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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Sep 2021 : 13:15:04
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After these arguments have showed up in other scrolls to the point that no one was talking about the original topics anymore, it is past time to have a scroll dedicated to the subject.
Orcs of the FR are not that much more physically impressive than humans, have dogmatic gods bent on world conquest, invaded the realms from another world, build up impressive numbers if left unmolested for too long, and embark upon grand rampages as their hordes victoriously crash through civilizations until they hit a "bridge too far" moment with the survivors returning to their lands with loot or seeding the region with warbands still hungry for more. There are people who call these perennial raiders "losers" because they do not set up town halls in the lands that they have raided, elect political leaders leaders to fill those halls, hang up their war axes, and start plowing fields. The "noble savage" or "medieval fantasy klingon" visions seem to be driving these desires for all orcs to suddenly want peaceful relations with the other races of Faerun.
I figure, this is the perfect scroll for everyone to actually air out the WoW-ification of the FR Orcs and why everything should be rewritten or not.
FR Orcs
Orcs are not native to the world. They have a home world.
Their invasion has wrought incredible suffering upon the world.
They thrive in areas of the world where lawkeeper races find difficulty surviving.
They have repeatedly accumulated hordes of warriors to be unleashed onto peaceful people just going about their lives.
Their endeavors & efforts are only for the advancement of orcs.
Dragons, giants, monstrous humanoids, and other humanoids target orcs for eradication, subjugation, or simply to drive them away.
Orc culture, society, government, and religion demands that orcs stand as the conquerors of the world with the rest being either enslaved or exterminated.
So why twist this image of the FR orc?
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Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2021 : 15:06:47
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Also, appearance-wise, they are already close to the Warcraft orc (2e Monstrous Manual):
"Orcs vary widely in appearance, as they frequently crossbreed with other species. In general, they resemble primitive humans with grey-green skin covered with coarse hair. Orcs have a slightly stooped posture, a low jutting forehead, and a snout instead of a nose, though comparisons between this facial feature and those of pigs are exaggerated and perhaps unfair. Orcs have well-developed canine teeth for eating meat and short pointed ears that resemble those of a wolf. Orcish snouts and ears have a slightly pink tinge. Their eyes are human, with a reddish tint that sometimes makes them appear to glow red when they reflect dim light sources in near darkness. This is actually part of their optical system, a pigment which gives them infravision. Male orcs are about 5½ to 6 feet tall. Females average 6 inches shorter than males. Orcs prefer to wear colors that most humans think unpleasant: blood red, rust red, mustard yellow, yellow green, moss green, greenish purple, and blackish brown. Their armor is unattractive besides dirty and often a bit rusty." |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2021 : 15:21:35
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| If these orcs and those orcs are so similar, so interchangeable ... why is there any need to replace one with the other anyhow? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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ElfBane
Learned Scribe
USA
275 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2021 : 16:06:37
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| I prefer to stay with the Tolkien lore; Orcs are corrupted Elves. |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2021 : 16:35:36
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| Well, it is up to every DM on how their game goes. They could always flip orc and humans so that it is the human hordes that cause so much destruction. In an infinite multiverse, there is a place that is like that. It may even be the orc's homeworld. A slumped over Elminster with pointed ears, a snout, and pronounced canines would be interesting. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2021 : 17:09:47
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quote:
Originally posted by ElfBane
I prefer to stay with the Tolkien lore; Orcs are corrupted Elves.
Elves tortured, twisted, defiled, and corrupted by Sauron (and his servants)?
A foul race of subterranean monsters bred in darkness, fire, and slime by Morgoth?
An inspired instrument of destruction hammered through sorcery on a forge of blood, mud, iron, and pain by Melkor? Fashioned not through the Flame Imperishable (the spark of life Melkor could never obtain) but instead through his endless burning rage and fear and lust and hatred, a mockery of other races?
A bestial race from another world? Created by "Eru's lost children" - "siblings" of the Ainur who are said to sing their own creation song "in unseen places beyond that which is known as Middle Earth"?
