last 100-200 years. If you know something I don't, feel free to correct me. I'm happy to concede that I don't know as much as I would like about this region's history.
Setting that aside, I want to point out that in many respects, Faerun technology is actually far superior to our own. For example, they can use portals to transport goods and spelljammers to travel between planets. They also have wizards with spells like fireball, which is far more accurate and deadly than a real world cannon. It's possible that the reason certain technologies we have aren't prevalent in Faerun is because there's no need for them. Magic does all that and more.
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Edited by - DoveArrow on 20 Jun 2023 00:29:19 |
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bloodtide_the_red
Learned Scribe
USA
297 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2023 : 02:39:18
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quote:
Originally posted by DoveArrow
there was still a long period where the technology didn't develop all that significantly and when it did, my understanding is that technological development was rather slow compared to the last 100-200 years. If you know something I don't, feel free to correct me. I'm happy to concede that I don't know as much as I would like about this region's history.
This just is not true. Technology...really just "knowledge" has always advanced at a fairly steady pace. Discoveries and inventions are made all the time.
The big change is communications. Writing and books...more so mass publishing. But most of all radio, TV and most of all the internet.
Depending on how old you are things have changed a LOT. Like back in the 80's to learn about the new Star Trek show...you could not do much other then read a magazine or two...that came out once a month. You SURE could not find out tons of stuff with a few button clicks.
Like...in 2023....pick a general topic...you can find a YouTube 'how to' video or six easy enough. In the 80's maybe find a book. Before that...well, good luck.
quote:
Originally posted by DoveArrow
Setting that aside, I want to point out that in many respects, Faerun technology is actually far superior to our own. For example, they can use portals to transport goods and spelljammers to travel between planets. They also have wizards with spells like fireball, which is far more accurate and deadly than a real world cannon. It's possible that the reason certain technologies we have aren't prevalent in Faerun is because there's no need for them. Magic does all that and more.
Adding magic is worse...
BUT nearly every Realms creator, form ED on down, has said many, many , many times:
"Magic is super rare" and
"Magic does NOT effect society at all"
Like Ed has said many times "gates CANNOT be used for trade EVER". Try to take more then a bucket of apples through a gate and all the gods, least of all Mystra, will stop you. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2023 : 02:58:54
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quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red
BUT nearly every Realms creator, form ED on down, has said many, many , many times:
"Magic is super rare" and
"Magic does NOT effect society at all"
Like Ed has said many times "gates CANNOT be used for trade EVER". Try to take more then a bucket of apples through a gate and all the gods, least of all Mystra, will stop you.
I'm gonna need to see some references on this, because Ed has made it clear that trade does happen through gates and that magic is not super rare -- perhaps not super accessible, but certainly not super rare. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7971 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2023 : 05:30:46
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| Aurora's Magical Items seems to do a lot of trade through magical gates and the like. |
[/Ayrik] |
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DoveArrow
Seeker
97 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2023 : 05:39:24
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quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red
This just is not true. Technology...really just "knowledge" has always advanced at a fairly steady pace. Discoveries and inventions are made all the time.
The big change is communications. Writing and books...more so mass publishing. But most of all radio, TV and most of all the internet.
Depending on how old you are things have changed a LOT. Like back in the 80's to learn about the new Star Trek show...you could not do much other then read a magazine or two...that came out once a month. You SURE could not find out tons of stuff with a few button clicks.
Like...in 2023....pick a general topic...you can find a YouTube 'how to' video or six easy enough. In the 80's maybe find a book. Before that...well, good luck.
Okay, well... I don't really feel like fighting with you about it. It's a pretty commonly accepted fact that technology didn't progress that rapidly before the Industrial Revolution (link below). We can maybe quibble over whether it started a few hundred years earlier with the Renaissance, but... yeah. Sustained technological development is a fairly recent phenomenon.
https://eml.berkeley.edu/~jsteinsson/teaching/originsofgrowth.pdf
quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red
Adding magic is worse...
BUT nearly every Realms creator, form ED on down, has said many, many , many times:
"Magic is super rare" and
"Magic does NOT effect society at all"
Like Ed has said many times "gates CANNOT be used for trade EVER". Try to take more then a bucket of apples through a gate and all the gods, least of all Mystra, will stop you.
