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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Sep 2021 : 20:54:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Nuance, for starters... I just like these because they have an already built culture and society... Any orc culture that goes beyond the Tolkien-esque stereotype is good for me.
You mean like Gray Orcs, Scro, and Oscray? I hesitate to add Orogs to the list because there is pretty much a blank slate as to what their social norms are; however, they have developed technologies in metallurgical ore processing & refining plus having a few examples of orogs acting upon commitment based principles like honor-bound services or becoming a paladin.
And I forget this was said in another thread so - copy/paste/repost:
quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
Then forget the western orcs and look at the orcs of eastern Faerun. You have Thesk: "Sembia provided funds to hire mercenaries, and Zhentil Keep contributed 1000 Orcs... The Orcs decided to settle in the country, becoming 'civilized,' and the people of Thesk grew to accept them." Thay: "Orcs and half-orcs were well-tolerated within the badlands, as they were commonly found as enforcers and soldiers within Thayan legions." Ostraland: "... the region was populated by tribes of orcs in the mountains as well as humans and dwarves in the town of Palischuk, plus a growing population of half-orcs emerging from the confluence of these groups." And particularly the Gray Orcs around the Moonsea and Hordeland regions. All of these are minority populations with no real political representation in governance of the encompassing civilization or nation. The orc surface kingdoms (Illusk, Vastar, Uruth Ukrypt) of the past have all been destroyed by outside forces, often in waves of attacks from multiple sources (elves, dragons, dwarves, humans, goblinoids, other savage humanoids, etc...).
These examples had been dismissed as "losers" in that scroll because the orcs were minorities in their regions.
As for how welcome orcs are in Calimshan, or any of the Lands of Intrigue, wasn't there a genocidal purge by the humans of the orcs in "the South" in 1241 DR? This had been some five years after the Black Horde had slain the upper echelons of Amn, Tethyr, & Calimshan as they overran those nations, which leads me to believe that orcs remained in those regions to raid & harry the humans to this particular breaking point. "Surviving orcs remember this as the 'Year of Pushing Too Far,'" seems to me as a telling quote.
Purskul has few remaining orcs after a century of breeding and being raised in a human civilization. Add to that this tidbit, "half-orcs were looked down upon as second-class citizens," and the mental gymnastics necessary to wring out a positive existence for pure-blooded orcs would be exhausting. |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2021 : 21:53:12
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quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
As for how welcome orcs are in Calimshan, or any of the Lands of Intrigue, wasn't there a genocidal purge by the humans of the orcs in "the South" in 1241 DR? This had been some five years after the Black Horde had slain the upper echelons of Amn, Tethyr, & Calimshan as they overran those nations, which leads me to believe that orcs remained in those regions to raid & harry the humans to this particular breaking point. "Surviving orcs remember this as the 'Year of Pushing Too Far,'" seems to me as a telling quote.
Purskul has few remaining orcs after a century of breeding and being raised in a human civilization. Add to that this tidbit, "half-orcs were looked down upon as second-class citizens," and the mental gymnastics necessary to wring out a positive existence for pure-blooded orcs would be exhausting.
The orcs native to the southern Sword Coast were extinguished by dragons, genies, giants, elves and dwarves long before humans of the region started having a society.
The Black Horde (which was stopped in the south, didn't overran anything by the way) was an invading army and was destroyed, with mop up operations taking a few years. The difference with how things were done in the North being that some orcs were taken as prisoners and found freedom after indentured serviture and their offspring are free citizens of a human nation.
As you pointed out, when you start with a limited number of one population the bloodline gets diluted and so the half-orcs are what's left. In places where half-orc populations are all that's left of orcs, I think it's fair to check what's their situation. You can check page 51 of Empires of the Shining Sea for half-orcs in Calimshan, if you want.
I see you didn't mention Airspur and the Akana Peaks so I'm guessing you are ok with that example.
Going on a bit of a tangent, I would have loved for there to be a little bit more details on the religious practices of the orcs and their offspring that survived away from hordes and the Spine of the World: seems to me like that would have been a perfect place to switch emphasis from Gruumsh to the rest of the very small pantheon. This would have given them more nuance but I guess they ended up like the drow with their own version of "all Lolth, only Lolth". |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2021 : 00:26:23
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quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
You mean like Gray Orcs, Scro, and Oscray? I hesitate to add Orogs to the list because there is pretty much a blank slate as to what their social norms are; however, they have developed technologies in metallurgical ore processing & refining plus having a few examples of orogs acting upon commitment based principles like honor-bound services or becoming a paladin.
The scro and scroay aren't FR orcs, they are Spelljammer orcs. But, well, I didn't knew about them and, yeah, they look interesting, although still evil.