Tolkien & Tolkien offered lore with each of these contradictory origins. Each is as valid as any other.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc#In-fiction_origins |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 05 Sep 2021 17:23:41 |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2021 : 17:27:05
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| My favourite type of Orcs are the Warhammer Fantasy ones, personally. Or Orks, if you would rather the Warhammer 40,000 version. In essence: British football hooligans. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4426 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2021 : 17:32:30
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| Probably because not ALL FR Orcs are like that, and not even discounting a selected few individuals but an entire nation of them for over a century (Kingdom of Many-Arrows) and cities like Palischuk (they're half-orc, I know). |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2021 : 17:49:26
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| Just one thing to bring up, and I'd honestly have to research the lore... I don't think we necessarily can even state that all orcs share a common home world or source place that they came to FR from. We kind of "know" where the orcs around the old empires came from, but the orcs in the north... betting I could find something in races of faerun if I looked, but also betting someone knows it by heart. That I would say would be a good place to start with conversations. What is the actual lore that's written up so far? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
889 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2021 : 18:24:30
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
Well, it is up to every DM on how their game goes. They could always flip orc and humans so that it is the human hordes that cause so much destruction. In an infinite multiverse, there is a place that is like that. It may even be the orc's homeworld. A slumped over Elminster with pointed ears, a snout, and pronounced canines would be interesting.
IIRC, didn't the main antagonist in the 1980's Legend of Zelda cartoon match this description of an Orcish Elminster? |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2021 : 18:49:15
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Well, I think it all goes down to what do you like. Do you like the FR orcs as they are? Then, why are you going to change them? You don't like them? Then, why do you haven't changed them yet? As TheIriaeban says, is up to any DM to create the game they like to play. You don't have to like my game style, but I need to like it in order to enjoy my game.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
If these orcs and those orcs are so similar, so interchangeable ... why is there any need to replace one with the other anyhow?
They aren't really that interchangeable. The Warcraft orcs aren't a people organized in warbands that attack everything in sight cuz Deus Vult. The Warcraft orcs had a culture not unlike that of humans in fantasy until they were corrupted by demons and used as pawns in the demons plans. However, once defeated, the Warcraft orcs have done their best to return to their original culture. War, raiding and chaos aren't the sole identity of the Warcraftian orcs. They can be so much more than that.
Unlike the FR orcs, that need to be beholden to gods in order to be anything in life. If they want to change Gruumsh's ways, they must follow Eldath's ways...
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Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 05 Sep 2021 18:53:53 |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2021 : 01:51:34
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I'm going to be blunt - any race that's pulled the kind of shenanigans warcraft's orcs pulled would have been wiped out by every other race coming down straight on their heads. Note that a frequent complaint of Alliance players is that every time the Alliance has a chance to call out the Horde, all it does is wag a finger at them. Everyone forgets that the orcs are a literal race of homicidal green aliens that tried to wipe out the Eastern Kingdoms, and pre-retcon, brutally murdered the paladin that arrived to parley with them. Chris Metzen then tried to rehabilitate and retcon them with Thrall, basically his orcish self-insert, only Thrall ended up being an incompetent hypocrite that gave the Horde away to a bloodthirsty warmonger who didn't even want it. He also ended up shrugging off a city being blown off the face of the earth by his former faction, but then panicked when the sorceress-ruler of that city (who'd tried to broker peace between the two factions and even sacrificed her father on that very same altar) snapped and summoned a tidal wave to smack down the Horde capital.
The designers tried to create a race of noble, honorable savages. What they ended up with was a tribe of bloodthirsty hypocrites that use honor as a buzzword to justify themselves. |
Edited by - LordofBones on 06 Sep 2021 01:58:03 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2021 : 02:19:47
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Yeah. As I said, the orcs were corrupted by demons. But this means that the orcs are not a "literal race of homicidal green aliens", as they were made that way via magical corruption, just like has happened to humans, elves, draenei, etc. And not, not everyone followed Garrosh in his war. Or Sylvanas in her other war. Heck, the whole BfA plot has a faction of orcs trying to depose Sylvanas.
