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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Jul 2021 : 01:17:11
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https://www.polygon.com/22585687/dungeons-dragons-r-a-salvatore-drizzt-black-controversy-race-interview
"D&D’s Drizzt books were built on racist tropes, R.A. Salvatore wants to change that"
Do these people know that the Forgotten Realms has awesome black human civilizations with rich cultures and the human complexity they say they are looking for? Instead they fixate on monster races.
They have completely stripped RA Salvatore of his dignity in this article. This reminds me of 4e and how he had to pretend like he didn't hate the whole thing. They gave him lemons, again, and he's trying to make lemonade.
Apparently they had a five hour meeting at WotC to plot this out.like I said it wasn't RAS behind this, it was the folks at at WotC, he just gets left holding the bag.
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2021 : 01:27:50
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I find this hilarious. He says:
quote:
If the drow are being portrayed as evil, that’s a trope that has to go away, be buried under the deepest pit, and never brought out again. I was unaware of that. I admit it. I was oblivious.
But in the Dragon+ interview he says:
quote:
I didn’t create the drow, but I created the drow in the Realms. And the vision I’ve always had for them is where the Wizards Franchise Team is taking them now,”
Apparently, RAS' vision is also Schroedinger's vision.
On a more serious note, Drizzt has indeed played the "good blacks" trope. Not because the drow are a parallel to any IRL culture or anything, but because RAS' approach has always pushed the drow as a nearly wholly evil race, with a handful of acceptable individuals. Drizzt has also always suffered from "exceptionalism", because RAS refused to acknowledge the non-Lolthite cultures out of personal bias.
This is a pretty crappy trope, regardless of the color of your fantasy race. You write people? Treat them as such, not as a one note caricature (which is what RAS has done for decades, even if he has stated otherwise).
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Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 23 Jul 2021 01:34:07 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2443 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2021 : 02:08:29
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The worst thing in that article is that I've learned that this is Book 1 of yet another new series of novels by RAS... 
The good thing is that novels now aren't canon,  |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 23 Jul 2021 02:12:05 |
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HighOne
Learned Scribe
214 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2021 : 02:33:24
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| The Drizzt books were, if anything, written to counter racist tropes. They're a parable about and a condemnation of racial prejudice. |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2021 : 02:44:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
Apparently they had a five hour meeting at WotC to plot this out.like I said it wasn't RAS behind this, it was the folks at at WotC, he just gets left holding the bag.
That doesn't make sense. You can't have it both ways. If he had no input on the direction of the new novels and actually hates it, he is only doing this for the money so why should anyone feel sorry for him? He is getting paid to attach his name to it since RAS + drow = $$$$ (that bag he is left holding). Otherwise, he does have input into the new direction or agrees with it so he shares culpability for its direction. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2021 : 02:54:36
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quote:
Originally posted by HighOne
The Drizzt books were, if anything, written to counter racist tropes. They're a parable about and a condemnation of racial prejudice.
Maybe, but it's pretty irrelevant when they missed the mark by a long shot.
The Drizzt novels indulge in exceptionalism far too much.
Over 25 or so books (so, excluding the last couple books), they do nothing but rub in your face how retardedly evil the drow are, and how nearly no one ever even tried to rebel or change anything over *friggin' millennia*. Then they proceed to rub in your face how special Drizzt and the other handful of characters tied to him are, how unique and beyond reach their achievements are, how they are anomalies. All of this while ignoring the tons of reasons why this society couldn't function in any way, shape, or form, to maintain the status quo and keep indulging in the exceptionalism (after all, this is fantasy, so everything goes, right? Screw exploring the consequences of our premises, who got time for that pesky thing called narrative? The exact kind of sloppy attitude that sunk the quality of the fantasy genre).
Oh, and then you see Drizzt take the moral high ground and rub RAS' worldview in the reader's face as if it was the absolute truth, which makes me doubt that the goal of the novels was to debunk racist tropes.