The Gray orcs are the same that started the Orcgate Wars? If so, then, well, they are not that different than the regular FR orc...
quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
And I forget this was said in another thread so - copy/paste/repost:
quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
Then forget the western orcs and look at the orcs of eastern Faerun. You have Thesk: "Sembia provided funds to hire mercenaries, and Zhentil Keep contributed 1000 Orcs... The Orcs decided to settle in the country, becoming 'civilized,' and the people of Thesk grew to accept them." Thay: "Orcs and half-orcs were well-tolerated within the badlands, as they were commonly found as enforcers and soldiers within Thayan legions." Ostraland: "... the region was populated by tribes of orcs in the mountains as well as humans and dwarves in the town of Palischuk, plus a growing population of half-orcs emerging from the confluence of these groups." And particularly the Gray Orcs around the Moonsea and Hordeland regions. All of these are minority populations with no real political representation in governance of the encompassing civilization or nation. The orc surface kingdoms (Illusk, Vastar, Uruth Ukrypt) of the past have all been destroyed by outside forces, often in waves of attacks from multiple sources (elves, dragons, dwarves, humans, goblinoids, other savage humanoids, etc...).
These examples had been dismissed as "losers" in that scroll because the orcs were minorities in their regions.
While interesting, these orcs are still invisible minorities. So, they have the same problems of the normal FR orcs: you need to be either evil to be something or just an invisible model minority... |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2021 : 00:27:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Point me out to interesting orcs in FR, that are not the problematic Odonti, then.
General Vrakk and his crew were interesting, to me.
Reading in the wiki, he was a neutral evil follower of Bane. What is the difference between him and your average orc warlord, besides alignment and religion?
He was part of the orc army that the Zhents sent to fight in King Azoun IV's Crusade against the Tuigan, and took some pride in it. Later, he was also involved in the Cyrinishad debacle, and when Zhentil Keep was falling, he and his forces held one or both of the bridges (it's been a while since I read the novel), causing the deaths of a lot of Keep folks but also confining the destruction to one side of the river.
I don't recall the exact line, but he said something like "You treat us like monsters, so we'll act like monsters."
So, in short, he wasn't the form-a-horde-and-kill-everything-in-sight type of orc we so often see -- he was one of the first ones in the Realms that was portrayed as an individual with his own motivations. Still evil, but not Chaotic Stupid.
He also hated Cyric and got all his military accolades while Bane was alive. Evidently the Black Lord preferred a meritocratic approach to recruitment. |
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2021 : 00:59:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
Going on a bit of a tangent, I would have loved for there to be a little bit more details on the religious practices of the orcs and their offspring that survived away from hordes and the Spine of the World: seems to me like that would have been a perfect place to switch emphasis from Gruumsh to the rest of the very small pantheon. This would have given them more nuance but I guess they ended up like the drow with their own version of "all Lolth, only Lolth".
That is not a tangent, Demzer, but one of the driving reasons for this scroll being made. To that point - Orogs, which were mountain orcs who became cutoff and retreated into the Underdark & evolved into something else, seem to have at least one tribe that worships Shar. The lore doesn't go into details about their society which leads me to the implication that it was unchanged from their origins but the canon characters show there is ample room for them to adopt different patrons.
But let's back up to the point of the Black Horde because I feel like there are some details that were missed. This horde "marched south along the Sword Coast and through Amn, Tethyr, and Calimshan. It brought war and laid siege to numerous settlements in these lands." Orcs of the Black Horde killed the Syl-Pasha and many other nobles of Calimshan during their invasion. So, yeah, I put a check mark by "invaded and ravaged" for the definition of overrun. This information becomes vague and contradicting after the invaion of Calimshan since the surviving Syl-Pasha's son was able to organize an army to oust the orcs with the words "Calimshan succeeded in defending against the Black Horde" in one source and "weakened the Calishite Army so severely that it succumbed to an invasion by the Black Horde of orcs two centuries later in 1235 DR. The Black Horde conquered Calimshan, as well as most of the western realms..." in another source.
I didn't mention anything about Airspur and Akanapeaks because I neither have knowledge of them nor have anything useful to say about them.
EDIT to add the following
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
The scro and scroay aren't FR orcs, they are Spelljammer orcs. But, well, I didn't knew about them and, yeah, they look interesting, although still evil.
The Gray orcs are the same that started the Orcgate Wars? If so, then, well, they are not that different than the regular FR orc...
Zeromaru X, are you willfully ignoring the points? FR orcs came from another world so your dismissal of the scro and oscray is utterly without merit. True, the scro have not colonized the FR planet but still managed to show up anyways. The oscray in particular are an offshoot of the scro that came about because they settled on the Malatran Plateau in Kara-tur.
