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Kylia Quilor
Acolyte

USA
17 Posts

Posted - 22 Mar 2021 :  19:12:40  Show Profile Send Kylia Quilor a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I'm mapping out a 3.5 Realms campaign I hope to start running for some friends in a month or so, and I have a long term arc in mind for the campaign, but once I start to zoom in on the specifics, I'm starting to have a few issues.

The campaign starts in 1377, after Ilsevele Miritar formally becomes Coronal of Cormanthyr, following the end of the Cormanthor War. The initial premise for the campaign is that even though the war ended, it's not everyone who wasn't totally happy with Cormanthyr being reborn is... well, happy now.

It's just that no one is in a position to fight more war right now, given the costs of the last couple years of fighting.

So Cormanthyr and the surrounding territory is a bit of a haven for adventurers and troubleshooters of all stripes because there's a lot of spying, sabotage, small group actions - the elves still have to fully secure their hold on Cormanthyr. The Masked Brigades may have been beaten and broken back into Clan Auzkovyn and House Jaelre, but they're still lurking (in this continuity, Vhaeraun did not try to kill Eilistraee and thus did not die), the Zhentarim may have a peace treaty and have problems they need to address elsewhere (the loss of the Black Road to Shade, or it's impending loss) but Fzoul doesn't seem one to just lie down and accept a partial defeat (even if they did get Hillsfar out of the peace), etc, etc.

The long term arc I have in mind - assuming it survives contact with the players - is the penetration of the Eldreth Veluuthra into more of the society of Cormanthyr, and the hints in Champions of Ruin that Malkazid is becoming the patron to the Eldreth Veluuthra. (I'm toying with him granting them spells to the Eldreth Veluuthra and let them think the Seldarine is finally on their side, since he seems to be about as powerful as a 3.5 era demon lord/archdevil and they can grant spells,). The players are actually being indirectly manipulated by a member Eldreth Veluuthra early on (the first adventure, clearing some errant Vhaeraunite drow out of a ruin to recover certain holy relics lost after the Weeping War, is a cover for the Eldreth Veluuthra to send one agent to steal some powerful magical items hidden in the ruin they found about about by accident, and didn't want to risk alerting anyone else to, as an example)

Anyway, before I ramble on too much more, onto the topic of the question here - in the second adventure, I want to have the players go up against Zhentarim agents. The issue is, I'm having trouble figuring out what the Zhentarim would be doing in particular to draw the players (who are all aligned with Cormanthyr to one extent or another) interest - the Zhentarim may want to weaken and destabilize Cormanthyr, but I don't think they want to threaten their access to the Moonsea Ride given the situation they face wrt the Black Road.

The idea I'm sort of leaning towards now is that the Zhents are trying to pay or persuade the savage humanoids of the Thunder Peaks and Desertmouth Mountains to attack Cormanthyr - not under the expectation it will do much, but anything to hurt the elves a little on the cheap. (Maybe they also help a few tribal leaders force other tribes into their control, to make the orcs/goblins/etc more dangerous).

But that feels a little bland and generic.

The other idea that's come to mind is that the Zhentarim agents *are* in the Desertmouth Mountains, but they're actually looking to recruit the savage humanoids as muscle for something else entirely, but the players are tricked into thinking it's about attacking Cormanthyr - with the Eldreth Veluuthra seeking to restart the Cormanthyr War, or at least, increase tensions further between Cormanthyr and the Zhentarim.

But short of those ideas, like I said, I'm drawing a blank on what the Zhentarim might be doing to draw in the players.

Halisstra Melarn Deserved Better

Edited by - Kylia Quilor on 22 Mar 2021 19:18:27

Diffan
Great Reader

USA
4425 Posts

Posted - 22 Mar 2021 :  20:07:21  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
One thing comes to mind is the Zhentarim's recently failed excursion into the taking of various Dales in the Dalelands, one of Cormanthyr's prominent allies at this time. Their loss during the 1375 war might have them a bit scattered, leaving behind toop emplacements throughout that region.

One might make the assumption that this band of "Left-behind" Zhents are being run by a fractious commander who refuses to yield, so he hides out with a small band of zhent regimen in order to sow chaos and cause conflict between the allies of the Dales and Cormanthyr. By hiring humanoid monsters (orcs, goblins, maybe some hobgoblins and ettens) to pillage and cause disruption, he uses them as a distraction to plant evidence of Dalesman doings in Cormanthyr's areas or maybe have these monsters carry items that are found exclusively with Dalseman. And maybe the Zhents attack Dalesman with elven styled arrows or they have a few Zhent mages use Disguise self to make them appear like elves pushing their agenda for more control over the area of their forebears.