The point being that we have a culture of orcs that are way more than just "kill, destroy, kill, duurh" and evil for the sake of evil. If you don't like the Warcraft orcs, then I can point you out to the TenSura orcs --other orc culture that was enemy of humanity just out of necessity, but left their "evil" ways once they given the chance to do something different.
Again, unlike the FR orcs, that are just... what, kill, kill, kill. Or "join Eldath because we have no agency on our own and need to be shackled to a god to do something". |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 06 Sep 2021 02:28:35 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2021 : 02:28:28
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Blizzard has never been very good at writing lore. Generic, melodramatic shallow archetypes plodding through their comic-book narratives were fine back in the days when the games were simple and didn't really need deep backstory for immersion. But these days Blizzard just writes trash and trope which isn't even as good as Hollywood.
Realmslore has problems of its own, and Wizbro is equally bad at times. But at least they have mountains of old lore to draw from, along with endless contributions from talented creators who care.
Why replace something "bad" with something "awful"? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2021 : 02:30:59
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| Point me out to interesting orcs in FR, that are not the problematic Odonti, then. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2021 : 05:27:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Point me out to interesting orcs in FR, that are not the problematic Odonti, then.
General Vrakk and his crew were interesting, to me. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2021 : 05:52:21
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The mythology and culture promoted by Gruumsh always interested me.
Orcs, to my mind, are supposed to be monsters. Dark reflections of the worst human (and demihuman) traits: ugly, brutish, aggressive, bullying, threatening creatures. They'll take what they want, gut you without hesitation, fight over the spoils. They'll respect (fear) strength - because to them the strong take from the weak - then stick a (poisoned) blade in you the moment your back is exposed. They fight cheap, dirty, and low. They are stupid in many ways but also possess natural aptitudes for combat and destruction along with the keen cunning of an opportunistic predator. They are creatures who live for the moment. They are fundamentally, inherently, (almost) irredeemably evil - not because they were raised wrong, but because these bestial instincts run in their blood. It's what they are born and bred and meant to do.
"Civilized" farmer/merchant orcs (Many Arrows, Warcraft, etc) always disinterested me.
Orcs, to my mind, are not supposed to be "people". Killing monsters makes you a hero, killing people makes you a murderer. Orcs do indeed have a "culture" of their own - but other "cultured" species should view orc ways as primitive, nasty, cruel, repulsive, revolting - orc "culture" is not really something worth preserving or celebrating.
I realize my views on orcs (and on other "humanized" monsters) is misaligned with (and often contrary to) popular trends. But it's a game, it's a fiction, it's not a simulation, the heroes need something to kill (before it kills them) and orcs are iconic figures for this important role. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 06 Sep 2021 06:08:19 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2021 : 06:24:02
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Leaving aside the really bad implications of your post (given the actual origin of the orcs in Tolkien's mind)...
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
But it's a game, it's a fiction, it's not a simulation, the heroes need something to kill (before it kills them) and orcs are iconic figures for this important role.
Interesting quote in a place where we have scrolls about farming in Waterdeep and people complaining how using fiction means to solve the farming stuff (like, you know, magic) makes the game "less realistic". |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 06 Sep 2021 06:26:09 |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2021 : 08:46:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Yeah. As I said, the orcs were corrupted by demons. But this means that the orcs are not a "literal race of homicidal green aliens", as they were made that way via magical corruption, just like has happened to humans, elves, draenei, etc. And not, not everyone followed Garrosh in his war. Or Sylvanas in her other war. Heck, the whole BfA plot has a faction of orcs trying to depose Sylvanas.
The Path of Glory was made before they got high off demon blood. Orgrim Doomhammer, Butcher of Stormwind and murderer of Anduin Lothar, was an uncorrupted orc. Grom admits that the orcs drank the demon blood of their own free will. In warlords, it takes one dude to convince almost all the orc tribes of attempt to wipe the draenei off the face of the earth, which doesn't help the case.
