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Wendolyn
Seeker
56 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Mar 2021 : 12:23:00
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Greetings sages,
I just wanted to share an interesting connection I had found in investigations. According to the GHotR, the warlike metamind-emperor Dharien comes to power in Jhaamdath in -276 DR. His ambition is to rule the Sea of Fallen Stars, and shortly after coming to power his armada sinks the bulk of Westgate's navy near Prespur. Likely this is a galley battle as modern caravels, cogs and galleons don't start sailing the inner sea until later. Galley battles tend to involve boarding actions and heavy close-combat fighting, but possible the bladelords and psiarchs of Jhaamdath used their psionic powers to their advantage in the fight.
What is fun is that at this time Westgate is ruled by the vampire-king Orlak, who came to power in -286 DR and reigns for over a hundred years. I'd like to think that Orlak, as a mighty vampire, fought in the naval battle personally. Yet despite his vampiric powers, Orlak his defeated and his navy destroyed. Orlak, however, gets to live to see his enemies brought low when Jhaamdath is obliterated by the furious wave in -255 DR.
Orlak is eventually slain in -137 DR by a company of Lathander-worshipping paladins. According to the detailed history of the rulers of Westgate, these paladins are from the Vilhon Reach -- the land that Jhaamdath once ruled prior to its destruction.
Some fun ideas that come from this:
1) The paladins that slay Lathander are likely Chondathans, the successor peoples to Jhaamdath. It is possible that the paladins that slay Orlak in -137 DR had their ancestors fight him and his forces in the naval battle at Prespur.
2) Orlak may have personally fought in the naval action around Prespur. His flagship galley may have been sunk, but he personally survived, due to his vampiric abilities. Maybe some other vampires or other servants perished though, and haunt this sunken boat still.
3) Tyr is so angered by the anarchy occurring over what was once Jhaamdath, that in -247 DR he personally enters the realms and leads a procession of planetars in what would become known as 'the Procession of Justice.' What, exactly, was so grim about this anarchy is unclear, though the lesser god Valigan Thirdborn plays some part. Possibly Orlak also played some role, using his rebuilt navy to sail into the Vilhon reach, and take vengeance upon the surviving Jhaamdathans who had sunk his navy twenty-five or so years earlier. Possibly this scouring by Orlak is what embitters the survivors in the Vilhon Reach, who later send the paladins that ultimately slay the vampire.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2021 : 13:07:55
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The only thing "implausible" about your idea is that vampires shun crossing water. Even "mighty" vampires.
Crossing water is a trivial thing for natural creatures. We could ride on a boat, walk across a bridge, or even walk/swim through the water.
But it's just something vampires cannot do. For them it's categorically forbidden, it's a supernatural prohibition.
So to me it seems unlikely a vampire would lead a navy. If he were forced to travel on boat he would probably be dormant and would certainly be unfit for battle. If he were forced into daylight he would become extra crispy very quick, yet if he "fought in the naval battle personally" during the night then all of his allies, ships, and crew would be fighting blindly in the darkness. It seems like an awfully stupid thing for a vampire to do, even *if* he could somehow find a way to travel on board a ship it would be suicidally risky for him to direct that ship into a naval battle.
Naval battles tended to be fought in daytime and avoided in nighttime. Combining darkness with battle seems like a recipe for disaster - too many men on deck, too much rigging to catch the wind, too much cannonfire (or whatever) being launched from both sides, plus the usual anxieties and tensions of battle. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wendolyn
Seeker
56 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2021 : 14:45:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
The only thing "implausible" about your idea is that vampires shun crossing water. Even "mighty" vampires.
Crossing water is a trivial thing for natural creatures. We could ride on a boat, walk across a bridge, or even walk/swim through the water.
But it's just something vampires cannot do. For them it's categorically forbidden, it's a supernatural prohibition.
Good point! I may have been unduly influenced by the novel The Reaver which I recently finished. In it, there is a vampire Red Wizard of Thay named Kymas who is the leader (bossing the captain around) of a galley that covers wide tracts of the Sea of Fallen Stars. So it seems, unless there is something unusual about Kymas that allows him to sail on boats with impunity, that vampires can be on boats? Granted, he does rest below decks whenever the sun is out. And I'm unsure of how good with general lore The Reaver is... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2021 : 16:32:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Wendolyn
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
The only thing "implausible" about your idea is that vampires shun crossing water. Even "mighty" vampires.
Crossing water is a trivial thing for natural creatures. We could ride on a boat, walk across a bridge, or even walk/swim through the water.
But it's just something vampires cannot do. For them it's categorically forbidden, it's a supernatural prohibition.
Good point! I may have been unduly influenced by the novel The Reaver which I recently finished. In it, there is a vampire Red Wizard of Thay named Kymas who is the leader (bossing the captain around) of a galley that covers wide tracts of the Sea of Fallen Stars. So it seems, unless there is something unusual about Kymas that allows him to sail on boats with impunity, that vampires can be on boats? Granted, he does rest below decks whenever the sun is out. And I'm unsure of how good with general lore The Reaver is...
Vampires can't cross running water under their own power -- that's the caveat. It's not a hard barrier that they can never pass running water, it's just that they can't do it under their own power.
Most vampires in fiction are based on Dracula -- and he sailed to England on a ship, and was actively preying on the sailors during the journey. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2021 : 17:54:14
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There have been different versions of Dracula. Some of the first movies did have him travel by ship in coffin.
