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Eldacar
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Posted - 08 Nov 2021 :  15:29:29  Show Profile Send Eldacar a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I'm currently running a campaign (5e), and one player is a human eldritch knight. A blacksmith in Goldenfields, the town was attacked and so he picked up his hammer to fight; his "blessing" (he uses an Eberron subrace, the Mark of Making) manifested in the moment, and the subsequent battle was the opening session that brought the party together.

The party is now a ways beyond that and is trekking through a long-abandoned dwarven infested by orcs/undead (mixing the mines of Moria with Dragon Age darkspawn). I have decided one of the treasures will be a dwarven thrower. Which is a hammer and thus fits the "blacksmith" ideology of the player it will be for near-perfectly. Normally only dwarves can attune one, but I can handwave that.

This is what brings me to the core of my question, since I let the dice decide some history via the DMG tables.

"Arcane: This item was created for an ancient order of spellcasters and bears the order's symbol."

Would folk here have suggestions on "ancient" orders of dwarven spellcasters in Faerun (Mystra involvement would be nice as she is the player's patron goddess, but not a deal breaker) that would be good or interesting choices to have created/used such a weapon? I don't know a great deal of in-depth dwarven history.

"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
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The Masked Mage
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Posted - 08 Nov 2021 :  16:38:01  Show Profile Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Do you have Dwarves Deep? I'd start there.
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The Masked Mage
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Posted - 08 Nov 2021 :  16:42:59  Show Profile Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You might also want to try the Dwarves of Rockholme (Mystara) and Dwarven Kingdoms Of Krynn (Dragonlance), which had a Scion (kind of an immortal shape-shifting record keeper) as the Dwarf high mage. There was also an article in Dragon some time in the mid to high 200s.
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

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Posted - 08 Nov 2021 :  16:46:03  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In earlier editions, dwarves were not allowed to be wizards. As a result, Faerunian lore suggested dwarves were not wizards.

Obviously later editions have opened that up significantly. So, how to handle that?

IMC, for the campaign I'm currently writing up, I have come up with an in-game cultural reason why shield dwarves of Delzoun in particular have long eschewed arcane magic and the study of wizardry in particular. It has to do with ancient conflicts with dwarven necromancers that bedeviled early Delzoun.

Given that the "default dwarf" in the Realms is a shield dwarf of Delzounian heritage, this works well.

However, that cultural approbation would not necessarily apply to other dwarven realms. In the Savage North alone, Ammarindar, Haunghdannar, and Gharraghaur would NOT have had a prohibition on the use of arcane magic by the Stout Folk.

As such, I would have your item come from one of those cultural traditions. If the item is sentient, I would have it stem from Xothal in Ammarindar. (See Lost Empires of Faerun.)

--Eric

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 08 Nov 2021 :  22:49:41  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My personal idea draws from Spelljammer references to a lost dwarven homeworld.

I decided there was a dwarven homeworld, with a lot of different clans. Each clan had its specialty; there was one clan that was mostly arcane casters.

Even though there was a lot of mixing between peoples of different clans, other dwarves still regarded the spellcasting ones as being different -- because magic seemed to be an easy substitution for the hard work that dwarves value.

And then something happened. Some dire threat emerged from the lands controlled by the spellcasting dwarves. Maybe demons, maybe a huge orc horde, maybe something else. No one knew where this threat came from, but since it came from the lands of the spellcasting dwarves, they were blamed.

Whatever the threat, the dwarves couldn't stand against it. The spellcasters created great portals, allowing many of the dwarven peoples to escape to other worlds. Many of the spellcasters had been lost when the threat initially arose, and many more were lost in the effort of opening those portals -- and more importantly, closing them afterward.

So the end result was a dwarven diaspora, caused -- in dwarven minds -- by the reckless use of magic.

Between this and the heavy losses suffered by the spellcasting clan, arcane magic use all but disappeared among dwarves. Those survivors of the spellcasting clan intermarried with other clans or died unmarried, and the clan ceased to exist.

But... Every now and again, two dwarves with ancestors from that clan will marry, and one of their offspring will have the potential for arcane magic. It's rare, and even rarer that they embrace it, but it has happened.

