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EricMinde
Seeker
Canada
97 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Mar 2022 : 17:12:32
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I'm looking for any resource that points to when the god Lathander was created. I can find almost every other instance of recorded god birth except Lathanders.
I did find one snippet stating that Lathander and Bhaal were the first gods created but I can't find any source material attached to it.
Does anyone know when Lathander came into being or why he has the title Commander of Creativity?
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"When you understand the impossible, it changes to improbable and that means there's a chance!"
~Baroth Quagmire, built an orphanage, grew a castle in his friends home, the home did not survive the birth. Died three times and fought his way out of hell. Only player I've ever seen roll three 1% in a row. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2022 : 19:17:08
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| I don't think there are creation myths about Lathander, unless you count those that state he is Amaunator reborn in modern times. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2022 : 20:20:25
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There was a Tweet of Ed's that indicated the Dawn Cataclysm happened while Mystryl was around. His comment was that the Weave stopped working during the Dawn Cataclysm.
But this cessation of the Weave isn't recorded in Netherese history -- or any of the other histories we know about. Which implies it happened before the time of Netheril, possibly way before. At the very least, it didn't happen while there were enclaves in the air.
And if Lathander started the whole thing, that pushes him back at least that far.
But we also know he wasn't a deity until much more recently. You could do the cyclical thing, but he's described as a young deity, so that really doesn't work well.
So I conclude he was around long ago, and likely some sort of powerful divine servant, but not a deity. If he was something like a Chosen or a Proxy (using Planescape terms, there), then it could put him in a position to set off a chain of events that becomes the Dawn Cataclysm.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2022 : 10:51:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There was a Tweet of Ed's that indicated the Dawn Cataclysm happened while Mystryl was around. His comment was that the Weave stopped working during the Dawn Cataclysm.
But this cessation of the Weave isn't recorded in Netherese history -- or any of the other histories we know about. Which implies it happened before the time of Netheril, possibly way before. At the very least, it didn't happen while there were enclaves in the air.
And if Lathander started the whole thing, that pushes him back at least that far.
But we also know he wasn't a deity until much more recently. You could do the cyclical thing, but he's described as a young deity, so that really doesn't work well.
So I conclude he was around long ago, and likely some sort of powerful divine servant, but not a deity. If he was something like a Chosen or a Proxy (using Planescape terms, there), then it could put him in a position to set off a chain of events that becomes the Dawn Cataclysm.
Lawful Neutral and Neutral Good.. a Celestial nomadic Deva exploring all there is to this divine existence, perhaps? Hmm, I shouldn't put how much Planescape lore in my Realms contemplation. It's funny to imagine all this from a single minor archon soul. Polar-opposite to the 'larva becomes a demon lord becomes a god' situation with Orcus on the other end of the cosmos.
Also, I have been researching this topic endlessly and this is my favorite old scroll to share when it gets brought up- the Tripartite sun god stuff heresy ayda yada..
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12339 |
:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, Long Live Pluto: :IRC lives:
https://thisisstorytelling.wordpress.com
T_P_T |
Edited by - PattPlays on 02 Mar 2022 10:57:05 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6645 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2022 : 00:00:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There was a Tweet of Ed's that indicated the Dawn Cataclysm happened while Mystryl was around. His comment was that the Weave stopped working during the Dawn Cataclysm.
But this cessation of the Weave isn't recorded in Netherese history -- or any of the other histories we know about. Which implies it happened before the time of Netheril, possibly way before. At the very least, it didn't happen while there were enclaves in the air.
And if Lathander started the whole thing, that pushes him back at least that far.
But we also know he wasn't a deity until much more recently. You could do the cyclical thing, but he's described as a young deity, so that really doesn't work well.
So I conclude he was around long ago, and likely some sort of powerful divine servant, but not a deity. If he was something like a Chosen or a Proxy (using Planescape terms, there), then it could put him in a position to set off a chain of events that becomes the Dawn Cataclysm.
Have you considered the possibility that Karsus' Folly triggered the Dawn Cataclysm and that it wasn't an "instant" event?
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2022 : 10:47:15
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quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
Lawful Neutral and Neutral Good.. a Celestial nomadic Deva exploring all there is to this divine existence, perhaps?
