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 Laws of baldurs gate and prison for casters
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Erevan Illesere
Acolyte

Italy
38 Posts

Posted - 20 Mar 2021 :  15:05:26  Show Profile Send Erevan Illesere a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
So one of my players is about to be subjected to a trial at baldur's gate for the crime of aiding a criminal to escape and assaulting a flaming fist guard. My question thus is this: what are exactly the laws of baldurs gate? what are the punishments for breaking such laws? And if a caster is imprisoned how do the grand dukes or flaming fists make sure the caster does not escape using spells? Furthermore do they do trials by using the zone of truth spell?

Jack of blades

TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore

USA
1289 Posts

Posted - 20 Mar 2021 :  16:01:39  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The FR wiki article for Baldur's Gate mentions floggings and the like: https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Baldur%27s_Gate

The punishment for assault seems to be flogging. As for helping a criminal escape, what crime did they do? I would say the same punishment would be applied to his "accomplice". If the guy stole something, then the caster would very likely lose a finger.

There are a couple different mundane ways of keeping a caster from being able to cast. One is to prevent them from getting enough continuous rest to be able to cast spells. You can also use gags and what would basically be boxing gloves (no somatic gestures capable there) to keep spells from being cast. Also, I am sure there are also various compounds that would keep their mind befuddled enough to not be able to cast spells.

Magic could be used during the trial but if there are plenty of trustworthy witnesses, what is the point? From the view of the city, you already have enough evidence. That could change if there was a suspicion that there was something underhanded about the whole thing. The person voicing the suspicion would have to be some one of some authority with the city. Perhaps the character's friends could find some evidence of this and use it to convince the right person.

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Erevan Illesere
Acolyte

Italy
38 Posts

Posted - 20 Mar 2021 :  19:32:34  Show Profile Send Erevan Illesere a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

The FR wiki article for Baldur's Gate mentions floggings and the like: https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Baldur%27s_Gate

The punishment for assault seems to be flogging. As for helping a criminal escape, what crime did they do? I would say the same punishment would be applied to his "accomplice". If the guy stole something, then the caster would very likely lose a finger.

There are a couple different mundane ways of keeping a caster from being able to cast. One is to prevent them from getting enough continuous rest to be able to cast spells. You can also use gags and what would basically be boxing gloves (no somatic gestures capable there) to keep spells from being cast. Also, I am sure there are also various compounds that would keep their mind befuddled enough to not be able to cast spells.

Magic could be used during the trial but if there are plenty of trustworthy witnesses, what is the point? From the view of the city, you already have enough evidence. That could change if there was a suspicion that there was something underhanded about the whole thing. The person voicing the suspicion would have to be some one of some authority with the city. Perhaps the character's friends could find some evidence of this and use it to convince the right person.



The criminal they aided to escape is the cultist Korlazs, the cultist who supported Sarevok in baldur's gate 1, whom the player character meets in Siege of Dragonspear. As for the the boxing gloves and gag to hold spellcasters it's actually not bad as an idea as I think it would be a cost effective solution for baldur's gate. I mean in baldur's gate 2 Amn has the cowled wizards who have a special prison for wizards and they aren't really affiliated with the government of Athkatla so I don't think its common in forgotten realms to build super specialized prisons for wizars since they aren't that common in the first place.

Jack of blades
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1477 Posts

Posted - 22 Mar 2021 :  02:05:41  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Forgotten Realms has three different magocracies with more popping up every century. Wizards are a lot more common than anyone thinks; a spell-caster-only prison makes sense.
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore

1842 Posts

Posted - 22 Mar 2021 :  12:10:54  Show Profile Send The Arcanamach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I can't recall the details, but Ed has answered the question about magic being used during trials. In short, people don't trust magic enough to use it. If I recall, the zone of truth spell was specifically mentioned in the question he answered back then.

I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one.
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1477 Posts

Posted - 23 Mar 2021 :  01:03:25  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In a world where the existence of deities is an objective fact, the goddess of magic is the most powerful deity in the setting, and simple belief in moss and fungi lets you fart lightning bolts, having some weird bumpkin superstition regarding the use of magic in a court of law is bizarre. At least, the local lawful deity's church should have an overseer with a zone of truth, dispel magic or discern lies handy.

