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sleyvas
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Posted - 31 Oct 2021 :  23:50:07  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
So, yesterday we had a slight reveal from Ed of another continent name via tweet. The relevant points I'll cut out just for discussions sake to quickly get things started. The reason for this thread is essentially "what should we do with it" and "what can we twist with it" and "do we even like it" and "is there a better way to use it" and "do we want to to a significant degree change the data we have in the FR interactive Atlas". Also, what other continent names do we have? Finally, we also get the part where Ed once again complains that TSR made Anchorome into a continent instead of a collection of islands.

So, first off, the relevant points

Velsaertirden was a steel dragon who hatched in a clutch of eggs in Steelspires, a castle built by stone giants for his parents on a bare rock ridge that towered over the busy human port city of Haunvaerune, on the continent of Arandron far to the southwest of Faerûn.

and then we have this in regard to a question about Aranddron's placement showing the scholar's guide to Toril and asking if it's the place directly south of Faerun that's closest to the southern pole.

Rule of thumb: trust no map that has Anchorôme as a continent, or Osse as a big continent.

First things first.... what "continent" names do we know of? Assuming of course that these are all continent names and not "vast regions of a continent". There's
Aurune
Katashaka
Osse
Maztica with a peninsula below it called Lopango
a place above Maztica which Faerunians seem to have named Anchorome after the discovery of Maztica (based on the information in TSR's City of Gold)
Arandron
From Al-Qadim there was also a mysterious "place" called Akota to its west.


Second, obviously continents can have 500 names. Some may be relevant at certain times/eras. Some might be relevant to certain cultures. So, one person's Katashaka or Osse might be called something else my someone else.

So, for instance, what "modern Faerunians" call Anchorome and what "others" called Anchorome might be two separate things due to misunderstandings (kind of like the "story" of how there are human tribes known as Tabaxi in Chult and cat folk known as Tabaxi in Maztica and even other worlds).

I will also add, because someone will say it, "who cares none of its canon, just do what you want"....

So, let's start

"Should we significantly change the layout of the world from that presented in the FR Interactive Atlas?"

My answer to this. No. You might change the layout or shape of small islands. You might add Laerakond to the world rather than "sending it back", since its detailed. My reasoning would be that we have it, and noone's putting out anything better. Until something better comes out, why change it. Most of it is unnamed, so we just need to name things.

"Where is this Arandron?"

Well, in my view, we have two places to choose from. The first is the one near to Nimbral that's directly south of Maztica/Lopango that most of us have called "Katashaka". The second is the one SE of Kara-Tur that people have called "Osse". So, since we're told that "Osse isn't a large continent", then perhaps THAT place is Arandron?

"Why do we believe Osse is a continent?"

I'm throwing this out... what do we have that makes us think Osse couldn't be just a large region on a continent?

There's probably 500 questions this can lead to, and Ed didn't really reveal much of anything (except these dragons in Arandron were possibly extremely long lived).... so at this point, just opening the floor to speculation.

From the recent tweet below to show the whole thread

On Velsaert, the Dragon Sage of Baldur's Gate and the continent of Arandron

https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1453869491692228609
https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1453872532407398406
https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1454564012142862339

Oct 29 2021

@TheBadCatMan

Hi @TheEdVerse! I'm curious about Velsaert, the Dragon Sage of Baldur's Gate quoted in a lot of the Wyrms of the North articles. What's his story? Was he always secretly a steel dragon? Are the other great dragons of the North really just avoiding him?

@TheEdVerse

Velsaertirden was a steel dragon who hatched in a clutch of eggs in Steelspires, a castle built by stone giants for his parents on a bare rock ridge that towered over the busy human port city of Haunvaerune, on the continent of Arandron far to the southwest of Faerûn.

It was his mother Malavauvra’s (Malavauvrantarandra’s) last clutch of eggs, for she was ancient and ailing. Most of Velsaertirden’s siblings were sickly and died soon after hatching, or during their first year of existence. The exceptions were his ruthless, rapacious sister Rauvrahreene (Rauvrahrileenatandrar), and his brother Torthal (Torthalindrarron).

The three wyrmlings soon became dragonets (learning to take human form, and shift with ease between human and dragon form), and reacted in very different ways to the bustling human city their dying mother encouraged them to explore: Torthal was repelled by humans and wanted nothing to do with them, or cities, or crowding of any sort; Rauvrahreene saw them as cattle, pawns, and playthings to be manipulated, devoured, and otherwise expended at will to further her needs to dominate, cow lesser beings, and further her plans; and Velsaert saw them as dangerous but fascinating sources of ongoing entertainment, to be studied and befriended and worked with to see what they’d do and achieve.

Velsaert’s father Phaudron (Phaudrantanthildrar) was a withdrawn, singleminded sort of dragon who traveled widely to explore and find rare substances to use as material components in arcane magics he was devising and endlessly experimenting with.

His passion was magics intended to prolong draconic life and vigor indefinitely, without lichdom or other necromantic means, for most dragons who survive for many years love life and want to cling to it, and seek longevity by various means.

While her father was away on one of his expeditions to gain a rare ingredient, Rauvrahreene found some of his written records of his magical experimentations.

She copied them, went to a lair of her own she’d established elsewhere, and conducted her own spellcastings and experiments, successfully learning how to reverse Phaudron’s spells. Then she returned to Steelspires, and when her father returned, weary and unsuccessful, she covertly cast his reversed spells on him, killing him.

Emboldened, she sought out her weak, slumbering mother, and slew her the same way. The castle was now hers.

However, Torthal unexpectedly returned to Steelspires to consult his father, and found his sister fortifying the place with dragonslaying traps. One of which sorely wounded him (he discovered the traps the hard way). Rauvrahreene gloated openly over the mortally wounded Torthal—and was overheard doing so by Velsaert, making his own return visit to the castle. Outraged that he’d lost his parents, Velsaert attacked, and when the battle was done, Torthal had been blasted apart and Rauvrahreene, wounded, had fled.