If RAS had bothered to add nuance to the Lolthite cultures, as well as dissent, if he had bothered to show the other non-Lolthite cultures, then you might have had a point. However, RAS refused to do that for decades and out of personal bias (admittedly), and the result is that the Drizzt novels have actually become the textbook example of the "good blacks" trope ("those people are awful, but you--you are ok"). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 23 Jul 2021 02:57:17 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2443 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2021 : 03:20:04
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quote:
Originally posted by HighOne
The Drizzt books were, if anything, written to counter racist tropes. They're a parable about and a condemnation of racial prejudice.
Yet, they fell into another harmful trope themselves: the "You're a credit to your race" trope, in where Drizzt and a few other, rare individuals were the only good thing that came from the otherwise super evil race of the drow. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2021 : 03:27:56
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What makes it worse is that it happened purely because of RAS' own bias against drow stuff that he didn't create. A "solution" that was exactly like this was already in place, but somehow he's now "the savior of the drow".
Then again, this new version really doesn't change much from what we had before. It still deals in sh*t like "innate integrity" (like, are you kidding me? How's that different from "innate evil"?) and the udadrow are still an evil subrace that just shifts the problem. Why are all or nearly all these dudes evil? Does an oppressive religion that pushes you into misery really lead people to become evil f*ckers? Why haven't they rebeled, formed splinter movements, alternative faiths and stuff over the *tens of thousands* years that they have existed? What drives them? Oh right, they had to wait for their lord and savior Drizzt to come around to even think that maybe things can be different. Also, why did RAS (or whoever) have to mark them as "ok to kill" with face tatoos? |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 23 Jul 2021 03:37:52 |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2021 : 04:03:27
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| FFS, I'm so sick of Salvatore playing innocent. Is he also going to plead innocent in not being aware of how for over 30 books the only time that LGBT+ characters appeared were as fetish tropes? Of course now, when race tensions are running high, he's all like, oh I've never wanted to do this, WotC/TSR made me do it, blah blah blah. What's he going to say if at some point in the future what's happening with black people (and other ethnic minorities) happen to LGBT+ people? Seriously, this pisses me off so much. How does he say this bullshit and carry on thinking that he's got integrity? |
Edited by - sno4wy on 23 Jul 2021 04:07:32 |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2021 : 05:14:20
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Can we not use a pretty viciously ableist slur (“retarded”) when condemning racism? Good ****ing lord, people.
The drow are racist. This isn’t news. Drizzt has literally always existed to be “the good one.” |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2021 : 06:48:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Are we surprised?
I'm not, but I'm still mad about it. If you know how to not get mad as long as I'm not surprised, all I have to say is...
PLEASE TEACH ME YOUR WAYS SENSEI I'M DESPERATE |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
657 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2021 : 07:16:53
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| lol this is ridiculous, drow are a villain fantasy race, what's next githyanki are yellow and mostly evil, xill are red etc. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2021 : 12:30:35
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well, we already see the other ball to drop "why are orcs treated as bad... aren't they all just misunderstood". It's at a time where in our real life certain BS things are being pushed on our schoolkids, etc....
To be clear, I'm not upset with the storyline. I'm upset with the apology and the idea that what was done before was wrong. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 23 Jul 2021 12:32:54 |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2021 : 12:50:01
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
well, we already see the other ball to drop "why are orcs treated as bad... aren't they all just misunderstood". It's at a time where in our real life certain BS things are being pushed on our schoolkids, etc....
To be clear, I'm not upset with the storyline. I'm upset with the apology and the idea that what was done before was wrong.
sleyvas, I wouldn't say we should compare reall studies in schools, and such, with situation in D&D. (Or to take into consideration that the claim there is "Leftist/liberal/etc. propaganda/indoctrination of children" at schools, is a thing people say for 50 years, or more, all the time.) Along the fact it's kinda offtopic. |
Edited by - Baltas on 23 Jul 2021 18:02:53 |
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Vaughn Javreau
Acolyte
USA
18 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2021 : 17:28:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Marc
lol this is ridiculous, drow are a villain fantasy race, what's next githyanki are yellow and mostly evil, xill are red etc.