What about a "Solar" becoming a Sun deity? |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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EricMinde
Seeker
Canada
97 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2022 : 17:22:07
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So I've been doing some serious crawling through tomes and did my very best to distil fact from fiction and when I was almost done, I found this. It lines up almost exactly with what I found out and I believe (much like the original author) that this is the closest account to the entirety of known events surrounding the dawn cataclysm. In this time, Lathander was already a god. Any and all references that I could find refer to his youth and vigor as being personality aspects or appearance aspects but his actual age of 'godliness' seems to stretch back to creation.
here we go; circa 2003, Source: https://sorcerers.net/community/threads/the-dawn-cataclysm.25712/
I got interested in the Dawn Cataclysm a while back, and did some research. This is the culmination of that effort. Correct me if I'm wrong, and add anything else you know. And could somebody please put a link to this site on the Candlekeep Forums (Recent Events - Lathander's Second Dawn), as I can't do it myself - I'm not a member. Enjoy, and tell me what you think! I might write my own story on it later.
The Dawn Cataclysm
Written by the Smyther, commonly known as Neal Smith.
There are many myths, ideas, rumors, and half-truths going around about the Dawn Cataclysm. But I took an interest in this fictorical event and took the liberty of researching every bit of known data. If I have missed something out, and you know it to be ‘canon data,’ then please don’t hesitate to tell me. I found the bones of the Cataclysm and fleshed them out, filling in the gaps with likely or probable things and events. The following is not ‘canon data,’ but it can be taken as the closest thing to Wizards of the Coast actually publishing something on this mysterious event in the history of Faerun.
The date of the Dawn Cataclysm has been widely varied with the telling. Sources say that it took place after the fall of the Netheril, and before the fall of Myth Drannor. This is true – in fact, it is also said that this event heralded the fall of that great elven city. I am not entirely sure if they played a direct role in the fall, but they may have prophesized it during the war. Back to the point, the most prevalent and relevant information shows that the date of the Dawn Cataclysm was sometime in 720 DR, ending on what would be called the Day of Shadows. (Volo’s Guide to All Things Magical incorrectly states that Azuth was brought to godhood during this time, and that the godswar ended on the Year of Shadows – the year of the beginning of the Time of Troubles.) There are dates putting the Dawn Cataclysm at 161 DR, 134 DR, -331 DR, and –339 DR. These are incorrect. The Cataclysm was in 720 DR, and the date was used by knowledgeable sages to mark the beginning of the Age of Humanity.
The Dawn Cataclysm is regarded as nearly irrelevant to mortal history, and therefore there is no point in considering it at all. Unfortunately, this is not a good view, as the godswar had a great effect on the history of the Forgotten Realms. It was during this time that Lathander formed his enmity with Shar over her servants’ interference with his plans, and his uneasiness with Helm, as Helm’s lover Murdance was killed during this time. But most important of all, it was during this time that the goddess Tyche experienced a schism, forming the two splinter faiths of Tymora and Beshaba – the goddesses of good and bad luck, respectively. In addition, it was during this time that the high god Ao opened up Realmspace to all races and faiths from other worlds, effectively beginning true multi-universe travel; this would likely have occurred at the end of the godswar on the Day of Shadows.
During the Dawn Cataclysm, old feuds were brought anew, new fights were started, old scores were settled, and new enmities began. There are only several gods known conclusively to have existed during this time, and it is certain that all the faiths of the following were affected by the war. All faiths would be affected. The known existing gods were Amaunator, Jannath, Kozah, Moander, Mystra, Selune, Shar, Targus, Tyche, Helm, Murdance, Azuth, Bane, Bhaal, Myrkul, and Lathander. There would definitely be records made by the priests of the gods at the time, as their gods would have instructed them to battle opposing churches, to weaken the gods above.
As for how the Dawn Cataclysm started, the events of the godswar can be directly traced to the god of renewal, youth, perfection, creativity, and new ventures – Lathander. This god decided that evil was on the rise, a view shared by Chauntea and Oghma, who both knew of Lathander’s impending plans, yet decided to do nothing about it. The god of creativity concocted a ritual to use an item called the Dawnstone to destroy every creature on Toril and reincarnate the realms in his own image. Needless to day, the other gods were not pleased upon discovering this plan, and war soon ensued over it. Some gods would likely have been on Lathander’s side, others would have been dead set against this new world order, giving two sides in the physical and magical debate. Evil gods would have likely used the chaos to their advantage, playing gods against gods to further their own ends and create more factions in the fight. It would seem to the gods that the only ones they could trust would be themselves. Sometime at this point, the gods gathered at the Dancing Place in Highdale upon Faerun. It was likely a chance for Ao to moderate what was going on.
