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Erikor
Seeker

Norway
60 Posts

Posted - 11 Dec 2021 :  23:32:13  Show Profile Send Erikor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I didn't know that the transformed drow lost their darkvision. But my thoughts when I read the book was like what if it happened to a matron mother, or a first born daughter or a high priestess at Arach-Tinilith. They didn't quite think this through, did they?
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TKU
Learned Scribe

USA
158 Posts

Posted - 12 Dec 2021 :  00:29:34  Show Profile Send TKU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
*snip*



Yeah, pretty much my point. Ignorance as an excuse only goes so far. And after a point my ability to give the benefit of the doubt runs out.

In regards to the wotsq/lp stuff, I think it has a lot of wotc's fingerprints on it...in regards to the series in question you can pretty much draw a straight line from War of the Spider Queen to Lady Penitent to Empyrean Odyssey to the Spellplague....I can't not believe that WoTC had their eye (and more) involved heavily in that progression of novels.

I think it would be too easy to dismiss it as an author pitching a series "Hey, I wanna kill off the Dark Seldarine, is that OK?" and WoTC letting them do whatever with little to no oversight and just nobody stopping to think about the implications until after it hit the shelves and it was too late, but it seems like WoTC was elbow deep in a lot of the specifics of those books. At some point in the process they had to know what was going into those books and decided they were OK with it.
quote:
Originally posted by Erikor

I didn't know that the transformed drow lost their darkvision. But my thoughts when I read the book was like what if it happened to a matron mother, or a first born daughter or a high priestess at Arach-Tinilith. They didn't quite think this through, did they?



I think the transformed drow would be likely to be genocided immediately regardless of their faith. Lolth's faithful tend to be a pretty intolerant bunch, and their society encourages taking advantage of the weaknesses of others. You'd probably see a lot of those transformed drow dragged to altars and sacrificed over the coming days as everyone else turned on them. Lots of drow eager to prove their own faith by purging those they deemed to no longer be 'true drow'.

So yeah, Eilistraee's 'selfless sacrifice' would have logically kicked off a massive genocide, which doesn't exactly line up with her goals as normally presented.

Edited by - TKU on 12 Dec 2021 00:37:59
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 12 Dec 2021 :  00:48:43  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
We have to think about who WotC is. I doubt the suits get beyond stuff like "Drizzt is our best horse, put him at the forefront". My understanding is that there was a team made up of designers and editors tasked with the 4e transition, they were given a goal (example: simplify/make more accessible), and they decided on stuff according to various criteria (which included, but likely were not limited to, their bias). Taking Brian James' and Eric Menge's experience with the 4e Menzo book and WotC's reaction to their attempt to include Eilistraee and Vhaeraun in it, I'd say that the editors (who can also happen to be authors of other books) are tasked with making this sort of decision.
As for Smedman, she certainly wasn't the one behind it, but she really did go all out on the racial purity stuff, as well as on the disparaging Eilistraee at every opportunity stuff.

quote:
At some point in the process they had to know what was going into those books and decided they were OK with it.


Exactly. I mean, if something ends up in a book, which has 3467438567438 revision phases, more than one people made the deliberate choice of letting that thing end up in the book, after having had a plethora of opportunities to analyze it. Ignorance is never an excuse, but in this case it is even less, due to how painfully obvious the ickyness of the whole matter was.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 12 Dec 2021 :  01:15:23  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Erikor

They didn't quite think this through, did they?



Congratulations, you've just summed up WotC for the last several years.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 12 Dec 2021 :  01:32:30  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

We have to think about who WotC is. I doubt the suits get beyond stuff like "Drizzt is our best horse, put him at the forefront". My understanding is that there was a team made up of designers and editors tasked with the 4e transition, they were given a goal (example: simplify/make more accessible), and they decided on stuff according to various criteria (which included, but likely were not limited to, their bias). Taking Brian James' and Eric Menge's experience with the 4e Menzo book and WotC's reaction to their attempt to include Eilistraee and Vhaeraun in it, I'd say that the editors (who can also happen to be authors of other books) are tasked with making this sort of decision.
As for Smedman, she certainly wasn't the one behind it, but she really did go all out on the racial purity stuff, as well as on the disparaging Eilistraee at every opportunity stuff.

quote:
At some point in the process they had to know what was going into those books and decided they were OK with it.


