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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1286 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Sep 2021 : 02:08:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red
Some more:
1.Too many Gods. The "poor Players" can't learn the names of ALL the gods and remember them all...it's too hard. D&D needs less gods!
One need only view the breadth of our own real-world mythology to blow the "There are too many gods."/"There are too many niche gods." complaint out of the water. In any case, I would argue that the gods themselves are in fact a selling point.
What blew my mind was when the 4E designers claimed there were too many gods -- and then added more.
I remember bits and pieces of the new divine players, but most of my time was spent expressing disappointment with the way 4e blatantly aped MMORPG mechanics. Come to think of it...that Raven Queen broad was trying to muscle in on Wee Jas, Kelemvor and Shar's territories  . |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2021 : 03:05:12
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| I don't know why all the hate for the Raven Queen. She was only introduced to the Realms IN 5e. Like, 8 years after she was created. In 4e, she was a god of another world, related to the Realms the same way Nerull was (so, not related at all). Sadly, the version that the Realms got of her in 5e is a watered-down, bland thing that holds no candles to the interesting goddess she was in 4e. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 21 Sep 2021 03:14:10 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2021 : 03:16:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
I think some people claiming that they'd do a better job of being Elminster than Elminster himself are seriously overestimating their own mental abilities; going by officially published statistics, both El and his foes (specifically, the ones who are virtually his peers) have stratospheric Intelligence and Wisdom scores (and Charisma, for that matter) that we can only imagine in the abstract. You don't manage to survive for hundreds if not thousands of years unless you're playing several moves ahead behind the scenes. That which appears to be dumb luck is occasionally anything but.
quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red
Some more:
1.Too many Gods. The "poor Players" can't learn the names of ALL the gods and remember them all...it's too hard. D&D needs less gods!
One need only view the breadth of our own real-world mythology to blow the "There are too many gods."/"There are too many niche gods." complaint out of the water. In any case, I would argue that the gods themselves are in fact a selling point.
They certainly are for me. Bring on the gods, I say. It's no different than real world mythologies, as you say. I hated 4e's pantheon reduction. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1286 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2021 : 22:54:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
I don't know why all the hate for the Raven Queen. She was only introduced to the Realms IN 5e. Like, 8 years after she was created. In 4e, she was a god of another world, related to the Realms the same way Nerull was (so, not related at all). Sadly, the version that the Realms got of her in 5e is a watered-down, bland thing that holds no candles to the interesting goddess she was in 4e.
Officially, yes, but...after she was first introduced in 4e, she made appearances in Realms games here and there. I don't know how common her being transplanted was, but it did happen. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2021 : 23:11:21
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Well, her 4e version was really interesting, and the concept of a god of death that is not evil was interesting as well (at least by 2008, when nearly all gods of death were evilish evildoers of evil evilness TM). That's why the Critical Role 5e books chose that version over the MToF ultra boring, really bland version.
As for the Raven Queen being used by individual DMs, well, I was under the impression that every and all DMs can do whatever they want with their Realms. You can hardly blame the WotC guys for that. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1286 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2021 : 02:07:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Well, her 4e version was really interesting, and the concept of a god of death that is not evil was interesting as well (at least by 2008, when nearly all gods of death were evilish evildoers of evil evilness TM). That's why the Critical Role 5e books chose that version over the MToF ultra boring, really bland version.
Pretty much every major D&D setting features at least one non-evil god of death...or at least a god also responsible for the concept of death even if it isn't their primary concern. On the other hand, the gods explicitly concerned with undeath/the undead tend to be blatantly evil.
Greyhawk - Wee Jas.
The Forgotten Realms - Kelemvor and Jergal.
Dragonlance - Habbakuk.
Planescape - The sky's the limit since all pantheons - fictional and "real" - are fair game. Hades is a popular example of a non-evil death god.
Mystara - Terra. Wee Jas also makes an appearance under another name. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2021 : 03:04:06
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Perhaps, but as you say, in most cases these were not mainly gods of death (save for the copy pasted ones from IRL religions). Mostly, the gods whose main work is "Death" are dudes like Nerull, Erithnul, Morgion, Cyric, Bhaal and Myrkul, among others.
As far as I know, Kelemvor was always praised by fans because he was also a non-evil deity of death, at least until all that debacle of the Wall of the Faithless... so, that kind of gods of death tend to be more attractive to the "new" generations of players that your standard "death is evil" gods. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 22 Sep 2021 03:10:07 |
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1286 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2021 : 11:04:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Perhaps, but as you say, in most cases these were not mainly gods of death (save for the copy pasted ones from IRL religions). Mostly, the gods whose main work is "Death" are dudes like Nerull, Erithnul, Morgion, Cyric, Bhaal and Myrkul, among others.