Several books have references to using portals for trade. For example, the 3.5 book Underdark states that portals along major trade routes in the Underdark are often well marked (p. 52). The Soggy Dwarf Portal was set up to allow dwarves to continue mining in the Graypeak Mountains and transport their ore to Mirabar without alerting the giants living in that region (https://www.realmshelps.net/faerun/portals/dwarven/soggy.shtml). In Lost Empires of Faerun, it states that the Netherese stopped linking to other planes and focused on exploring Faerun when extraplanar travel proved to be dangerous and unprofitable (p. 98). Volo's Guide to the Dalelands describes how slavers still use the magical gate in the Ghost Holds (p. 50). So there are a lot of references to using portals for trade.
That said, there is a lot of lore on Forgotten Realms, so it's possible that at some point someone said they couldn't be used for that purpose. If you have a reference, I would love to see it. |
Edited by - DoveArrow on 20 Jun 2023 05:48:42 |
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DoveArrow
Seeker
97 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2023 : 05:43:19
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| By the way, I'm not trying to upset you. You asked for some possible reasons why technology might not be as advanced in Faerun as it is in the real world. I was just trying to provide some suggestions for why that might be. If you don't like any of my suggestions, you're free to reject them. If you would like to end our conversation, I'm happy to do that as well. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2023 : 13:15:06
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quote:
Originally posted by DoveArrow
In Lost Empires of Faerun, it states that the Netherese stopped linking to other planes and focused on exploring Faerun when extraplanar travel proved to be dangerous and unprofitable (p. 98).
As an aside, thanks for this reference. Several of us had been discussing this idea that Netheril and its archmages were less than cohesive as a country and at some point they had spread all over, but I didn't know I had a starting date roughly. Now I do have a pretty good "it would have started after this date" reference. Seethyr and I had both been experimenting with the idea that after having flown spelljammers into orbit, the Netherese would have decided "what are these other continents I see when I fly into space... let's go see them". I have placed one of them crashed in the northern portion of the sands of Itzcala, and hidden by an illusion, and I know he was interested in doing something (not sure what) down in Lopango.
The exact reference, to also give date info below
1014 The Netherese refocus their efforts on exploring Faerūn when travel to other worlds is found to be both dangerous and unprofitable. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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DoveArrow
Seeker
97 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2023 : 17:02:54
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by DoveArrow
In Lost Empires of Faerun, it states that the Netherese stopped linking to other planes and focused on exploring Faerun when extraplanar travel proved to be dangerous and unprofitable (p. 98).
As an aside, thanks for this reference. Several of us had been discussing this idea that Netheril and its archmages were less than cohesive as a country and at some point they had spread all over, but I didn't know I had a starting date roughly. Now I do have a pretty good "it would have started after this date" reference.
LOL! Glad I could help.  |
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bloodtide_the_red
Learned Scribe
USA
297 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2023 : 20:12:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm gonna need to see some references on this, because Ed has made it clear that trade does happen through gates and that magic is not super rare -- perhaps not super accessible, but certainly not super rare.
The Secrets of the Magister has the most about this, but also Volo's guide to magic, Magic of Fareun and Power of Fareun.
Of course when asked here, on Twitter, Discord or elsewhere he will say over and over and over again how "rare" magic is in the Realms daily life.
Of course Ed is an Unreliable Author...
As at the same time he will casually say "Oh Waterdeep has a beyond epic level spell effect that cleans the water in the harbor". And he is the same one that writes things like the shpkeeper is a 30th level arch mage/ arch dragon that freezes shop lifters in time to turn them over to the watch.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Aurora's Magical Items seems to do a lot of trade through magical gates and the like.
Yea...odd. Nothing adds up. But don't worry Mystra will obliterate Aurora (and Cromyr, and Waterdeep, and so on) because of the silly 'rule' no one can control more then two gates.
quote:
Originally posted by DoveArrow
Several books have references to using portals for trade.
That said, there is a lot of lore on Forgotten Realms, so it's possible that at some point someone said they couldn't be used for that purpose. If you have a reference, I would love to see it.
Well, Ed himself is the only hard no on gate trade. The best example is Secrets of the Magister, it has a whole gate chapter. Other bits are found in places like the Trade chapter of Power of Fareun.
Of course any writer that does not know what Ed wrote...or does not care...will just write anything they want. So you do see trade portals a bit in Realmslore.
And it's not like Ed does not ignore what he wrote anyway...though sure he can just say "Mystra makes lots and lots of exceptions to the rule". |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2023 : 22:52:27
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quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm gonna need to see some references on this, because Ed has made it clear that trade does happen through gates and that magic is not super rare -- perhaps not super accessible, but certainly not super rare.