Lost in grief, Velsaert decided he never wants to dwell in the castle. He searched it, and used all the magic he knew to subvert and reset the traps so if Rauvrahreene returned, they’d likely harm her. Then Velsaert took human form and went down into Haunvaerune.

Where as soon as he could, he took passage on a farsailing ship, that would call at “strange and distant ports.”

In this case, that meant Sambar, in Lantan (unbeknownst to wider Faerûn, the Lantanna traded their lesser invented devices with many farflung folk, to gain goods rare or hard to find). From there, Velsaert found his way to mainland Faerûn, where he traveled for over five centuries in various human guises, seeing much of different cultures.

As he grew older, he increasingly sided with the aims and doings of the Harpers of Twilight Hall, and joined them while posing as the human ranger Vontur of Zazesspur.

During his sixty-odd years as Vontur, he came across several tantalizing mentions of a dragon who MIGHT be his sister Rauvrahreene, but could never track her down. Velsaert was also increasingly fascinated by the magic-spreading role of the Chosen of Mystra, and watched their doings—and so, in return, was watched by them.

Eventually, Vontur was cornered in a perish-or-call-on-draconic-powers situation, so Vontur “died” and the dragon that slew him and his foes flew away…and a young woman by the name of Shalant Mornwind, hailing from Athkatla, joined the Harpers. An eager volunteer daunted by nothing and avoiding no unpleasant task nor company, she rose in the regard of senior Harpers, and gained an ever-larger role as a trusted and capable adventurer, active all over western Faerûn, until, in an undercover operation in the Sembian city of Selgaunt, she discovered that the secret of the success of the wealthy local Sembian family hight House Morarshar was due to their matriarch, Lady Ambrele, being the human guise of Velsaert’s sister Rauvrahreene.

Velsaert attacked, and in the battle that followed, Morarshar Hall was torn apart, the family and their staff died bloodily, several surrounding buildings were shattered and hurled down, Rauvragrene was maimed and forced to flee to another plane of existence, and Shalant Mornwind “died.”

In truth, Velsaert was aged three centuries by spells cast by Rauvrahreene to try to kill him, and left saddened by the deaths of his Harper adventuring colleagues and the destruction of so much of what had been a luxurious street in downtown Selgaunt.

So he “retired,” becoming a sage in Baldur’s Gate under the name of Imbryn Velsaert (borrowing the name Imbryn from Imbryn Ultal, the captain of the Aelusteen, the ship that had brought him from Haunvaerune to Sambar). Velsaert dwelt above his small shop in the Temples District (a street above the Helm and Cloak inn), quietly selling information and old books related to magic, and becoming a passive observer of all the bustling human activity around him. Noticing the great extent to which various humans were being manipulated by clergies, cults, cabals, and powerful entities like illithids, beholders, and dragons, he increasingly slipped into human guises to travel and investigate the doings and aims of various dragons and dracoliches active in western Faerûn (notably Laerahkralan, a greatwyrm working with yuan-ti and human agents to covertly influence various ruling courts, from towns and villages up to countries, in the Shining South). He located their principal lairs and watched what he could of their activities, befriending the bronze dragon Nymmurh in particular. During the 1360s and 1370s DR, Velsaert gained a reputation as “the” current expert on the lives and times of the dragons of the Sword Coast. The merchant Andlar Verikho of Tharsult dubbed him the “Dragon Sage,” and this nickname stuck.

After the Dracorage, an ashamed and regretful Velsaert wanted nothing further to do with the Harpers, and foresaw that his profession as a sage specializing in dragons was going to bring endless adventurers (Harpers among them) to his door, so he “retired” again, relocating to the Upper City and later the south side of the river, and then dropping out of sight.

Just in time, it seems, for a force of mages and able-to-pass-as-human creatures he suspects was sent by sister, or someone working for her, descended on his lodgings by night to slay him—and when they couldn’t find Velsaert (who was lying on a nearby rooftop, not his own, observing comets in the night sky) settled for slaughtering many neighbours instead.

Velsaert hunted them for a month thereafter, trying to find whoever they reported to, but after he’d fought and slain several of them, they turned to hunt him again, and he decided to simply disappear into a new human guise, under a new name, elsewhere.

So the greatwyrm Velsaert survives to this day—as, presumably, does his sister Rauvrahreene.

@ilikeit_ruf

Mr. Ed I love how you just drop a new (at least new to me) continent on Toril.

Has Arandron been covered anywhere? Where’s it at?

@TheEdVerse

I don't think it's been covered in print, but has been mentioned in several Milwaukee-era GenCon Realms seminars, by me with staff designers and editors on the panel. It's well SW of Faerûn.

@Razzelmire

Would it be this place that is circled? It’s from a official Scholar View of Toril from the 3rd Edition campaign book.

<image of A Scholar's View of Abeir-Toril: https://twitter.com/Razzelmire/status/1454457990514462730/photo/1>

@TheEdVerse

No. That map's rather fanciful. Notice it doesn't specify WHICH Scholar's view? It's more accurate than some maps, yet is still closer to "Dragonnes Be Herre" than reality.

Rule of thumb: trust no map that has Anchorôme as a continent, or Osse as a big continent.[/i]

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 01 Nov 2021 12:45:19

Lord Karsus
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Posted - 01 Nov 2021 :  00:29:19  Show Profile Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-At the end of the day, that "A Scholar's View of Abeir-Toril" map is the official map (well, pre-Spellplague), so we can't just arbitrarily change it or throw it out. With that said, nothing really meshes well with "far southwest". There might be fits with the Unknown Lands island far to the west (Akota?) and/or the two islands far to the south by Katashaka (one labeled Unknown Lands and the other unlabeled), but I wouldn't consider either of them particularly southwest as much as just south.

