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Alexander Clark
Learned Scribe
106 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Mar 2021 : 23:08:44
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So I found several threads claiming that Ed said a young child's soul goes to their parents' deity.
"Interestingly, children and infants who die are not classified as faithless. They are picked up by the celestial agents of their parent's deity."
But they don't quote/provide the link, sadly.
The closest thing to providing a source I could find was that:
"Indeed. There's several points of discussion in Ed's 06 replies." But I skimmed the Questions for Ed Greenwood (2006) and could not find anything about that subject. The closest Ed Greenwood's comment I could find is actually in Questions for Ed Greenwood (2007) and it's interesting, but not exactly that.
Firstly: I cannot comment on Zak; that’s a question for Bob to answer in his own way, at a time of his choosing.
Secondly: please remember there’s no “God’s guidance” in the Realms in a singular sense; the Realms has many gods, not One. Nor does the Christian, Jewish, Zoroastrian, etc. “burn in hell” coda to be expected or necessarily follows.
Thirdly: No soul is doomed through an inability to make choices, only by the choices that soul has made.
In other words, innocents do not have a single predetermined fate (despite the propaganda of some Faerûnian sages and churches; i.e. what you may have read in various published adventures or sourcebooks).
There are (obviously) many gaps in the knowledge folk of Faerûn have of their own cosmology, and even more in what we gamers and readers know of it; there are errors and omissions in the published canon (and NOTHING is eternal, as the changing divine roster and multiverse views prove).
I cannot (NDAs again) close all those gaps, clean up all the fuzzy bits, and Reveal All, here or in print anywhere soon. So you’ll just have to trust me when I say that all souls have fates, mortals cannot yet know all of those fates nor reliably know what fate a specific innocent soul will end up experiencing. So whatever a DM decides, holds true for that campaign and that soul - - but any wise DM will discuss religious beliefs with all of his/her players beforehand, and establish the “comfortable for all” ground rules. This is definitely a place where the game should be tailored to each group of gamers. I have never been a fan of either predestiny or absolutes - - and if you examine the D&D rules carefully and dispassionately, throughout all their editions, neither is the game system. It embraces concepts of good and evil, of achievement and teamwork, of ethical and religious belief and system, but it is posited on player characters having freedom in their actions (hence, “beating” predestination), and having to make life choices continually (arguing against absolutes).
This “wiggle room” or “elbow room” is the space we all need to tell stories and have adventures.
Can anyone provide the actual Ed Greenwood's quote about parents?
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Edited by - Alexander Clark on 11 Mar 2021 23:10:12
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2021 : 23:46:18
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From the scroll you first linked I note this: quote:
Posted - 10 Jan 2014 : 20:53:52 <snip> CorellonsDevout <snip> Reply with Quote
According to Ed's Forgotten Realms book that came out last year, when a mortal dies, even if they didn't directly worship a deity, most Faeraunians acknowledge the gods' existence, and when they die, their soul will be taken in by the god who best fits their ideology. A loose example would be a guardsman who secretly has a love of gardening and nature. He might be taken in by Chauntea instead of Helm or Torm. That's a rough example, but there you go.
I am not sure which book by Ed was released 2013 (maybe late 2012).
Edit: Sniped some header information from copied post. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 11 Mar 2021 23:50:11 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2021 : 00:31:27
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| What about children of parents that had no deity? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Alexander Clark
Learned Scribe
106 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2021 : 01:21:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
From the scroll you first linked I note this
I am pretty sure they are referring to Ed Greenwood Presents Elminster's Forgotten Realms, which indeed has things like that, but doesn't talk about kids especially AFAIK.
"The average Faerûnian lives long enough to
worship (or serve through one’s actions) one deity
above all others—though in many cases, which
deity a given person has served most might not be
clear to a dying mortal or anyone else."
"Otherwise, he ends up in the afterlife
serving the deity most appropriate to his moral
and ethical outlook. Only those who repudiate
the gods (or who as a result of their actions are
renounced by their gods), despoil altars and frustrate
the clerical aims of any deity, or never pray
or engage in any form of deliberate worship will
qualify as either Faithless or False." |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2021 : 01:54:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
What about children of parents that had no deity?
The default is people honor many deities, that if not one patron the one most honored. It would thus be for a child of such parents the one most followed between them. If both parents deemed faithless it either comes down to child being faithless, or deity having greatest claim from Grand parents I would guess. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2021 : 02:24:48
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| Knowing Kelemvor, those children may be plastered on the Wall without any remorse. The guy is an unforgiving god in that regard. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3736 Posts |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2021 : 04:04:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Knowing Kelemvor, those children may be plastered on the Wall without any remorse. The guy is an unforgiving god in that regard.
Ouch that would make him Shar^10. I can't imagine him being like that, I remember when he became uncaring (was it Crucible?), but I never remember him being sadistic. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2021 : 05:59:15
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| This discussion/topic is just another reason why I dislike the wall so much. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2021 : 08:58:57
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| Can we get a way to post in these forums the "Ah s**t, here we go again" meme from GTA? |
Edited by - Demzer on 12 Mar 2021 08:59:39 |
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Alexander Clark
Learned Scribe
106 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2021 : 09:38:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
Can we get a way to post in these forums the "Ah s**t, here we go again" meme from GTA?