The gray orcs are more civilized than their kin, which gives them greater possibilities for their culture. They are nomads whom do not strip the countryside bare before moving on because they return to established campgrounds as the seasons change. They also worship the orc gods equally, seeing Gruumsh as the head of the pantheon but not feeling bound to worship him ahead of the others and will instead choose a closer aligned patron deity. From Races of Faerun p65 "although gray orcs are comfortable with the savage life of the barbarian, they tend to be more calm and collected than northern orcs, focusing their rage & hatred inward," and "they lack the mountain orcs' drive to conquer and enslave." So, what is it about these guys you don't like other than they initially put the smack down on the mulan humans & their gods? |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
Edited by - SaMoCon on 07 Sep 2021 01:51:29 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2021 : 04:06:28
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quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
Zeromaru X, are you willfully ignoring the points? FR orcs came from another world so your dismissal of the scro and oscray is utterly without merit. True, the scro have not colonized the FR planet but still managed to show up anyways. The oscray in particular are an offshoot of the scro that came about because they settled on the Malatran Plateau in Kara-tur.
Nope, I'm just saying that these orcs are from another setting. I wasn't even aware of them as I don't own any Spelljammer books, that, as far as I know, have a lot of lore incompatibilities with the FR sources. My point being that while these orc may be said to appear in the FR world, they were created following a different design perspective (as Spelljammer is described as wonky). Not to dismiss the scro, just that they do not count as "FR orcs" to me. And they still have the problem of being "alignment: always evil".
As for the gray orcs, the wiki is not that useful in that regard. I'll have to check Races of Faerūn for a more informed opinion, but they seem to me to be the same "evil orcs followers of the evil orc gods" that kill and destroy because their gods demands it. cuz, really, the orc pantheon is super awful. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 07 Sep 2021 04:08:04 |
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2021 : 06:49:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
... problem of being "alignment: always evil".
I think we got to the point of your discontent. This, and only this, is your real gripe with the setting's orcs. Do you feel the same way about dragons? How about ogres? Mind flayers? Will-o-wisps? Surface elves? Ghouls? They all have racial alignments despite being independent creatures capable of abstract thoughts, ego, and philosophies.
The orc gods are D&D gods, not a whole lot that can be done about that, just like the orcs are D&D orcs. Those are problems you are having with playing D&D, so it is not an issue with the FR. But one thing that will fully help you that is super easy to do, swap the words "human" and "orc." Voila! Now you have an orc filled world with "interesting" cultures & nations, and the evil human barbarians that want to conquer it all. That solves the problem in a single go. Yes, I am being serious. |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2021 : 16:22:01
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
That left a power vacuum in that area. What took it's place?
Nothing. Sort of.
The way the plotline goes, from memory:
1. In 1484 DR, Many Arrows goes on a rampage, since the current clique in power - egged on by the drow - want to go back to the old ways of Gruumsh and conquest rather than existing in peace. It ends in the old-fashioned promotion method dubbed "dead men's pointy shoes" by Sir Terry Pratchett.
2. In 1485 DR, the Many Arrows orc horde swept against the various strongholds of the Silver Marches, putting Silverymoon, Mirabar, Sundabar, Mithral Hall, and so on all under siege. The leader of the horde is ultimately killed by Drizzt, and the Delzoun dwarves unite in a Divine-blessed march to break the morale/back of the horde.
3. All this happened before 1486 DR. Which is also the time period when all the Demon Lords are let loose in the Underdark, and Bruenor is reestablishing Gauntlgrym. It's havoc aboveground and below.
4. 1487 was the Year That Everything Got Worse. Gods stop answering the phone and send calls straight to voicemail. The Shadovar were also stuck in a guerrilla war with the Bedine for control of Anauroch. This goes about as well as you would think, and their fight accidentally starts awakening the phaerimm again. And of course Shade itself is crashed onto Myth Drannor and you have the Elminster/Larloch showdown. Shade and reborn-Netheril is officially finished as a regional power, and they're next door to/part of the North.
4. Disagreements made worse by all the collapsing and chaos reach a breaking point in late 1487 or so among the Silver Marches in the wake of the victory against the orcs, because Silverymoon dropped the ball on helping the dwarves against the orc horde. It culminated in the dwarf states of Luruar quitting, moving loyalties to Gauntlgrym to semi-reestablish the Delzoun empire (and a series of arcane gates are discovered in Gauntlgrym that actually allow instant, long-range teleportation between the various dwarf nation-states, meaning they don't have to walk from one to the other). Silverymoon didn't have the power to hang on without Sundabar, Mirabar, Felbarr, Adbar, Mithral Hall, and the rest, which ultimately lead to the Silver Marches dissolving in early 1488 DR.
5. The Lord's Alliance, which was still technically in existence, becomes resurgent. Various nation-states of what was Luruar sign up independently. So the Alliance gained Silverymoon, Mirabar, Mithral Hall, and I think one or two others. They work on trying to replace the Silver Marches, and Many Arrows, and so on as some sort of stabilising force in the North.