As far as I know, Kelemvor was always praised by fans because he was also a non-evil deity of death, at least until all that debacle of the Wall of the Faithless... so, that kind of gods of death tend to be more attractive to the "new" generations of players that your standard "death is evil" gods.
Aren't those gods fine with their priests summoning/commanding the undead? Some even encourage such behavior. I can't think of a single malevolent example (they're all bad to the bone...no pun intended) that adjudicates the fate of the dead and does nothing else. Those rare non-evil death gods that do allow their priests to call forth the dead for combat (e.g., Wee Jas) require that any animated undead explicitly grants their consent and/or that whatever constitutes mortuary/funerary customs are respected.
In 2e, Tormish Specialty Priests were permitted to command the undead strictly for defensive duties only; this dispensation allowed followers of The Loyal Fury to retain their boy scout status.
quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
Urogalan, Null, Segojan Earthcaller, Dumathoin, Sehanine_Moonbow, and Naralis Analor are all gods either of death or having duties/portfolios pertaining to the dead whom did not directly come from RW mythologies. I echo the sentiment that the FR does not have too many deities - Japan by itself has 128 gods listed on its wiki.
I completely forgot the demihuman deities. Oops  . |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2021 : 16:47:36
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Well, that is the thing: the Raven Queen is unlike these gods. She abhors undead, and save for the use of revenants (that are more a thing of the Fate domain and not something she can really control), she don't allow the use of undeads among her clergy.
And I didn't knew Sehanine was a goddess of death. But, that isn't her main job as well. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2021 : 18:21:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Perhaps, but as you say, in most cases these were not mainly gods of death (save for the copy pasted ones from IRL religions). Mostly, the gods whose main work is "Death" are dudes like Nerull, Erithnul, Morgion, Cyric, Bhaal and Myrkul, among others.
As far as I know, Kelemvor was always praised by fans because he was also a non-evil deity of death, at least until all that debacle of the Wall of the Faithless... so, that kind of gods of death tend to be more attractive to the "new" generations of players that your standard "death is evil" gods.
Just a note about Kelemvor, and I realize you may not see this since you started around 4e.... he's been a source of some disdain even prior to the wall of the faithless... people were a little upset when both Midnight and Cyric ascended, but then when Kelemvor suddenly became the god of the dead (so everyone but Adon amongst the characters from the Time of Troubles novels), there was an outcry about those characters being Mary Sues that all became gods.
What I personally noted was that Kelemvor and Osiris (different pantheons) had a very similar role and Kelemvor had a severe change in his personality. He had previously been a person who was cursed with a family curse that had warped over time, such that he could not do a good deed without transforming into a panther unless he asked for monetary compensation. He also had a tendency towards fury. I felt that perhaps Kelemvor had been subverted (as a "newborn" god) by the god Osiris, who himself had recently rejoined with his greater self and was no longer a manifestation since the end of the ToT. Thus, Osiris was just using Kelemvor's name (and possibly his deific "body" whenever the gods met). I personally don't think anyone else actually views this to have happened, and while I'm not typically in favor of god reductions, this one makes sense to me. I actually wonder if the Mulhorandi Pantheon may not have been trying similar actions to "invade" the Faerunian pantheon and grow their power where they could... for instance, Amaunator "returning" could have been Horus-Re making inroads.... the "return" of Waukeen after her being taken captive could have actually have involved Nephthys taking over her role surreptitiously... and we already know Set and Bast were already trying to expand into other god's roles. These are all easy replacements because odd things happened with those gods and the sages "in the know" wouldn't necessarily know. Other gods like Isis, Thoth, Anhur, Hathor, etc... become a lot harder and so I wouldn't attempt anything of the sort. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2021 : 18:40:20
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I don't think Kelemvor changed much at all. We saw it in the novels -- he wanted to do things without asking for reward, but he had no choice. As soon as the curse was lifted, he became who he wanted to be -- someone who helped others because he wanted to. Midnight even distrusted him, initially, because he agreed to help without asking for a reward.
The only real change came well after his apotheosis -- it was when the trial of Cyric made Kelemvor realized he was being too generous as a god of death and so he made a point of swinging back to neutral. I think that was likely easier for him because he'd had to spend so much of his life dealing with the curse. |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2021 : 19:06:15
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The proposal about Waukeen and Nephthys doesn't really work. Waukeen's imprisonment and rescue is covered in the 2e adventure For Duty and Deity. Nephthys couldn't have taken over her role while Waukeen was imprisoned because Waukeen had already passed her divinity to Lliira and it has been stated that Lliira acted as her regent in Waukeen's decade long absence. Certainly, Nephthys could have "possessed" Waukeen after her rescue and before she made it back to her realm where Lliira gave back her divinity but you would have thought there would have been an agreement between the two to make sure it was really Waukeen that had returned before transferring her power back.