The Secrets of the Magister has the most about this, but also Volo's guide to magic, Magic of Fareun and Power of Fareun.
I need more specifics. Secrets of the Magister speaks of no inherent danger of using gates, but that Mystra tries to keep mass movement through them limited. Caravans and armies are out, but a dozen individuals with mounts and pack animals is fine.
I can't find anything in Volo's Guide to All Things Magical aside from individual spells or artifacts that can impact gates. Magic of Faerūn similarly fails to list any issues, and the only potential problem with portals mentioned in Power of Faerūn (aside from costs and security) refers back to a table in the 3E FRCS, which describes how older portals can malfunction. Power of Faerūn has an entire section on trade happening through portals.
So we've got direct quotes from Ed saying trade happens via portal/gate, and the sources you cite either fail to contradict that or actively support it. |
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DoveArrow
Seeker
97 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2023 : 02:13:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm gonna need to see some references on this, because Ed has made it clear that trade does happen through gates and that magic is not super rare -- perhaps not super accessible, but certainly not super rare.
The Secrets of the Magister has the most about this, but also Volo's guide to magic, Magic of Fareun and Power of Fareun.
I need more specifics. Secrets of the Magister speaks of no inherent danger of using gates, but that Mystra tries to keep mass movement through them limited. Caravans and armies are out, but a dozen individuals with mounts and pack animals is fine.
I can't find anything in Volo's Guide to All Things Magical aside from individual spells or artifacts that can impact gates. Magic of Faerūn similarly fails to list any issues, and the only potential problem with portals mentioned in Power of Faerūn (aside from costs and security) refers back to a table in the 3E FRCS, which describes how older portals can malfunction. Power of Faerūn has an entire section on trade happening through portals.
So we've got direct quotes from Ed saying trade happens via portal/gate, and the sources you cite either fail to contradict that or actively support it.
I do know that there is a thread on Candlekeep Forums somewhere that mentioned something Ed Greenwood included in one of his novels about how portals aren't always reliable and sometimes traders who use them regularly wind up disappearing. I found it yesterday, but I can't seem to find it now, so I couldn't tell you which novel it was in. Maybe you have better interweb skillzorz than I do and can find it. That's the best lead that I could find that alluded to this idea.
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Edited by - DoveArrow on 21 Jun 2023 02:14:25 |
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DoveArrow
Seeker
97 Posts |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2390 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2023 : 03:25:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Aurora's Magical Items seems to do a lot of trade through magical gates and the like.
What is "Aurora's Magical Items"? 
Aurora's Emporium trades via her own teleport circles.
quote:
Originally posted by DoveArrow
Okay, well... I don't really feel like fighting with you about it. It's a pretty commonly accepted fact that technology didn't progress that rapidly before the Industrial Revolution (link below). We can maybe quibble over whether it started a few hundred years earlier with the Renaissance, but... yeah.
Aside of the habitually ill-defined "technology"... It's a self-congratulatory common place. Also known as "kool aid".
quote:
Sustained technological development is a fairly recent phenomenon.
Does this phrase, taken alone, not strike you as somewhat oxymoronic? I mean "sustained" and "recent" used together, of course.
So, there were teh Greeks and their toys. And others. The old Hindu achievements, for one, look quite impressive (against the background). Eventually... they just kind of sank in babble, it wasn't even like the collapse of Roman Empire. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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DoveArrow
Seeker
97 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2023 : 04:42:33
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Does this phrase, taken alone, not strike you as somewhat oxymoronic? I mean "sustained" and "recent" used together, of course.
So, there were the Greeks and their toys. And others. The old Hindu achievements, for one, look quite impressive (against the background). Eventually... they just kind of sank in babble, it wasn't even like the collapse of Roman Empire.
While I did not address the Greeks and Hindus specifically, I brought up the cultural factors that historians believe prevented China from having its own Industrial Revolution. While the cultural factors were different for China, the culture of invention, discovery, and the use of it to advance one's social status were not in place in Greek and Hindu culture the way they were in Europe and the Americas, which is why many historians suppose the Roman Empire didn't have its own Industrial Revolution, despite having knowledge of the steam engine. There's also an argument to make that lack of human labor and water power are reasons that industry took off at a more rapid pace in the United States than it did in Great Britain, where the Industrial Revolution started.
