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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Sep 2021 : 06:26:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It shows that orcs tend to be religious, but it does not prove your point. In fact, it disproves your point. Eldath would never force someone to follow her -- it would have to be their choice to stick to her teachings.
A bit of semantics here, but, it is really a choice when you're indoctrinated into it since you're a baby? It's a complicated topic, and i don't want to deviate this topic into it. Suffice to say that I think the Odonti are even more problematic than your regular orcs.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Again, just because we don't readily know of non-evil orc individuals, it doesn't mean they don't exist. I've already listed other "evil races" that have non-evil members -- what makes orcs so special that they and they alone can't be non-evil?
Have you read the description of the orcs in the monster manuals of any edition? Their entry in Volo's Guide to Monsters? At this point, if they don't show us in any book actually good orcs, I don't think they exists, at least in the official materials.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Also, I fail to understand why you think the WoW orcs are so much better. From what others have said here, they are a fallen people who, realizing they had fallen, shrugged their shoulders and said "Yeah, so?"
Is evil because of a deity really worse than evil because "we'll be evil because we don't want to bother fighting to get back to what we were"?
Those statements are really superficial stuff, based on the actions of individuals, while deliberately leaving out the actions of the good individuals. Or the actions of the evil individuals of the other races. The thing with Warcraft is that there is potential of corruption in every race of that universe. So, yeah, orcs may have invaded Azeroth and did terrible things... but the humans also did terrible things. And the elves. And the dwarves. Even the draenei did terrible things. Does this justify the deeds of the orcs? No. But it puts them in the same level as all the other races.
And while there are orcs like Orgrim Doomhammer, who continued the war against humans even after he learned the truth, there are orcs like Broxigar, who saved the whole world by sacrificing his life to stop Kil'jaeden. And the orcs aren't the only ones with super evil individuals who endanreged the world. We can start with the humans pointing out to Arthas Menethil or Daelin Proudmoore, who committed heinous crimes (and Arthas did BEFORE he was corrupted, even if he was supposed to be a paladin), and no one here has even suggested that all Warcraftian humans are evil becuase of them and must be eradicated from the face of the multiverse.
But to answer the question, nope, the Warcraftian orcs aren't evil. They are naturally prone to bloodlust. So while they are not naturally evil, they are naturally violent creatures. The Frostwolf clanis one of the few clans that shuns succumbing to the bloodlust, for instance, but the great majority of the orc population lives by it. And there is a world of difference between being evil and being just violent and more prone to make mistakes because you're impulsive.
This gives them a tragic element, as well. Compare that with the entry about the orcs in Volo's Guide to Monsters, and you'll at least understand why I prefer the Warcraft orcs over the FR orcs. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 10 Sep 2021 06:30:31 |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2021 : 06:28:44
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
[quote]Originally posted by LordofBones
Wait, when did the orcs atone? The moment the dust was settled, the orcs went back to attacking the night elves in Warsong Gulch. Even Saurfang simply says he stopped eating pork.
There is of course the irony in that D&D orcs are actually LESS evil than WC orcs. To date, D&D orcs didn't destroy their own planet with black magic, organize the breeding rape of a demi goddess to use her children as mounts and weapons, or even make anything even close to the Path of Glory.
Wait... what? I was busy playing Everquest 2 (hey, I liked the graphics better).... I never got the whole story of WoW (I did play the strategy games, but that's 20 years ago... I did like the demons duping them, etc...) but what's this about mounts and weapons?
During the second war, the Dragonmaw Clan kidnapped and imprisoned the Aspect of Life, Alexstrasza, and her consorts, and forced them to breed so that they could use the dragon-queen's eggs to hatch and train the peaceful and kindly red dragons into mounts and weapons for the Horde. Warchief Orgrim Doomhammer was delighted by this.
Many of those orcs are alive in the current Horde, and Doomhammer himself is not only considered an orc hero, but also had the capital city of the Horde named after him.
There is also a certain degree of horror in that Wrath of the Lich King shows that Alexstrasza's humanoid form is an extremely attractive redheaded woman with dragon horns.
The massive, massive problem is that Thrall had huge rose-coloured glasses on with regards to the orcs, and thought they were a peaceful shamanistic society in one with nature that were corrupted by demons. The real truth was magnitudes worse. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2021 : 06:58:10
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Yeah, those are pretty heinous crimes. Does that invalidates the fact that it was an orc, Broxigar, the one who saved the world during the War of the Ancients? Again, there are evil orcs in the Warcraft lore, but there are also good orcs as well. And I'm not justifying their crimes either. I'm just saying that for every evil orc there is also a good orc. Show me the good orcs in the FR lore, besides the Odonti, if there is one.
And don't bring stuff like "they idolize Doomhammer as hero" as it if were some hypocrisy, when the Alliance does the same with people of the same level of Doomhammer, like Daelin Proudmoore...