Whilst the fights raged, Tyche left the war – likely to escape the chaos, or get away from the ideas of her lover Lathander. Before she left, she kissed Lathander with bad luck, but upon Toril she found a perfect rose that she took to be a sign of Lathander’s apology. However, she ended up having to curse the rose with bad luck in order to pick it and place it behind her ear. Unbeknownst to her, the rose was the hidden form of the god of decay and corruption Moander, whom also decided to seek refuge and perhaps sow some chaos in the realms. The corruption from the god flower spread to her and rotted her core with misfortune, so much so that when she returned to the planes, her ally Selune recognized it and split her in two with purifying light. This split caused the formation of Tymora and Beshaba, who began their feud right then and there, and have continued ever since.
Back in the war, spies of Shar entered the fray, and made their way to the heart of Lathander’s plan. They then either corrupted the efforts of Lathander, or exploited some weakness in the plan that made it doomed to fail – or both. It is not known how the war ended, but it is likely that when Lathander’s plan failed, the gods lost their reason to war, and began to settle down. It is also quite entirely probable that the high god Ao stepped in to settle the disputes, as he would not want the realms to become involved with the godswar, ruining the delicate balance on the mortal world.
Thus the Dawn Cataclysm began and ended. More information is likely to be found on the subject, as old records of sages are uncovered. More things will be known to have happened, each with its effect on the mortal world, increasing the Cataclysm’s significance. The preceding information is not one hundred percent accurate, but it is the best one can currently get on this fantastic event in the history of Toril – an event that shaped the events and people of the realms today.
If you wish to contact me, my address is (it's on their webpage). I hope this exposition, comprising of the main points of all the known data on the Dawn Cataclysm, is not too depressingly short.
Sources: A Grand Tour of the Realms, The History of the Realms, The Forgotten Realms FAQ (Steven Schend, Simon Gibbs, Paul Hoyak, Jason Hatter, Travis King), Volo’s Guide to All Things Magical (Ed Greenwood, Eric L. Boyd), http://www.ladylucks.net/aboutme.htm, and http://www.candlekeep.com
-------------------
This all fits perfectly with everything I've dug up. Whatchu think? |
"When you understand the impossible, it changes to improbable and that means there's a chance!"
~Baroth Quagmire, built an orphanage, grew a castle in his friends home, the home did not survive the birth. Died three times and fought his way out of hell. Only player I've ever seen roll three 1% in a row. |
Edited by - EricMinde on 22 Mar 2022 17:24:21 |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
954 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2022 : 19:23:08
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| It's also been suggested that these events do not occur on a linear timeline, which would allow them to take simultaneously at different times, if you will. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2022 : 21:11:10
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I argued the early 700s date for a long time, myself. But Ed's comment about Mystryl being around during the Dawn Cataclysm pushes the date back to no later than -339 DR. Given the lack of mention of magic failing before Karsus screwed up, I'm thinking it happened before Netheril had become reliant on magic.
The only real solutions to reconcile everything are the "outside of time" explanation that I personally abhor; the idea that the DC was a long-running event with centuries, even millennia passing between different parts of it; or somehow time got screwed up and things that may have happened at one specific point instead were scattered about.
It's also possible -- even likely -- that some of what we "know" about the DC is wrong, which would mean we're trying to reconcile things that are actually unrelated. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2022 : 03:31:51
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| I'm not even done reading the linked wall of text, but it has lead me to discover the Dancing Place through many tangential thoughts and wiki-hunts. I did NOT expect to see the line "led to the founding of the Harpers" when clicking on a thread about Lathander. The linked post does seem to use the term Godswar interchangeably and it gets a bit confusing for me to tell when they're talking about 720 and when they're talking about 1358. I guess that's on brand for this time-scattered topic. |
:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, Long Live Pluto: :IRC lives:
https://thisisstorytelling.wordpress.com
T_P_T |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11692 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2022 : 17:18:00
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quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
It's also been suggested that these events do not occur on a linear timeline, which would allow them to take simultaneously at different times, if you will.