Exactly. I mean, if something ends up in a book, which has 3467438567438 revision phases, more than one people made the deliberate choice of letting that thing end up in the book, after having had a plethora of opportunities to analyze it. Ignorance is never an excuse, but in this case it is even less, due to how painfully obvious the ickyness of the whole matter was.



But here's the thing: It's only painfully obvious if someone is willing to see it. There's a lot of stuff we consider painfully obvious now that entire generations before us were utterly blind to. Just pick any era of history for any portion of the world and you'll see plenty of examples.

A lot of people are simply clueless about what happens outside of their tribe, and it just doesn't occur to them that not everyone thinks the same way as them, or that not everyone has the same background as them. And that kind of blindness leads to "I don't see any issue with this, so it's all good."

Yes, it's ignorance, and no, I'm not letting them slide for it. I'm just saying I've seen way too much of this kind of thing, in a lot of places and in many different fields, to think that it's any kind of malicious.

So I am disagreeing with the sentiment that WotC designers knew this stuff was offensive and didn't care. I believe they were just too isolated in their own little bubbles to realize there could possibly be any issues there.

Unless I see something more concrete than "how could they not know?" then I'm sticking with ignorance, incompetence, or both.

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sno4wy
Senior Scribe

USA
466 Posts

Posted - 12 Dec 2021 :  03:14:04  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Alrighty so, I'm obviously very jaded and cynical, but what if WotC's whole anti-Eilistraee/other good drow stance is because they need to cater to RAS? Granted, I don't know the company that well, but what I have personally seen is despite the people who claim that RAS is thick-skinned and an all around "good guy", I've encountered very few people as thin-skinned, privileged, presumptuous, and lazy about researching as he is, as far as authors are concerned anyway. Given how he's always erasing Eilistraee's existence, literally only mentioning her to throw shade her way, is it possible that all of this really just boils down to WotC trying to keep their cash cow happy so that they can keep milking him?
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 12 Dec 2021 :  03:58:13  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I do find it plausible that they were catering, there, because of the character. Whether it was an author's demand or desire or if WotC just decided on their own that they were going to go all in on making Lord Ginsu special, that I can't say. There's a lot of plausible scenarios there, and I've not enough proof to lean towards any one of them.

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TKU
Learned Scribe

USA
158 Posts

Posted - 12 Dec 2021 :  05:45:26  Show Profile Send TKU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Possible but unknowable I think. He certainly has some strong opinions on how the drow should be handled, and some of the stuff he's written, particularly more recently in the 5e era comes off (to me) as a bit...possessive-like he's trying to reassert sole creative control over the drow or something. But everything I have heard from other authors about working with him seems to indicate that he's easy to get along with and accommodating. They always seem very gracious towards him. I don't think I have ever heard of any authors beside Mark Anthony having any conflicts with him (over the unpublished 'Shores of Dusk' novel). I'm not sure how to reconcile that with the Salvatore who seems to be WoTC's chief and eager instrument in this recent slew of retcons, busy at work overwriting basically all the contributions of those authors who always so graciously thanked him in the acknowledgements of their own sourcebooks and novels.

When 5th edition was coming out, I recall something about RA Salvatore and Greenwood having a 'plan' to fix the realms. As of late ever since the whole 'Udadrow/Aevendrow/Lorendrow' reveal I have been wondering what exactly his plan has been, considering the focus of his novels this edition.

But frustratingly, there's just not a lot to go on, so one can have suspicions, but short of Salvatore coming in here to set the record straight on everything, I'm not sure what could dissipate a lot of the bad feelings etc around recent developments.

