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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
 Posted - 30 Oct 2021 : 01:57:43
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Sometimes the greatest of "crimes" - the ones carrying the most harsh penalties - aren't anything actually criminal.
It's just refusing to submit authority to those who have assumed it. A poor choice when everyone else gives them the authority to have power over deviants.
Although offending Lolth is far worse than offending a mere Mayor, Lord or Lady, King or Queen. It's angering an archfiend from the Abyss.
It does seem strange to me that Lolth would impose rules and punishments designed to maintain a structured and stable social hierarchy. That sort of thinking is the hallmark of Lawful Evil devils, not Chaotic Evil demons (especially when they are also archetype deities for a Chaotic Evil and fey-inclined race). |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 30 Oct 2021 02:03:35 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2021 : 02:09:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Huh. For some reason, I thought it was only the males who were subjected to that particular punishment. (Which I still don't understand, as a punishment: "According to our goddess, you're a loser! So we're going to make you more like her, as punishment for being a loser!")
One POSSIBLE way to explain it (because yeah, I get the same feeling) is... she was punished in the same way by the leader of the elves. However, SHE worked past it, and she CAN appear in her original form IF SHE WANTS TO.... so these failures can figure out how to get past their own punishment and redeem themselves JUST LIKE HER if they don't like it. Oh, then you have to add "So THERE, nani nani boo boo... stick your head in mushrooroo".
Yeah, but don't they take a major hit to the mental capacities, when transformed to a drider?
It may depend on Edition, however most appear to indicate memories are retained. Which is why they can cast spells. Their Comeliness (If used) takes a major hit. They are socially not acceptable in Drow society. Perhaps driven somewhat insane? (Though never saw a source that states that) |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Stones Finder
Acolyte
Canada
30 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2021 : 04:44:51
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The original 1e write-up of driders said that at around Level 6-8, all drow were put to a test by Lolth, and the ones who failed became driders. Little was said about what the test was, but IIRC correctly, the Queen of the Demonweb Pits module had a room where players could encounter a group of drow undertaking the Test of Lolth, which involved looting a trapped chest. The implication is that the Test was nothing more than a standard dungeon crawl.
1e driders explicitly retained their spellcasting abilities - even the clerics. In the novel Homeland, RAS has Drizzt encounter a couple of driders, and concludes that they're mindless combat machines who want nothing more than their own deaths. His mother then threatens him with driderhood if he continues to misbehave. A few books later, Drizzt's older brother Dinin is turned into a drider after he annoys little sister Vierna. It's been a long time with since I've read The Legacy, but I think his fight with Drizzt showed him to be an unthinking monster.
And so, RAS turned driders from failed adventurers to any drow who'd ticked off Lolth or her priestesses. Unless you count the Maztica trilogy, I don't think we saw driders in the novels again until the War of the Spider Queen, where they were intelligent enough to attempt a coup in Menzoberranzen.
On the other hand, the post-Spellplague Drizzt novels feature driders who are smart enough to be bribed with the promise of a noble House of their own. Relentless, the last Drizzt novel I'm likely to buy, had a large number of dead driders returned from the Demonweb Pits and returned to life and their original forms - including Dinin.
In short, drider continuity was a mess even before WOTC jettisoned canon entirely. DMs should use whatever version works for their stories. |
Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it - Advice for the 5e design team |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2021 : 05:33:54
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Driders don't need to all interchangeably fit the same stat blocks. In fact it seems unlikely that any two driders will be exactly alike - given the wide range of individual variations in their original species - given the twisted demonic magics which create their new species.
Some may have been intelligent spellcasters before their transformation. Some may have been unintelligent brutes before their transformation. Some may remain "intact" after their transformation while others may have been "damaged" by the transformation - and the latter might even be a vengeful or punitive measure from Lolth (or her Priestesses), deliberately inflicted on (or reserved for) the most obnoxious and unfortunate offenders. Different drider subtypes may even exist simply because sometimes you need a cunning and sneaky guard dog, sometimes you need a big mindless dangerous war dog, sometimes you need a mix of both kinds to throw resourceful intruders/adventurers off balance, and sometimes an evil drow priestess might need to make a "special example" to motivate certain individuals or houses towards (or away from) certain life choices.
I think it's foolish to assume every drider is nearly identical, just as it's foolish to assume every adventurer is nearly identical. Each drider has a complete backstory full of sad events which led to the tragic transformation, we aren't given (don't really need to know) the details and chances are that the drider isn't very talkative about it anyhow.
I think it could safely be assumed that the driders we've read about in adventures, sourcebooks, modules, and novels were the particular ad-hoc variants which happened to best fit the needs of the narratives. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 30 Oct 2021 05:54:57 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2021 : 05:52:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Some may remain "intact" after their transformation while others may have been "damaged" by the transformation - and the latter might even be a vengeful or punitive measure from Lolth (or her Priestesses), deliberately inflicted on (or reserved for) the most obnoxious and unfortunate offenders.