As for the comment you feel is oxymoronic, I have made several posts in this thread on the issue, so I think it's better to take the comment in context rather than alone. I also provided a link to a research paper that addresses the topic of what sustained technological progress looks like in far more detail than I can in a message board post.
I think, though, we're losing the main thrust of my original comment, which is that, for thousands of years, people lived in agrarian societies under autocratic rule, that unique cultural factors contributed to our current, technologically driven culture, and that those cultural factors really only developed in the last few centuries. With maybe the exception of Lantan, it seems to me that the cultures of Faerun do not necessarily share those cultural values. Even then, Lantan is secretive about their technological marvels and may have good reasons for being so, which could be why Faerun has not gone through an Industrial Revolution of its own. |
Edited by - DoveArrow on 21 Jun 2023 05:00:02 |
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DoveArrow
Seeker
97 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2023 : 16:46:06
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By the way, I was talking with my wife, who has a degree in History, just to check my own assumptions. She told me I wasn't exactly full of it, but that history is more complicated than I'm making it. So I'll concede that.
She did agree with one thing that I haven't mentioned, but has been in the back of my mind. The number of life and culture changing inventions has increased exponentially over the years. Because of that, there is this long period of time where not much happens technologically. Then it hockey sticks around the time of the Industrial Revolution. As just one example, a man, named Tim Harford, collected what he considered to be some of the most revolutionary inventions in history and plots them on a graph (https://magazine.impactscool.com/en/future-is-now/luomo-e-una-tecnologia-esponenziale/). You can see the majority of them occur during the time of the Industrial Revolution compared to previous eras.
She also mentioned something I hadn't considered, which is that there was a major setback in technological development after the fall of the Roman Empire. Innovation and even use of technology in general fell during the Middle Ages and you can even see it in Harford's graph (link above). It wasn't until the Renaissance when a lot of those innovations were rediscovered.
Faerun has gone through several such devastating events. The fall of the Imaskari, Karsus's Folly, the Time of Troubles, and the Spellplague are all such examples that not only involved the destruction of major civilizations, but changed the way magic works. There are secrets buried in the ruins of Faerun's ancient civilizations and many of them cannot be recreated due to the fact that magic no longer works as it did then. It makes sense, at least to me, that Faerun would struggle in ways that we haven't as a society in bringing about the magical equivalent of an Industrial Revolution. Sure, Gond could reveal many of those secrets that still work the same today but have been lost. However, as I mentioned before, it seems like Gond's church operates more like the real world equivalent of the Freemasons or the Italian guilds, since the gnomes of Lantan seem reluctant to share their innovations with outsiders. |
Edited by - DoveArrow on 21 Jun 2023 16:49:33 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7971 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2023 : 16:59:09
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Exponential technology growth closely matches exponential population growth.
Maybe either one causes the other one. Maybe either one follows the other one. Many academics study this question, but most tend to specialize in soft-sciences and all have a very sparse corpus of data to work from ... so this whole topic seems to produce more questions than answers.
But I don't see any rapid population increases or decreases in Realmslore, as a cause or as a consequence of technological innovations. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
890 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2023 : 23:29:51
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| The sparse corpus of data Ayrik mentioned makes causal inference impossible. To say A causes B not only requires 1. A and B correlated and 2. A precedes B, but 3. everything other than A has been ruled out. |
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DoveArrow
Seeker
97 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2023 : 05:36:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Exponential technology growth closely matches exponential population growth.
Maybe either one causes the other one. Maybe either one follows the other one. Many academics study this question, but most tend to specialize in soft-sciences and all have a very sparse corpus of data to work from ... so this whole topic seems to produce more questions than answers.
But I don't see any rapid population increases or decreases in Realmslore, as a cause or as a consequence of technological innovations.
Oye! I've already spent too many hours reading up on this topic for no reason. (I won't call it research, because it was by no means comprehensive.) I don't want to read anymore.
Y'know... reading more about this. I'm not swearing off reading altogether. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2023 : 14:00:32
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quote:
Originally posted by DoveArrow
By the way, I was talking with my wife, who has a degree in History, just to check my own assumptions. She told me I wasn't exactly full of it, but that history is more complicated than I'm making it. So I'll concede that.
