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DM_Megan
Acolyte

2 Posts

Posted - 07 Feb 2021 :  11:35:00  Show Profile Send DM_Megan a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
People who know me know that I’m not a fan of gods as characters and tend to prefer to keep them more mythical and reinterpret anything they did as being done by mortals.

I’m looking at the Descent of the Drow and the events that led up to it. What sources do we have that detail this event and those that led up to it?

To be honest having the “dark” elves as the villains is something I’d like to rework. And to be honest the events that led up to it appear to be “war” which means there are rarely good guys and bad guys. So it seems pretty easy to reframe, although the details I have around the Descent of the Drow are slim.

I’m using the Grand History of the Realms as my primary source right now. Assuming the “traditional portrayal” is gold elf propaganda, it appears to me that the green elves and dragons seemed to have had some sort of arrangement and peace and after the high elves fled the Faerie Realm the high elves appear to just consistently pick fights until the dracorage occurs (which they cause). From that point on the gold elves seemed to be aggressive towards the green elves (at which point a distinction between dark elves and other green elves starts to be established).

There are some cases where peace and harmony exists among dark elves and high elves (almost exclusively with moon elves), but tension for the most part continues. And while there are some instances of dark elves appearing to make unprovoked attacks, the gold elves seem to do far more.

The first crown war seems to be unequivocally the fault of the gold elves. And then an interesting thing happens: The Grand History takes a very negative stance towards the dark elves who start the second crown war (which one could see as either retribution for the first crown war or even a preemptive strike after learning an attack by the gold elves was imminent).

The dark elves commit the terrible crime of using fire, but this was after the gold elves had done some pretty awful things (they invented the dracorage for example). The dark elves are accused of using “corrupt magic” but no real details as to what is corrupt. More emotive language is used to describe the dark elves as “unrepentantly evil” for... using undead and monsters? Whereas the gold elves annex yet another dark elf kingdom.

We then get the third crown war which sees gold elf turn on gold elf. And then with seemingly no provocation they unleash the Dark Disaster upon the dark elves.

Now yes, the dark elves do start openly worshipping evil gods. And then 450 years later Corellon curses them and ALL DARK ELVES transform into the Drow.

It seems highly unusual to me that the gold elves escape divine punishment whereas all dark elves (regardless of their individual actions) are cursed.

Is this truly how things went down? Am I missing something? Because it looks like the high elves invaded faerun and were welcomed by the green elves. The high elves attacked the dragons and committed terrible war crimes, systematically attacked green elf settlements until they finally pushed the dark elves to evil. And then wrote history to present dark elves as the aggressors and it was only through the will of the gods that the Drow were banished from the surface.

Kentinal
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4684 Posts

Posted - 07 Feb 2021 :  14:58:43  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I found this https://www.deviantart.com/phasai/art/Ilythiir-190603394 which appears fan work with quotes from novels and source books.

It does start with a history that dates from –30000 DR War of the Seldarine and the rise of Lolth before the Crown Wars. The coming of the Ilythiir to Toril and their many actions before the Crown Wars, some clearly indicating evil or corrupting events.

I would have to guess that the lore is not completely correct now as Dark elves are now green elves and this time line clearly does not know that.

However I do agree that the Gold Elves clearly started the Crown wars. They also appear not to have been punished as a race for their leadership actions the way the dark elves were.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 07 Feb 2021 :  15:13:42  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This is the same problem I have with the elven history. I think the original intention was to make the situation far more nuanced than the current elven propaganda suggests (especially with the vague hints to "dark magic"--vagueness is always fishy), but that later developers decided to turn it into "hurr durr, dark skin elves bad, light skin elves good", while forgetting to actually change the lore.