From the SRD 3.5 quote:
Vampires are also unable to cross running water, although they can be carried over it while resting in their coffins or aboard a ship
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2021 : 19:16:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
There have been different versions of Dracula. Some of the first movies did have him travel by ship in coffin.
From the SRD 3.5 quote:
Vampires are also unable to cross running water, although they can be carried over it while resting in their coffins or aboard a ship
In the novel, too, he went to England by ship. |
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deserk
Learned Scribe
Norway
237 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2021 : 13:10:17
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Well Orlak could have simply set pirates down to the Vilhon Reach rather than personally taking part in the expedition.
I also think it's really odd come to think of it that FR has gunpowder age ships like galleons, carracks, and caravels while virtually no nation or organization in FR uses gunpowder (or smokepowder as it's known in FR) weapons except for Lantan and the church of Gond. These particular ship types have a lot of rigging and are not particularly spacious enough to be outfitted with with large-sized ballistae or catapults like a galley, nor were they designed for it. Not to mention, ballistae alone would certainly be hard-pressed to bring down these kinds of heavy ships compared to a cannon, so that would change the nature of naval battles, making boarding an enemy vessel ultimately necessary, which is something that only rarely happened in the RW in battles between these ship types. Are there other weapons naval vessels in FR use other than the conventional weapons of antiquity or the Medieval era? |
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Wendolyn
Seeker
56 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2021 : 13:35:25
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quote:
Originally posted by deserk
Well Orlak could have simply set pirates down to the Vilhon Reach rather than personally taking part in the expedition.
I also think it's really odd come to think of it that FR has gunpowder age ships like galleons, carracks, and caravels while virtually no nation or organization in FR uses gunpowder (or smokepowder as it's known in FR) weapons except for Lantan and the church of Gond. These particular ship types have a lot of rigging and are not particularly spacious enough to be outfitted with with large-sized ballistae or catapults like a galley, nor were they designed for it. Not to mention, ballistae alone would certainly be hard-pressed to bring down these kinds of heavy ships compared to a cannon, so that would change the nature of naval battles, making boarding an enemy vessel ultimately necessary, which is something that only rarely happened in the RW in battles between these ship types. Are there other weapons naval vessels in FR use other than the conventional weapons of antiquity or the Medieval era?
Yeah, it is entirely possible that Orlak didn't participate in the battle himself. Possibly he sent a powerful general or admiral. Maybe a vampire spawn, or some other undead, or maybe even just a normal human? Orlak conquers Westgate emerging from the catacombs at the head of a small but elite group of mercenaries. Seems like a good officers are available for the navy. Orlak definitely could have sent pirates too, but part of me suspects that in this era, the ships of Westgate may have been the pirates. When exactly the Pirate Isles get settled with the pirates that we have today is not entirely clear (Immurk being the first great pirate lord, who comes in 1100s DR, almost fifteen hundred years after this naval battle sometime after -276 DR). Certainly Westgate is a powerful pirating force under the pirate kings in the 200s DR. And we know that pirates fight Dempster Turmish around 150 DR.
As to the naval battles, you also raise good points there. This confused tension of authors drawing from real-world boats despite there being no gunpowder shows up again and again. In The Reaver I remember being annoyed about the author describing the "gunwhales" of a boat. The word gunwhales come from its relationship to the "gun deck." But in the Sea of Fallen Stars at the time of The Reaver they didn't have guns (i.e. cannons), and so wouldn't have gundecks, and so wouldn't have the word 'gunwhales.' Just poor worldbuilding on the author's part. I am sure Ed Greenwood, who paid close attention to language, would have surely called them something different, inventing a more appropriate and Realmsian word.
Your points about ballista and catapults are well taken. They are just nowhere nearly as effective as cannons. Having 'gundecks' full of ballista seems like a nonstarter. Though catapults could hurl flaming pitch and that sort of thing.
Nevertheless Galleons and other "tall sailing ships" would nevertheless be very useful in cannonless naval combat, simply because they are tall. When up against another boat the soldiers in the tall ship get to look over and shoot down into the lower decks of the enemy below. It is like being in a castle. It is no accident that boats describe their even higher raised sections Forecastles and Aftcastles. Even in a world without cannons or muskets, it is very advantageous to be shooting arrows and crossbows from raised ground and with better cover. The battle of Lepanto made very plain the advantage of being in a tall boat, where the 6 Venetian galleasses played a decisive role in the holy leagues' victory over the Ottomans. This was in part because of their cannons of course, but also because they were so tall and thereby so difficult to board.
I also want to draw a sharp distinction in naval combat in the Sea of Fallen Stars from before 600 DR, where the Untherite galleys are the predominant warship, and afterwards, where galleys continue to exist & evolve but also we have the introduction of "tall sailing warships," even though none of these boats use cannons. The Battle of Prespur is an ancient naval battle, more like the naval battles of ancient Greece or Rome, which center around ramming and boarding action, rather than ranged weaponry.
As for the firepower used in such naval battles, I think there are some ballista and catapults, but probably the most significant ranged weaponry is magic. In the big naval battle in The Reaver, magic is the main offensive ranged weapon. And in Queen of Depths boats all seem to have both wizards and clerics on board, selected in part for their ability to cast offensive ranged magics. We don't have cannons in the realms, but we do have fireballs and lightning bolts! I can only imagine what a fireball would do to sails and rigging. |
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Battle of Prespur