To cut a long story short, yes it created a power vacuum. In fact, the events of that decade ultimately created several power vacuums. The problem was partially that disasters kept on piling up and there doesn't seem to be enough rising powers yet that can fill them. The ones that try are getting cut down by the Harpers or less-commonly the Lord's Alliance. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2021 : 19:13:53
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I'm thinking part of the point was to get rid of Luruar as a faction.
Luruar was another of those developments that had potential, but then a new design team decided to mostly ignore it and kick it to the side. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2021 : 02:42:27
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quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
... problem of being "alignment: always evil".
I think we got to the point of your discontent. This, and only this, is your real gripe with the setting's orcs. Do you feel the same way about dragons? How about ogres? Mind flayers? Will-o-wisps? Surface elves? Ghouls? They all have racial alignments despite being independent creatures capable of abstract thoughts, ego, and philosophies.
The orc gods are D&D gods, not a whole lot that can be done about that, just like the orcs are D&D orcs. Those are problems you are having with playing D&D, so it is not an issue with the FR. But one thing that will fully help you that is super easy to do, swap the words "human" and "orc." Voila! Now you have an orc filled world with "interesting" cultures & nations, and the evil human barbarians that want to conquer it all. That solves the problem in a single go. Yes, I am being serious.
Actually, that doesn't solve the problem. It only changes its owner. Why not have orcs than can be evil and good and all in between instead of mono-alignment species?
A better way to fix this is to get rid of alignment altogether, and make them behave like normal people. Because really, alignment it is a poor way to describe the "ethical and moral perspective" of a fictional character.
However, alignment is not the only problem I have with D&D orcs. And I have fixed that by giving the orcs of my campaign a "warcratian flavor". |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2021 : 08:03:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
And I have fixed that by giving the orcs of my campaign a "warcratian flavor".
I'm not well versed in Warcraft lore and the discussion in this scroll just muddled the water for me (lots of references but all seemed to portray the same-ish picture of orc society). So would you mind sharing which changes you made and what effect they had in your campaign? Big changes, small changes, historical ones, just an anecdote, whatever, but it would help me understand better what the fix was. |
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2021 : 11:34:14
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Y'know, Zeromaru X, you keep using this word "always," but in my MM 3.0 it says the word "usually." That book was released in October of 2000 which means the material is going to turn 21 next month. But it is a racial alignment, and you may not like it, but it fits the orcs as envisioned and fleshed out in D&D and imported into the FR. Funny thing, it also fits the orcs of Warcraft. They had no problem slaughtering the dranei (or whatever they're called) before becoming corrupted (the demon blood corruption wasn't introduced to the orcs until the eve of the final assault on the dranei's last stronghold) so the original point on that stands. Even after the WoW orcs realized they were duped and changed leadership, they still continued their path of slaughter until the end. The choices between right & wrong just kept landing on wrong, and I have spent hours reading lore for a game that I don't play to find some altruistic thing that the WoW orcs have done that wasn't really self-serving. Maybe I'll find something if I look hard enough but that is a lot of "bad" I have already waded through such that I agree with the Goblin Slayer at this point.
Alignments are part of D&D, integral to the functions of powers, classes, and extra-dimensional energies. But FR courts do not have clerics sitting as or with judges determining who is guilty of crimes, and they do not have paladins as super-cops finding the evil member of society for extrajudicial punishments. My interpretation of this from the 3E/PF point of reference is that racial alignments are determined by the makers of each race since it is an aura of the creator's energies. Orcs show up as chaotic evil and surface elves show up as chaotic good regardless of their personal morals & ethics unless they acquire an aura of their own. Orcs were made by Gruumsh in his image. You may personally detest who Gruumsh and his pantheon are including their ideaologies because they are abhorrent & alien but they are also winning. Every horde is bigger than the last and reaches farther than before by 3E (I neither know nor care about after). Every bastion meant to buffer or break the orc hordes has been broken instead. The orc conquest is a "when," not an "if," as this has been playing out from the moment that orcs first came to the FR to the 14th century (again, I don't care about the 15th century because I won't waste a red cent on genre destroying RSEs that insist on making everything I already invested money into absolutely worthless while replacing stuff with things that make less sense than what was there before). |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1286 Posts |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2021 : 17:32:56
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quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
Y'know, Zeromaru X, you keep using this word "always," but in my MM 3.0 it says the word "usually." That book was released in October of 2000 which means the material is going to turn 21 next month. But it is a racial alignment, and you may not like it, but it fits the orcs as envisioned and fleshed out in D&D and imported into the FR.
I guess that, since I seem knowledgeable about Realmslore, it is safe to asume that I'm actually knowledgeable about Realmslore  but truth to be told, most of my "knowledge" comes from the FR Wiki. I do own a few 3.e pdfs, but save for the draconic related ones (Dragons of Faerūn, Dragons of Eberron, etc.), I haven't read them in full. I started to DM in 4e, so, I'm knowledgeable about Realmslore form 4e onwards.