Thus we have the pre-3E dwarven aversion to magic and inability to use it, but we also cover the odd references in Realmslore to dwarven wizards.

And published Realmslore doesn't address why the dwarves went from having difficulty to using magic to being able to use it the same as anyone else -- but to my thinking, the Thunder Blessing is the perfect explanation. Moradin realized that his people needed an edge, so he tweaked the potency of that spellcasting dwarven bloodline, creating the possibility of more dwarven arcane casters, and at the same time made sure his priests knew to tell people he was cool with it.

So, on topic, maybe a quirk of fate had a lot of dwarves descended from that spellcasting clan wind up in one place, so they -- almost alone among dwarfkind in the Realms -- had a number of dwarven wizards. And they formed your ancient order.

Also, dwelves. Dwarven-elven crossbreeds are a thing in published Realmslore. They look like (and rules-wise, are considered to be) dwarves, but what if their elven blood gave them a potential for magic that their full-blooded dwarven kin lacked?

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bloodtide_the_red
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Posted - 09 Nov 2021 :  01:46:29  Show Profile  Visit bloodtide_the_red's Homepage Send bloodtide_the_red a Private Message  Reply with Quote
From Lost Empires of Faerun you get:
Xothol
This dwarven college of magic was founded nearly two thousound years ago by King Azkuldar III. Xothol was to be Ammarindar's secret weapon should the Netherese ever turn a conquering eye on the Shield Dwarves. The college was carefully tucked away beneath the southwestern Graypeaks, and its existence was kept secret from most of Ammarindar's population.
The dwarf wizards of Xothol developed new spells and new methods of preperation, all of which were designed to thwart the Netherese arcanists. After Netheril's fall, however, support for Xothol waned. King Tormalk evntually closed the college and ordered it magically sequestered until a time when Ammarindar needed its protection again. the collected lore of Xothol remains untouched to this day.
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Eldacar
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Posted - 09 Nov 2021 :  14:56:13  Show Profile Send Eldacar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

Do you have Dwarves Deep? I'd start there.


I do not, actually, but I can see if a friend of mine does (he has seemingly all of the TSR-era material, though his favourite setting is Birthright rather than Forgotten Realms).

quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd

However, that cultural approbation would not necessarily apply to other dwarven realms. In the Savage North alone, Ammarindar, Haunghdannar, and Gharraghaur would NOT have had a prohibition on the use of arcane magic by the Stout Folk.

As such, I would have your item come from one of those cultural traditions. If the item is sentient, I would have it stem from Xothal in Ammarindar. (See Lost Empires of Faerun.)
quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red

From Lost Empires of Faerun you get:
Xothol
This dwarven college of magic was founded nearly two thousound years ago by King Azkuldar III. Xothol was to be Ammarindar's secret weapon should the Netherese ever turn a conquering eye on the Shield Dwarves. The college was carefully tucked away beneath the southwestern Graypeaks, and its existence was kept secret from most of Ammarindar's population.
The dwarf wizards of Xothol developed new spells and new methods of preperation, all of which were designed to thwart the Netherese arcanists. After Netheril's fall, however, support for Xothol waned. King Tormalk evntually closed the college and ordered it magically sequestered until a time when Ammarindar needed its protection again. the collected lore of Xothol remains untouched to this day.

Thanks very much for these! I'll look into them; Ammarindar and Xothol look the most promising as an option.

Would you consider that various parts of Shanatar, in its heyday, might also have lacked any cultural bias against arcane magic as well? Since Shanatar predates Delzoun, even.

"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster
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TheIriaeban
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Posted - 09 Nov 2021 :  17:17:39  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red

From Lost Empires of Faerun you get:
Xothol
This dwarven college of magic was founded nearly two thousound years ago by King Azkuldar III. Xothol was to be Ammarindar's secret weapon should the Netherese ever turn a conquering eye on the Shield Dwarves. The college was carefully tucked away beneath the southwestern Graypeaks, and its existence was kept secret from most of Ammarindar's population.
The dwarf wizards of Xothol developed new spells and new methods of preperation, all of which were designed to thwart the Netherese arcanists. After Netheril's fall, however, support for Xothol waned. King Tormalk evntually closed the college and ordered it magically sequestered until a time when Ammarindar needed its protection again. the collected lore of Xothol remains untouched to this day.