Especially when you consider that the "good guys" sun elves literally magic nuked a whole Eilistraean nation because its people refused to be annexed, which resulted in Eilistraee being essentially K.O.-ed for the time being, while Lolth and Vhaeraun and Ghaunadaur (whom Eilistraee had fought in Ilythiir while the Seldarine did absolutely nothing, and of whose actions she had already warned the other elven kingdoms) gained influence. Basically, the whole Seldarine and the elven kingdoms knew exactly what was going on in Ilythiir, they shrugged at a whole peaceful and flourishing dark elven nation being erased, then they acted all outraged when they "found out" that--gasp!--the Ilythiiri had cults of the Dark Seldarine. The exact same gods that they didn't give a flying about when Eilistraee warned them, leaving her on her own. That they had neglected for literal millennia, when Lolth had even little to no influence and could have easily been dealt with. Actually, for Lolth, their actions even helped her rise to prominence (remember when they exterminated a lot of Ilythiiri--mostly Vhaeraun's followers--just to make an island, which allowed Lolth to have a chance at building a cult?). But yeah, the solution surely lies in cursing a whole people, including surviving Eilistraee's followers, including innocents and random commoners, essentially and ultimately pushing most of them even more under the influence of said "dark gods". Lol.

If the action of the dark elven rulers/nobles/soldiers were more than enough to label a whole race as evil, then why wasn't the same applied to the sun elves, who were in the exact same situation? The Ilythiiri rulers had been corrupted by demons, sure, but the sun elven ones had been corrupted by a fallen solar and his cronies, which is exactly the same? But nah, those dark elves used *fire*, man. Worst war crime ever.

Now, don't get me wrong, doing something loike this is fine as long as you let people know that history is written by victors, and a lot of this stuff is elven propaganda. But when your history reads like this, and then you say "and so, 99% of the dark elves are evil"... yeah, you got a problem.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 07 Feb 2021 15:16:27
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe

USA
883 Posts

Posted - 07 Feb 2021 :  19:26:38  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Descent of the Drow sounds like yet another botched High Magic Ritual just like the Sundering circa -17000 DR. If it were not botched, then I would conclude the ritual was sabotaged. Either way, Malkizid and Lolth were probably laughing at the guarantee of interracial elven wars for thousands of years to come.
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
4211 Posts

Posted - 07 Feb 2021 :  19:48:08  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As written in the Forgotten Realms, I'm not a fan of the Descent of the Drow.

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!
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Kentinal
Great Reader

4684 Posts

Posted - 07 Feb 2021 :  20:04:19  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

The Descent of the Drow sounds like yet another botched High Magic Ritual just like the Sundering circa -17000 DR. If it were not botched, then I would conclude the ritual was sabotaged. Either way, Malkizid and Lolth were probably laughing at the guarantee of interracial elven wars for thousands of years to come.



High Magic has at least for RSE always appear to be botched, though clearly sabotage is clearly possible. When one has so many mages involved it clearly is possible one or more within the ritual could do that, also however with so many working on such a grand spell a deity or other powerful mages might notice and decide to become involved to sabotage.
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DM_Megan
Acolyte

2 Posts

Posted - 07 Feb 2021 :  21:30:33  Show Profile Send DM_Megan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Good to see I’m not the only one who goes a bit bug eyed at how this is all presented. Are there any other sources which fleshes it out and provides greater details?
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1477 Posts

Posted - 07 Feb 2021 :  23:59:57  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The hilarity is that dark elves were bad news long before Lolth. Kiaransalee triggered an undead apocalypse on her home planet for laughs.

Edited by - LordofBones on 08 Feb 2021 00:00:09
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe

469 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2021 :  09:43:40  Show Profile  Visit PattPlays's Homepage Send PattPlays a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

The hilarity is that dark elves were bad news long before Lolth. Kiaransalee triggered an undead apocalypse on her home planet for laughs.


I would also add on that the Ilythiir elves were pretty awful but

I mean

literally every elf with ancestry in Faerun (the one land and the modern sundered land) has multiple ELVEN generations of ancestors who were unabashed open warfare mass murders of their own kind 24/7 for like 7000 years or something.

With the Crown Wars in mind, are the Ilithiir and Clan Hune and the first drow and all really that much worse than any other elf who existed then?