She did agree with one thing that I haven't mentioned, but has been in the back of my mind. The number of life and culture changing inventions has increased exponentially over the years. Because of that, there is this long period of time where not much happens technologically. Then it hockey sticks around the time of the Industrial Revolution. As just one example, a man, named Tim Harford, collected what he considered to be some of the most revolutionary inventions in history and plots them on a graph (https://magazine.impactscool.com/en/future-is-now/luomo-e-una-tecnologia-esponenziale/). You can see the majority of them occur during the time of the Industrial Revolution compared to previous eras.
She also mentioned something I hadn't considered, which is that there was a major setback in technological development after the fall of the Roman Empire. Innovation and even use of technology in general fell during the Middle Ages and you can even see it in Harford's graph (link above). It wasn't until the Renaissance when a lot of those innovations were rediscovered.
Faerun has gone through several such devastating events. The fall of the Imaskari, Karsus's Folly, the Time of Troubles, and the Spellplague are all such examples that not only involved the destruction of major civilizations, but changed the way magic works. There are secrets buried in the ruins of Faerun's ancient civilizations and many of them cannot be recreated due to the fact that magic no longer works as it did then. It makes sense, at least to me, that Faerun would struggle in ways that we haven't as a society in bringing about the magical equivalent of an Industrial Revolution. Sure, Gond could reveal many of those secrets that still work the same today but have been lost. However, as I mentioned before, it seems like Gond's church operates more like the real world equivalent of the Freemasons or the Italian guilds, since the gnomes of Lantan seem reluctant to share their innovations with outsiders.
Only one minor beef with what you just said "since the humans and gnomes of Lantan". This isn't dragonlance and the gnomish population of Lantan is NOT the prevailing population. There ARE human technological marvels in the world.
To add to this conversation a little more, let's look at Mulhorand's history canonically.
From Old Empires page 34... taking snippets to make this less cumbersome for a forum read... recommend people read the whole thing though.
Throughout its history, Mulhorand has been a tool-using culture. The invention of magic has substituted for some of the functions of tools, but magic is rare. Only the dwarves can call themselves more technically advanced than the ancient Mulhorandi. Between the First and Second Empires, political stability and a historically secure border with Unther enabled the Mulhorandi to develop new technologies.
<snip, info about weapon development>
Furthermore, there is evidence to suggest that trading between the dwarves of the Great Rift and Mulhorandi gave the humans the secrets of forging steel. It was steel weapons that enabled Mulhorand to carve out an empire in the north. This more or less ended Mulhorandi developments in weaponry. Meanwhile the gods, who were more conservative than their followers, still used weapons of highly enchanted bronze.
<snip, more info about weapon and armor development and use>
A number of other technical innovations occurred between the First and Second Empires, notably the invention of the wheel and the block and tackle. The wheel led to the invention of the chariot, which gave warriors additional protection in battle and enabled them to maneuver on the battlefield far more quickly. The block and tackle enabled buildings to be constructed more easily (the great pyramids of the First Empire were all constructed without these tools, relying instead on human strength and teamwork).
The most interesting of the technical innovations, though, was the invention of the pressure engine. The priests of Thoth devised a way to use dams and engines to harness the power of Mulhorand's rivers, which they used to grind grain and pump water into far reaches of the desert, fertilizing the desert soil. A period of desert settlement followed. It ended when the pharaoh disapproved of a plan to build a huge dam on the River of Spears, feeling that technological innovation had gone too far. He ordered all development on river and steam technology ended.
Eventually the engines fell into disrepair, though a few steam engines, powered by stones of everburning, yet pump water into isolated areas. There has recently been a rebirth of interest among a small faction of Thoth priests, known as the Technologists. They are
defying the ancient order against working with steam technology and are trying to rediscover the secrets of the ancients, master them, then see what else can be done with this weird form of magic.
So, looking at the above... the ancient Mulhorandi could in effect be seen to have come very close to discovering what we in our society would call nuclear power... except that they don't know anything about electricity. So, their use of steam engine technology is limited to what might be done with mills, etc... and bear in mind that they have lost this knowledge. There are still these "stones of everburning" ... which I know probably should be something like uranium... but given that this is a magic world, I choose to believe that there is some magical reason for these (crystals mined from a primordial such as Pandorym, efreeti bound into stones, rocks/crystals brought from the elemental plane of fire, enhanced pieces of the athora recovered from Sarrukh ruins, stones imbued by the massive destructive power that created the plains of purple dust, etc...)