It could also be that magic changed enough after Karsus' Folly that dwarves were no longer born with the Gift to be able to work with The Art(same thing could have happened with halflings, too). Now, this could have been a choice by Moradin/Yondalla seeing the folly of what the Netherese did and deciding they don't want their peoples to fall into the same trap (could they have caught on to a hint of Jergal's plan?) or just due to the new state of magic.

When magic changed again after the Time of Troubles, it could be that Moradin/Yondalla relented or just the change in magic allowed those races to have The Gift once again. The change would also be why you started seeing sorcerers around 1372 (if a sorcerer's abilities first manifest around puberty, then the 14 years between 2e Realms (1358) and 3e Realms (1372) sounds about right for the "sudden" appearance of human sorcerers.)

Edit: fixed typo

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Edited by - TheIriaeban on 09 Nov 2021 17:19:51
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ericlboyd
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Posted - 09 Nov 2021 :  17:20:01  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar

Would you consider that various parts of Shanatar, in its heyday, might also have lacked any cultural bias against arcane magic as well? Since Shanatar predates Delzoun, even.



Yes, in the campaign I'm currently writing with George, the ONLY dwarves with the cultural bias against arcane magic are the heirs of Delzoun. Shanatar, which predated Delzoun, did not share that belief.

Look at the Vorn Forest write-up in Silver Marches.

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Edited by - ericlboyd on 09 Nov 2021 17:21:00
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bloodtide_the_red
Learned Scribe

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Posted - 10 Nov 2021 :  01:49:47  Show Profile  Visit bloodtide_the_red's Homepage Send bloodtide_the_red a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar

Would you consider that various parts of Shanatar, in its heyday, might also have lacked any cultural bias against arcane magic as well? Since Shanatar predates Delzoun, even.



Yes.

Also note the Realms are huge and most dwarf lore is focused on the North, Sword Coast and Empires of the Sands area. So huge sections of the world have little or no dwarf lore. You can drop in a hidden dwarf kingdom in lots of places.

Besilmer is the long forgotten dwarf kingdom from like 5000 years ago.

Ascore is a fun one....a dwarven city that had stone ships that sailed the sea. .....
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Storyteller Hero
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Posted - 12 Nov 2021 :  20:32:22  Show Profile  Visit Storyteller Hero's Homepage Send Storyteller Hero a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Church of Thautum would have a good number of dwarven mages in its organization. Conjuring earth elementals would probably be one of their fortés.

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Thautam



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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 12 Nov 2021 :  21:26:53  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero

The Church of Thautum would have a good number of dwarven mages in its organization. Conjuring earth elementals would probably be one of their fortés.

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Thautam






No wonder I'm not familiar with him... The books he's in, I don't have.

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sleyvas
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Posted - 13 Nov 2021 :  14:44:59  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero

The Church of Thautum would have a good number of dwarven mages in its organization. Conjuring earth elementals would probably be one of their fortés.

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Thautam






No wonder I'm not familiar with him... The books he's in, I don't have.



He's also never been explicitly linked to the realms, though I don't see a problem with having him. I quite like the idea of racial pantheons having a few extra members.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 13 Nov 2021 :  20:31:06  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm not entirely adverse to expanding racial pantheons, but at the same time, it's not something I am eager to do... It depends, in part, on the source. If it had been a Realms book or maybe even the 2E The Complete Book of Dwarves, that'd be one thing. A random article in Dragon from someone I've never heard of or those "let's just slap some stuff together to sell more books!" Races of Whatever books? Nope, not having it. (Especially since pantheons reflect the culture of their worshipers; if something isn't covered by an existing member of the pantheon, it's likely not important to the culture)

Besides, we have the perfect candidate among the dwarven pantheon, already, for a deity of magic: Dugmaren Brightmantle.

In 2E, when dwarves could not practice arcane magic per the PHB, his portfolios were (per Demihuman Deities) scholarship, invention, and discovery.

Page 57 of that book notes that "His worshipers are consumed with the acquiring of knowledge simply for its own sake rather than for any practical purpose."