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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2021 :  13:35:20  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

The hilarity is that dark elves were bad news long before Lolth. Kiaransalee triggered an undead apocalypse on her home planet for laughs.



And if the Evermeet novel is to be taken as canon, they definitely worshipped her before Lolth.

I still say she makes a great goddess to interrelate with the raven queen and with Ereshkigal. Especially given that the Ilythiiri were down in the Shaar/shining south areas, I could easily see the humans who come along later picking up her worship as "Ereshkigal" and carry that worship all the way down into Zakhara.

To get on the godly soapbox for a minute, given the very real world "links" that seem to be drawn between Inanna and Ishtar, yet having the two so very different in realmslore (such that Inanna is noted as dying, but Ishtar specifically "leaves and gives her power to Isis"), it might make for a good point to have a story which has Inanna and Ishtar to have once been the same being. In classic myth, she as a goddess is known for taking the powers/portfolios from other gods. The story of Inanna/Ishtar descending to the underworld to challenge Ereshkigal would make a good spot to have the death goddess split her into two beings... one good and one evil.... one peaceful and the other still power hungry. Literally the story is that when she challenges her sister Ereshkigal, she's killed and her flesh is hung from meat hooks. Its kind of like saying her godspirit was ripped from her body and the godflesh was left behind in the world. When Inanna dies in the orcgate wars possibly later and Ishtar leaves might make for a good time for Loviatar to come in and Eldath to come about as well to take on the two roles (especially Eldath being prime bound, she may have been a high priestess of Ishtar who does something with the godflesh of Ishtar to raise herself up as a goddess of peace, but is then cast out of Unther for sacrilege)


In short, I know it might take a bit, but it could really be some fun to actually look at Unther/Chessenta/Chondath/the Shaar and try to come up with a history of its pantheons. Unlike Mulhorand, which didn't seem to include "new" gods in its numbers, Unther did seem to incorporate such. Perhaps some gods were "born" from other manifestations. Perhaps some gods were imported. Perhaps some gods came over on a second trip of the ship of the gods. I think it could be very interesting to have Unther being more prolific and possibly extending into the shaar and all the way down into the shining lands, bringing the worship of Anu (as was originally written). Having the idea of the "Adama" coming about when all the gods die might be the way that they deal with the sudden death of lots of gods in the orcgate wars (i.e. maybe the big names listed were just a fraction of the number that died, and maybe there were a lot of demigods).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 09 Feb 2021 14:05:29
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3736 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2021 :  00:29:51  Show Profile Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

And if the Evermeet novel is to be taken as canon, they definitely worshipped her before Lolth.

-It's been a while since I read the book, but in the passage in question, Kethryllia Amarillis fought her way through the Abyss, meeting Kiaransalee in the process. As far as I am remembering, nothing said or insinuated that she was worshiped in Realmspace prior. Of the Drow pantheon, only Vhaeraun, Eilistraee, and Ghaundaur.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerűn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerűn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1477 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2021 :  09:24:27  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There's an interesting point to be made: did worship of Lolth drive the drow evil, or did the reverence of the drow turn Lolth evil? We know that belief is power in the planes, so it's a nice kind of double-whammy in that the drow perception of Lolth is what drove the goddess insane.

Just imagine what would happen if drow started worshipping Eilistraee as a goddess of treachery and subversion...
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2021 :  10:01:15  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think even Elaine said the novel should not be taken as fact.

I believe GHoTR implies that Lolth and the Seldarine were not worshipped in the realms until the Descent of the Drow.

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6638 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2021 :  10:13:04  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

I think even Elaine said the novel should not be taken as fact.



Correct, it's myths interspersed with some history as relayed by different individuals to Danilo Thann.

quote:

I believe GHoTR implies that Lolth and the Seldarine were not worshipped in the realms until the Descent of the Drow.