-Also, something to keep in mind and I think this might be the case here, if he is not recognizing the validity of that map (as kind of alluded to in his comments), he is using lore that might just be irreconcilable with what we have.

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Zeromaru X
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Posted - 01 Nov 2021 :  03:25:15  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Also, a thing to take into account is that Ed's Realms are different than the published Realms. For instance, Maztica doesn't exist in Ed's Realms. In its place there is Laerakond, as said here:

http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=22659&whichpage=9

quote:
Originally posted by The Edverse
There is no Maztica (or Osse) in the original Realms, but instead: Laerakond, and SE of it/SW of Faerun, there's Thuin, a N/S-long-axis continent with dark-skinned human peoples (many squabbling city-states)



That's why Ed still references Laerakond in its tweets. And you need to add Thuin to your list of FR continents.

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 01 Nov 2021 03:26:02
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The Masked Mage
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Posted - 01 Nov 2021 :  06:53:00  Show Profile Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I would assume it is another name for the Katashaka continent, as it is literally the continent south west of Faerun, or like mentioned earlier, one of the big islands to its east.

I do wonder about the Anchorôme Osse comment, since I think all of the world maps I've seen have both :P I don't anticipate a future official world map in any regard.
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sleyvas
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Posted - 01 Nov 2021 :  11:57:30  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Also, a thing to take into account is that Ed's Realms are different than the published Realms. For instance, Maztica doesn't exist in Ed's Realms. In its place there is Laerakond, as said here:

http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=22659&whichpage=9

quote:
Originally posted by The Edverse
There is no Maztica (or Osse) in the original Realms, but instead: Laerakond, and SE of it/SW of Faerun, there's Thuin, a N/S-long-axis continent with dark-skinned human peoples (many squabbling city-states)



That's why Ed still references Laerakond in its tweets. And you need to add Thuin to your list of FR continents.



Thank you Zero. This makes me glad that in my stuff I've always pushed to keep the continent here but displace it.

That being said, it doesn't work with the story that "it's always been there" if we wanted to stay canon.

So, Thuin as either an additional continent OR an alternative name for one of the others (i.e. some folk may call Katashaka by the name of Thuin from different parts of the continent... maybe even parts that have never met). Or maybe that place I've been calling "East Katashaka" might be Thuin, and mayhaps after it "separated" from Katashaka the survivors renamed it in later generations.

I wish I could find his original quote for Aurune as a continent, because I'd like to have an idea of what it was supposed to be like. I've always assumed cold because the first time I saw the name was on a map by Markustay I think where he showed it up north, and the name Aurune reminds me of Auril.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 01 Nov 2021 12:12:22
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sleyvas
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Posted - 01 Nov 2021 :  12:10:40  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-At the end of the day, that "A Scholar's View of Abeir-Toril" map is the official map (well, pre-Spellplague), so we can't just arbitrarily change it or throw it out. With that said, nothing really meshes well with "far southwest". There might be fits with the Unknown Lands island far to the west (Akota?) and/or the two islands far to the south by Katashaka (one labeled Unknown Lands and the other unlabeled), but I wouldn't consider either of them particularly southwest as much as just south.

-Also, something to keep in mind and I think this might be the case here, if he is not recognizing the validity of that map (as kind of alluded to in his comments), he is using lore that might just be irreconcilable with what we have.



Yeah, that's why I threw out the question of "do we even like it" is the irreconcilable part.

Personally, I like the idea of keeping "Anchorome" as the big continent above Maztica, and if we have to explain away that there were more islands off its coast that were "the Anchorome Isles" and Faerunians just "got it wrong", or that there's some ocean portal that transfers people traversing west from Faerun to appear in the seas around Zakhara .... that works for me.

On Akota, there's some island chains extending west from Zakhara... and the furthest west one (not the ones I've been calling Katashaka and East Katashaka, but just east of that) would be a place big enough to be maybe 1.5 times Nimbral.... seems like a good place to put it... either that or the place that was circled in the tweet mentioned previously.

To add to this whole thing, I find it simply unacceptable that with spelljamming as part of the setting that the people would have no idea of the world's layout. They might try to explain it away with an "illusion covering portions of the world" like they did with the moon, and anything is possible with magic mind you, but if they do that it really cheapens things. They should have maps. They may be a little out of scale or shaped wrongly a bit, but ROUGH layout they should have.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 01 Nov 2021 12:53:39
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tmcvicar2
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Posted - 01 Nov 2021 :  13:38:27  Show Profile Send tmcvicar2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What about these 3 large islands south of Nimbral? This screenshot is from Handsome Robs huge map I believe. I do not know where he pulled them from to include in his map. One is labeled "Numibia", one is the westernmost of the "Farahsahad Islands" and one (the southernmost) is unlabeled.

Screenshot here:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3smz31xhogjahme/Screen%20Shot%202021-11-01%20at%209.28.31%20AM.png?dl=0

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sleyvas
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Posted - 01 Nov 2021 :  14:58:38  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by tmcvicar2

What about these 3 large islands south of Nimbral? This screenshot is from Handsome Robs huge map I believe. I do not know where he pulled them from to include in his map. One is labeled "Numibia", one is the westernmost of the "Farahsahad Islands" and one (the southernmost) is unlabeled.

Screenshot here:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3smz31xhogjahme/Screen%20Shot%202021-11-01%20at%209.28.31%20AM.png?dl=0



Yep, I know of no source for those other than Handsome Rob, so I think he made them up (same with most of the locations in Katashaka that he put). The oone he "named" Numibia is the one that I think most sounds like a possibility for "Thuin" from its description (though its less north south and more NE-SW). The one to the east of that I was thinking about as a possible fit for Akota (or possibly that one to the far south?). I want to look at the al-qadim products to see what it says for Akota.