But the real kicker is on page 58 (emphasis mine):

quote:

The secrets of the world are waiting to be revealed. Travel widely, broaden your mind at every opportunity, and pursue the life of a scholar. Cultivate the spirit of inquiry among the young and be a teacher to all. Seek to recover the lost and/or arcane knowledge of ages past and apply it in the world of today. Try new methods of doing things just for the joy of experimenting. Learn a little of everything, for you never know what might be of use down the road.


So without going to a generic source, we've got established Realmslore saying a particular dwarven deity has an interest in magic. Given that and his portfolios, it's not a stretch to put him as the deity of dwarven wizards.


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LordofBones
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Posted - 13 Nov 2021 :  23:46:29  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The noble art of beardomancy is being rediscovered, I see.
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sleyvas
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Posted - 14 Nov 2021 :  12:55:30  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I'm not entirely adverse to expanding racial pantheons, but at the same time, it's not something I am eager to do... It depends, in part, on the source. If it had been a Realms book or maybe even the 2E The Complete Book of Dwarves, that'd be one thing. A random article in Dragon from someone I've never heard of or those "let's just slap some stuff together to sell more books!" Races of Whatever books? Nope, not having it. (Especially since pantheons reflect the culture of their worshipers; if something isn't covered by an existing member of the pantheon, it's likely not important to the culture). Now Alviss' petrified body floats in the astral, and the gods of the Mordinsamman are careful about trusting the gods of the Metahel (who are a post-Ragnarok norse pantheon with Odin dead and a lot of twists on the classic norse story of Ragnarok, such as Loki <aka Valigor the Runtborn Giant... or Valigan Thirdborn> was working with the gods to lure the enemy into a trap).

Besides, we have the perfect candidate among the dwarven pantheon, already, for a deity of magic: Dugmaren Brightmantle.

In 2E, when dwarves could not practice arcane magic per the PHB, his portfolios were (per Demihuman Deities) scholarship, invention, and discovery.

Page 57 of that book notes that "His worshipers are consumed with the acquiring of knowledge simply for its own sake rather than for any practical purpose."

But the real kicker is on page 58 (emphasis mine):

quote:

The secrets of the world are waiting to be revealed. Travel widely, broaden your mind at every opportunity, and pursue the life of a scholar. Cultivate the spirit of inquiry among the young and be a teacher to all. Seek to recover the lost and/or arcane knowledge of ages past and apply it in the world of today. Try new methods of doing things just for the joy of experimenting. Learn a little of everything, for you never know what might be of use down the road.


So without going to a generic source, we've got established Realmslore saying a particular dwarven deity has an interest in magic. Given that and his portfolios, it's not a stretch to put him as the deity of dwarven wizards.





Not necessarily something to include in FR, but it might be of interest to some (and it is something I stuck in my metahel pantheon)... in the norse pantheon, Thor has a daughter named Thrud and a dwarven god (Alviss) requests her hand. Alviss is a god of knowledge and runes. In order to "Prove he's worthy" they devise a strategy that they will allow the marriage if he answers all their questions. So, they ask him questions until the sun rises, and it turns him to stone. My personal adapatation for the metahel was that Alviss was asked to reveal his knowledge of runes in order to prove he was worthy by Thoordra Thorosdottir, and he did so in order to get her hand, which she freely gave, but giving up all his knowledge was seen as the move of a fool and thus proving himself unworthy in the eyes of Thoordra's father, and thus he killed Alviss (yeah, my Thoros is CN and not necessarily the most well intentioned or fair).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 14 Nov 2021 12:59:30
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 14 Nov 2021 :  15:23:26  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You know... I now find myself wondering what was the philosophy behind saying dwarves couldn't be mages... Sure, I know the class restrictions and level limits and all that was to make humans more appealing, but given that dwarves -- even in D&D -- have a long history of producing magical weapons and armor, then it doesn't make sense to say they can't use magic.

If anything, dwarven rogues were the ones that seemed off, to me.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 14 Nov 2021 15:23:58
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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 14 Nov 2021 :  16:01:32  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Rune casters is the answer for the dwarves.

Weave magic is not the only magic around.

Dwarves did not have a cultural or historical link to the weave (unlike humans and elves) so they had likely explored other methods before discovering the weave, and there association with giants (who also do rune casting) makes it likely that dwarves who could use magic did runecasting instead of wizardry and that runecasters made magic items.

