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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Feb 2022 : 22:50:11
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I was asked the following question in the comments section of DMsGuild recently...
quote:
Do Pluma and Hishna use Mystra's weave, or do they use something else? I made an NPC wizard for my campaign that originally learned Faerunian wizardry before moving to Maztica and becoming a Plumacaster and I want to know how he would describe the differences between the two styles of magic.
My response was ...
quote:
believe I read somewhere (perhaps in one of Ed Greenwood's tweets or on Candlekeep.com) that all magic in Realmspace flows through the Weave, so I would assume yes. Pluma and hishna taps the magic of feathers and talons/fangs/claws respectively, but I'd assume that magic is also itself, Weave magic. Maztica (the goddess) "invented" pluma, passing it on to her son Qotal to pass to humans, and Zaltec is responsible for hishna, but that doesn't mean Mystra and her Weave aren't the ultimate source.
Does my reasoning seem correct? I know Ed isn't the biggest Maztica fan in the world, but this similar concept might apply to other forms of magic as well (rune magic, psionics, etc).
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2022 : 23:18:22
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| As I recall Ed has indicated most types of magic uses the Weave, not all magic, because the Weave was easier way to use and cast arcane and divine magic. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2022 : 23:19:37
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| To my personal recollection, Pluma and Hishna don’t use the Weave, being alternate systems set up by their respective gods as a means of tapping into raw magic and the natural energies of the world. That could, however, be wrong; the Weave likely exists also in Maztica, though that doesn’t mean it is always used. Ed has said in the last that alternate systems to the Weave do exist, the Weave just being the most widely known, easily accessed, and most popular. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2443 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2022 : 01:55:08
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According to Ed Greenwood Presents: Elminster's Forgotten Realms, "plume magic" (Pluma, I presume) isn't Weave-based. So, I guess Hishna is also not Weave-based. From page 189:
It is a sometimes fatal mistake to think that all arcane magic is “of the Weave” (or, like the Shadow Weave, built around the Weave). The Realms is and has long been a crossroads for planar travelers, many of whom bring other ways of doing magic to Faerûn. Ancient cultures of the Realms have known plume magic, table magic, true-name magic, and wild magic (as something wizards strove to master, or at least steer), to name just a few. The Weave has failed in the past, and much of the work of the Chosen of Mystra is committed to continuously repairing it and guarding against perils to it, preventing the spread of any damage. Spellcasters have found other ways to work magic—and still do. Magic evolves and progresses through such innovations, down the ages. Magic in the Realms should never be something stripped of mystery, something that everyone can understand and “know all” about. Like the wider Realms, there should always be room for the new to slip in, to challenge—and perhaps to astonish. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2022 : 14:42:57
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This is the eternal question, and you can find quotes in either direction. I have my own reasons (and ones which I think would work heavily for you as well) for saying that the truth of this matter is that NO it doesn't use the weave. Why do I push for this idea? Because then when Maztica goes to Abeir, its people still have their magic. This very much fits with the statements that the "weave" of Abeir is inclined to magic requiring objects as well. In 5e terms, pluma and hishna could be considered more like 5e casting..... the crafted objects become something similar to a spellcasting focus.
So, taking that into account, the storyline I've been kind of "pushing" is that in Abeir, the magics of these other cultures had been being studied by the Thayan immigrants (i.e. people who were fed up with a civil war going on for 10 years, having no reason to return to their homes that were burned down, etc... ) and this somewhat helps them adapt their weave magics quicker when they transfer. Secondarily, they begin creating something akin to "weave anchors" to generate ley lines to use the weave across the areas where they live in Abeir (but to be clear, they don't really "know" what they're doing.... they're receiving visions from the gods of magic and following up on them). This makes it so that initially they can protect their homes... then slowly they can project into surrounding areas.... and they aren't the only ones doing similar things. The big story that runs behind things would be that the gods are directing a larger story in the background and the mortals don't get the full picture of what's going on. They have their bit parts, and an incomplete picture.
In doing this, Mystra's commandment to not kill the red wizards starts to make even more sense, as they may have been a useful key in Abeir to bringing her back to life when Dweomerheart detached from Toril and went to Abeir.
Ostensibly, we could also say that .... for instance, a hishnashaper in Maztica used "the talon from X kaiju-like creature of the past which was instilled with great hishna into a maca that slew a dragon" or something similar to explain away Maztica not being overwhelmed by dragonkind after going to Abeir. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 10 Feb 2022 17:30:04 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2022 : 21:46:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Never liked "alternate" styles of magic that did not utilize the Weave. Kinda invalidates the whole concept and point and need for the Weave in the first place when you have all these alternates.