Think I'm going to maybe do a mockup from FRIA to aid these discussions.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 01 Nov 2021 :  15:27:48  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Easy fix: the map is wrong.

After all, it's labeled "a scholar's view of Abeir-Toril" -- but we don't know what scholar or how much we can trust their cartography skills. And even more importantly, just one page before it, it says "Even the wisest scholars of Candlekeep know only a little of what lies beyond the realms of Faerûn." (Page 230, 3E FRCS)

So the source that gives us that map also gives us reason to question its accuracy.

And real-world history shows that maps were usually inaccurate -- often wildly so -- until regular trade was established. For example, there was an island charted in 1774 and not removed from maps until it was conclusively proven not to exist in 2012. It had been removed from some charts in 1974, but remained on a lot of other maps until 2012. 2012 wasn't that long ago -- and yet, given aviation and satellites and regular trade, we still had a non-existent place on the map.

We have more reason to assume that map is wrong, than we do to assume it's correct.

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sleyvas
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Posted - 01 Nov 2021 :  15:59:57  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Small things.... I get... that's why I mentioned the ideas of islands being differently shaped, or numbers of them overblown, locations slightly off. But large continents I'm expecting to be ROUGHLY right. So, that huge honking land mass above Maztica shouldn't just suddenly be a bunch of islands. We should be able to "roughly" get an idea of what's where, especially with things that are near Faerun.

Also, thanks again to Zeromarux for the reminder of Thuin... and searching I found the information for it. Posting it in this thread just to help the one stop shopping that may come along later

From this thread.
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=22659&whichpage=9

@TheEdVerse
Very well written; thumbs up!
In my original Realms, Chult was a wild jungle, with very few human inhabitants, just the handful genetically immune to local serpent venoms (like the wild dwarves), because the place was dominated by serpent races (see the 3e Serpent Kingdoms tome).

"My" Realms had no dinosaurs, but did have a lot of grown-to-jumbo-size reptilian and other monsters (the wildest land monsters from the D&D books, notably lots of gibbering mouthers and lurkers, and tentacled things that became gricks and grells when they came along/were added to the game. So treatment, good/bad/otherwise, of black humans just didn't arise, because there were none. I had dark-skinned humans dwelling beyond Ulgarth, in Raurin and points east (instead of the grafted-on-by-TSR "Oriental Adventures" locales) and on the various island chains west of Faerun, in the Sea of Swords (the "Anchorome" region). There is no Maztica (or Osse) in the original Realms, but instead: Laerakond, and SE of it/SW of Faerun, there's Thuin, a N/S-long-axis continent with dark-skinned human peoples (many squabbling city-states)


@POCGamer
Have you got a map? I'm very curious to see what this looks like.


@TheEdVerse
Heh. SOMEwhere.
Think of a "fat arrowhead pointing north" (actually, more like the spades suit on a deck of cards, only without a base). The curved sides, especially on the SE, are dagged/ragged with many inlets/bays where rivers run down into them, and the largest cities are of course ports sited on the rivermouths. There's a high rock plateau in the NE of Thuin, with towering cliffs (seacaves beneath) plunging down into the sea. NW is jungle. The Thuin (local humans) are (to, groan, borrow a real-world analogue) are about Shakespeare's depiction of the independent Italian city-states (Milan, etc.) era (tights and swords); i.e. flourishing arts and literature, NOT primitive; they garden and harvest the jungles, not clearcutting them. They DO hunt the monsters to "wild breed" them (that is, eliminate the most dangerous ones, spare the 'useful' ones, and the same with useful herbs and edible berry vines and lumber trees; this has the same screwups and pitfalls as all human meddling with the environment, but they understand natural cycles and balance far better than we real-world moderns do, and so make fewer mistakes and eliminate fewer species accidentally or without caring). Most of the civic authorities are matriarchal, there's gender equality (not just power equality, but no linking of societal/family roles to genitalia), and the disputes are generally about wealth or over the direction particular individuals are taking a city, family firm, taxation, etc. and over ownership of oyster beds, stands of valuable trees due to differences in philosophies of stewardship of those resources. Thuin understand prevailing winds and sun, and build their homes accordingly, with communal city buildings that combine shops, workshops, offices, and dwelling-spaces for at least the custodians of the shops, etc.

However, I hear you and will add a hunt for the map to my ever-growing list of "things I've gotta find for fellow fans of the Realms." ;}
This is my life.
#Realmslore



Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
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USA
11183 Posts

Posted - 01 Nov 2021 :  16:05:20  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Also, just to try and gather the data we've gotten over the years, in 2009 Ask Ed scroll there's this about Aurune from The Hidden One (also something... the Sunrise Mountains next to Thay were originally the Thaedanth and the range extending into the hordelands was apparently the Shraaeve).

http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12023&whichpage=71

Hi again, all.
Teneck, I sent along Markustay's "world" map to Ed. He chuckled at the Land of Flying Monkeys, tells me the "Eastern Sea" is all wrong (about a quarter the width it should be), that Anchorome (there should be a circonflex accent mark over the second "o", and an accent grave over the "e" but I can't type them on this machine) is an island chain and NOT a continent (that's a Faerunian mainlander's mistake), that the northwesternmost "Unknown Lands" should be "Aurune," and that the "Utter South" should be "Umbrar" (its proper name).

Markustay, Ed tells me that little outlier of the Thaedanth Range are collectively known as "the Shraaeve" (which means "Skyfangs" in a local dialect).