I don't want to talk about the Wall. I just want a source for something that people seem to assume is a common knowledge and was mentioned by several people including some forum staff. I'd ask in a thread I linked, but it was closed. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2021 : 12:49:06
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Um, Lurue takes them..... I heard it from... a talking owl.... and they're wise... and Lurue takes them to a place where there's cotton candy and lollipops. To note, none of the lollipops seem to last past 3 lickings though. She doesn't keep the souls though, but rather they are reborn as talking animals..... yeahhhhhhh.... that's what happens. For those who need to know the name of the owl to quote them, its name was Alaeralie.  |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 12 Mar 2021 13:11:25 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2021 : 13:39:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Knowing Kelemvor, those children may be plastered on the Wall without any remorse. The guy is an unforgiving god in that regard.
I don't see why he'd do that. It's not like the kids had a chance to reject the gods. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3736 Posts |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1286 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2021 : 03:30:24
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| If I had to make a ruling on it, myself, I'd say that children who die too young to worship would be reincarnated -- send the soul back so it can make a choice. |
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2021 : 03:45:32
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Kelemvor isn't uncaring. His emphasis is on fairness without allowing his emotions and desires to weight his judgements with bias.
As such, Kelemvor also has the experience of how messy things were for his former Seraph Avner. He needed to make new rules for children, especially if fairness was to be his doctrine as Judge of the Dead.
I believe that the most logical course he would have taken in the wake of the Avatar series is to set up a system where children are set aside to either be picked up by deities willing to petition for the children's fates, or the children gain citizenship and grow up within Kelemvor's divine realm.
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2021 : 05:16:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
Kelemvor isn't uncaring. His emphasis is on fairness without allowing his emotions and desires to weight his judgements with bias.
I'm afraid that is the very definition of being uncaring. If your emotions and desires are not involved in something, you literally cannot care. Bias is always a part of caring. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2021 : 05:25:47
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| I think Lathander might petition for many/most/all of them as the god of birth, youth and renewal and I think Wooly and others have the right of it. As children unable to establish a belief system and make a choice, I don't think Kelemvor would punish them in any way. At worst, he'd take them on himself in the afterlife unless some other deity could reasonably petition for their soul...and I think he'd be very strict about that. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1286 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2021 : 12:41:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Ed has said many times on twitter that the wall is mostly propaganda so you may as well ignore it
Do you think he truly "believes" that or do you think he said that in order to allay the unease/anger more modern attitudes have against the idea of the wall? |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2021 : 16:51:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Ed has said many times on twitter that the wall is mostly propaganda so you may as well ignore it
Do you think he truly "believes" that or do you think he said that in order to allay the unease/anger more modern attitudes have against the idea of the wall?
Ed has said, repeatedly, that everything we know about the gods is propaganda. Our info on the divinity of the Realms is all either collective belief on the part of mortals, or the information the gods have given them.
A great example is Mystra's Ban. It's described everywhere, including in source material, as being a thing she did.
However, per Ed:
quote:
@TheEdVerse
Ao cut off access through the Weave to spells above a certain power level (9th level in Torilian arcane magic terms) after the Folly of Karsus the over-reaching mortal. This means that more powerful spells fail upon casting when they access the Weave; it doesn’t matter who casts them (so the spells of gods, archdevils, demon princes would fail, when cast into Realmspace, out of Realmspace, or within Realmspace).
IF those spells use the Weave.
There are rituals and magic systems that don’t use the Weave, but the archmagi, covens of witches or hags, cabals of warlocks, and so on DO use the Weave in their rituals. Like the transplanted-to-Abeir wizards of Toril I mentioned in my earlier lore reply, such individuals would have to learn, or invent, an entire new system of magic to circumvent the Weave, and this would be hard for them without an expert tutor, because what they’re used to, which influences how they’d experiment and innovate, IS using the Weave; they’d have to go against all instinct and learned behavior. Like one of us getting behind the wheel of a vehicle and overcoming our learned tendencies to steer with the steering wheel and accelerate or brake using the pedals...because this new vehicle steers with taps of the peddles and accelerates or brakes by turning the wheel.
Do-able, but I anticipate many spectacular crashes.
#Realmslore
@Greysil_Tassyr
Wait -- *AO* is the one that banned those spells? So Mystra's Ban, as we've known it for so long, was actually Ao's ban?
@TheEdVerse
Yes. We know it in the Realms as Mystra's Ban because of priestly teachings (propaganda). "Regular folk" know nothing of Ao, but everyone knows about the goddess of magic.
At the time the Ban was enacted, Mystryl was in no condition to ban anything, and Mystra didn't exist yet.
#Realmslore
So given that what we know about the gods is not necessarily trustworthy, it seems reasonable to me to assume the same for the Wall. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 13 Mar 2021 16:52:43 |
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2021 : 17:24:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
Kelemvor isn't uncaring. His emphasis is on fairness without allowing his emotions and desires to weight his judgements with bias.