It was mentioned in that adventure as an aftermath that Graz'zt might start a heresy in Waukeen's church that Waukeen didn't really come back and that it is actually a demon that has taken her place. Sadly, that was never fallowed up on in the 3e stuff about Waukeen but your suggestion sounds like something that Graz'zt might have tried. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2021 : 21:00:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't think Kelemvor changed much at all. We saw it in the novels -- he wanted to do things without asking for reward, but he had no choice. As soon as the curse was lifted, he became who he wanted to be -- someone who helped others because he wanted to. Midnight even distrusted him, initially, because he agreed to help without asking for a reward.
The only real change came well after his apotheosis -- it was when the trial of Cyric made Kelemvor realized he was being too generous as a god of death and so he made a point of swinging back to neutral. I think that was likely easier for him because he'd had to spend so much of his life dealing with the curse.
Oh, I deleted the sentence I meant to put of "this is an idea I've been playing with, but probably noone would accept". The change in personality I'm noting is AFTER he became a god and as you note, his swing to a different outlook. He wouldn't have been subsumed prior to that. I note as well, I'm not trying to say that's what happened, just that it works for a pretty good story to have the Mulan gods creeping into positions of power within Faerun's pantheon if one wanted to do such a story. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 22 Sep 2021 21:05:44 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2021 : 21:44:21
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| You know, the Amaunator=Horus-Re relationship is canon. According to "Backdrop: Chessenta" (Dungeon 178), the chessentans believed (at least, as of 4e) that Amaunator was a resurgent form of their ancient god Hokatep, that IIRC, is another name for Horus-Re. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2021 : 21:54:45
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| They counting Dungeon as official now? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2021 : 22:23:50
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
They counting Dungeon as official now?
It was always official, at least until the "nothing is canon!" announcement.
That said, this was 4E info about what people believed. It wasn't a statement that it was definitely this way, and even if it was, 5E's vague and problematic "all the gods are back!" undoes all the divine mashups that 4E did. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2021 : 23:19:33
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| On a related note, does anyone know if the "Backdrop: Chessenta" article is still available anywhere? I know a lot of the others were available as separate downloads, but I didn't grab that one. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1286 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2021 : 03:02:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Well, that is the thing: the Raven Queen is unlike these gods. She abhors undead, and save for the use of revenants (that are more a thing of the Fate domain and not something she can really control), she don't allow the use of undeads among her clergy.
She certainly gets points for embodying that Poe-esque aesthetic to a T.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It was always official, at least until the "nothing is canon!" announcement.
Ah! On a related note...I could have sworn I read a comment somewhere about how the separate materials of ALL editions are officially going to become canon, standing side-by-side.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
5E's vague and problematic "all the gods are back!" undoes all the divine mashups that 4E did.
Schrodinger's God  . The man has truly (heavily indirectly) achieved his own apotheosis. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2021 : 05:43:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It was always official, at least until the "nothing is canon!" announcement.
Ah! On a related note...I could have sworn I read a comment somewhere about how the separate materials of ALL editions are officially going to become canon, standing side-by-side.
Well, the official statement was something like each edition is now its own canon, separate from everything else, and nothing is canon for 5E unless the current team wrote it.
So editions built on what came before are now wholly independent of what came before... Which makes even less sense than some of the other 5E decisions. 
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
5E's vague and problematic "all the gods are back!" undoes all the divine mashups that 4E did.
Schrodinger's God . The man has truly (heavily indirectly) achieved his own apotheosis.
I consider it a huge problem because so many of the fallen deities have lost their portfolios to others -- so how can both be around? Also, "all" doesn't seem to actually mean all, since there's a lot of dead deities that haven't even been mentioned -- some of which haven't been mentioned for a couple of editions.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2021 : 15:58:46
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Regarding deities... if there's one thing that they need to get rid of, its not portfolios, but rather the idea that controlling a portfolio gives you absolute control over whatever it is. For instance, if Lathander has absolute control of the sun, then an elven god of the sun or Horus-Re controls what? I see no problem with there being multiple war gods in the Faerunian Pantheon for instance. People will pray to one or the other or even both. One might go weaker and the other stronger. One might be more prevalent in the north and the other the east. Each might choose some specific aspects of war to focus on in order to draw worshippers of all sorts to give prayers. Finally, mortals might come into conflict just because bravado OR messages sent by their god might implore them to try to take the other out to "show" people that prayers should go to them. To note, this matches up with what we know of portfolios, because as they were originally presented there was the idea that they might be shared, and it wasn't an absolute "I took this portfolio from that person and they can't use it anymore".
Now, in this scenario, exactly how someone who is the god of lies for instance gets power when someone lies... that would need to be considered. Essentially, does the committing of the act empower the god, or is it only when reverence for the god is given (i.e. please Leira don't let me get caught when I tell this lie). I'm open to option 2, and thus gods must impress their importance to these things in order to draw worship, and just "claiming a portfolio" doesn't work like some kind of pipeline for "reverence energy".