Sage, Ed tells me three months is too little; almost seven months before Chapter 17 is the right reply to give you.

love to all,
THO

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

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sleyvas
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Posted - 01 Nov 2021 :  16:48:11  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So, just to open up discussion... this fit?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qaeZBkttPV6S0ru1Ed0x0Hw2rEpZC3w8/view?usp=sharing

On Osse, I open up the question again... what do we know of it as a "continent" versus it being "a place on a continent" or even it being "a place in another world that he came here from". I know it was in lady of poison, but I don't remember what all was said, except that it was where Gungari came from. For all we know "Osse" was possibly in Abeir and Gungari came here from there? Or maybe it's in the collection of islands off Zakhara's west coast or the crowded sea in the far south.


Also, to note, the place that I list as as a possible Thuin doesn't really match the shape Ed describes (as spade missing the base), so in theory, another solution could be that wherever we might relocate Laerakond could also have Thuin relatively close to it.... of course, his entry about Thuin also notes that "its in his home realms but not the published one" as opposed to this new continent which is firmly described as part of FR.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 01 Nov 2021 17:13:30
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Small things.... I get... that's why I mentioned the ideas of islands being differently shaped, or numbers of them overblown, locations slightly off. But large continents I'm expecting to be ROUGHLY right. So, that huge honking land mass above Maztica shouldn't just suddenly be a bunch of islands. We should be able to "roughly" get an idea of what's where, especially with things that are near Faerun.





They would only be right if someone skilled at cartography had actually been there.

That real-world island I mentioned -- we had exact coordinates for it, and it still took 200 years for someone to realize there was nothing there. Some of us were active on this forum for a while before that island was removed from maps.

Most of the areas on that map have never been described in canon Realmslore, the book that presents the map gives us reason to question it, and the guy that created the setting also says the map is wrong. What more do we need to admit that maybe, just maybe, those unknown lands are incorrectly depicted because no one from Faerûn has actually been to them?

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The Masked Mage
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I'd say Wooly has the idea here. Old maps were WAY off. Like, they could not be worse. Go back far enough (before the common use of magnetic north) and they are sideways. More importantly, they were based entirely on the reports of explorers - who lied to make themselves greater, or who were wrong about something. "Today we traveled 80 miles" - nope, you didn't. The first full map of Mexico estimated its size to be larger than either north or south America.
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

I'd say Wooly has the idea here. Old maps were WAY off. Like, they could not be worse. Go back far enough (before the common use of magnetic north) and they are sideways. More importantly, they were based entirely on the reports of explorers - who lied to make themselves greater, or who were wrong about something. "Today we traveled 80 miles" - nope, you didn't. The first full map of Mexico estimated its size to be larger than either north or south America.



Old maps in our world didn't have available people who were travelling in orbit (i.e. several cultures, but Netheril being one). Even current 5e they're sticking in spelljamming ships, so I'd imagine someone could provide something of a map of the world, and with the world suddenly changing, I'd imagine someone would be questioning the differences enough to fly up and take a look. Again, not looking for exacting detail, or noticing an island missing (or even 50 islands missing)... but if extremely large land masses were to go away, I'd think cartographers would be talking about it.

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TheIriaeban
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It could be RIGHT where Ed says it is but it is hidden via magic (kinda like how Themyscira is hidden/invisible in the DC universe). It isn't on the maps because no one knows it is there. Anyone that happens to make it there is either killed or geased/memory erased so they can't say anything about it.

Size wise, it could be about the same size or a little bit larger than Greenland. Greenland is our world's largest island while Australia is our world's smallest continent. Australia is a little over 3 times the size of Greenland but that may not matter on Faerun. They may have a different scale for what is considered a continent.

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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

I'd say Wooly has the idea here. Old maps were WAY off. Like, they could not be worse. Go back far enough (before the common use of magnetic north) and they are sideways. More importantly, they were based entirely on the reports of explorers - who lied to make themselves greater, or who were wrong about something. "Today we traveled 80 miles" - nope, you didn't. The first full map of Mexico estimated its size to be larger than either north or south America.



Old maps in our world didn't have available people who were travelling in orbit (i.e. several cultures, but Netheril being one). Even current 5e they're sticking in spelljamming ships, so I'd imagine someone could provide something of a map of the world, and with the world suddenly changing, I'd imagine someone would be questioning the differences enough to fly up and take a look. Again, not looking for exacting detail, or noticing an island missing (or even 50 islands missing)... but if extremely large land masses were to go away, I'd think cartographers would be talking about it.



If we play the spelljammer card, then we have to question why those lands are unknown. It can't be both ways -- it doesn't work to say that spelljammers have been used to extensively and accurately map coastlines but haven't bothered with interiors or landing anywhere other than Faerûn.

And again, the same book that gives us that map says "Even the wisest scholars of Candlekeep know only a little of what lies beyond the realms of Faerûn." The very source of the map says that the map can't be trusted.

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sleyvas
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

I'd say Wooly has the idea here. Old maps were WAY off. Like, they could not be worse. Go back far enough (before the common use of magnetic north) and they are sideways. More importantly, they were based entirely on the reports of explorers - who lied to make themselves greater, or who were wrong about something. "Today we traveled 80 miles" - nope, you didn't. The first full map of Mexico estimated its size to be larger than either north or south America.



Old maps in our world didn't have available people who were travelling in orbit (i.e. several cultures, but Netheril being one). Even current 5e they're sticking in spelljamming ships, so I'd imagine someone could provide something of a map of the world, and with the world suddenly changing, I'd imagine someone would be questioning the differences enough to fly up and take a look. Again, not looking for exacting detail, or noticing an island missing (or even 50 islands missing)... but if extremely large land masses were to go away, I'd think cartographers would be talking about it.



If we play the spelljammer card, then we have to question why those lands are unknown. It can't be both ways -- it doesn't work to say that spelljammers have been used to extensively and accurately map coastlines but haven't bothered with interiors or landing anywhere other than Faerûn.

