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 Jergal, Black Obelisks and Rewinding Time
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DeBasilisk
Acolyte

16 Posts

Posted - 19 Oct 2021 :  05:10:08  Show Profile Send DeBasilisk a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
There is an awesome supplement on the DMsguild about Jergal called Jergal, Lord of the End of Everythinf, I just purchased and read tonight. I don’t want to spoil much as I would rather encourage folks to purchase it and support the authors (it’s only 4 dollars!), but I will go ahead and reference a few brief points that piqued my interest. It is mentioned in the product that Jergal was a key mover in a plan that involved “rewinding” the timeline of the multiverse to a point before a magical calamity affecting the spell weaver race of beings. This calamity would have occurred prior to the rise of Netheril. Now, in the recent Icewind Dale Rime of the Frostmaiden adventure there is a potential plot involving rewinding the realms back to a period before the Fall of Netheril, to hopefully avert Karsus’ Folly. This plot has its roots in the mysterious black obelisks that have appeared in many 5e adventures as minor cameos.

Considering how instrumental Jergal was in Netherese history it seems like this has his fingerprints all over it, at least if you accept the DMsguild product as canon. Is the Black Obelisk backup plan intended by WotC to be connected to the story of Jergal? Or did WotC take the idea of a reset button from the authors of the Jergal write up behind the scenes and reimagine it? Just curious how it all ties together….

I also can’t help but note the reference in the Jergal supplement to an unfinished plan of Jergals spanning a period of 3,600 years….

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
35998 Posts

Posted - 19 Oct 2021 :  05:27:34  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think the black obelisks are there to give WotC a mechanism to muck around with time, if they choose to do so.

I consider the Jergal lore to be "semicanon" -- that's my personal designation for unofficial lore from FR designers like Krash and Eric L Boyd. It's written by respected Realms designers who care for the setting, so it's nearly canon, but lacks that official stamp from WotC.

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
5936 Posts

Posted - 19 Oct 2021 :  11:56:25  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I consider official canon with the stamp from WoTC to be near worthless. Go with semi-canon, the quality is far better.

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
11168 Posts

Posted - 19 Oct 2021 :  12:33:03  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If you like that idea

Look specifically in this product which predates the use of the Black Obelisks in Rime of the Frost Maiden (and I believe predates George's use as well for the time reversion part)
https://www.dmsguild.com/product/280837/ANS1-The-Land-of-the-Insect-Men

Its based in Anchorome, involves Jergal, and some thri-kreen being driven by an offshoot avatar of Jergal to search from some stones that involve the Code of Reversion

If you're interested in a lot of material to pick through, this contains the above and a LOT of stuff
https://www.dmsguild.com/product/280958/Maztica-Alive-BUNDLE


Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
35998 Posts

Posted - 19 Oct 2021 :  15:41:21  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

I consider official canon with the stamp from WoTC to be near worthless. Go with semi-canon, the quality is far better.




There's some good bits here and there; it's not all crap. The issue isn't that they don't have ideas, the issue is that there's no concern with how those ideas fit the setting.

I can't stand the Spellplague, but I love the Five Companies idea, for example, and would readily expand it (I've discussed that before, here). And though I've still not figured out the angle I'd take, I think there's a lot of potential for the Eminence of Araunt that was simply never explored.

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
5936 Posts

Posted - 19 Oct 2021 :  17:18:45  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm sure there are nuggets of edible matter in every pile of excrement.

Joking aside though I can only detail what happens when George and Eric release a new work and when WoTV release a new work.

When George and Eric release something new I rewrite my stuff to fit their vision with very little need to adapt their work to anything. Their work is the gospel truth as far as my version of the setting is concerned.

When WoTC release something new I read it searching for anything usable. Omu in the tomb of annihilation for instance. I then have to drastically rewrite it to remove all the nonsense and the horrifyingly obvious in jokes or just the bits they poorly researched or couldnt be bothered to fit in properly.

Those two different approaches speak volumes about what is or should he canon. Even if I was using the 1490s timeline I could not take half of WoTCs stuff as written because most of it is garbage (and that is being kind).

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DeBasilisk
Acolyte

16 Posts

Posted - 19 Oct 2021 :  17:37:38  Show Profile Send DeBasilisk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

If you like that idea

Look specifically in this product which predates the use of the Black Obelisks in Rime of the Frost Maiden (and I believe predates George's use as well for the time reversion part)
https://www.dmsguild.com/product/280837/ANS1-The-Land-of-the-Insect-Men

Its based in Anchorome, involves Jergal, and some thri-kreen being driven by an offshoot avatar of Jergal to search from some stones that involve the Code of Reversion

If you're interested in a lot of material to pick through, this contains the above and a LOT of stuff
https://www.dmsguild.com/product/280958/Maztica-Alive-BUNDLE





Thanks for the tip! Looks like quite the fun rabbit trail to run down.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
35998 Posts

Posted - 19 Oct 2021 :  18:43:24  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

Those two different approaches speak volumes about what is or should he canon. Even if I was using the 1490s timeline I could not take half of WoTCs stuff as written because most of it is garbage (and that is being kind).