Rune casters must (since it doesnt use the weave) imbue raw magic into their runes and these runes likewise imbue magic properties upon whatever it is carved. The runes can also be broken to unleash the raw magic.

Rune casters etch the runes on weapons and armour and make then magical.

Dwarves are all about tradition, it is likely this devotion to tradition is what kept them away from weave use for so long.

Elves somehow managed to link their entire race to the weave to make them better at it and (this last part is my supposition) to allow then to use their elven high magic rituals through the weave).

Humans of course were influenced by outside forces to using the weave early on when netheril was introduced to it and then Netherils fall spread that knowledge all the way up and down the sword coast and the inner sea. If George's work is correct a similar thing happened in imaskar and the fall of that nation spread weave use to the hordelands, karatur, mulhorand, unther, and then onto shaar and the shining south and unapproachable east etc.

But dwarves were around before humans and learned from the giants and stuck with that until ammarindar.

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Delnyn
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Posted - 14 Nov 2021 :  17:05:16  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

You know... I now find myself wondering what was the philosophy behind saying dwarves couldn't be mages... Sure, I know the class restrictions and level limits and all that was to make humans more appealing, but given that dwarves -- even in D&D -- have a long history of producing magical weapons and armor, then it doesn't make sense to say they can't use magic.

If anything, dwarven rogues were the ones that seemed off, to me.



Aside from the issue of making humans more appealing, I would claim AD&D put spellcasters -especially magic-users- in "hard mode" of play. They took days to replenish cast spells and could often be one-shotted. A dwarf would at least partially offset the key drawback of squishiness for magic-users.

I got the impression that AD&D dwarven rogues were intended to be outcasts from their clans.
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bloodtide_the_red
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Posted - 15 Nov 2021 :  00:33:12  Show Profile  Visit bloodtide_the_red's Homepage Send bloodtide_the_red a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
I got the impression that AD&D dwarven rogues were intended to be outcasts from their clans.



In general, a rogue or thief is an outcast from a clan, family or society. Most D&D lore said something like few dwarf rogues lives in dwarven cities and instead went to other, more mixed race cities.

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LordofBones
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Posted - 15 Nov 2021 :  11:14:54  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Rogues cover too wide a variety of archetypes to really be pigeon-holed. A dwarven explosives expert, trapsmith, archeologist or investigator is different from an assassin or thief, but both fall under the rogue umbrella.
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 15 Nov 2021 :  16:25:26  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Rogues cover too wide a variety of archetypes to really be pigeon-holed. A dwarven explosives expert, trapsmith, archeologist or investigator is different from an assassin or thief, but both fall under the rogue umbrella.



2E didn't have those things. For 2E rogues, you were a bard or a thief. And for dwarves, it was *explicitly* limited to thieves (page 27 of the revised, green cover 2E PHB):

"A character of the dwarven race can be a cleric, a fighter, or a thief. He can also choose to be a fighter/cleric or fighter/thief."

Given that it also discusses their love of hard work and fighting, thief is an odd choice - thieves are not known for hard work and are in fact known for profiting from the work of others.

I can see a dwarf being an explosives expert, trapsmith, archeologist, or investigator, but none of those are supported in 2E.

You could do a trapsmith, but that's only if the thief maxes out that skill at the expense of the other thieving abilities. Given the rules prohibited putting more than half of the points gained at leveling up into a single skill, not including stat bonuses, a 2E thief couldn't max out Find/Remove Traps until 5th level. (2E didn't really have a setting traps skill for thieves, but I'd allow F/RT to cover it)

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 15 Nov 2021 19:03:00
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deserk
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Posted - 15 Nov 2021 :  16:57:55  Show Profile Send deserk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I'm not entirely adverse to expanding racial pantheons, but at the same time, it's not something I am eager to do... It depends, in part, on the source. If it had been a Realms book or maybe even the 2E The Complete Book of Dwarves, that'd be one thing. A random article in Dragon from someone I've never heard of or those "let's just slap some stuff together to sell more books!" Races of Whatever books? Nope, not having it. (Especially since pantheons reflect the culture of their worshipers; if something isn't covered by an existing member of the pantheon, it's likely not important to the culture)


Thautum was also referenced in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes.