Yes, they're JUST that. A villainous race. It not only reflects a flawed method of world-building, but also a pretty toxic view of race in general, (That some races can just be EVIL). I'm honestly glad WotC seems to finally be expanding the canon of Drow culture, and opening the way for stories that reflect the modern world.
In reference to the other fantasy race you've mentioned, I honestly don't see them as being vilified and tokenized like the Drow Elves have been throughout the years. |
Boil 'em, mash 'em, stick 'em in a stew. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2021 : 17:55:09
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quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Are we surprised?
I'm not, but I'm still mad about it. If you know how to not get mad as long as I'm not surprised, all I have to say is...
PLEASE TEACH ME YOUR WAYS SENSEI I'M DESPERATE
-Here's my strategy: it's all dumb anyway, so who cares. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Qilintha
Seeker
76 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2021 : 17:55:36
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So I guess it means that soon we'll have a statement about Chromatic Dragons not being evil? Or Dragons are monsters so the statement doesn't apply, where do you draw the line between monster and race in a fantasy game? I am all up for more culture about the Drow, but good drow existed already besides Drizzt ( Eilistraee's cult), and more importantly, inside the fantasy world it was given a pretty good explanation on WHY drow are like that,
Lolth's corruption over them since they were just dark elves, among with several other demons, dark elves committing a terrible act of betrayal towards their own kin hence the Descent. Living in the Underdark, complete darkness full of monsters and other evil races that would kill them, and still always guided by the embodiment of chaos itself that is the Spider Queen.
If you want to make a real world comparison, drow got secluded as punishment in the suburbs of a town, outside of any law and without any kind of help from the public services. There they met several gangs that killed and tormented them in any possible way. When managing to regroup they elected as leaders the strongest and fiercest among them, because they could provide protection. They start to make their own clans and gangs because in unity relies strength against the other gangs. Then those gangs and clans fight against each other to climb a social ladder that doesn't truly exist. The common belief among them is that noone from outside will ever help them and going against their leaders would put you in a bad spot.
After a story like that, is the issue about race or about living in a toxic ( literally) enviroment like the Underdark?.
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Marc
Senior Scribe
657 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2021 : 18:14:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Vaughn Javreau
quote:
Originally posted by Marc
lol this is ridiculous, drow are a villain fantasy race, what's next githyanki are yellow and mostly evil, xill are red etc.
Yes, they're JUST that. A villainous race. It not only reflects a flawed method of world-building, but also a pretty toxic view of race in general, (That some races can just be EVIL). I'm honestly glad WotC seems to finally be expanding the canon of Drow culture, and opening the way for stories that reflect the modern world.
In reference to the other fantasy race you've mentioned, I honestly don't see them as being vilified and tokenized like the Drow Elves have been throughout the years.
it's s design choice, for variety's sake some monster alignments are fixed, there's been a lot of non-evil dark elves in FR history, and in the planes there's even a whole realm in Ysgard, Svartaflheim
drow culture is defined by chaotic evil, if it changes it's no longer drow, e.g something like Miyeritar |
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Vaughn Javreau
Acolyte
USA
18 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2021 : 18:14:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Qilintha
So I guess it means that soon we'll have a statement about Chromatic Dragons not being evil? Or Dragons are monsters so the statement doesn't apply, where do you draw the line between monster and race in a fantasy game?
At people, I believe is where the line should be drawn. Dragons are not people. Drow are definitely people, for whom most page space has been dedicated to bringing to light how innately evil they are. You're right in that the Cult of Eilistraee offers us respite from the "All Drow Bad" trope, but when spend as much time as has been given to the notion that nearly an entire race is innately evil, it draws parallels from the real world which for some are much too close to genocidal propaganda for comfort.
I remember when I was quite young, someone I met at a local game shop described to me how to "moral" act when finding a Drow baby was to "stomp it". I'm just as disgusted today as all those years ago that a Fantasy Campaign Setting could bring something like that out of people who don't know any better.