Lord help the judge if the accused had a glibness spell cast on him before the trial.

Accused: "I object to the accusation! I was, in fact, helping Elminster across the street while engaged in a duel with Manshoon, Szass Tam and Bargle and composing an ode to the Lady Tymora's bosom when I was supposedly sneaking out of his daughter's bedroom this morning!"
Judge: "That sounds legit."
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Demzer
Senior Scribe

873 Posts

Posted - 23 Mar 2021 :  10:26:23  Show Profile Send Demzer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's a whole can of "it depends".

I believe in Impiltur the Churches of the Triad are so intertwined with the kingdom that clerics of those churches are almost assuredly used in trials.
In Cormyr they got the War Wizards which are part of the government.
In Waterdeep they got the Watchful Order, in Neverwinter they got the ... forgot the name ... Manystarred Cloaks? Silverymoon got the Spellguard, in Baldur's Gate maybe the Flaming Fist has a couple of clerics or wizards to spare every now and then for important trials.

Most other places and small towns? Whatever the cleric/paladin/wizard offering their help would say, if they are not bound to the government by any kind of permanent ties they will not be believed just at face value.

On the other hand, having even the most basic means to detect magic (for cases like the mentioned glibness example), like a wand or a magic item, is probably something that's good enough for most trials (and you can buy the items from reliable sellers and not have to trust the word of a random magician).
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore

1842 Posts

Posted - 25 Mar 2021 :  00:01:46  Show Profile Send The Arcanamach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sure, but the ToT brought on a lot of mistrust towards magic as being unreliable and/or unstable. Not to mention magic can be defeated with other magic. So, at least in Ed's version, such magic isn't typically used during legal proceedings. Of course, that doesn't mean that such things aren't used secretly (I absolutely believe the war wizards do it).

I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one.

Edited by - The Arcanamach on 25 Mar 2021 00:02:43
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Erevan Illesere
Acolyte

Italy
38 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2021 :  18:09:57  Show Profile Send Erevan Illesere a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach

Sure, but the ToT brought on a lot of mistrust towards magic as being unreliable and/or unstable. Not to mention magic can be defeated with other magic. So, at least in Ed's version, such magic isn't typically used during legal proceedings. Of course, that doesn't mean that such things aren't used secretly (I absolutely believe the war wizards do it).



But what about the Erevis Cale trilogy where in Sembia they used the zone of truth spells for a trial and speak with the dead spell? Altough to be fair the spell was secretly altered trough another spell causing an innocent to be tried instead

Jack of blades
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore

1842 Posts

Posted - 23 May 2021 :  15:24:50  Show Profile Send The Arcanamach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I haven't read the novels but I was only speaking of an answer Ed gave years ago (which I could very well be misremembering now). Ed has also stated that much of what has made it into print has caused many of us to have a skewed idea of how much magic is actively 'seen' in the Realms. There are tons of minor uses through hedge wizards and those with 'wild' talents and such, but not actually much in the 'Realms Shattering Magic' aspect.

In fact, if you look at Ed's original writeups of the Knights of Myth Drannor (the the old Hall of Heroes book) you'll see that the Knights only have 'weak' magic items and I think no more that 1 - 3 each). They range in levels with the highest being 9th-level (I think) except for Dove.

Of course, that doesn't change the fact that what has made it into print makes the Realms LOOK as if every pretty daffodil you trod on is likely a an archmage in hiding, but Ed's version is somewhat different from that. Magic sells books, it would seem.

I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one.
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HighOne
Learned Scribe

214 Posts

Posted - 23 May 2021 :  15:45:32  Show Profile Send HighOne a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach

Ed has also stated that much of what has made it into print has caused many of us to have a skewed idea of how much magic is actively 'seen' in the Realms. There are tons of minor uses through hedge wizards and those with 'wild' talents and such, but not actually much in the 'Realms Shattering Magic' aspect.
Interesting. I wonder when that statement was made, and if Ed's position has changed over the years. It does seem that the Forgotten Realms has gotten more "high magic" over the years, in the sense that magic is more prevalent now than it was during 2E, for example.
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