Also, Camp Taurajo. This was done not by orcs, but by humans.
https://eu.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/when-will-you-get-over-taurajo/202793/118 |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 10 Sep 2021 07:04:36 |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2021 : 07:04:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru XThose statements are really superficial stuff, based on the actions of individuals, while deliberately leaving out the actions of the good individuals. Or the actions of the evil individuals of the other races. The thing with Warcraft is that there is potential of corruption in every race of that universe. So, yeah, orcs may have invaded Azeroth and did terrible things... but the humans also did terrible things. And the elves. And the dwarves. Even the draenei did terrible things. Does this justify the deeds of the orcs? No. But it puts them in the same level as all the other races.
Not particularly, no.
Arthas was manipulated by the original Lich King...who was an orc. Literally nobody in the Alliance had any idea what he was up to in Northrend until he returned and murdered his father, and after that he was hunted down by the rebuilt Alliance.
Garithos was interesting in that he was a racist, but while there are entire arguments about Gary's racism, it should be noted that the one time he did trust a non-human and kept faith in his deal with her, Sylvanas betrayed him and had the remnants of Lordaeron's human armies and the dwarves under his command murdered. Also, he was Lordaeronian, so blame the Forsaken. Also, Kael'thas would end up prostituting himself to the Burning Legion after betraying Illidan, which makes the whole thing irony in action.
The draenei were nearly wiped out twice. The second time, they had their women forcibly bred by orcs and their corpses used to create a road from the Dark Portal to Hellfire Citadel. This is literally blaming the victim.
Medivh was literally possessed by Warcraft Satan.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly RupertAnd while there are orcs like Orgrim Doomhammer, who continued the war against humans even after he learned the truth, there are orcs like Broxigar, who saved the whole world by sacrificing his life to stop Kil'jaeden. And the orcs aren't the only ones with super evil individuals who endanreged the world. We can start with the humans a Arthas or Daelin Proudmoore, who committed heinous crimes, and no one here has even suggested that all warcraftian humans are evil becase of them and must be eradicated from the face of the multiverse.
Broxigar was also a war veteran, and the sequence of events that lead to him stabbing Sargeras in the foot happened AFTER his race slaughtered their way through the eastern half of another planet.
Arthas was covered earlier.
Daelin is literally a monster of the Horde's creation. There is no way you can discuss Daelin's "heinous crimes" without also discussing how it ties back to the Horde.
To recap, Daelin is a war veteran against the Horde who saw his son roasted alive by dragons under orcish control. He then votes for interning the orcs instead of putting every last one to the sword, and the financial strain of rehabilitating the orcs fractures the Alliance, with Quel'thalas and Gilneas leaving the Alliance. Stormwind is really in no shape to help, as the orcs wrecked it and Varian would spend much of his early reign rebuilding. Meanwhile, orcish bands still attack human and elven outposts and settlements where they can, until the orcs take advantage of the chaos in Lordaeron to steal Alliance ships.
And yes, you read "putting every last one to the sword" right. The Alliance's options were either internment or mass execution after the orcs had invaded Azeroth twice and slaughtered their way over the Eastern Kingdoms.
Daelin, Rogers, Varian...none of these one day rolled out of bed and said "TIME TO HATE SOME GREENSKINS!" |
Edited by - LordofBones on 10 Sep 2021 07:39:12 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2021 : 07:28:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Where does it say that orcs have no choice but to follow Gruumsh? Why is there this assumption that orcs are incapable of thinking for themselves?
Most elves worship Corellon (or some other Seldarine). I guess it's largely a sort of cultural thing, they could make other choices.
Most drow worship Lolth. They aren't given much choice, really, since the ones who choose "incorrectly" end up being sacrificed or dridered or worse.
Most orcs probably fall between these examples. They have a choice. But if they choose wrong (in orc culture) then their lives will become very short and unpleasant. |
[/Ayrik] |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2021 : 07:38:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru XYeah, those are pretty heinous crimes. Does that invalidates the fact that it was an orc, Broxigar, the one who saved the world during the War of the Ancients? Again, there are evil orcs in the Warcraft lore, but there are also good orcs as well. And I'm not justifying their crimes either. I'm just saying that for every evil orc there is also a good orc. Show me the good orcs in the FR lore, besides the Odonti, if there is one.
Why do you keep bringing up Broxigar? He was a veteran of the First and Second Wars (so yes, he was just as complicit in attempted genocide), was sad that he did not get an HONORABLE DEATH, and then only repented much later. None of this removes his complicity; you can acknowledge that he was both a mass murderer and a hero.
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru XAnd don't bring stuff like "they idolize Doomhammer as hero" as it if were some hypocrisy, when the Alliance does the same with people of the same level of Doomhammer, like Daelin Proudmoore...