I don't see why there couldn't be more racial deities than otherwise known. Certain regions of the Realms might have different racial pantheons than what is typically represented, or their pantheon might be structured differently (similar to how the Greek deity Ares is an impulsive and destructive god of war, whereas the Roman deity Mars is an honourable, stabilizing and guardian-like god of war). Faerun is vast, but Realms books have generally focused heavily on North and the Western Heartlands (especially in this current 5E era) at the expense of the rest of the continent. Why would every dwarven realm in Faerun, like those in the far away Great Rift (and the Deep Realm) or Siremum in it have the exact same religious interpretations, views or mythology as those dwarves descended of Delzoun or Shanatar?

Also given that elves and dwarves used to be much more prominent in the ancient ages of Faerun, it could be likely that they had a much more expansive religious pantheon, and that there are some elvish or dwarven demipowers that could have been forgotten in the current age or reduced to such a small following that many other current living elves or dwarves are not aware of the existence of said demipowers.

Edited by - deserk on 15 Nov 2021 17:04:39
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 15 Nov 2021 :  19:01:27  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I said I'm not adverse to expanding racial pantheons; I'm just not going to accept all deities from all sources.

And as I said, we've already got a strong candidate for a deity for dwarven magic use, without having to import some generic "hey, let's fill a slot that may or may not even exist in this culture!" deity.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 15 Nov 2021 19:06:04
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deserk
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Posted - 15 Nov 2021 :  19:38:40  Show Profile Send deserk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I said I'm not adverse to expanding racial pantheons; I'm just not going to accept all deities from all sources.

And as I said, we've already got a strong candidate for a deity for dwarven magic use, without having to import some generic "hey, let's fill a slot that may or may not even exist in this culture!" deity.


But he isn't really a particularly strong candidate for magic use. Dugmaren Brightmantle is more like Oghma (scholarship) and Gond (invention), than he is like Mystra. He isn't someone whom explicitly advocates the use of arcane magic.

That snippet you quoted "Seek to recover the lost and/or arcane knowledge of ages past and apply it in the world of today." is about the only little thing that could remotely even hint of promoting wizardry. It could just as easily mean encouraging his followers to seek arcane (as in something mysterious and yet unknown, the literal meaning of the word) knowledge, not necessarily arcane magic. Which would make more sense, given the full context of everything else written about him in Demihuman Deities.

Edited by - deserk on 15 Nov 2021 19:40:15
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 15 Nov 2021 :  20:11:29  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by deserk

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I said I'm not adverse to expanding racial pantheons; I'm just not going to accept all deities from all sources.

And as I said, we've already got a strong candidate for a deity for dwarven magic use, without having to import some generic "hey, let's fill a slot that may or may not even exist in this culture!" deity.


But he isn't really a particularly strong candidate for magic use. Dugmaren Brightmantle is more like Oghma (scholarship) and Gond (invention), than he is like Mystra. He isn't someone whom explicitly advocates the use of arcane magic.

That snippet you quoted "Seek to recover the lost and/or arcane knowledge of ages past and apply it in the world of today." is about the only little thing that could remotely even hint of promoting wizardry. It could just as easily mean encouraging his followers to seek arcane (as in something mysterious and yet unknown, the literal meaning of the word) knowledge, not necessarily arcane magic. Which would make more sense, given the full context of everything else written about him in Demihuman Deities.



That was written in 2E, when dwarves couldn't use arcane magic, as I already noted. Dwarven wizards were not possible, per core rules, until 3E.

And in D&D, "arcane" has always referred to magic -- specifically, wizardly magic. The word "arcane" was used as a deliberate reference to magic.

Rather than import someone's spur of the moment bit of filler from a supplemental core book, I'm going to look at the deity that per published Realmslore already has an interest in magic and expand his portfolios just a hair.

Besides, the Mordenkainen book doesn't give Thautum the magic portfolio, anyway. And there is absolutely nothing connecting Thautum to the Realms.

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deserk
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Posted - 15 Nov 2021 :  20:32:34  Show Profile Send deserk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, as to whether it referred to literally arcane magic in that instance, I guess only Eric L. Boyd can answer, since he wrote the book.