But it doesn't look good, and a lot of stuff he says in interviews doesn't help.
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 12 Dec 2021 :  09:40:27  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

We have to think about who WotC is. I doubt the suits get beyond stuff like "Drizzt is our best horse, put him at the forefront". My understanding is that there was a team made up of designers and editors tasked with the 4e transition, they were given a goal (example: simplify/make more accessible), and they decided on stuff according to various criteria (which included, but likely were not limited to, their bias). Taking Brian James' and Eric Menge's experience with the 4e Menzo book and WotC's reaction to their attempt to include Eilistraee and Vhaeraun in it, I'd say that the editors (who can also happen to be authors of other books) are tasked with making this sort of decision.
As for Smedman, she certainly wasn't the one behind it, but she really did go all out on the racial purity stuff, as well as on the disparaging Eilistraee at every opportunity stuff.

quote:
At some point in the process they had to know what was going into those books and decided they were OK with it.


Exactly. I mean, if something ends up in a book, which has 3467438567438 revision phases, more than one people made the deliberate choice of letting that thing end up in the book, after having had a plethora of opportunities to analyze it. Ignorance is never an excuse, but in this case it is even less, due to how painfully obvious the ickyness of the whole matter was.



But here's the thing: It's only painfully obvious if someone is willing to see it. There's a lot of stuff we consider painfully obvious now that entire generations before us were utterly blind to. Just pick any era of history for any portion of the world and you'll see plenty of examples.

A lot of people are simply clueless about what happens outside of their tribe, and it just doesn't occur to them that not everyone thinks the same way as them, or that not everyone has the same background as them. And that kind of blindness leads to "I don't see any issue with this, so it's all good."

Yes, it's ignorance, and no, I'm not letting them slide for it. I'm just saying I've seen way too much of this kind of thing, in a lot of places and in many different fields, to think that it's any kind of malicious.

So I am disagreeing with the sentiment that WotC designers knew this stuff was offensive and didn't care. I believe they were just too isolated in their own little bubbles to realize there could possibly be any issues there.

Unless I see something more concrete than "how could they not know?" then I'm sticking with ignorance, incompetence, or both.



I don't mean deliberate as in "yeah, we're totally going to spit in the face of people who were discriminated against", but as in "it does what we want, so we don't care about the rest".

As for painfully obvious, well, I mean, it was 2008, and they literally went full "these good drow can't be accepted unless they change their race". Like, they stated it in the book. The "unwilling and to be cast down" line, the thing with Corellon rejecting them until they had the race that he liked, the forceful race change as a "reward" for not being "evil". The being grabbed by a god that they never worshipped, thus forcing a religion on them. This isn't something subtle, it's very "in your face".

It isn't something that happened to be there as a consequence of something else, it's the main point that the ending of the story makes: race-changed drow=acceptable; non race-changed drow=unwilling and to be cast down (even those who weren't born yet at the time). If an editor with decades of experience like Athans isn't willing to see this, then he doesn't care, he's making that choice, and that's deliberate.

And if thise whole matter happened to be there as a consequence of the wanting to get people to dislike Eilistraee by associating icky stuff to her, or to make Drizzt more special by making the followers of Eilistraee no longer drow, well, they went with the whole "race as reward AND requirement" thing for that. It tells you "it's bad, but it gets the thing done, so it's okay to us".

They even doubled down on this in 4e core, as they have an option for drow that rewards them with a race change for being good. It also assumes that all drow need to redeem, to do something to prove themselves, even those born outside Lolthite society.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 12 Dec 2021 10:18:08
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 12 Dec 2021 :  10:06:59  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TKU

Possible but unknowable I think. He certainly has some strong opinions on how the drow should be handled, and some of the stuff he's written, particularly more recently in the 5e era comes off (to me) as a bit...possessive-like he's trying to reassert sole creative control over the drow or something.


A bit? He outright stated "I created the FR drow" in an interview, without even throwing a mention to people like Ed, or Elaine, or Eric Boyd.

quote:
But everything I have heard from other authors about working with him seems to indicate that he's easy to get along with and accommodating. They always seem very gracious towards him. I don't think I have ever heard of any authors beside Mark Anthony having any conflicts with him (over the unpublished 'Shores of Dusk' novel). I'm not sure how to reconcile that with the Salvatore who seems to be WoTC's chief and eager instrument in this recent slew of retcons, busy at work overwriting basically all the contributions of those authors who always so graciously thanked him in the acknowledgements of their own sourcebooks and novels.