Or that Lathander and Amaunator (who at one point claimed control of time) at some point implemented some kind of time shenanigans, and THAT is why we have had the "cyclical" nature of Lathander and Amaunator coming and going. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
954 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2022 : 21:10:14
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| Amaunator's impact on or control of time is suspect, but as with all things godly, it is a bit ineffable. |
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2022 : 01:39:47
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| Yeah it seemed to be more of a "passage of the day" sun traversing the sky kind of Time domain. All pan-dimensional god-beings probably have a consciousness extending into the past and future. The Time domain of Anaumator (was the concept introduced in the controvercial Netheril boxed set, too? If he were truly a god of time travel, I think he would have played a bigger part in the "time travel back to the fall of netheril" adventure.) always sung to me more as a god of time as it relates to daily life. He's the sun. The sun is used to tell time. It's probably that simple. |
:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, Long Live Pluto: :IRC lives:
https://thisisstorytelling.wordpress.com
T_P_T |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
954 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2022 : 00:02:46
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| That's pretty much what the existing lore says. Amaunator was the god of the sun and bureaucracy and there was an unclear clause in the wording of his portfolio that gave him de facto control of time. |
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2022 : 01:46:34
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| Wasn't the Netheril boxed set violently controversial for having low quality and minimal useful tools with broad strokes on the culture? If the only source for Time originally is that boxed set, I'd consider extrapolating that to make Anaumator a time god is ridiculous. It's time as the average person in Netheril conceives of time. The sun is the hand of the clock of the sky. Even the Chronomancer wasn't actually a time traveler. Who designed the "let's time travel to Netheril just before the fall" boxed set again? No hate, just trying to remember details from it when I used to have access to the book. |
:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, Long Live Pluto: :IRC lives:
https://thisisstorytelling.wordpress.com
T_P_T |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2022 : 02:08:28
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| I don't know that it was controversial as much as just plain poorly received. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2022 : 03:26:08
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| Hm. Seems Eric wrote an article on him 1995 name dropping the time aspect. Maybe I'll track it down to see how it elaborates if E.L.B. doesn't show up in this thread. |
:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, Long Live Pluto: :IRC lives:
https://thisisstorytelling.wordpress.com
T_P_T |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
954 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2022 : 22:19:19
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Amaunator's role and history with the time portfolio is covered by Faiths and Avatars by Julia Martin with Eric Boyd. It covers the whole misinterpretation of the contract thing and how Amaunator never really did much/took on the portfolio, despite some ascribing it to him.
The Netheril box set was generally mediocre with silly names that missed some existing lore. It is of course canon now and as with all mistakes, others have since done what they could to explain away those contained therein, so it's not a total loss. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6645 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2022 : 12:21:22
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I’m not a fan of dating the Dawn Cataclysm. And if I was, I certainly would not date it at 720 DR.
— George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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The DMs Revenge
Acolyte
USA
27 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2022 : 17:27:43
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I don't know that it's a great way to expain the Dawn War, but I'm personally intrigued by the idea that the Dawn War was caused by Lathander or an agent of his traveling backwards through time.
If causation ran backwards, with the inciting individual hopping backwards in time (perhaps in an attempt to change one or more events in history to "fix" the present), that could satisfy ALL the requirements/descriptions of the DW.
It would "exist outside the normal flow of time" as it'd be happening 'backwards' relative to history. And if the agent is hopping through time, i believe they could interact with all the mentioned events/ gods.
Like i said, I'm not certain its a "good" explanation, but i find it an intriguing possibility. (And Ed's definitely cunning enough to come up with something that crazy.) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2022 : 20:37:59
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quote:
Originally posted by The DMs Revenge
(And Ed's definitely cunning enough to come up with something that crazy.)
I don't believe Ed came up with the Dawn Cataclysm -- I believe it was originally just a throwaway line somewhere that wound up catching a lot of attention. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The DMs Revenge
Acolyte
USA
27 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2022 : 02:22:04
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I believe he's teased out info about it onnTwitter before, and i believe he doesn't usually speak about things he hasn't created.