But honestly each to his own. I quite relish those supplemental books of the 3E era myself and would welcome seeing some of those deities, monsters and races adapted to the Realms.

Goliaths and Dragonborn also had their origins in those books (Races of Stone, Races of the Dragon respectively), and they have frequently appeared in 5E FR adventure books. Also, Tharmekhûl (another dwarf deity from Races of Stone, same as Thautam) was mentioned in Waterdeep: Dungeon of the Mad Mage, as being worshipped by clan Melairkyn.

And technically a lot of the demihuman and monster deities (Corellon, Gruumsh, Moradin, etc.) are not the creations of Ed or other FR designers but rather had their origins in the Deities and Demigods (1980) book which is also a general D&D supplemental book. But those deities were eventually adapted to the Realms. I can't help but wonder what the Forgotten Realms was like before this, or what the religion of the elves, dwarves, etc. was like (perhaps they just worshipped the standard FR pantheon, for example Selune for elves or Tyr for dwarves?).

Edited by - deserk on 15 Nov 2021 20:39:29
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 15 Nov 2021 :  22:20:13  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by deserk

Well, as to whether it referred to literally arcane magic in that instance, I guess only Eric L. Boyd can answer, since he wrote the book.

But honestly each to his own. I quite relish those supplemental books of the 3E era myself and would welcome seeing some of those deities, monsters and races adapted to the Realms.

Goliaths and Dragonborn also had their origins in those books (Races of Stone, Races of the Dragon respectively), and they have frequently appeared in 5E FR adventure books. Also, Tharmekhûl (another dwarf deity from Races of Stone, same as Thautam) was mentioned in Waterdeep: Dungeon of the Mad Mage, as being worshipped by clan Melairkyn.

And technically a lot of the demihuman and monster deities (Corellon, Gruumsh, Moradin, etc.) are not the creations of Ed or other FR designers but rather had their origins in the Deities and Demigods (1980) book which is also a general D&D supplemental book. But those deities were eventually adapted to the Realms. I can't help but wonder what the Forgotten Realms was like before this, or what the religion of the elves, dwarves, etc. was like (perhaps they just worshipped the standard FR pantheon, for example Selune for elves or Tyr for dwarves?).



Actually, the dragonborn of 3E and the dragonborn of 4E/5E are not at all related. It was another unfortunate example of WotC saying "hey, let's ignore what we've already done here, and just do something entirely different!" The 3E dragonborn were originally elves and humans and other PC races that chose to be reborn in a more draconic form.

As for Waterdeep: Dungeon of the Mad Mage... Well, let's just say that when it comes to Undermountain, this is another source that ignores prior lore and changes something existing into something it's not. What they did with Jhesiyra Kestellharp, in particular, is just painful.

When the Realms was first published, the default stance for non-human deities was the existing ones were the ones in the Realms. They're in the OGB, and in the old "Down to Earth Divinity" article, Ed says "All nonhumans’ deities, plus Thrym and Surtur of the Norse mythos, from the DDG, have been adopted." The article specifically references Rillifane Rallathil and Lolth. The original DDG didn't give much coverage to the dwarven pantheon; I believe it was Monster Mythology that filled that one out, and that book has been sort of the default for gods not covered elsewhere, at least until those Races of Whatever books came out.

And again, I want to make it clear, I'm not adverse to bringing in deities, when appropriate. But there has to be an entirely empty space to be filled, a need to fill that space, and a good candidate for that space. I'd not bring in a dwarven god of knock-knock jokes, because there's no need for one. The god of cups and saucers that Ilsensine wryly commented on is also entirely unnecessary.

Dwarves didn't need a god of magic when their pantheon was laid out because they couldn't use arcane magic -- that god would have been as relevant as a god of knock-knock jokes.

In later editions, with dwarves able to use magic, then it makes sense for them to have a deity of magic. If it wasn't for Dugmaren Brightmantle, I'd've tapped Dumathoin for the role, as the Keeper of Secrets Under the Mountain.