There could be a lot of reasons for that. Maybe RAS is indeed accomodating when working with other authors, as long as his turf doesn't get touched. However, I don't see any contradiction between those statements and RAS wanting to appropriate the drow, like he's currently doing.

People can act different in different situations, and as a writer should know, there's the masks and the self that each and every of us has, and even the self can be contradictory--often due to flawed beliefs that we hold. That's not a bad thing, it's just how humans act: we're different when we don't have power/we're subject to other people's judgment and its consequence, than we are when we hold some kind of power, or we're not subject to consequences. Our "domesticated brains" are always looking for changes in the social environment to determine which situation we're in, an if there are opportunities to gain "power" (not necessarily--and most often not--in the literal sense). This means that we can be different people in different situations. At the moment, RAS was given free reign over the drow as a whole, and we're seeing how he acts when that happens.

But speaking of RAS and contradictions, first, after having spent 30 years pushing the Drizzt exceptionalism and shoving aside any good drow that he didn't create, he now emerges stating that making whole civilizations of good drow has always been his plan (yeah, he said that), that there are things with the current drow that he could never stand--the very same things that he caused, btw--which already throws shade on other creators, and that he will now change.

Then, in the same interview, he says that he created the FR drow, which begs the question: "if you had this awesome plan to add civilizations since forever, and if you created the FR drow--which he didn't--why did you create them like that? Why didn't any hint of these civilizations show up anywhere in over 30 years?"

Then, in another interview he says that he wasn't aware of anything, as in he was oblivious to racist tropes, because it was a different time, and now he wants to change things. Which is already in contradiction with all he said in the other interviews.

The dude's just trying to build a persona, but he's all over the place.

quote:
When 5th edition was coming out, I recall something about RA Salvatore and Greenwood having a 'plan' to fix the realms.


It reeks of PR/marketing stunt bullcrap to get old fans back on board. Like the story about RAS wiping Ed's tears that came around with that statement. Just... Lol.

quote:

But it doesn't look good, and a lot of stuff he says in interviews doesn't help.



His actions too. Actions are all that matter.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 12 Dec 2021 10:18:15
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe

USA
466 Posts

Posted - 13 Dec 2021 :  00:36:07  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TKU
But everything I have heard from other authors about working with him seems to indicate that he's easy to get along with and accommodating. They always seem very gracious towards him. I don't think I have ever heard of any authors beside Mark Anthony having any conflicts with him (over the unpublished 'Shores of Dusk' novel). I'm not sure how to reconcile that with the Salvatore who seems to be WoTC's chief and eager instrument in this recent slew of retcons, busy at work overwriting basically all the contributions of those authors who always so graciously thanked him in the acknowledgements of their own sourcebooks and novels.



I think it's also important to consider when these collaborations occurred. Imo, it's no coincidence that RAS's earlier stuff is much better, especially than his more recent stuff. Many have said that he used to be more humble and open-minded back then, before his books were marketed enough to get him NYT Bestseller status. I feel like with each new book he puts out, which have been worse and worse, he still expects the same kind of reception as before, while putting in less effort, care, and respect. It reeks of entitlement, tbh, something that the earlier books did not.
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Razz
Senior Scribe

USA
749 Posts

Posted - 07 Jan 2022 :  12:56:42  Show Profile Send Razz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Pretty sure WotC made it clear recently that D&D lore/setting lore doesn’t even matter anymore. It’s become a complete free-for-all mess.
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe

USA
883 Posts

Posted - 08 Jan 2022 :  12:49:26  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If WoTC really meant what they wrote about the drow "redemption" in the LP series, shouldn't Drizzt have been forcibly changed into a brown skinned surface elf with his darkvision wiped away?

Yes, I deliberately put "redemption" in quotes.
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 08 Jan 2022 :  23:22:15  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

If WoTC really meant what they wrote about the drow "redemption" in the LP series, shouldn't Drizzt have been forcibly changed into a brown skinned surface elf with his darkvision wiped away?