And, at least in 5e, they are supposed to be "always evil" and not intelligent and that stuff (per Volo's Guide to Monsters). Since the new books overwrite the old ones (at least in the official canon, that is), whatever they say in a 3.x book holds little to no value today (in the official canon, I mean)...
quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
Funny thing, it also fits the orcs of Warcraft. They had no problem slaughtering the dranei (or whatever they're called) before becoming corrupted (the demon blood corruption wasn't introduced to the orcs until the eve of the final assault on the dranei's last stronghold) so the original point on that stands.
Actually, according to the wiki:
quote:
After investigating of the world, the powerful demon lord Kil'jaeden tricked the head shaman Ner'zhul by appearing as a spirit of an orc ancestor. He convinced Ner'zhul that the draenei were conspiring against the orcs, and were planning on attacking. Ner'zhul began raiding the draenei hoping to be the savior of his race.
So, they were manipulated by demons to do that. Again, my point is that the FR orcs wouldn't have need the manipulation to attack, they just have attacked because the draenei where standing there. On the other hand, the Warcraft orcs wouldn't have attacked the draenei if they hadn't been manipulated to do that. And for me that is a really important difference.
And yes they continued the attack, because that was Kil'jaeden's plan all along. The orcs never actually realized they were being duped until it was way too late to do anything to reverse the damage. And actually, the only one who knew they were being duped was Ner'zhul (meaning, just a single individual), and the demons quickly replaced him with Gul'dan to lead the orcs. So, only one individual knew the truth, the other ones were completely ignorant of what was actually happening until the end.
So, yeah. I do like the agency of the Warcraft orcs. They did horrible things, yeah. And when they realized what they have done, they tried to atone for it (in Warcraft 3 and World of Warcraft).
If this had been the FR orcs, they just would have donde it because "they are evil", and even if they knew the truth, they would have cared little and continued to do it anyways, because "they are evil". They have no nuance.
quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
Alignments are part of D&D, integral to
So integral that even Gary Gygax dished them out in the end, lol...
And I like yor interpretation. But it is just that. YOUR interpretation, not something official. Is how yo fixed things for your campaign.
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
I'm not well versed in Warcraft lore and the discussion in this scroll just muddled the water for me (lots of references but all seemed to portray the same-ish picture of orc society). So would you mind sharing which changes you made and what effect they had in your campaign? Big changes, small changes, historical ones, just an anecdote, whatever, but it would help me understand better what the fix was.
Sure. When I'm home, I'll write abot it. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 08 Sep 2021 17:34:43 |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1286 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2021 : 21:51:45
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Otherwise...no. The orcs of Warcraft are built like ogres  . Regular D&D orcs are roughly as tall as humans, but with some additional muscle that reflects their predominantly martial culture. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2021 : 22:22:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Otherwise...no. The orcs of Warcraft are built like ogres . Regular D&D orcs are roughly as tall as humans, but with some additional muscle that reflects their predominantly martial culture.
And lorewise, there is a reason for that. Warcraft orcs are a sub-species of the warcraft ogres. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 08 Sep 2021 22:23:20 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2384 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2021 : 22:38:05
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I suppose Warcraft orcs would fit well in WoWcraft edition... 
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
I think the aim is to remove all association with the dull, flavourless, generic imitation brand 5e orc (basically a green human) and make it into something different, more unique and interesting.
But how does it make any sense to replace something mostly decent with crud and then try to fix said crud (let alone two layers thereof)?
It takes infinitesimal effort to ignore all the dull, flavourless, generic imitation brand 5e stuff in the first place. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
Edited by - TBeholder on 08 Sep 2021 22:40:33 |
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2021 : 23:03:26
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If I may, Zeromaru, simplify the facts of the events. One orc was lied to by a demon. That orc told the rest to wipe out the dranei. Butchery ensued. The word of one orc was enough. But it wasn't the Ner'zhul-replaced-by-Gul'dan change of leadership that I was pointing to in my earlier statement. Gul'dan was "would sell his own mother into slavery for a buck" kind of evil. The fact that none of the other tribal shamans could put the escalating slaughter of the dranei together with the turning away by their spirits resulting in a loss of their powers to see that one was a direct consequence of the other is a bit hard to swallow, but that is the WoW lore and I digress...
I was actually referring to when Doomhammer took over the Horde by killing Blackhand, exterminating the Shadow Council, and barely staying his hand from executing Gul'dan. Doomhammer knew differently about the corruption & the root causes, which is why he violently purged the orcs' leadership; however, he still moved forward with the eradication of the people of Azeroth. The orcs created misery before this point and created more misery after this point instead of trying to reach out and peaceably come to a solution.
What did WoW orcs do to improve things for the other WoW races that did not involve violence or have the continued existence of the orc race as a benefit?