Yes, they were homicidal green aliens. They're from another planet, and they showed up in Stormwind's backyard and tried to wipe it off the map.
There's one huge problem with the assertion that "not everyone followed Garrosh and Sylvanas", because from what we see in game, everyone did follow Garrosh and Sylvanas. The Horde resistance was left hammering at the gates of Orgrimmar fruitlessly until the Alliance stepped in and in BfA we see the Horde yet again hop, skip and dance their way to damnation. Saurfang gets no points for being the architect of the war on Teldrassil, and then throwing a fit about 'honor'. Bloody Rexxar is in Kul'Tiras, pledging to purge the Kul'Tiras scum from their lands...except it's their land; the orcs are invaders. And then there's Brennadan.
quote:
Again, unlike the FR orcs, that are just... what, kill, kill, kill. Or "join Eldath because we have no agency on our own and need to be shackled to a god to do something".
I'm going to be a Debbie Downer and note that Warcraft's orcs aren't any better, just add 'honor' before 'kill'. |
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2021 : 10:24:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Point me out to interesting orcs in FR, that are not the problematic Odonti, then.
Would you please restate the question with something the rest of the sages will be able to understand as to what your query is? "Interesting" requires a certain amount of psychic powers to read your thoughts as to what constitutes the definition of the word for you. What would these orcs need to do to be worthy of your interest? Would orcish sky pirates float your fancy? How about a subjugated orcish tribe that is feeding false reports to their fire giant masters to incite a war between them and a dwarf military post so that the orcs can escape? Then there are orcs who would slay their leader in a conspiracy of murder because the chief had shown disrespect to tribal traditions by not claiming power through force. So, what is it you are looking for? |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2021 : 11:05:35
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quote:
quote:
Again, unlike the FR orcs, that are just... what, kill, kill, kill. Or "join Eldath because we have no agency on our own and need to be shackled to a god to do something".
I'm going to be a Debbie Downer and note that Warcraft's orcs aren't any better, just add 'honor' before 'kill'.
I'll be the Double Debbie Downer and add that Tolkien's orcs aren't any better, either. They would murder and pillage and rape and destroy for their god/master (Melkor/Morgoth, Sauron, Sarumon, etc). But left to their own devices - without any evil godlike overlord to guide them - they would murder and pillage and rape and destroy anyhow. No sane man, elf, or dwarf would ever waste time negotiating with orcs, taking them prisoner, accepting their surrender, or offering them mercy. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2021 : 14:25:44
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It's always infuriating to me when the stuff that happens in the North is assumed to be gospel for the whole Realms. The entire North is just the backwater frontier of the Realms, full of "kool kids" and receiving almost all the advertisement but it doesn't represent the Realms.
Going by 3E numbers (which are the ones I know best) if you add up everything that's under "The North" section of the campaign supplement you end up with roughly 3.6 million people. Chessenta alone has got 3.4 million, the southern lands of the Sword Coast (Amn, Calimshan, Tethyr) add up to about 12 million.
So what's happening with orcs and half-orcs in the rest of Faerun?
In Thesk the orcs are synonim with peace, stability and order because they hunted down the remains of the Horde (you know, the only actual horde in the history of Toril that spanned two continents and doesn't need adjectives to be identified, the human one).
In Calimshan, it's better to be an orc or half-orc than an elf or half-elf.
In Amn, the descendants of the prisoners of the Black Horde of the 1230s (they were not exterminated, shocking, I know) are free citizens, making up to 15% of the population of Pruskul.
In Chessenta, the orcs of the Akana Peaks sometimes raid the surrounding lands and sometimes leave their tribes and join human society in the nearest city, Airspur, where they and their half-orc descendants make up 30% of the population and the lord of the city is an half-orc.
In crazy Lutcheq elves and dwarves go on pyres while orcs and half-orcs are unmolested.
Heck, even in Thay orcs are just slaves like everyone and everything else (except elves again, who just die).