Of course, this idea that you can "steal" a portfolio might just be the first and greatest lie that Leira and Mask ever placed upon Cyric before she infected his mind. It's no wonder that the goddess of "loss" would further this theory that you can "lose a portfolio" to other people, since the idea was somehow empowering her as well.
This could also play into some of the stuff going into the whole Bane1.0/Gilgeam and Bane2.0/IyachtuXvim stuff we had been talking about and "Bane" being seen in a mortal form recently. If the Xvim is living off "Bane" prayers, then making a VISCERAL thing for people to think of (i.e. "yeah, I'm praying to that guy that just did bad stuff over in the heartlands") as they "pray to Bane" might be a quick way to circumvent and recover his former seat.... but doing so requires people to have something to picture as the entity... something that embodies what they're "sending" their prayer to. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 23 Sep 2021 16:22:46 |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1286 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2021 : 04:53:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Well, the official statement was something like each edition is now its own canon, separate from everything else, and nothing is canon for 5E unless the current team wrote it.
So editions built on what came before are now wholly independent of what came before... Which makes even less sense than some of the other 5E decisions.
Wow. That is...worse than I misremembered. You see, I thought that this was a "Kumbaya...we're all in this together and no one edition is superior to any other. Everything is valid; use whatever you enjoy." message that was effectively a bit of PR and ultimately nothing too serious.
This policy(?) effectively means that anything - landmarks, buildings, characters, the spirits of the deceased, magical items, spells, et cetera - which existed from AD&D to 4e only presently exists if an officially sanctioned 5e writer deems it to officially exist. Of course, the larger grain details are probably going to be fine (Sembia or, say, Silverymoon aren't going to be ignored), but how much good/interesting stuff is going to be sifted through the publishing filter because of laziness and/or finicky tastes?
Of course, individual DMs/players needn't worry...unless they're slavishly devoted to the idea of canon.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I consider it a huge problem because so many of the fallen deities have lost their portfolios to others -- so how can both be around? Also, "all" doesn't seem to actually mean all, since there's a lot of dead deities that haven't even been mentioned -- some of which haven't been mentioned for a couple of editions.
You've frequently mentioned that all it would take to remedy ("insert incongruity in later editions here") is a single sentence. Could it be that each 4e+ supplement with these gaping holes in logic coincidentally ran up to their allotted word count? You never know... . |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2021 : 11:50:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I consider it a huge problem because so many of the fallen deities have lost their portfolios to others -- so how can both be around? Also, "all" doesn't seem to actually mean all, since there's a lot of dead deities that haven't even been mentioned -- some of which haven't been mentioned for a couple of editions.
You've frequently mentioned that all it would take to remedy ("insert incongruity in later editions here") is a single sentence. Could it be that each 4e+ supplement with these gaping holes in logic coincidentally ran up to their allotted word count? You never know....
Some of their continuity screw-ups could have been fixed with just one or two sentences. Others... Others would take more. And some of them, I don't know that it's worth the effort. |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2021 : 11:41:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Perhaps, but as you say, in most cases these were not mainly gods of death (save for the copy pasted ones from IRL religions). Mostly, the gods whose main work is "Death" are dudes like Nerull, Erithnul, Morgion, Cyric, Bhaal and Myrkul, among others.
Nerull is an actual death god.
Erythnul isn't a death god. He was a war god before Hextor wrested that portfolio away; his role as the god of slaughter has less to do with death itself and more to do with how he conducted himself as a war deity.
Morgion is the god of disease. The Krynnish death god is Chemosh.
Myrkul was the god of the dead. 3e shot itself in the foot with this, but he wasn't associated with the act of dying itself; he was an underworld god the way Hades is. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1286 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2021 : 11:49:46
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Very true, LordofBones. When discussing "death gods", you have to specify whether you are talking about...
- ...undeath/the undead/necromancy.
- ...dying (maybe even murder?).
- ...the moment of death.
- ...judgement over the recently deceased.
- ...stewardship over the dead.
- ...chic gothic apparel.
- ...or some combination of the aforementioned domains.
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Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Scots Dragon
Seeker
United Kingdom
86 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2021 : 00:51:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Well, that is the thing: the Raven Queen is unlike these gods. She abhors undead, and save for the use of revenants (that are more a thing of the Fate domain and not something she can really control), she don't allow the use of undeads among her clergy.
So... like Kelemvor? |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2021 : 01:56:49
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| Yeah. She is like the genderbend version of Kel, actually. She was a mortal who killed the previos god of death and ascended to godhood thanks to that. But she is a bit different in that the other gods of the pantheon didn't like that and limited her so she cannot become more powerful, so she is searching for other paths to become stronger. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1286 Posts |
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Pet peeves: misconceptions about the Realms?