But for Dugmaren, we've got that reference in Demihuman Deities and another I just found, from Monster Mythology (page 18): "There are very few cases of dwarven deities governing the sea, plant life and agriculture, atmospheric phenomena (rain, clouds, stars, etc.), woodlands and forests, animals, comedy and pleasure, or arcane and mystical knowledge (Dugmaren Brightmantle is unique on this score)." His write-up on page 29 also says "Recovery of lost and/or arcane knowledge is a prime task."

Even if you discount those references, many mages are all about discovery and experimentation, and that is still covered by Dugmaren. Sure, those things are covered in other pantheons by deities not associated with magic, but that doesn't change how good of a fit it is.

Thautum is simply redundant, in addition to not being established in Realmslore. Tharmekhûl seems to be just a space filler, though I think he'd be a better fit if the focus was on fire being used to strengthen and purify things, rather than "Moradin's toady who does these things on the side."

Honestly, if I was going to import any of the Races of Stone deities into the dwarven pantheon, it'd be Hanseath. Brewing, drinking, and singing are big deals to the dwarves, so it's an odd omission from their established pantheon.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 15 Nov 2021 22:56:03
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George Krashos
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Posted - 16 Nov 2021 :  07:06:21  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ed has confirmed on Twitter that Hanseath is part of the FR dwarven pantheon. And as Eric noted above, not all dwarves were necessarily anti-magic. It might well be that worship of Thautum and Tharmekhûl has fallen away and languishes in small, isolated holds and shrines. The Realms has room for all - as long as you do it right.

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sleyvas
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Posted - 16 Nov 2021 :  13:33:03  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Going back to what I was discussing previously, about incorporating some Norse Lore in an unusual way... it COULD be that the dwarves at one point did have a much more proactive god of knowledge and magic prior to Dugmaren Brightmantle. Perhaps he was killed off, and there was some kind of backlash (literal) of a magical form within dwarven society. Now that could be the aforementioned Alviss, a dwarven god of runic knowledge, or it could be a more traditional dwarven deity (i.e. the derro god who is confined to a throne that may have links to the far realm). It could be something where the dwarven ties to their wards, which were tied to the god of runes, led to some bleed over of insanity into the minds of dwarven mages. This might have led to the distrust of magic that we see now. It also might not have been insanity, but rather actions like wild magic resulting from the death of the gods, which would also lead to distrust (because dwarves like things that happen consistently). It may also be that Dugmaren got some of his portfolios because he's tried to carry what Alviss did before he was killed, but he lacks some of what Alviss knew (perhaps because other deities somehow stole the knowledge before killing him).

I especially stress this with the idea of this topic of "an ancient dwarven spellcaster order".... so it doesn't mean that the spellcaster order is currently active. This can lead off to a storyline within a campaign where perhaps dwarves are extremely interested in this weapon not for its abilities, but because it hints to a history that's been lost to them. It might open up the "rediscovery" of lost lore or some lost kingdom, etc..

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 16 Nov 2021 14:03:01
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sleyvas
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Posted - 16 Nov 2021 :  13:59:27  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Ed has confirmed on Twitter that Hanseath is part of the FR dwarven pantheon. And as Eric noted above, not all dwarves were necessarily anti-magic. It might well be that worship of Thautum and Tharmekhûl has fallen away and languishes in small, isolated holds and shrines. The Realms has room for all - as long as you do it right.

-- George Krashos



I could definitely see some Azerblood dwarves worshipping Tharmekhûl, and since Eric gave them a region in the realms, I see that as a good addition

From Dragon 350: Legacies of Ancient Empires

Azerbloods are most common in the Small Teeth mountains of western Amn, as most are members of the remnants of Clan Azerkyn, which once ruled the southern caverns of the Adamant Kingdom of Xothaerin. Individual azerbloods can also be found in shield dwarf clans dwelling in the mountain ranges that lie near the Lake of Steam.

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Xothaerin

I could see Shanatar also being a place where Thautum might have also been worshipped.

It should be noted that Dugmaren Brightmantle fills a role as a god of knowledge and "spellcasters". Thautum is more a god of "making magic weapons and armor". He's a crafting god. In this way, I would probably present Dugmaren as a god embraced by wizards, but Thautum would be embraced by artificers (who tend to be inclined to melee than traditional wizards in current rulesets). Thautum would be a great god for artificer armorers and battlesmiths.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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