I think is the best approach. Someone transformed to a drider has a chance to retain their mental faculties -- but there's also a chance they could be overwhelmed by the transformation, becoming the near-mindless monsters that I was thinking of. These monstrous ones may be able to recover, but having failed once, it's tougher to come back from it. |
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Galuf the Dwarf
Senior Scribe
USA
496 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2021 : 13:01:25
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| No offense, but could we try to steer the thread back towards the main topic? |
Galuf's Baldur's Gate NPC stats: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8823
Galuf's 3.5 Ed. Cleric Domains: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14036
Galuf's Homebrew 4th Edition Races: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13787
Galuf's Homebrew Specialty Priest PrCs: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14353
Galuf's Forgotten Realms Heralds and Allies thread: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8766 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2021 : 18:31:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Sometimes the greatest of "crimes" - the ones carrying the most harsh penalties - aren't anything actually criminal.
It's just refusing to submit authority to those who have assumed it. A poor choice when everyone else gives them the authority to have power over deviants.
Although offending Lolth is far worse than offending a mere Mayor, Lord or Lady, King or Queen. It's angering an archfiend from the Abyss.
It does seem strange to me that Lolth would impose rules and punishments designed to maintain a structured and stable social hierarchy. That sort of thinking is the hallmark of Lawful Evil devils, not Chaotic Evil demons (especially when they are also archetype deities for a Chaotic Evil and fey-inclined race).
It may be that those individuals were set to organize the drow, and as a result, they were a threat to making them realize what crap their environment is like. Thus, they were a threat to the chaos. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2021 : 18:34:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Galuf the Dwarf
No offense, but could we try to steer the thread back towards the main topic?
Oh, sorry man, I have a tendency to stray.
So, to kind of bring it back to topic.... what kind of options can you think of to do an "artificer" who is a variant of alchemist, but whose main focus is on brewing alcohols? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2021 : 16:38:05
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Distinctions should be made between brewers, distillers, and fermenters when it comes to making the various types of alcohol. Different skill sets, processes, and tools are required for each.
I keep seeing "elves & wine, elves & wine, elves & wine" like a mantra ever since it was first penned by Tolkien. The elves that have been made in fantasy inspired by Tolkien may like wine but the derivative elves' preference to reside in tall-tree forests severely limits their ability to grow the necessary grapes themselves meanwhile wild grapes are destructive to forests which would just be viewed as a threat by the elves. As far as I saw of it, only Evereska in the FR could ever support more than trace production of wine compared to its elf population which would render the elves as mostly importers of wine with domestic production unable to produce enough to satisfy their own needs. This along with the unpleasant-to-be-around rotting process (Moander! just kidding) necessary to alcohol production should render elf-produced wines as rare treasures instead of common staples. By contrast there are other naturally occurring woodland comestibles (fruits, berries, nuts, & seeds) that would make more sense for the elves to malt or ferment. Consider the list of alcoholic drinks made in the RW from which we can derive other vices of the elves that make sense to their forest-centrist colonization of the FR. |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2021 : 23:03:02
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quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
Distinctions should be made between brewers, distillers, and fermenters when it comes to making the various types of alcohol. Different skill sets, processes, and tools are required for each.
I keep seeing "elves & wine, elves & wine, elves & wine" like a mantra ever since it was first penned by Tolkien. The elves that have been made in fantasy inspired by Tolkien may like wine but the derivative elves' preference to reside in tall-tree forests severely limits their ability to grow the necessary grapes themselves meanwhile wild grapes are destructive to forests which would just be viewed as a threat by the elves. As far as I saw of it, only Evereska in the FR could ever support more than trace production of wine compared to its elf population which would render the elves as mostly importers of wine with domestic production unable to produce enough to satisfy their own needs. This along with the unpleasant-to-be-around rotting process (Moander! just kidding) necessary to alcohol production should render elf-produced wines as rare treasures instead of common staples. By contrast there are other naturally occurring woodland comestibles (fruits, berries, nuts, & seeds) that would make more sense for the elves to malt or ferment. Consider the list of alcoholic drinks made in the RW from which we can derive other vices of the elves that make sense to their forest-centrist colonization of the FR.
THAT goodsir is an interesting point. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Galuf the Dwarf
Senior Scribe
USA
496 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2021 : 01:42:57
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Now, concerning vodka, I was thinking about it other day, and I would argue for that being most likely human in origin, namely originating in Ruathym. If it does appear in the North, perhaps it was introduced to the population by Uther Gardolfson and his men? Don't know if that sound logical but it was the best idea I have.
Duergar would have drinks (likely akin to ale) made from somewhat similar sources as the Drow, but would likely taste horrid, even by the standards of Shield or Gold Dwarf standards (which are likely very high). Don't forget, Duergar are a very sullen, bitter species, and many aspects of their culture reflect that.
According to Races of Faerun, the Svirfneblin of Blidgenstone made a special wine out of a combination of underground herbs/plants and magic water from the Fountains of Memory called Gogondy, which also appeared in the novel Ascendancy of the Last. Not too far fetched to have them making something similar but non-magical, or possibly trade with other Underdark denizens in Mantol-Derith for whatever they have.