But, i could be SUPER wrong... |
Edited by - The DMs Revenge on 31 Mar 2022 02:38:52 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2022 : 04:23:02
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quote:
Originally posted by The DMs Revenge
I believe he's teased out info about it onnTwitter before, and i believe he doesn't usually speak about things he hasn't created.
But, i could be SUPER wrong...
He has mentioned it before, in a lot of places... But he's spoken on plenty of things he didn't create -- like drow, the Shades, Waukeen... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6645 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2022 : 08:15:11
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Ed often speaks about things he hasn't created and certainly in his novels he provides subtle, deft explanations for "stuff" in the Realms that people declare "should be" (like, why portals aren't used as a ubiquitous mode of transport for anything and everything Realms-wide). Usually his input is complementary or intended to bed something down into the Realms in a firmer fashion than the original writer/developer managed.
As for the Dawn Cataclysm, that was definitely not a creation of Ed's. And similarly, Eric Boyd and I had our way in terms of the FR 3E campaign book release leaving it mysterious and relatively undetailed. Why would we want to deprive fans of the recurring discussions that have unfolded over the years, such as this one?
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11692 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2022 : 21:03:46
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quote:
Originally posted by The DMs Revenge
I don't know that it's a great way to expain the Dawn War, but I'm personally intrigued by the idea that the Dawn War was caused by Lathander or an agent of his traveling backwards through time.
If causation ran backwards, with the inciting individual hopping backwards in time (perhaps in an attempt to change one or more events in history to "fix" the present), that could satisfy ALL the requirements/descriptions of the DW.
It would "exist outside the normal flow of time" as it'd be happening 'backwards' relative to history. And if the agent is hopping through time, i believe they could interact with all the mentioned events/ gods.
Like i said, I'm not certain its a "good" explanation, but i find it an intriguing possibility. (And Ed's definitely cunning enough to come up with something that crazy.)
Yeah, that's why I mentioned it as a "possibility".... not sure HOW to implement it, but it definitely could prove interesting.
For instance, IF we go with the idea that Amaunatar WAS an attempt by Amon-Re (possibly an avatar or incarnation of Ra) to invade another pantheon via At'ar (creating Amon'Ra'at'ar) .... hmmm, At'ar as a shortening of avatar.... or Amon-Ra's Avatar... did some follower of Lathander go back in time and get involved with the orcgate wars in order to get not one, but two sun gods killed (Ra and Utu both... and if Ra was tied to Amaunator, then a portion of his power as well). The whole Dawn Cataclysm might involve Lathander trying to seize control of the sun portfolio by eliminating other deities.
Along these same lines, if Lathander had jumped back in time for "shenanigans" he may have revealed accidentally to Jergal that something was coming and that may have triggered Jergal doing what he did with Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul.
We might even find out something like Lathander is actually a fey deity with ties to Corellon and the elven sundering... which might explain some things like Lathander disappearing during the spellplague.
It would obviously be some kind of convoluted mess to figure out, but it might be fun to try, and I'd love to hear any theories.
EDIT: On At'ar... she was Kozah (aka Talos') "wife" ... who cheated on him with the god of the dead at night (in theory, prior to Cyric and Myrkul would have been Jergal). Could Kozah/Talos have "raised up" a goddess of the sun in the Netherese pantheon that Ra then "took over" and became Amaunator. Might Jergal and Ra have made some "horse trading" for each to "invade" the other's pantheon? Jergal having ties SOMEHOW with Nergal (and thus why Gilgeam won't let him be buried in Unther's soil), and Ra with the wife of Kozah. Thus why Kozah/Talos may have wanted Gruumsh sponsored into the world during the orcgate wars to "end" Ra. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 01 Apr 2022 21:18:49 |
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2022 : 03:09:11
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I love the idea of Jergal having more reasons to do what they do, however the time traveling of these gods should be comparable. I don't see enough evidence to prove that Anaunator (or Lathander for that matter) can do things the other gods could not, as all greater gods would be generally at the same level of trans-dimensional omniscience. It would stand to reason that the time travel subterfuge of one god would run into the time travel plans of every other god involved there and then that has the same omniscience through dimensions.