While the Eldruuth Veluuthra hate the Zhents, seeing them cause distrust makes them a useful pawn, so maybe they help them in supplying them with elven items (arrows, armor, uniforms, or maybe teach them some common elvish expletives that help make their ruse more believable).
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Demzer
Senior Scribe

873 Posts

Posted - 22 Mar 2021 :  21:42:10  Show Profile Send Demzer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Memory is fuzzy but the terms of the treaty are quite strict so the Zhents would not be able to make open moves against Cormanthyr ... but the Dales are fair game.

So maybe the Zhents are busy dealing with the Dales while they have someone else (monstrous humanoids, mercs, assorted bandits, scattered remnants of the different factions that battled in the last few years, ...) harrass the elves.

Maybe the players can be involved by investigating the anonymous middlemen that are brokering the Zhents deals with the other parties.

Personally, I would work the monstrous inhabitants populating the Mines of Tethyamar in: the Zhents were trying to capture at least a few levels (or maybe I made this up? Can't remember ...) and finding a deal with the goblinoids and the barghests seems better than fighting them. So the Zhents might supply minor magic items, slaves/sacrifices from the Dales and whatever else while the monstrous inhabitants of the Mines mount raids againts the elves.
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Kylia Quilor
Acolyte

USA
17 Posts

Posted - 22 Mar 2021 :  23:56:07  Show Profile Send Kylia Quilor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer

Memory is fuzzy but the terms of the treaty are quite strict so the Zhents would not be able to make open moves against Cormanthyr ... but the Dales are fair game.

So maybe the Zhents are busy dealing with the Dales while they have someone else (monstrous humanoids, mercs, assorted bandits, scattered remnants of the different factions that battled in the last few years, ...) harrass the elves.

Maybe the players can be involved by investigating the anonymous middlemen that are brokering the Zhents deals with the other parties.

Personally, I would work the monstrous inhabitants populating the Mines of Tethyamar in: the Zhents were trying to capture at least a few levels (or maybe I made this up? Can't remember ...) and finding a deal with the goblinoids and the barghests seems better than fighting them. So the Zhents might supply minor magic items, slaves/sacrifices from the Dales and whatever else while the monstrous inhabitants of the Mines mount raids againts the elves.


The terms are pretty strict - grand history of the realms says the treaty won't even let Zhents more than thirty paces off the road. Nor can they injure/kill an elf or cut down a living tree. But the Dales aren't included at all - which does leave them somewhat vulnerable. And it dovetails with a side-detail I was planning to mention, that some people (some) in some of the Dales - the weaker or most pro-elf Dales - are suggesting changing the relationship of the Dales Compact from one of alliance to one of Cormanthyr assuming a certain amount of suzerainity over the Dales (amount and degree in debate amongst those people). Obviously, this idea isn't popular with everyone, especially in some Dales more than others. (Archendale is the least happy about all that has followed since the Elves renewed the Dales Compact)

The idea of a rogue Zhent commander sounds pretty interesting too, I have to admit, @Diffan. Thank you. Especially in terms of the Veluuthra manipulating and aiding like you're suggesting. I like it. Because then if Cormanthyr bitches to Fzoul, he can say 'hey, you guys were behind it, look at all these elven weapons they were given'.

Much appreciated, both of you. ^^

Halisstra Melarn Deserved Better
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
4425 Posts

Posted - 23 Mar 2021 :  18:58:51  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Glad I could help. If you need some custom bad-guys for 3.5 just let me know

Edited by - Diffan on 23 Mar 2021 18:59:59
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe

USA
403 Posts

Posted - 24 Mar 2021 :  11:15:43  Show Profile Send SaMoCon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Do you want your players to just hack at problems? The set up seems to me that the specific setting details was in the failure of physical force to solve the Zhent's problems and these devious agents are resorting to... less physical force to achieve their goals? The Cold War that started after WW2 stopped was not about violent confrontations but a series of diplomatic maneuvers, propaganda appeals, covert actions, subversive intrigues, grand objectives, and petty schemes for influence that sometimes failed by turning into proxy wars. Why not make this specter of espionage loom large instead of the forgettable-villian-of-the-week that the players are predestined to slay?

If I were the GM I would be having the Zhents creating tensions between the Dalesmen and the Cormanthyr elves by inciting altercations between the two, framing one group for transgressions against the other, spreading misinformation about the activities of either, peddling sensitive information to opportunistic 3rd parties, murdering the dignitaries in the other side's territory, winning over indigenous dissident groups for domestic operations, supporting political opposition figures championing the degradation of the national interests, and a host of other actions that cannot be simply killed without causing (inter)national scandals. Carefully executed operations of bribery, kidnapping, blackmail, and assassination using criminal catspaws are highly effective for subverting government officials and creating havens for further weakening & corrupting each nation. I would actually go one further and have the mastermind of these actions not even be the Zhents but an ambitious elf lord from a lesser noble house who is using the Zhents to undermine the other noble factions and prompt the targeted rulers into an ill-advised confrontation with the Dales that will create calls for their abdication. The players will have to chase evidence, coerce flunkies into divulging secrets, piece together snippets of information, convince suspicious officials, and risk their reputations when making accusations against respected members of society to thwart these kinds of plans.

Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for.
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Kylia Quilor
Acolyte

USA
17 Posts

Posted - 24 Mar 2021 :  14:24:30  Show Profile Send Kylia Quilor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, that is a really, really *really* good idea. It would make for a very interesting campaign or story.

That said, I'm not entirely confident in my ability to run something like that in 3.5e for the particular group of people I'm going to be running this game for, however. 3.5e may allow for intrigue/mystery/etc play, but it certainly isn't the centerpiece of it. At the end of the day this campaign isn't meant to be a primarily mystery game or a 'cold war espionage' game. While I do want to have some layers of mystery and investigation leading up to the big reveal of the Veluuthra manipulating events (and the players) when the players are around level 10/11 (midway through the campaign, though for all I know they'll figure it out early, as has happened to me as a GM before with other groups, for better and for worse, wrt to people sniffing out the BBEG's plans sooner than expected), I do also want to play something of a more conventional campaign. Not pure 'kick in the door, kill the monsters, get the treasure', obviously, but with combat still being a major focus. While the issue of the Zhentarim working against Cormanthyr is one part of this, I also have other things mapped out for the arc of the campaign that wouldn't be conducive to a more mystery mood.

Plus, what you're describing is an entire campaign, rather than a single adventure in a larger campaign. Nor am I trying to copy the Cold War itself - honestly, Cold War comparisons never even occurred to me before you mentioned it, though in hindsight, it should have occurred to me. But given that what you're talking about is much broader in scope than what I want to go for here (though I do appreciate the suggestions, all advice is welcome)...

That said, you are giving me some ideas for a two-staged adventure, involving piecing together what's going on before leading the players to the Zhents (falsely and not), so I could at least make a passing play at the more subtle angles of what the Zhentarim might be up to - you are right that they'd be doing other more subtle stuff too, and I have plans for that sort of thing to be implied, but there are some ways I could bring that to the fore for the adventure on a localized and smaller scale, hinting at broader trends that aren't the focus of the PCs.

Food for thought anyway, and appreciated.

Halisstra Melarn Deserved Better

Edited by - Kylia Quilor on 24 Mar 2021 14:25:11
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
4425 Posts

Posted - 24 Mar 2021 :  15:30:29  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon

If I were the GM I would be having the Zhents creating tensions between the Dalesmen and the Cormanthyr elves by inciting altercations between the two, framing one group for transgressions against the other, spreading misinformation about the activities of either, peddling sensitive information to opportunistic 3rd parties, murdering the dignitaries in the other side's territory, winning over indigenous dissident groups for domestic operations, supporting political opposition figures championing the degradation of the national interests, and a host of other actions that cannot be simply killed without causing (inter)national scandals.



That was kind of what I was going for, the Zhents being the primary villians that were unknowingly being manipulated by the Veluuthra. That said, there's a great prestige class for such agenst of dissent, called the Zhentarim Spy (Player's Guide to Faerūn) that would thrive in this sort of situation.
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Kylia Quilor
Acolyte

USA
17 Posts

Posted - 24 Mar 2021 :  15:50:18  Show Profile Send Kylia Quilor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I did note that class, and put it on the 'big list of classes for enemies in this campaign' - I don't know how deep I want to make the investigation/mystery stage if I go that route, so I'm not sure an NPC would really have a chance to make use of the classes features to the extent it would appear, but it does have some good stuff for espionage and intrigue play, true.

EDIT: Though, actually, the more I think about the notion, the more I think rejiggering the idea of the entire campaign somewhat to be more espionage-y might be interesting. Not quite to the extent that one could take it, but it does open some interesting angles for the storyline, actually.

Halisstra Melarn Deserved Better

Edited by - Kylia Quilor on 24 Mar 2021 18:21:59
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Khaelieth
Learned Scribe

103 Posts

Posted - 26 Mar 2021 :  14:25:23  Show Profile  Visit Khaelieth's Homepage Send Khaelieth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You could always have the Zhentarim having set up some mining or logging operation, which has pissed off the local fey (make them Unseelie Fey for extra spice). The Eldreth Veluuthra have offered their aid to the fey, but are also riling them up against all humans.

However, the Eldreth Veluuthra are ALSO the ones who tipped off the Zhentarim to said natural resource, knowing well what the fallout would be.

Also known on other forums as ChazSexington, Kusghuul, and Claudius.
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Kylia Quilor
Acolyte

USA
17 Posts

Posted - 26 Mar 2021 :  17:21:41  Show Profile Send Kylia Quilor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
ooooh. That is a nice touch - and it would help drive home how far gone the Eldreth is getting in letting hate drive, that they'd voluntarily sacrifice forests like that.

Halisstra Melarn Deserved Better

Edited by - Kylia Quilor on 26 Mar 2021 17:22:10
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