I'm afraid that is the very definition of being uncaring. If your emotions and desires are not involved in something, you literally cannot care. Bias is always a part of caring.
Kelemvor cares about being fair. He cares about the cosmic balance. It's not that he holds no emotions and desires, it's that he doesn't allow them to sway his decisions away from fairness.
If he truly was uncaring, he could just walk away from it all or just automate the system entirely. No, Kelemvor cares a great deal for he has glimpsed the terrifying consequences of unfair bias.
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2021 : 17:41:05
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That's its why he was about to plaster Adon to the Wall for renouncing his god, even when he knew Adon was being manipulated by Cyric with madness to do that (so, he hold a mentally ill person, not to mention one who was being manipulated as well, accountable for his acts).
Yeah, the book definition of fairness at its best. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 13 Mar 2021 17:42:21 |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1286 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2021 : 18:09:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Ed has said many times on twitter that the wall is mostly propaganda so you may as well ignore it
Do you think he truly "believes" that or do you think he said that in order to allay the unease/anger more modern attitudes have against the idea of the wall?
Ed has said, repeatedly, that everything we know about the gods is propaganda. Our info on the divinity of the Realms is all either collective belief on the part of mortals, or the information the gods have given them.
...
So given that what we know about the gods is not necessarily trustworthy, it seems reasonable to me to assume the same for the Wall.
Schrodinger's canon, then? |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2021 : 18:30:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Ed has said, repeatedly, that everything we know about the gods is propaganda. Our info on the divinity of the Realms is all either collective belief on the part of mortals, or the information the gods have given them.
...
So given that what we know about the gods is not necessarily trustworthy, it seems reasonable to me to assume the same for the Wall.
Schrodinger's canon, then?
We know that Kelemvor is the god of the dead. We know that souls go to the deity they worshipped most or whose teachings they most closely followed. There's just a question about those that fall through the proverbial cracks.
And oddly, though only a small percentage of the dead ever have to worry about the Wall, there is a fixation on them amongst Realms fans. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 13 Mar 2021 18:30:32 |
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2021 : 19:05:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
That's its why he was about to plaster Adon to the Wall for renouncing his god, even when he knew Adon was being manipulated by Cyric with madness to do that (so, he hold a mentally ill person, not to mention one who was being manipulated as well, accountable for his acts).
Yeah, the book definition of fairness at its best.
Adon's situation was during Kelemvor's growing pains phase, before he knew what the Baator he was doing as Judge of the Dead.
It's not like it hasn't been a century+ since the events of the Avatar series and Kelemvor hasn't learned anything in hindsight.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2021 : 19:58:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
That's its why he was about to plaster Adon to the Wall for renouncing his god, even when he knew Adon was being manipulated by Cyric with madness to do that (so, he hold a mentally ill person, not to mention one who was being manipulated as well, accountable for his acts).
Yeah, the book definition of fairness at its best.
Adon's situation was during Kelemvor's growing pains phase, before he knew what the Baator he was doing as Judge of the Dead.
It's not like it hasn't been a century+ since the events of the Avatar series and Kelemvor hasn't learned anything in hindsight.
And Kelemvor may not have had a choice. We don't know enough about the Wall to know the full reasoning for why it was created. Maybe Myrkul created the Wall, entirely on his on initiative -- or maybe Ao ordered Myrkul to create the Wall to make sure no god would get freebies, and made it unconditional as to who went in. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2021 : 19:58:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
Kelemvor isn't uncaring. His emphasis is on fairness without allowing his emotions and desires to weight his judgements with bias.
I'm afraid that is the very definition of being uncaring. If your emotions and desires are not involved in something, you literally cannot care. Bias is always a part of caring.
Kelemvor cares about being fair. He cares about the cosmic balance. It's not that he holds no emotions and desires, it's that he doesn't allow them to sway his decisions away from fairness.
If he truly was uncaring, he could just walk away from it all or just automate the system entirely. No, Kelemvor cares a great deal for he has glimpsed the terrifying consequences of unfair bias.
I fully understand what you are trying to say...you believe he cares about fairness.
I just happen to disagree completely.  |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3736 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2021 : 05:06:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If I had to make a ruling on it, myself, I'd say that children who die too young to worship would be reincarnated -- send the soul back so it can make a choice.
-Personally, that makes the most sense. I know R.A. Salvatore reincarnated his main characters, but what other examples are there in-setting. I'm drawing a blank. Resurrected, yes, but reincarnated as someone/something else, not so much. |
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Alexander Clark
Learned Scribe
106 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2021 : 05:21:25
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quote:
Personally, that makes the most sense. I know R.A. Salvatore reincarnated his main characters, but what other examples are there in-setting. I'm drawing a blank. Resurrected, yes, but reincarnated as someone/something else, not so much.
Most elves get reincarnated if we were to apply 5e cosmology to the Realms (which is debatable I think?) From Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes:
"Each birth represents an elf soul that has been to Arvandor and returned. Mortal elves cannot know if it is the soul of someone recently dead or someone who died millennia ago. They cannot even be certain it is an elf of the same world." |
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Children and the wall.