And again, the same book that gives us that map says "Even the wisest scholars of Candlekeep know only a little of what lies beyond the realms of Faerûn." The very source of the map says that the map can't be trusted.



Put it this way.... they can fly up... they can get a rough idea of the shapes of land. Easy and take maybe a day or two. Searching those lands and meeting their inhabitants? hard. Making an extremely accurate view of those lands? hard. Exhaustively mapping the interiors of those lands? hard.

Those lands may be extremely hostile. From orbit you can't tell much about them except their shapes and that maybe "this section looks real green, so I suspect forests.... that looks real brown so.. NOT forests". They can probably make out mountains, but getting a real good idea of their layout from above can be troublesome, since your view is modified by angle of viewing. So, you might end up with rough lines to show mountain ranges.

So, when someone says that the drawing is inaccurate, yes, they're not wrong. But were the place that we've been calling "Osse" but maybe is "called something else" to go away, they'd notice. If the big honking place that we've been calling Anchorome were to go away... they'd notice. That being said, that's with spelljamming becoming more and more known to some portion of the population (and let's face it, starting around the 1350's... the WORLD started knowing about it more. Multiple countries had started to reach out to the stars... at least 3 in the form of Kara-tur, Wa, and Thay are documented to have made their own spelljamming vessels). Now we're starting to see more and more instances of spelljamming again. How long before a crew gets the idea that people would pay thousands of gold just for the opportunity to fly up and draw their world? How long before someone makes a "mirror" that can capture a reflection and then recall it later to aid this process and you have people charging cartographers not to make the trip, but just to look at the series of mirrors holding reflections?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

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Wooly Rupert
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If they can just fly up and see the shape of the coastline, why can't they see any cities, or rivers, or mountains?

And why is it harder to map the interior of a continent than the coastline, when you can fly over both?

Plus, who's talking about doing this from orbit? Why wouldn't ships make suborbital flights? Are you seriously suggesting someone is paying for half-assed mapmaking?

(Before anyone says it, there's little risk to a ship at say 10,000 feet -- certainly no more than there would be over Faerûn)

And who is paying for ships to go look at another place and turn around and come home, without even attempting to trade or find resources? It's a hell of a lot more cost and effort to sail to an unknown port by water, and yet, that has still happened repeatedly -- otherwise we'd've never heard of Maztica.

Spelljammer has never been properly integrated into any D&D setting, because no one has ever bothered to address how easily accessible, swift-flying ships affect trade, military matters, and make unknown areas become known areas.

I don't care how many mentions there are of spelljamming here and there. Until those issues are addressed, it's like much of what happened in 4E: "Hey, let's do this kewl thing without any thought whatsoever to the full implications of it!"

Either you have spelljamming ships and EVERYTHING that this entails, or they need to be left out of the discussion entirely.


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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 02 Nov 2021 11:23:53
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sleyvas
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Because to get a clear enough view of a whole continent you have to fly so high that cities are little more than a speck. I think its been noted that the only manmade structure you can see from orbit is the Great Wall of China. Again, I'm not picturing some spelljammer crew taking a cartographer up to spend months or years to map the world. I'm picturing them going "hey, want to go up for a day... or days... maybe 2 weeks". If they want to do closer mapping, then they can tell them "hey go get one of those <insert other group's name> skyships and pay them to bring you around....".

Also, when you fly at lower altitudes for extended lengths, you have a tendency to draw the attention of dragons who like to tear apart cute little flying ships.

On the "addressing spelljamming".... I know you probably haven't read some of my stuff, but I actually am trying to address those issues... the main one being "fast-flying". Things like it taking upwards of a week or two to leave orbit instead of a couple minutes, or making them only a little better than a halruaan skyskip while in atmosphere. Making them afraid of dragons that are flying around in atmosphere. But that's a WHOLE other issue. The point for me is that it doesn't appear that they'll be letting that dog lie, and they shouldn't. It's a fun idea, and it should be explored and fixed along the way. The only way to fix it though is to become aware of the issues.

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Edited by - sleyvas on 02 Nov 2021 13:00:30
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-The "Maybe the scholars are wrong" avenue is a route that you can take, but in the end, meta, it doesn't work since 3e products were presented as omniscient without narrator biases. Obviously, at the end of the day, (A) you can think whatever you want to think and (B) we'll never actually have an answer here, but I just feel compelled to say. FWIW, I used to prefer the 3e omniscient narrator style, but really the flawed narrator POV makes things more fun.

-Sleyvas, regarding Osse, all we actually know are like five or six sentences from Lady of Poison and a few from a WotC website article on including classes from new sourcebooks in the Forgotten Realms. The long and short of it was that Osse was a continent and it was vaguely Australian in flavor. Back in the day (Jesus it was like 10-15 years ago at this point, very sad) me, Markus, BadCatMan and maybe others I am forgetting (sorry) started a really great and fun project filling in the blank map. I believe it's pretty much lost to time, along with so much other stuff we all did.

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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Because to get a clear enough view of a whole continent you have to fly so high that cities are little more than a speck. I think its been noted that the only manmade structure you can see from orbit is the Great Wall of China. Again, I'm not picturing some spelljammer crew taking a cartographer up to spend months or years to map the world. I'm picturing them going "hey, want to go up for a day... or days... maybe 2 weeks". If they want to do closer mapping, then they can tell them "hey go get one of those <insert other group's name> skyships and pay them to bring you around....".


But you don't need to fly so high that you see the entire continent at once. From 30,000 or even 10,000 feet, you'd be way above pretty much anything that could come after you, and you'd be able to see such details well enough for cartography.

And some rivers can be seen from space. So can other geological features other than coastlines.