The history of orcs in the North is a constant repeat of the same. It's still barely believable, but just like humans and elves (and humans and dwarves, humans and humans, humans and <insert anything here> ... see a pattern?) eventually stopped fighting, at some point there should be a moment in history when hordes stop to be a thing and some orc leaders try to carve out an existence after some kind of truce. Many-Arrows was interesting in that regard (and no, they didn't just stop being warriors and start being farmers), whatever happened to it? |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2021 : 15:56:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
Many-Arrows was interesting in that regard (and no, they didn't just stop being warriors and start being farmers), whatever happened to it?
In the 4e FRCS, it says this:
"Full-blooded orc heroes are much less common than half-orc heroes, despite the fact that there are many more full-blooded orcs than half-orcs in the world. Most orcs are murderous marauders who heed only the rumble of hungry stomachs and thirst for loot. However, in the years just before the Spellplague, a nation of orcs formed and has since managed to persevere. From within the Kingdom of Many-Arrows, a new kind of orc has emerged. While crude and barbaric traditions remain, many members of the race have come to appreciate the luxuries of civilization and the sense of satisfaction that can be achieved through creation and not destruction. Although marauding bands of orcs remain a problem throughout Faerūn, Many-Arrows has done much to change the reputation of this traditionally infamous race." |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2021 : 17:04:47
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
The Path of Glory was made before they got high off demon blood.
Sure. According to Warlords of Draenor (that shows up the orc homeworld before the demonic stuff) it was just a common road paved with iron. The skulls were added after the demonic corruption.
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Orgrim Doomhammer, Butcher of Stormwind and murderer of Anduin Lothar, was an uncorrupted orc.
Actually, nope. All orcs that came to Azeroth were corrupted. Even those that didn't directly drank the blood of Mannoroth got corrupted by it just by proximity to the orcs who drank it. That is way all orcs in the first 3 games had green skin, unlike the mag'har ("uncorrupted") who remained hidden in Outlands.
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Grom admits that the orcs drank the demon blood of their own free will. [/url]
Well, yes. Just like humans, the orcs have their fails. That's why I want of fantasy species: having both failings and virtues, not just one. There were evil individuals there, but also good ones, like Durotan.
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
In warlords, it takes one dude to convince almost all the orc tribes of attempt to wipe the draenei off the face of the earth, which doesn't help the case.
A guy with high-end technology and an incredible accurate knowledge of future events, that gave the orcs an specific version of the events that will happen to them. Sure, because no other example of this has happened ever in fiction. Only the evil orcs fell for this trap.
[quote]Originally posted by LordofBones
I'm going to be a Debbie Downer and note that Warcraft's orcs aren't any better, just add 'honor' before 'kill'.
But at least have other stuff to redeem themselves. And they do stuff on their own free will, not because they are a "martial race". And unlike the FR gods, they can be negotiated with, or they can just left the war and do other stuff. Again, on their, not because they had an special upbringing or something. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 06 Sep 2021 17:06:51 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2021 : 17:13:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
Many-Arrows was interesting in that regard (and no, they didn't just stop being warriors and start being farmers), whatever happened to it?
It got destroyed in a Drizz't novel by the dwarf army, because WotC needed orcs to be an always evil race in 5e. That backfired horribly with the new generations of players, and they have reversed the "always evil" part, but not the destruction of Many-Arrows (that means RAS wanted it destroyed, as well). |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2021 : 17:26:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
Many-Arrows was interesting in that regard (and no, they didn't just stop being warriors and start being farmers), whatever happened to it?
It got destroyed in a Drizz't novel by the dwarf army, because WotC needed orcs to be an always evil race in 5e. That backfired horribly with the new generations of players, and they have reversed the "always evil" part, but not the destruction of Many-Arrows (that means RAS wanted it destroyed, as well).
That is asinine. That left a power vacuum in that area. What took it's place? |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2021 : 18:17:43
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
Many-Arrows was interesting in that regard (and no, they didn't just stop being warriors and start being farmers), whatever happened to it?
It got destroyed in a Drizz't novel by the dwarf army, because WotC needed orcs to be an always evil race in 5e. That backfired horribly with the new generations of players, and they have reversed the "always evil" part, but not the destruction of Many-Arrows (that means RAS wanted it destroyed, as well).