I am also wondering why you think being evil is an inability to do anything but destroy? King Obould Many Arrows did something that pleased you immensely enough that when it was wiped out in later editions by other authors you actively wrote (typed?) your disgust with that turn of events. That orc was still Chaotic Evil. |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2021 : 00:56:23
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Would I have to blame and decide that all humanity must be killed because of the deeds of Fzoul Chembryl or Manshoon, then? Yeah, the orcs followed their leaders and paid for it. And ultimately, I don't defend their acts, because were horrible deeds. What I like is that they have agency. They did it because they thought at the moment that was the best course of action for x reasons, and not all took part on it (there is Durotan, for instance, that stopped when he began to realize what they were doing). Not because they are evil and can't do anything else but do evil things.
And I don't take "evilness" as inability, but that is the only answer they give when I ask "why FR orcs attack the other races instead of negotiating with them or something". And with answer I mean official answer. I've been seen a few answers here that are better than the official one, to be honest, but those are interpretations of you guys.
And yes, Obould is an special individual and did great things. And they (WotC) undid all of that, and with it my interest in the FR orcs... |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 09 Sep 2021 01:53:01 |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2021 : 09:14:16
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Wait, when did the orcs atone? The moment the dust was settled, the orcs went back to attacking the night elves in Warsong Gulch. Even Saurfang simply says he stopped eating pork.
There is of course the irony in that D&D orcs are actually LESS evil than WC orcs. To date, D&D orcs didn't destroy their own planet with black magic, organize the breeding rape of a demi goddess to use her children as mounts and weapons, or even make anything even close to the Path of Glory. |
Edited by - LordofBones on 09 Sep 2021 09:34:01 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2021 : 18:02:10
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Wait, when did the orcs atone? The moment the dust was settled, the orcs went back to attacking the night elves in Warsong Gulch. Even Saurfang simply says he stopped eating pork.
Well, yes. Blizzard needed money, so they needed to create needless conflict between the Alliance and Horde, and gave us whatever shoddy explanation they came up with. That is the actual truth of this, really: the writers decided how they want the story to go onwards. I can give you a lot of reasons why this happened in-universe, but that would be just thermian arguments.
In any case, my point doesn't change: in the end the warcraft orcs decided (or the writers decided for them), and for me THAT (the option of choice) is what makes them more interesting than FR orcs (IMHO), who have no option to decide for themselves. Gruumsh makes all the decisions for them, and they just follow suit because they "are evil" and must do evil things for evil's sake.
Since the warcraftian orcs have the choice of "decision-making", I can make them decide differently in my campaigns.
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
There is of course the irony in that D&D orcs are actually LESS evil than WC orcs. To date, D&D orcs didn't destroy their own planet with black magic, organize the breeding rape of a demi goddess to use her children as mounts and weapons, or even make anything even close to the Path of Glory.
I'm sure that if I delve deep enough into D&D lore, I can find an instance where D&D orcs have committed something like you describe. But I have no energy or time for that. In the end it all boils down to my personal preferences vs your personal preferences. If you're ok with the FR orcs as they are, good for you.
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Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 09 Sep 2021 18:04:57 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2021 : 18:47:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
In any case, my point doesn't change: in the end the warcraft orcs decided (or the writers decided for them), and for me THAT (the option of choice) is what makes them more interesting than FR orcs (IMHO), who have no option to decide for themselves. Gruumsh makes all the decisions for them, and they just follow suit because they "are evil" and must do evil things for evil's sake.
Where does it say that orcs have no choice but to follow Gruumsh? Why is there this assumption that orcs are incapable of thinking for themselves?
Sure, we've not seen many examples of non-Gruumsh worshipping orcs -- but that doesn't mean they don't exist. Orcs have never been given a favorable spotlight, but we have passing mentions here and there of non-Gruumsh orcs. There are no noteworthy individuals I can think of, but I easily could have forgotten some or just never read about them.
But assuming that a lack of coverage means that they can't exist is like assuming there were no good drow at all, anywhere, before Drizzt.
We've seen other good (or at least neutral) members of evil races -- off the top of my head, I can think of a beholder, a goblin, an illithid, at least one red dragon, and even before the recent drow retcon, there were multiple examples of non-evil drow. Heck, Planescape lore includes good and neutral fiends.
So why the assumption that orcs are somehow different and are incapable of choosing for themselves?
I need to see where it explicitly states that all orcs worship Gruumsh and/or that they are incapable of thinking for themselves before I'll agree that there needs to be a change. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 09 Sep 2021 18:48:43 |
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deserk
Learned Scribe
Norway
237 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2021 : 20:59:07
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If good drow exist there is no reason to suppose there are not good individuals among all the other classically "evil" races, like derro, duergar, goblinoids, illithids, etc. It's just that they are largely overshadowed by the standard archetype. In AD&D drow were originally an only evil race before FR came to the fray with Eilistraeens and specifically Drizzt.
And personally I have no interest in seeing FR's orcs become like Warcraft's orcs. They should be what they are or how Ed intended them to be. They just need to expanded and given more depth.