In fact, the Geomancer kit in The Complete Spacefarer's Handbook (a Spelljammer book from TSR) says that a Geomancer can, using a spyglass, identify major cities, good landing sites, good fresh water sources, fertile areas, and forests -- all from orbit.

So Spelljammer canon also says that even from orbit, you can do more than map coastlines.

And that's without the use of magic that would surely be employed if someone was commissioning a spelljammer to make maps.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Also, when you fly at lower altitudes for extended lengths, you have a tendency to draw the attention of dragons who like to tear apart cute little flying ships.


Any spelljammer with a reasonable competent caster on the helm is going to leave any dragons far behind.

And that's assuming the dragon could get that high. Spelljammers are not affected by altitude -- so being at airline height isn't an issue for them, but getting 5 or 6 miles above ground is going to be an issue for a dragon.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

On the "addressing spelljamming".... I know you probably haven't read some of my stuff, but I actually am trying to address those issues... the main one being "fast-flying". Things like it taking upwards of a week or two to leave orbit instead of a couple minutes, or making them only a little better than a halruaan skyskip while in atmosphere. Making them afraid of dragons that are flying around in atmosphere. But that's a WHOLE other issue. The point for me is that it doesn't appear that they'll be letting that dog lie, and they shouldn't. It's a fun idea, and it should be explored and fixed along the way. The only way to fix it though is to become aware of the issues.



Such fixes require retcons. And even those fixes wouldn't explain away why ships wouldn't be used for trading with distant continents -- even if it takes a week to get to orbit and a week to get back down, that's still better than the months it would take at sea. (It would also be better than marching an army overland for months)

And the fact that Halruaan skyships have been known to go elsewhere in the Realms shows that if dragons are a concern, they're not a big enough concern to stop such things from happening. Sure, a dragon could outperform a Halruaan skyship in the air in every way -- but unless you've got squadrons of dragons constantly in the air, actively patrolling, the odds of a dragon and a skyship meeting are about the same as finding a high-level wizard whilst walking through the middle of a forest a hundred miles away from the closest civilization. It could happen, but I'd not put any gold on it.

As I've said before, I love Spelljammer -- but in terms of the existing D&D settings, it can't be integrated without becoming something else entirely. Either you change everything in a D&D setting to accommodate swiftly-flying ships, or you have to rebuild Spelljammer from the ground up, majorly retconning everything about it. The easiest fix would be to keep ships out of the atmosphere entirely, but that removes most of the reason for the setting's existence.

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Zeromaru X
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And that's assuming the dragon could get that high. Spelljammers are not affected by altitude -- so being at airline height isn't an issue for them, but getting 5 or 6 miles above ground is going to be an issue for a dragon.



Unless you are an amethyst dragon, that are unaffected by gravity and such cosmic forces (according to FToD).

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And the fact that Halruaan skyships have been known to go elsewhere in the Realms shows that if dragons are a concern, they're not a big enough concern to stop such things from happening. Sure, a dragon could outperform a Halruaan skyship in the air in every way -- but unless you've got squadrons of dragons constantly in the air, actively patrolling, the odds of a dragon and a skyship meeting are about the same as finding a high-level wizard whilst walking through the middle of a forest a hundred miles away from the closest civilization. It could happen, but I'd not put any gold on it.



I guess this would be an issue in places were dragons are more numerous than in Faerun. In Laerakond, for instance.

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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And that's assuming the dragon could get that high. Spelljammers are not affected by altitude -- so being at airline height isn't an issue for them, but getting 5 or 6 miles above ground is going to be an issue for a dragon.



Unless you are an amethyst dragon, that are unaffected by gravity and such cosmic forces (according to FToD).


So are they constantly floating around in zero-G, then?

(This gives me a mental image of amethyst dragon eggs having to be tied down to keep them from floating away! )

Even if they can get up that high, unless they can ignore the need for oxygen, they'll need to come back down before very long. There's a reason aircraft are sealed up when they go that high, and have emergency oxygen available.

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Gelcur
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

On the "addressing spelljamming"....


Has anyone tried just asking Ed on this new fangled Twitter thing?

I know it's not originally part of the Realms but Ed usually thinks all these kinds of things through especially since he wrote some Spelljamming material.

Could be some sort of natural or magical phenomenon that fixes this sort of thing. Just spit balling, wild magic shell around Toril that shunts Spelljammers to openings. Think ozone and holes. We've already seen mass illusions on Selune, maybe similar phenomon is exhibited by this shell making any maps produced inaccurate to an extreme. Not sure what height it would start at, hell could be a "band" of a certain thickness to prevent flying ships from below as well from getting too high.

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Razz
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Yeah that was my tweet asking about the map.

All this just furthers the issue with Toril. The designers just need to get off their butts and make a world map already. Heck they don’t even need to wholly detail every continent. Just give enough generic info for people to work with and let everyone else make up the rest.

Because I find it odd that the setting is so extremely narrowly focused on Faerun. As if for some reason no other lands ever interact or have any influence in Faerun at all. The continent feels extremely isolated which defies all logic. I would rather have some contrived explanation that a “magic barrier surrounds Faerun and its closest waters” keeping them isolated and making any forays beyond or entering Faerun a mysterious anomaly.

After millenia and the prodigious amount of magic and explorers and adventurers the world has, at this point in Faerun’s time there is no logical explanation why the rest of the world is still unknown. And why it doesn’t even have much influence with Faerun and vice versa. Spelljamming was mentioned earlier, but there’s also skyships and powerful casters who are also sages that would want to accurately depict and interact with the wider world.

Ironic how we have more information on extraplanar realms in the setting than we do on what lies across the oceans!

Edited by - Razz on 05 Nov 2021 13:07:35
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Wooly Rupert
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quote:
Originally posted by Razz

Yeah that was my tweet asking about the map.