All in all Epic Fantasy has a rocky relationship with real world racial tropes, being that it's often told from what you might call an In-Group perspective. |
Boil 'em, mash 'em, stick 'em in a stew. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2388 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2021 : 18:43:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
https://www.polygon.com/22585687/dungeons-dragons-r-a-salvatore-drizzt-black-controversy-race-interview
Polygon.
quote:
"D&D�s Drizzt books were built on racist tropes, R.A. Salvatore wants to change that"
"Everything is sexciss, everything is rayciss, everything is hohophobic and you have to point it all out to everyone all the time." (St. Anita)
quote:
Do these people know
No. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2021 : 19:25:14
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
"Everything is sexciss, everything is rayciss, everything is hohophobic and you have to point it all out to everyone all the time." (St. Anita)
Not quite sure if obsessing over Anita Sarkeesian, even after over all these years, is the best thing to do now. |
Edited by - Baltas on 23 Jul 2021 19:30:29 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2021 : 20:50:30
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Folks, I'm not liking the overall tone of this discussion. Tone it down, please.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2021 : 21:15:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Qilintha
So I guess it means that soon we'll have a statement about Chromatic Dragons not being evil? Or Dragons are monsters so the statement doesn't apply, where do you draw the line between monster and race in a fantasy game? I am all up for more culture about the Drow, but good drow existed already besides Drizzt ( Eilistraee's cult), and more importantly, inside the fantasy world it was given a pretty good explanation on WHY drow are like that,
Lolth's corruption over them since they were just dark elves, among with several other demons, dark elves committing a terrible act of betrayal towards their own kin hence the Descent. Living in the Underdark, complete darkness full of monsters and other evil races that would kill them, and still always guided by the embodiment of chaos itself that is the Spider Queen.
If you want to make a real world comparison, drow got secluded as punishment in the suburbs of a town, outside of any law and without any kind of help from the public services. There they met several gangs that killed and tormented them in any possible way. When managing to regroup they elected as leaders the strongest and fiercest among them, because they could provide protection. They start to make their own clans and gangs because in unity relies strength against the other gangs. Then those gangs and clans fight against each other to climb a social ladder that doesn't truly exist. The common belief among them is that noone from outside will ever help them and going against their leaders would put you in a bad spot.
After a story like that, is the issue about race or about living in a toxic ( literally) enviroment like the Underdark?.
They aren't going as far with Dragons, but in Fizban's Treasury of Dragons they will include the idea that some Chromatic Dragons are good, some Metallics are evil, and some Gem Dragons reject neutrality. |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2021 : 21:27:04
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| This place is a pit. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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deserk
Learned Scribe
Norway
237 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2021 : 21:39:29
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RAS and WotC only have only themselves to blame. RAS is the one who popularized the drow in FR, but he has depicted them in an stereotypically evil and utterly dysfunctional manner, and both he and WotC have primarily only focused on Lolthite culture of the drow, to the near exclusion of anything else, to the point that virtually every D&D fan is utterly oblivious to the existence of Eilistraeeans or other drow societies that are not chaotic evil.
I really welcome more depth and nuance to the classically "evil" races. However I don't see a problem with a race being primarily evil (nothing is truly exclusively evil or good, not even angels/demons/devils, after all erinyes for example are fallen angels). Every culture in the world has creatures and beings in it's mythology that are evil, and this is nothing new. And also I find it really ridiculous and obnoxious that the SJWs keep consistently conflating drow, orcs, etc. with RW ethnicities and then act like everyone else is the racist. |
Edited by - deserk on 23 Jul 2021 21:52:27 |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
768 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2021 : 22:05:54
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| I am SOOOO sick of this topic. I hate the drow, I hate Drizzt, I am starting to hate RAS as well as D&D in general. I honestly would have preferred they just delete the drow and Drizzt entirely from the universe rather than have to suffer through this stupid debate. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2021 : 23:13:41
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| And we're done. We can't have a civilized discussion when people start calling others names for having different opinions. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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"D&D’s Drizzt books were built on racist tropes"
Topic Locked