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Galuf's Baldur's Gate NPC stats: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8823
Galuf's 3.5 Ed. Cleric Domains: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14036
Galuf's Homebrew 4th Edition Races: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13787
Galuf's Homebrew Specialty Priest PrCs: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14353
Galuf's Forgotten Realms Heralds and Allies thread: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8766 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2021 : 01:54:34
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Why would all races necessarily prefer alcoholic, fermented, intoxicating beverages in the first place?
Human children naturally find the tastes of alcohols revolting. So alcohol consumption must be the result of acquired taste - a learned behaviour - acquired from social conformity with cultural expectations.
Indeed, not all human adults enjoy alcohols. Many drink rarely, if at all, because they simply dislike the taste and would prefer other beverages. Some cannot imagine life without booze - it's an important fixture in their daily lives - but others can easily ignore alcohol entirely.
We all know that dwarves love drinking a lot of rotgut. Described as truly potent stuff which will knock a human under the table.
We all know that elves like drinking their precious sparkling evermead. And we assume it's some sort of wine or champaign, something alcoholic. But we also know that elves have delicate constitutions which are averse to toxins. For all we know, evermead is basically bubbly nectar or ginger ale.
We all know that orcs are rough and brutish creatures. So we assume they enjoy gulping down any strong drink they can find, no matter how potent or gruesome it may be. But for all we know, orcs are just as happy drinking orange juice as fortified whiskey. They might have crude palettes which can barely differentiate tastes anyhow, and they certainly don't need to intake alcohol to become morose and bellicose creatures. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 08 Nov 2021 02:01:20 |
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Galuf the Dwarf
Senior Scribe
USA
496 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2021 : 02:00:35
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quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
Distinctions should be made between brewers, distillers, and fermenters when it comes to making the various types of alcohol. Different skill sets, processes, and tools are required for each.
I keep seeing "elves & wine, elves & wine, elves & wine" like a mantra ever since it was first penned by Tolkien. The elves that have been made in fantasy inspired by Tolkien may like wine but the derivative elves' preference to reside in tall-tree forests severely limits their ability to grow the necessary grapes themselves meanwhile wild grapes are destructive to forests which would just be viewed as a threat by the elves. As far as I saw of it, only Evereska in the FR could ever support more than trace production of wine compared to its elf population which would render the elves as mostly importers of wine with domestic production unable to produce enough to satisfy their own needs. This along with the unpleasant-to-be-around rotting process (Moander! just kidding) necessary to alcohol production should render elf-produced wines as rare treasures instead of common staples. By contrast there are other naturally occurring woodland comestibles (fruits, berries, nuts, & seeds) that would make more sense for the elves to malt or ferment. Consider the list of alcoholic drinks made in the RW from which we can derive other vices of the elves that make sense to their forest-centrist colonization of the FR.
Well, let's not forget, not every surface Elf lived quite like that. Wood Elves and Wild Elves, more likely. Sun Elves most likely lived in more traditional Elven dwellings in Evermeet and (as you pointed out) Evereska. Moon Elves, maybe. Also, they're noted in various sources at not just living in forests/trees, but some plains and valleys as well. |
Galuf's Baldur's Gate NPC stats: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8823
Galuf's 3.5 Ed. Cleric Domains: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14036
Galuf's Homebrew 4th Edition Races: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13787
Galuf's Homebrew Specialty Priest PrCs: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14353
Galuf's Forgotten Realms Heralds and Allies thread: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8766 |
Edited by - Galuf the Dwarf on 08 Nov 2021 02:02:38 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2021 : 04:18:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Galuf the Dwarf
quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
Distinctions should be made between brewers, distillers, and fermenters when it comes to making the various types of alcohol. Different skill sets, processes, and tools are required for each.
I keep seeing "elves & wine, elves & wine, elves & wine" like a mantra ever since it was first penned by Tolkien. The elves that have been made in fantasy inspired by Tolkien may like wine but the derivative elves' preference to reside in tall-tree forests severely limits their ability to grow the necessary grapes themselves meanwhile wild grapes are destructive to forests which would just be viewed as a threat by the elves. As far as I saw of it, only Evereska in the FR could ever support more than trace production of wine compared to its elf population which would render the elves as mostly importers of wine with domestic production unable to produce enough to satisfy their own needs. This along with the unpleasant-to-be-around rotting process (Moander! just kidding) necessary to alcohol production should render elf-produced wines as rare treasures instead of common staples. By contrast there are other naturally occurring woodland comestibles (fruits, berries, nuts, & seeds) that would make more sense for the elves to malt or ferment. Consider the list of alcoholic drinks made in the RW from which we can derive other vices of the elves that make sense to their forest-centrist colonization of the FR.
Well, let's not forget, not every surface Elf lived quite like that. Wood Elves and Wild Elves, more likely. Sun Elves most likely lived in more traditional Elven dwellings in Evermeet and (as you pointed out) Evereska. Moon Elves, maybe. Also, they're noted in various sources at not just living in forests/trees, but some plains and valleys as well.
I'm wondering if, given millennia of plant cultivation and the fact that they've used magic to shape plants before, maybe elves have overcome the issues SaMoCon noted.
It's also not impossible that elves have greenhouses and can grow grapes and other plants under highly controlled conditions, year-round. |
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Humanoid races and alcohol brewing preferences?