No, the two different approaches speak volumes about you and your preferences. You've busily been rewriting half the Realms and complaining about large parts of it for a while, and a lot of those things have absolutely nothing to do with the Spellplague.

You may not like what WotC is doing, but there are people here that do, and the fact that WotC is making money doing it shows that enough people like it to make it profitable. Your opinions are exactly that: opinions.

And it's more helpful to people looking for ideas and information if they actually get ideas and information, not "it's all crap."

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 19 Oct 2021 18:50:17
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
5936 Posts

Posted - 19 Oct 2021 :  19:05:08  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Garbage, pronounced in the french way (Gar Barge) to make it sound more palatable.

I'm merely suggesting they would get more information and of a much higher quality if they perused the works of George, Eric, and Ed first. Leave WoTC for later after you have a better idea of what the realms should be like.

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
11168 Posts

Posted - 19 Oct 2021 :  19:49:51  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

I'm sure there are nuggets of edible matter in every pile of excrement.

Joking aside though I can only detail what happens when George and Eric release a new work and when WoTV release a new work.

When George and Eric release something new I rewrite my stuff to fit their vision with very little need to adapt their work to anything. Their work is the gospel truth as far as my version of the setting is concerned.

When WoTC release something new I read it searching for anything usable. Omu in the tomb of annihilation for instance. I then have to drastically rewrite it to remove all the nonsense and the horrifyingly obvious in jokes or just the bits they poorly researched or couldnt be bothered to fit in properly.

Those two different approaches speak volumes about what is or should he canon. Even if I was using the 1490s timeline I could not take half of WoTCs stuff as written because most of it is garbage (and that is being kind).




To put it in 90's speak...... "Dude, quit harshin' my mellow..... you need to chill..... Maybe use some constructive criticism"

And next time I'm being all grumpy and old fart'ish, you get to tell me the same thing. You know, like probably tomorrow. Maybe even this evening. Awww, who am I kidding, it'll probably be my next post.

P.S. Hopefully I made you smile, because that was the intent.


Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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redking
Learned Scribe

100 Posts

Posted - 02 May 2022 :  11:57:16  Show Profile Send redking a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If the story of the spellweavers interests you, then you owe it to yourself to read Dragon Magazine #338 - Ecology of the Spell Weaver. It contains much the same information, and may be the origin of the information that you were reading.
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe

409 Posts

Posted - 03 May 2022 :  03:13:31  Show Profile  Visit PattPlays's Homepage Send PattPlays a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm going to take advantage of this thread necromancy to say that Spelljammer 5e has thri-kreen I have heard and I wonder if they will do anything with them in regards to the Spellweavers...

:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, RIP Pluto: :IRC lives:


https://thisisstorytelling.wordpress.com

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Balmar Foghaven
Learned Scribe

Canada
120 Posts

Posted - 03 May 2022 :  13:18:56  Show Profile Send Balmar Foghaven a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I believe in the obelisks' history it mentioned a secretive group of beings called the "Weavers" created them. In the campaign I'm about to run I've referenced the obelisks and hinted that these might be the spell weavers themselves, having set up these contingencies to resurrect their own empire after its mysterious collapse. Though I guess I'm signing myself up for timey-wimey nonsense if I go this route.

"Despair not, for in the end all things shall work out for the best - in at least one timeline."

Edited by - Balmar Foghaven on 03 May 2022 13:19:29
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
1968 Posts

Posted - 03 May 2022 :  14:04:25  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by redking

If the story of the spellweavers interests you, then you owe it to yourself to read Dragon Magazine #338 - Ecology of the Spell Weaver. It contains much the same information, and may be the origin of the information that you were reading.



That article was an inspiration for key bits of the Jergal story.

Of course the key bit of inspiration for the whole thing was the interior illustration of Jergal in the novel "Prince of Lies."

--Eric

--
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/
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Defined
Acolyte

1 Posts

Posted - 25 May 2022 :  21:30:49  Show Profile Send Defined a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So, funnily enough, I just logged on to this site to try and pursue this exact bit of lore.

Does Jergal still harbour plans for a take two on the whole "Unwind time" thing?
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