All this just furthers the issue with Toril. The designers just need to get off their butts and make a world map already. Heck they don’t even need to wholly detail every continent. Just give enough generic info for people to work with and let everyone else make up the rest.

Because I find it odd that the setting is so extremely narrowly focused on Faerun. As if for some reason no other lands ever interact or have any influence in Faerun at all. The continent feels extremely isolated which defies all logic. I would rather have some contrived explanation that a “magic barrier surrounds Faerun and its closest waters” keeping them isolated and making any forays beyond or entering Faerun a mysterious anomaly.

After millenia and the prodigious amount of magic and explorers and adventurers the world has, at this point in Faerun’s time there is no logical explanation why the rest of the world is still unknown. And why it doesn’t even have much influence with Faerun and vice versa. Spelljamming was mentioned earlier, but there’s also skyships and powerful casters who are also sages that would want to accurately depict and interact with the wider world.

Ironic how we have more information on extraplanar realms in the setting than we do on what lies across the oceans!



I don't see how it's that illogical considering the real world was much the same.

Halruaan skyships are slow and when it comes to ocean travel, don't really have that much of an advantage over conventional sailing ships.

And yes, spelljamming would solve the issue of filling in the map, but since it breaks other aspects of the setting and wasn't well-integrated to begin with, I'm comfortable leaving it out of the equation entirely.

As for magic, while it can be a great aid for exploration, you still have to know where you're going, first. Most wizards aren't going to say "I'm going to teleport 2000 miles that way and see where I land" -- especially since the less imprecise the location, the greater the potential for adverse consequences on arrival. Most scrying magics aren't going to have the range, and those that do, you still have to know where you're looking. A wizard could pick a random spot to start looking, then move his scrying sensor, and still be days or even weeks from land.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 05 Nov 2021 13:29:26
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Razz
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
As for magic, while it can be a great aid for exploration, you still have to know where you're going, first. Most wizards aren't going to say "I'm going to teleport 2000 miles that way and see where I land" -- especially since the less imprecise the location, the greater the potential for adverse consequences on arrival. Most scrying magics aren't going to have the range, and those that do, you still have to know where you're looking. A wizard could pick a random spot to start looking, then move his scrying sensor, and still be days or even weeks from land.



With magic that can create sky cities, disintegrate entire armies, rip inhabitants of another world from 2 separate points of time, summon massive tidal waves, sunder an entire continent, and steal the divine essence of a goddess of magic, I find it extremely incredulous that no one developed a spell similar to our real world satellites to map the world, a spell that creates a vision of the entire world, and a caster can mentally “zoom in and out and scan” as they please.
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Lord Karsus
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quote:
Originally posted by Razz

Ironic how we have more information on extraplanar realms in the setting than we do on what lies across the oceans!


-Kind of like how we know more about space, or our solar system, than we do about deep down in the ocean.

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Posted - 05 Nov 2021 :  17:55:02  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Razz

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
As for magic, while it can be a great aid for exploration, you still have to know where you're going, first. Most wizards aren't going to say "I'm going to teleport 2000 miles that way and see where I land" -- especially since the less imprecise the location, the greater the potential for adverse consequences on arrival. Most scrying magics aren't going to have the range, and those that do, you still have to know where you're looking. A wizard could pick a random spot to start looking, then move his scrying sensor, and still be days or even weeks from land.



With magic that can create sky cities, disintegrate entire armies, rip inhabitants of another world from 2 separate points of time, summon massive tidal waves, sunder an entire continent, and steal the divine essence of a goddess of magic, I find it extremely incredulous that no one developed a spell similar to our real world satellites to map the world, a spell that creates a vision of the entire world, and a caster can mentally “zoom in and out and scan” as they please.



But to what end? Exploration is largely driven by a need for resources, and wizards aren't going to need to look halfway around the world for resources. Also, what wizard is going to think "Hmmm, maybe if I create an eye in the sky I can use it to look down at some place thousands of miles away even though I've got absolutely no reason to?"

Even in Spelljammer, artificial satellites are orbital bases or isolated dwellings, not spy satellites.

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sleyvas
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Posted - 05 Nov 2021 :  22:29:17  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Razz

Yeah that was my tweet asking about the map.

All this just furthers the issue with Toril. The designers just need to get off their butts and make a world map already. Heck they don’t even need to wholly detail every continent. Just give enough generic info for people to work with and let everyone else make up the rest.

Because I find it odd that the setting is so extremely narrowly focused on Faerun. As if for some reason no other lands ever interact or have any influence in Faerun at all. The continent feels extremely isolated which defies all logic. I would rather have some contrived explanation that a “magic barrier surrounds Faerun and its closest waters” keeping them isolated and making any forays beyond or entering Faerun a mysterious anomaly.

After millenia and the prodigious amount of magic and explorers and adventurers the world has, at this point in Faerun’s time there is no logical explanation why the rest of the world is still unknown. And why it doesn’t even have much influence with Faerun and vice versa. Spelljamming was mentioned earlier, but there’s also skyships and powerful casters who are also sages that would want to accurately depict and interact with the wider world.

Ironic how we have more information on extraplanar realms in the setting than we do on what lies across the oceans!



One thing that I'd consider proposing, since Ed seems to have a huge want for there to be a bunch of islands for Anchorome.... part of the reason that the people of Ruathym, etc... haven't explored the "continent misamed Anchorome" extensively is that there's some kind of portal as you near Evermeet that extends hundres of miles (like a curtain or wall portal, but its essentially "mist"), and it sends ships that approach into an area with a ton of islands, like the crowded sea, or the islands off the Zakhara's western coast, of the isles off Kara-tur. In fact, there might be similar "mist" areas within each of those, and thus some crews find themselves travelling all around the world. These mist portals might be variable as well or only active at certain times.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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