Though tying in other pantheons' sun gods just makes me think back to that tripartite sun god theory and something it raved on about tying Anachrome/Aerie ancient history with Faerun and the general mess of divinity east of the Sea of Fallen Stars. Though that theory focuses more on finding sets of dawn, day, and dusk (or was it another three times of day?) slightly more-so than it focuses on stringing together a bunch of daytime sun gods. |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2022 : 22:49:35
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As far as what I've read states, the Dawn Cataclysm did not have one single date, but rather happened outside of what mortals perceive of time, affecting several specific events over a period of roughly a little over a millennium.
This is why mortals struggle so to date the event.
Personally, I would put Lathander's 'birth' at -439 DR when Amaunator's Temple of Time at Trinity in Netheril started shining bright enough to blind anybody who looked upon it. |
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Edited by - hashimashadoo on 03 Apr 2022 22:59:15 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11692 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2022 : 03:16:37
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One idea does come to mind regarding some of that idea of Lathander doing something involving time.... won't go into extreme detail, but how about this basic idea
We have the "Dawn Cataclysm"... we have the orcgate wars and the death of Ra as the "first known Deicide".... along with the death of a bunch of other Untheric and possibly Mulhorandi gods. We have the original sundering and then the spellplague/second sundering involved the Mulan gods.
We also have the ancient dawn war of the Primordials versus the gods (or Dawn Titans versus Estelar). What if the beings released in the sundering were the mulan gods sent back in time? I mean, lets face it ... Jergal and Nergal as gods of the dead.... Shar and Anshar ..... Tiamat as well Tiamat... Utu could easily act as Lathander... we have the ties between Marduk and Bahamut. I've often thought that the mulan gods may have used dragons in shapechanged forms for their special "manifestations". By that I'm not meaning that the "god" is a dragon necessarily so much as they may have POSSESSED a dragon.... or "ridden" a dragon like a mount.... which comes back to that whole "Primordials and their dragon mounts" story. However, the region is also known for multiple dragons ascending to godhood (the Millenium dragon was on his way, Tchazzar, and many of us have wondered if Assuran of the three thunders wasn't some kind of ascended blue dragon.
In doing this, we possibly bring multiple things together, as I've also wondered if the elven sundering and the original sundering might not have ties as well. It would be really interesting plotline to develop.
With that in mind, when the mulhorandi manifestations disappear after the time of troubles.... might that have involved some time travel?
Could really be interesting to throw in the idea of tying Kozah/Talos/Bhaelros and the primordial known as Entropy/Pandorym as well as an enemy of the gods.... possibly sent back in time as well and gaining a godly form after swallowing many "gods".... even moreso when Entropy suddenly begins acting as a servant of a goddess of evil dragons (Tiamat) after the ToT.
Makes me wonder if the dragons near Unther might not all have some form of divine blood in them. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 08 Apr 2022 03:25:08 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2022 : 03:31:10
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I prefer my dragon gods untouched, thank you. Leave your human gods to the scaleless ones. ;P
More seriously, though, Fizban's treats all dragon gods, with the exception of Bahamut and Tiamat (and perhaps Io), as ascended dragons (or greatwyrms). It also treats Bahamut and Tiamat as ontologically diferent to the other gods. So, dragons with divinity is just... something inherent in them.
As for the other things, I dunno. I like the idea that the Untheric and Mulhorandi gods are proper gods, and not "gods" created by the will of the people. They were summoned from other worlds, not created by the will of the inhabitants of the Realms. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 08 Apr 2022 03:37:50 |
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EricMinde
Seeker
Canada
97 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2022 : 17:19:50
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It's interesting that Sleyvas brought up Entropy as being involved with the creation of Lathander. One of the footnotes I managed to dig up was the Sphere of Anhilation: Entropy. The story was fragmented but had something to do with a family torturing a wizard, a miniscule sphere appeared on their sacrificial altar and gobbled the tortured wizard. So the family began praying to the sphere. Tiamat senses this devotion and made that sphere one of her avatars to suck in all that juicy, juicy worship power. Eventually having the sphere 'birth' a bunch of smaller spheres so everyone in that twisted family could have one.
I don't remember how I got from tracking Lathander's creation to Entropy but I feel it was when I was going back to the original source material and combing through it and cross referencing it with other just as old texts.
I don't believe I found any direct linkages or I'd have written it down but I feel it is connected in some way. |
"When you understand the impossible, it changes to improbable and that means there's a chance!"
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Edited by - EricMinde on 08 Apr 2022 17:22:26 |
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Lathanders creation