You and I both know that Daelin Proudmoore was an Alliance hero long before Thrall was born. We also know that Daelin fought against the orcs, lost his son to dragons sent by orcs, lived through the orcs stealing away Alliance ships, and then came to Kalimdor searching for Jaina. There is no sane person who can blame the man for not believing the giant green homicidal aliens had turned over a new leaf after he'd seen said homicidal aliens slaughter their way through the Eastern Kingdoms.
The ironic thing is that he's proven right multiple times over. Even in vanilla, the orcs were attacking kal'dorei ancestral grounds...and the kal'dorei are a race of nature worshipers
As I said earlier, Daelin, Rogers, Varian...they're monsters of the Horde's creation; all the atrocities of orcish history coming back to bite them in the ass.
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru XAlso, Camp Taurajo. This was done not by orcs, but by humans.
https://eu.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/when-will-you-get-over-taurajo/202793/118
Look, Zero, I get you're passionate about the orcs, but Camp T is, first of all, a place to train tauren braves; second of all, the Alliance forces actually left gaps so that civilians can escape; third of all, it's not the Alliance's fault that the horde ran into the other other angry native of the Barrens, because the quillboar of the Barrens have good reason to hate the orcs and their allies.
Also, you neglected to mention the whole 'sentinel skinning' incident. You know, the part where the Twilight's Hammer flayed night elves and pinned the blame on the orcs, only for Garrosh to deny it by saying if he did it, he'd be boasting about it, and for Thrall refusing to investigate or turn over the perps to Alliance justice.
Also, there's the Broken Front.
And the Wrathgate.
Slavery, as Varian can attest to.
Camp T is a terrible hill to die on when Southshore was literally gassed and melted by the Horde. |
Edited by - LordofBones on 10 Sep 2021 07:40:25 |
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2021 : 09:08:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
In any case, my point doesn't change: in the end the warcraft orcs decided (or the writers decided for them), and for me THAT (the option of choice) is what makes them more interesting than FR orcs (IMHO), who have no option to decide for themselves. Gruumsh makes all the decisions for them, and they just follow suit because they "are evil" and must do evil things for evil's sake...
 You are kidding me, right? No, you gotta be trawling this board because there is no way you would have missed the fact that I pointed to a FR canon orc Paladin of TORM on Page 2 of this scroll!  But, hey, I only did research and read through various online and in-person texts to better understand the points of view others may have, that I spent time looking for references, and then posted those links in my posts so that people can understand where I am coming from.
I was originally going to gainsay the "FR orcs are more evil than the WoW orcs" because of the lack of opportunity for the FR orcs to have done the same as opposed to having had the choice presented to them. But the above statement has left me with negative thoughts. Time to take a break. |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2021 : 11:16:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It shows that orcs tend to be religious, but it does not prove your point. In fact, it disproves your point. Eldath would never force someone to follow her -- it would have to be their choice to stick to her teachings.
A bit of semantics here, but, it is really a choice when you're indoctrinated into it since you're a baby? It's a complicated topic, and i don't want to deviate this topic into it. Suffice to say that I think the Odonti are even more problematic than your regular orcs.
If indoctrination from birth made choice impossible, then we'd've never heard of Drizzt.
Or Elaith Craulnober.
Or any of the other examples that have already been mentioned.
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Again, just because we don't readily know of non-evil orc individuals, it doesn't mean they don't exist. I've already listed other "evil races" that have non-evil members -- what makes orcs so special that they and they alone can't be non-evil?
Have you read the description of the orcs in the monster manuals of any edition? Their entry in Volo's Guide to Monsters? At this point, if they don't show us in any book actually good orcs, I don't think they exists, at least in the official materials.
Yeah, and I've seen the same "always this alignment" listed for other types of critter that we have exceptions for.
So again: if other races can have exceptions, please explain why orcs are so different?
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2021 : 12:24:55
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quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
There is also Meriadar, a deity created during 2e specifically to be a faith for goblinoids who rejected the evil of their societies to turn to. Specifically for them to have a choice.
Of course, those same evil societies tend to persecute those who follow Meriadar, which can be used to explain why they are relatively unknown.
Jeff
I don't recall that one. What resource was it from Jeff? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2021 : 18:43:00
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quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
[quote]Originally posted by Zeromaru X
You are kidding me, right? No, you gotta be trawling this board because there is no way you would have missed the fact that I pointed to a FR canon orc Paladin of TORM on Page 2 of this scroll! But, hey, I only did research and read through various online and in-person texts to better understand the points of view others may have, that I spent time looking for references, and then posted those links in my posts so that people can understand where I am coming from.
I was originally going to gainsay the "FR orcs are more evil than the WoW orcs" because of the lack of opportunity for the FR orcs to have done the same as opposed to having had the choice presented to them. But the above statement has left me with negative thoughts. Time to take a break.