That is asinine. That left a power vacuum in that area. What took it's place?
Ah, so one of the few things I could work with of the "end of 3E and 4E" period got trashed, go figure |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2021 : 19:01:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Point me out to interesting orcs in FR, that are not the problematic Odonti, then.
General Vrakk and his crew were interesting, to me.
Reading in the wiki, he was a neutral evil follower of Bane. What is the difference between him and your average orc warlord, besides alignment and religion?
quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
Would you please restate the question with something the rest of the sages will be able to understand as to what your query is? "Interesting" requires a certain amount of psychic powers to read your thoughts as to what constitutes the definition of the word for you. What would these orcs need to do to be worthy of your interest? Would orcish sky pirates float your fancy? How about a subjugated orcish tribe that is feeding false reports to their fire giant masters to incite a war between them and a dwarf military post so that the orcs can escape? Then there are orcs who would slay their leader in a conspiracy of murder because the chief had shown disrespect to tribal traditions by not claiming power through force. So, what is it you are looking for?
"What would these orcs need to do to be worthy of your interest?"
Nuance, for starters. I don't like the Odonti, for instance, because the are just a total inversion of the stereotype orc, with added problems as well (a race that is used to represent a certain minority group --whether intentional or not, that's how they are viewed today-- turns into a model minority thanks to a special education away from their evil forebears).
The orc sky pirates sound interesting, the orcs warring with dwarves and killing their leader cuz "evulz", don't.
When I talk about "interesting" orcs, I don't necessarily talk about the Warcraft orcs, I just like these because they have an already built culture and society that I can easily copy/paste in my games. But as I mentioned before, I can go as well with the orcs from the TenSura series, or the orcs (orsimer) from the Elder Scrolls. Any orc culture that goes beyond the Tolkien-esque stereotype is good for me.
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Originally posted by TheIriaeban
That is asinine. That left a power vacuum in that area. What took it's place?
I don't have read any of the new Drizzt's novels to see if there is something about this. The SCAG only mentions is destruction before the dwarves and that is.
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Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2021 : 19:04:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
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Originally posted by TheIriaeban
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Originally posted by Zeromaru X
It got destroyed in a Drizz't novel by the dwarf army, because WotC needed orcs to be an always evil race in 5e. That backfired horribly with the new generations of players, and they have reversed the "always evil" part, but not the destruction of Many-Arrows (that means RAS wanted it destroyed, as well).
That is asinine. That left a power vacuum in that area. What took it's place?
Ah, so one of the few things I could work with of the "end of 3E and 4E" period got trashed, go figure
Maybe. Maybe not. If it wasn't a genocidal war with every single orc being killed, the dwarves just killed the army and leader. Otherwise, you have orc villages that over the last 100 years "lived a certain way" (that would be about 20 generations). That way of life just doesn't go away over night. They would continue their farming, hunting, mining, what have you, simply because that is what they know. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2021 : 19:55:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
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Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Point me out to interesting orcs in FR, that are not the problematic Odonti, then.
General Vrakk and his crew were interesting, to me.
Reading in the wiki, he was a neutral evil follower of Bane. What is the difference between him and your average orc warlord, besides alignment and religion?
He was part of the orc army that the Zhents sent to fight in King Azoun IV's Crusade against the Tuigan, and took some pride in it. Later, he was also involved in the Cyrinishad debacle, and when Zhentil Keep was falling, he and his forces held one or both of the bridges (it's been a while since I read the novel), causing the deaths of a lot of Keep folks but also confining the destruction to one side of the river.
I don't recall the exact line, but he said something like "You treat us like monsters, so we'll act like monsters."
So, in short, he wasn't the form-a-horde-and-kill-everything-in-sight type of orc we so often see -- he was one of the first ones in the Realms that was portrayed as an individual with his own motivations. Still evil, but not Chaotic Stupid. |
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Why not replace the orcs with Warcraft's orcs?