Now, while I like what the author wrote here, I also tend to want to rewrite SOME of that. For instance, I picture the Imaskari as having knowledge of "the wheel"... so I choose to believe that the Mulhorandi devised a "better" wheel. Maybe a wheel comprised of thin metal spokes so that it's lighter, versus wooden or stone wheels.
I also choose to believe that SOMETHING happened that made the pharaoh go "WHOA, let's stop this development". Perhaps one of these pressure engines had an effect similar to a nuclear explosion.... not AS bad mind you, but big enough to maybe destroy some major city. Perhaps it even came close to threatening the manifestation of a god.... and oooh, that would make a good plot... what if someone overloaded a steam engine in an act meant to kill a manifestation (internal terrorists maybe, or even EXTERNAL terrorists such as early red wizards, elves, dragons, Imaskari remnants who followed Thayd, vengeful genies, Eltab's forces when he ruled in Eltabranar and invaded southern Unther and Mulhorand before being entrapped by an incarnation of Anhur in Thaymount, The people of Kara-Tur, etc...)? This could really be developed into some good story with some ruins that need to be explored, etc... ala something that might even resemble the desert of desolation story in some ways.
I would also note that Mulhorand was preceded by Artificers (which may be in name but not the same as "modern" artificers... ) and followed on by artificers in Raumathar. In Rashemen there's a place that seems to be some kind of remnant of technology as well (the Ring of Gray Flames... smokestacks going into the ground with flames coming out the tops... and surrounded by "spellwards" which very much resemble living spells).
As an aside: If someone can find the actual date that the Pharaoh of Mulhorand made the decree to stop exploring technological development, I'd appreciate it. It involved people wanting to build a new dam on the river of spears, presumably for a new pressure engineer. Presumably it was during the second empire of Mulhorand. The second empire of Mulhorand rose after the fall of Narfell and Raumathar when they expanded back into the Priador (and presumably discovered technology from the Raumathari artificers civilizations) and is said to have continued until the rise of the red wizards 400 years ago. So, sometime between -150 DR and roughly 922 DR should be when this Pharaoh made this decree.
Part of me wonders if the Pharaoh's decree came as a result of the Battle of Thazalhar with the red wizards. Perhaps there was a pressure engine there that they used Eltab to break into, and perhaps the resulting explosion was what turned the tide against the Mulhorandi and turned Thazalhar into the deadlands that it is today separating the two countries. The Pharaoh, seeing an even BIGGER pressure engine in development in the south of the country may have decided to stop development as a result. It might even be something where Eltab learned this idea when destroying an older pressure engine during the invasion by Eltabranar seven centuries prior (maybe with a much smaller explosion, and thus less noted by the pharaoh at that time). Eltab may have learned some knowledge of factories and such from his two centuries ruling over the fallen people of Raumathar (some being artificers) before being bound by the wychlaran in the Sharawood and guarded by the Everlasting Wyrm.
EDIT: going with the above idea further... if there WAS something akin to a "weapon of mass destruction" going off as a result of the destruction of a pressure engine in Thazalhar...
From this by Ed and George, we see the actual names of the incarnations of Horus-Re that died fighting the red wizards... and note ALL of them died... and then an incarnation of THOTH, god of knowledge takes the throne... almost like they wanted someone with knowledge of technology to take the lead for a bit. Would it not be ironic if the incarnation of Thoth who took the throne was the one who saw the threat posed by pressure engines and decreed stopping study... but then possibly LATER incarnations of Horus-Re expanded this decree in retribution.
https://www.sageadvice.eu/can-you-post-a-list-of-kings-of-mulhorand-from-its-founding-to-current-times/ |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 22 Jun 2023 16:52:29 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7971 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2023 : 16:12:27
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A common theme in fantasy novels of some decades ago was for magic-vs-science to be opposed and warring forces. Not passively incompatible, but actively destructive to their opposites.
The more a world begins to develop and understand science, the weaker their magic becomes.
The more a world begins to practice magic and the supernatural, the weaker their science becomes.
I can only speculate about what sorts of fantasy novels may have influenced Ed in the early years. It's possible he incorporated at least a little bit of this stylish-for-a-while old concept into Realmslore.
I'm sure that most of the current lot of WotC writers have no interest in "obsolete" fantasy literature and concepts. Whenever they present an old idea in a new way they claim a lot of credit and invention for it ... I honestly don't know if this is because they are just ignorant of the things they're ripping off, or if they're actively stealing things that are so old that "nobody" will notice. |
[/Ayrik] |
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How much does Gond know?