I didn't read that specific link, because of the stub banner in the Wiki article, my bad there. So, yeah there is this single orc paladin of Torm. But it seems he has done nothing to try to redeem his race. Heck, even Obould Many-Arrows did more for his race than this guy, and Obould was supposed to be Chaotic Evil... this paladin was an exception to the rule, but nothing more.
But hey, acknowledged. There was a single good orc in FR canon. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 10 Sep 2021 18:48:15 |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1286 Posts |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2021 : 00:56:34
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I think Zero's just irritated that orcs are evil and that their greatest empires were built by evil conquerors and warlords. The problem is that it's not really an issue; you can still have evil orcs with a successful kingdom.
Orcs are just a weird hill to die on. It's not like the token good guys of the other evil races have tried to redeem their kin; Driz'zt isn't exactly leading redemption efforts in the Underdark. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1286 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2021 : 01:57:24
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Driz'zt isn't exactly leading redemption efforts in the Underdark.
Chaotic Good is the battering ram used to break apart despotic nations. You want Neutral and/or Lawful Good forces to keep the peace/stability during the thereafter. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2021 : 04:58:38
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It also brings to mind how exactly you'd get these token good guys to get the rest of the race to fall in line. Drow being evil isn't the issue; it's that the drow have a society that only stays propped up through the machinations of a demon goddess - there's at least one enclave where drow wizards flipped off the clergy and became the dominant powerbrokers, and they're still doing pretty well.
Likewise, the orcs have seen Obould successful with the blessing of Almighty Gruumsh May his Farts Poison Corellon's Flowers, so following Gruumsh's example is something that's already proven to work. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2021 : 05:35:47
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Almighty Gruumsh May his Farts Poison Corellon's Flowers
This, sir, wins the internet for this day!  |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
549 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2021 : 05:38:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
A bit of semantics here, but, it is really a choice when you're indoctrinated into it since you're a baby? It's a complicated topic, and i don't want to deviate this topic into it. Suffice to say that I think the Odonti are even more problematic than your regular orcs.
Yeah, of course they still have a choice. It may be a tougher choice than otherwise, and they may not have easy access to information about other possibilities, but they still have a choice even if most go along with their indoctrination (and most of those that don't get killed, because that's what brutal indoctrinators do).
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
So, yeah there is this single orc paladin of Torm. But it seems he has done nothing to try to redeem his race.
Why should it be on him to try and redeem his whole race? Isn't it enough that he found a moral code and upheld it, despite what others around him expected, and he can thus be an example for other orcs who want a different life (that said, his death would also certainly be help up by the evil members of the race why trying to be different won't be successful)?
If someone were so inclined, they could even say this explains the change between 2e and 3e class restrictions, at least insofar as orcs are concerned.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
There is also Meriadar, a deity created during 2e specifically to be a faith for goblinoids who rejected the evil of their societies to turn to. Specifically for them to have a choice.
I don't recall that one. What resource was it from Jeff?
DMGR4 Monster Mythology, page 56. He's also the patron of mongrelmen, and preaches peace, understanding, etc. There's also some information about his proxies in Planescape (Planes of Law, specifically, that did a fair bit to expand him), one of whom is a bugbear (who preaches peace to Clangeddin's dwarves, much to the annoyance of some of the higher ups there). There's also an orc/ogre crossbreed high priest of Meriadar in one of the towns detailed in that box set.
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2021 : 17:28:27
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quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
So, yeah there is this single orc paladin of Torm. But it seems he has done nothing to try to redeem his race.
Why should it be on him to try and redeem his whole race? Isn't it enough that he found a moral code and upheld it, despite what others around him expected, and he can thus be an example for other orcs who want a different life (that said, his death would also certainly be help up by the evil members of the race why trying to be different won't be successful)?
I agree. There is no conceivable way that one orc could redeem the entire race, short of some sort of world-wide magical effect that forcibly changes them -- and even this would be highly questionable; is it truly redemption when it is entirely involuntary?
Taking that option out of the equation, our theoretical redemption-minded orc would have to travel all over the world, stopping and trying to redeem each of the tens of thousands of orc tribes he finds. He'd have to have Santa Claus's traveling abilities to be even be able to reach each tribe within his lifetime.
No, the better option is to show everyone he can -- orc and non-orc alike -- that orcs can be something other than raiders. Orcs would see that they could follow another path, and non-orcs would see that maybe interactions between orcs and non-orcs could be non-violent.
Even then, it'd take years -- maybe decades -- for orc and non-orc relations to normalize, within an area, and that assumes neither side reverts back to violence for some reason. Setting-wide, this kind of thing would take centuries. |
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Why not replace the orcs with Warcraft's orcs?