Yes, I deliberately put "redemption" in quotes.



They already admitted that the goal of that series was to make Drizzt the most special, it didn't have any narrative goal beyond getting rid of any non-Lolth drow, and it showed.

It's not for nothing that it was retconned into oblivion.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 08 Jan 2022 23:22:34
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RK
Acolyte

8 Posts

Posted - 26 Mar 2022 :  04:24:39  Show Profile Send RK a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Guenwhyvar has teleported with people in the past. She did so with Regis in the Crystal Shard.

Catti-Brie stayed because because sending Azudonna (?) to Penelope opens the door for others to learn about the Avendrow. Pretty slick.

As for the new Drow history, I took that as Kimmuriel's ultimate revenge for the destruction of his family. Aided by the Mind Flayers, it's definitely possible. It explains his earlier capture (Timeless?), and the fact that nothing was said of his escape...because he was released. He's running a long con with the aid of the most powerful group of beings in Faerun, and given his history, no one sees it coming save maybe Jarlaxle. And Lolth. But she likely enjoys the whole thing.

Want to learn how to make $50,000 in the first month? Me too.

Edited by - RK on 26 Mar 2022 04:25:48
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
955 Posts

Posted - 26 Mar 2022 :  18:03:49  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by RK
As for the new Drow history, I took that as Kimmuriel's ultimate revenge for the destruction of his family. Aided by the Mind Flayers, it's definitely possible. It explains his earlier capture (Timeless?), and the fact that nothing was said of his escape...because he was released. He's running a long con with the aid of the most powerful group of beings in Faerun, and given his history, no one sees it coming save maybe Jarlaxle. And Lolth. But she likely enjoys the whole thing.



Wait, is there some suggestion in Starlight Enclave the history/past actually was in-universe changed? And that someone or something done it intentionally? Or is this just your theory?

Edited by - Baltas on 26 Mar 2022 19:34:35
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RK
Acolyte

8 Posts

Posted - 26 Mar 2022 :  22:36:29  Show Profile Send RK a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

quote:
Originally posted by RK
As for the new Drow history, I took that as Kimmuriel's ultimate revenge for the destruction of his family. Aided by the Mind Flayers, it's definitely possible. It explains his earlier capture (Timeless?), and the fact that nothing was said of his escape...because he was released. He's running a long con with the aid of the most powerful group of beings in Faerun, and given his history, no one sees it coming save maybe Jarlaxle. And Lolth. But she likely enjoys the whole thing.



Wait, is there some suggestion in Starlight Enclave the history/past actually was in-universe changed? And that someone or something done it intentionally? Or is this just your theory?



At the end of Relentless, after Yvonnel revealed this revised history of Menzoberranzan and departed with Quenthel, Jarlaxle spat out several theories, the main one hinged on Kimmuriel, in concert with the Mind Flayer enclave, conjuring this new history.

Personally, I think/hope that Kimmuriel is just out for revenge, and to do as much damage to the Lolthian drow as possible. And he is in much better standing with the Mind Flayers than anyone else in the books.

These are the same Mind Flayers who were able to enact a kinetic barrier sufficient for Drizzt to destroy Demogorgon with one strike. If they could execute the Kineticist discipline to that extent, what could they do with Telepathy?

Mass delusion? Not necessary, because they only needed to place the delusion in Kimmuriel's mind. I believe without evidence that Yvonnel and Quenthel found it while scrying him.

Want to learn how to make $50,000 in the first month? Me too.
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
955 Posts

Posted - 26 Mar 2022 :  23:18:29  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Very interesting. And indeed, the Illithid are capable of changing history - aside from their (possible) backstory as time travelers, with the Overmind the Engine Consumate and an Ether Gap, they planned to substitute the current multiverse, for a one were their empire never fallen (and expanded to control at least a vast part of it), as detailed in the "Dawn of the Overmind" adventure. If on a much lesser scale, and certainly different methods, if still connected to psionics.

Edited by - Baltas on 27 Mar 2022 00:25:43
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