It would also be interesting to see more material done on specifically Orogs (whom are known as expert weapon and armour smiths as well as city builders according to 3E Underdark) and Grey Orcs (whose lore would suggest they have a slightly less antagonistic relationship with humans than say Mountain Orcs do in the North. Perhaps they even openly travel in the parts of the Unapproachable East). |
Edited by - deserk on 09 Sep 2021 21:02:05 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2021 : 22:06:04
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Wait, when did the orcs atone? The moment the dust was settled, the orcs went back to attacking the night elves in Warsong Gulch. Even Saurfang simply says he stopped eating pork.
There is of course the irony in that D&D orcs are actually LESS evil than WC orcs. To date, D&D orcs didn't destroy their own planet with black magic, organize the breeding rape of a demi goddess to use her children as mounts and weapons, or even make anything even close to the Path of Glory.
Wait... what? I was busy playing Everquest 2 (hey, I liked the graphics better).... I never got the whole story of WoW (I did play the strategy games, but that's 20 years ago... I did like the demons duping them, etc...) but what's this about mounts and weapons?
Oh, and just because I have never seen anything to tell us WHERE they came from.... it MIGHT be a good idea to have the orcs of the north (i.e. the mountain orcs) having come to Toril because of a demonic influence similar to what happened with the WoW orcs. What if they were turned by a demon who attempted to take them from Gruumsh, and it was Gruumsh who freed them? Maybe Gruumsh wasn't even known to these orcs until he arrived because of the orcgate wars. Maybe they were brought here by some renegade group of giants of Ostoria that worshipped a being like Kostchtchie whose focus is on rage.... or maybe like the orcs that are now in Maztica they were transformed by the divine power of a god/demon lord in some "bloodforged" ritual. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 09 Sep 2021 22:22:32 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2021 : 23:18:49
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Wait, when did the orcs atone? The moment the dust was settled, the orcs went back to attacking the night elves in Warsong Gulch. Even Saurfang simply says he stopped eating pork.
There is of course the irony in that D&D orcs are actually LESS evil than WC orcs. To date, D&D orcs didn't destroy their own planet with black magic, organize the breeding rape of a demi goddess to use her children as mounts and weapons, or even make anything even close to the Path of Glory.
Wait... what? I was busy playing Everquest 2 (hey, I liked the graphics better).... I never got the whole story of WoW (I did play the strategy games, but that's 20 years ago... I did like the demons duping them, etc...) but what's this about mounts and weapons?
Oh, and just because I have never seen anything to tell us WHERE they came from.... it MIGHT be a good idea to have the orcs of the north (i.e. the mountain orcs) having come to Toril because of a demonic influence similar to what happened with the WoW orcs. What if they were turned by a demon who attempted to take them from Gruumsh, and it was Gruumsh who freed them? Maybe Gruumsh wasn't even known to these orcs until he arrived because of the orcgate wars. Maybe they were brought here by some renegade group of giants of Ostoria that worshipped a being like Kostchtchie or Vaprak whose focus is on rage.... or maybe like the orcs that are now in Maztica they were transformed by the divine power of a god/demon lord in some "bloodforged" ritual.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2021 : 23:52:05
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Hmmm, my last response makes me wonder two things that I'll expound upon more.... and lets see where it takes us
A) Just how much DO we know about the history of the mountain orcs of the north? I mean, when did they first appear? Was it before or after the rise of Netheril (I'm assuming before, but....)? Is there a chance that LIKE the orcs of Maztica.... they are transformed humans rather than imports from another world? From the races of Faerun entry for orogs, we know that the "Skullbiter" orc tribe that became the orogs was around in -3605 in the "first orc horde to attack the southern lands". Hmm, orog entry also states that they "brought the worship of Gruumsh with them" into the underdark, so Gruumsh had to be around at least that far back.
B) We have Races of Faerun telling us about the 4 subraces of orcs IN FAERUN (mountain orcs, half orcs, gray orcs, and orogs), but what do we know of the OTHER orcs of TORIL who aren't in Faerun? The color of orc skin has a WIDE range of colorations if we accept the idea of the scro (Hide color ranges from slate gray, burnt orange, light tan, and moss green, to jet black and even, in rare cases, albino white), so they might be very different elsewhere.
What are some of these?
We also have the "red orcs" and "black orcs" that were created by Thayan experimentation (or as the thayans call them "neo-orogs") by magically breeding them with ogres "and other creatures". It might be interesting if they were created by breeding them to ogres and hagspawn of Rashemen.