I would say that Ed disagrees, since he is the one who told us there's non-Weave magic.
Kinda neutral on the topic, myself. I prefer the Weave, but it's interesting to have those alternates. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2385 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2022 : 11:54:20
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Until proven otherwise, it's Weave based.
Since there were no mentions of Pluma/Hishna interactions with "conventional" magic being even slightly abnormal, looks like yes.
It's just built around unusual principles, like Southern Magic. Which is an arcane magic tradition of divine origins, IIRC? Pluma/Hishna may be even further from "baseline" arcane magic.
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
According to Ed Greenwood Presents: Elminster's Forgotten Realms, "plume magic" (Pluma, I presume) isn't Weave-based. So, I guess Hishna is also not Weave-based.
If it was Pluma indeed, why wouldn't both be mentioned? 
quote:
From page 189:
It is a sometimes fatal mistake to think that all arcane magic is �of the Weave� (or, like the Shadow Weave, built around the Weave). The Realms is and has long been a crossroads for planar travelers, many of whom bring other ways of doing magic to Faer�n. Ancient cultures of the Realms have known plume magic, table magic, true-name magic, and wild magic (as something wizards strove to master, or at least steer), to name just a few.
This does look like all mentioned are non-Weave magic, but then wild magic is mentioned too.
Everything pointed at it being Weave based in Realms.  From its spell list being a superset of conventional to being affected by Weave anomalies.
Then again, "Weave or not" may have more than two answers: Wild magic could be partially Weave powered, since it uses mostly-"conventional" magic to meaningfully work with raw magic (this part was explicitly stated, but in the Tome of Magic where it was introduced, not in FR sources).
Also, Ed specified "arcane" here, while generally Weave is necessary for divine magic as well (again, Weave anomalies affect it exactly like arcane): it's more "via the Weave" rather than "of the Weave". Hmm.
Then there are SLA and other innate magic properties. Do certain creatures have SLA because they have innate limited access to the Weave, or they have innate magic and this makes them part of the Weave? A fine distinction, but...
I explicitly asked in Ed's threads about relations of the Weave with dragon magic and quasimagic (i.e. do faerzess effects or mythallar power field run "on top of" the Weave just like active spell effects, or are such "secondary power sources" sufficiently independent to extend into dead magic zones, or something else?), there was no answer on either. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
Edited by - TBeholder on 16 Feb 2022 11:56:27 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2022 : 23:46:36
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
According to Ed Greenwood Presents: Elminster's Forgotten Realms, "plume magic" (Pluma, I presume) isn't Weave-based. So, I guess Hishna is also not Weave-based.
If it was Pluma indeed, why wouldn't both be mentioned?
The entry reads
Ancient cultures of the Realms have known plume magic, table magic, truename magic, and wild magic (as something wizards strove to master, or at least steer), to name just a few. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2385 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2024 : 08:26:55
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At last, we have an answer! From Ed Greenwood from Greenwood's Grotto:
quote:
On the relationship between Maztican magic and the Weave
Q: What I really want to know is the relationship between Maztican magic and the weave. Is maztican magic still channeled through Mystra? Is there an agreement in place between Mystra and Maztican gods? Is she worshiped there in a separate aspect?
A: Pluma and hishna magic aren’t channeled through Mystra. They both operate on the interface between the web of the Weave and the empty space surrounding the flowing tendrils of the Weave (where the Shadow Weave exists as an echo of the Weave). As the Shadow Weave seeks to draw on the Weave’s power, tugging at flowing energies and drinking energy discharges that emanate and ‘boil off,’ they draw energy right through the area that powers all pluma and hisna magic, making them powerful and reliable. Mystra can sense them being used, and in theory cut off particular castings by withdrawing the Weave from a localized area to make that area magically ‘dead,’ but in practise just never bothers; she has bigger fish to fry. (A world-balance-threatening use she could nullify, yes.)
So it taps the Weave reliant structure, but not the Weave directly.
But then, it only goes to 5th level, even with help of other deities.
Of course, this raises the next question: if so, should not these spells have reduced interaction with Weave and Shadow Weave magic, much like Shadow Weave vs. Weave? |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
Edited by - TBeholder on 15 Mar 2024 08:29:11 |
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Pluma/Hisha - Is it Weave Based?