We have the orcs of Maztica, that came about as a result of the "Night of Wailing" and a divine curse.... some believe because of Lolth... others might believe Zaltec... but they were humans that were transformed into 4 different "species"... orcs, ogres, jagres (shapeshifting ogres that can become jaguars), and trolls. This happened sometime around 1362 (can maybe find the date if I look). Were they supposed to be a "hint" that Zaltec was "secretly" Vaprak since 3 of the 4 races are known to be "his children"? What do THESE orcs look like? Personally, at this second, I like the idea if they are very bestial and more like the "classic" orc of 1st edition. Maybe they're green skinned with broad if not porcine noses and big like gamorrean guards? Should we possibly "change up" the 4 races that they were changed into, since it seems the point of the original was to make them "bestial" humanoids, but since then we've had many editions? For instance, perhaps the divine curse awakened some latent bloodline of hags and ogre magi that had hidden in plain sight in their society (much like the drow were doing), and the people became hagspawn and half-ogres, some of whom were further cursed with lyncanthropy as werejaguars.
What other orcs are there in the world?
We have the Oscray in Malatra who are Scro offshoots, so we have an idea of their origins (and these, while gray skinned have the piglike snout).
We have orcs in Zakhara, but unlike other areas, THESE orcs live right alongside the humans, elves, dwarves, and goblins. Racial disharmony in Zakhara is little known (at least not in the "civilized" areas) as long as the people accept the current political climate.... or as some may see it, they've sold out their culture in order to survive in the shadows of the human culture of Zakhara (as have the elves, dwarves, ogres, goblins, etc...).
What about in Kara-Tur (besides Malatra)? Were there any extensive mentions of orcs? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2021 : 01:00:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I need to see where it explicitly states that all orcs worship Gruumsh and/or that they are incapable of thinking for themselves before I'll agree that there needs to be a change.
You're right about this. The only orcs I know of that are not Gruusmh-drived are the Odonti, that are Eldath-driven. Which still proves my point: the FR orcs have no power of choice for themselves. They need a god (be Gruumsh, be Eldath) deciding for them.
I have to admit that the Scro are pretty cool, however. Had I knew about them when WotC destroyed Many-Arrows and I decided to make my orcs different in response, perhaps I would have used them instead of the Warcraftian orcs.
quote:
Originally posted by deserk
And personally I have no interest in seeing FR's orcs become like Warcraft's orcs. They should be what they are or how Ed intended them to be. They just need to expanded and given more depth.
This would be the ideal scenario. But when they did expanded upon orcs in 5e we got Volo's Guide to Monsters. And that was what made me look to orc depictions in other fictions, to begin with. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 10 Sep 2021 01:04:03 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2021 : 02:34:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I need to see where it explicitly states that all orcs worship Gruumsh and/or that they are incapable of thinking for themselves before I'll agree that there needs to be a change.
You're right about this. The only orcs I know of that are not Gruusmh-drived are the Odonti, that are Eldath-driven. Which still proves my point: the FR orcs have no power of choice for themselves. They need a god (be Gruumsh, be Eldath) deciding for them.
It shows that orcs tend to be religious, but it does not prove your point. In fact, it disproves your point. Eldath would never force someone to follow her -- it would have to be their choice to stick to her teachings. If they opted to walk away, she'd wish them well -- and maybe even send someone to watch over and protect them.
Again, just because we don't readily know of non-evil orc individuals, it doesn't mean they don't exist. I've already listed other "evil races" that have non-evil members -- what makes orcs so special that they and they alone can't be non-evil?
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
I have to admit that the Scro are pretty cool, however. Had I knew about them when WotC destroyed Many-Arrows and I decided to make my orcs different in response, perhaps I would have used them instead of the Warcraftian orcs.
I love the scro, myself... But I'd not swap them for orcs, in the Realms, because that would be changing the setting to fix a problem that simply does not exist.
Also, I fail to understand why you think the WoW orcs are so much better. From what others have said here, they are a fallen people who, realizing they had fallen, shrugged their shoulders and said "Yeah, so?"
Is evil because of a deity really worse than evil because "we'll be evil because we don't want to bother fighting to get back to what we were"? |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 10 Sep 2021 02:38:39 |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
549 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2021 : 04:05:15
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There is also Meriadar, a deity created during 2e specifically to be a faith for goblinoids who rejected the evil of their societies to turn to. Specifically for them to have a choice.
Of course, those same evil societies tend to persecute those who follow Meriadar, which can be used to explain why they are relatively unknown.
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2021 : 04:55:39
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quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
There is also Meriadar, a deity created during 2e specifically to be a faith for goblinoids who rejected the evil of their societies to turn to. Specifically for them to have a choice.
Of course, those same evil societies tend to persecute those who follow Meriadar, which can be used to explain why they are relatively unknown.
Jeff
Indeed. Not everyone can get the same plot armor as Lord Ginsu does. He not only got plot armor, he got exceptional combat training in a place known for producing skilled combatants, and somehow consistently managed to run into people that would have no reason to trust a drow and yet decided to trust this one anyway.
It's easy to succeed when everything is handed to you. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Why not replace the orcs with Warcraft's orcs?