I wouldn't say this. GHotR doesn't state or imply this at all regarding the Seldarine. Corellon is specifically mentioned in the Sundering date of c. -17600 DR, for which I didn't have enough clout to get changed as I and others asked.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2021 :  12:20:47  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

I think even Elaine said the novel should not be taken as fact.

I believe GHoTR implies that Lolth and the Seldarine were not worshipped in the realms until the Descent of the Drow.



According to Evermeet, Lolth's worship started to extend to anything more than 1 dude after the Sundering, due to the extermination of many Vhaeraunites, which allowed her and Ghaunadaur to gain more prominence. If we go by LEoF, Lolth's corruption became widespread among the rulers of Ilythiir only during the 2nd Crown War, while the Ilythiiri people still didn't know how to worship the Dark Seldarine, or even whom they were actually worshipping. They had followed mostly Vhaeraun up to then, with Ghaunadaur coming second and with a few still whispering prayers to Eilistraee (who had fought Vhaeraun's/Ghaunadaur's influence on the dark elves far before, but ended up hunted away from Ilythiir and having followers nearly only in Miyeritar), but with Lolth and Kiaransalee becoming object of worship too, the Ilythiiri people sort of mixed deities together in their beliefs. Of course, since we gotta absolutely have those "muhahahaha! Evulz!" kind of villains, the evil Dark Seldarine just killed the people who did things wrongly. Rather than, you know, telling people how to distinguish them? I mean, if they can personally send lightnings from the skies to "smite the infidels", they can also talk, right?

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 10 Feb 2021 12:21:39
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe

469 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2021 :  06:12:16  Show Profile  Visit PattPlays's Homepage Send PattPlays a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

I think even Elaine said the novel should not be taken as fact.

I believe GHoTR implies that Lolth and the Seldarine were not worshipped in the realms until the Descent of the Drow.



According to Evermeet, Lolth's worship started to extend to anything more than 1 dude after the Sundering, due to the extermination of many Vhaeraunites, which allowed her and Ghaunadaur to gain more prominence. If we go by LEoF, Lolth's corruption became widespread among the rulers of Ilythiir only during the 2nd Crown War, while the Ilythiiri people still didn't know how to worship the Dark Seldarine, or even whom they were actually worshipping. They had followed mostly Vhaeraun up to then, with Ghaunadaur coming second and with a few still whispering prayers to Eilistraee (who had fought Vhaeraun's/Ghaunadaur's influence on the dark elves far before, but ended up hunted away from Ilythiir and having followers nearly only in Miyeritar), but with Lolth and Kiaransalee becoming object of worship too, the Ilythiiri people sort of mixed deities together in their beliefs. Of course, since we gotta absolutely have those "muhahahaha! Evulz!" kind of villains, the evil Dark Seldarine just killed the people who did things wrongly. Rather than, you know, telling people how to distinguish them? I mean, if they can personally send lightnings from the skies to "smite the infidels", they can also talk, right?


A logical progression of the spread of worship through the crown wars regarding the Ilythiir?

Slides this in my Ghaunadaur research document

:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, Long Live Pluto: :IRC lives:


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TKU
Learned Scribe

USA
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Posted - 19 Feb 2021 :  00:28:24  Show Profile Send TKU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Drow do come off as getting unequal treatment from Corellon for their actions in the Crown wars to me. The Sun Elves role in the Crown wars was pretty huge, so the fact that they didn't get anywhere near the punishment the Drow ended up getting seems a little arbitrary. I guess the creation of the Moonblades could be seen as a punishment, since they seem to do a good job of legitimizing moon elf leadership over the elves by their habit of incinerating the best and brightest ambitious young sun elf heirs of each generation who try to wield them. Still, at least Sun Elves aren't barred from the elven afterlife, and the Sun Elves never got hit with such a harsh collective punishment like the Drow did.


That seems pretty in-character for Corellon from what I have read so far though. He seems pretty arrogant and self centered despite whatever virtues he has, with a mercurial streak and a penchant for 'creative' bespoke punishments and dictates. It wouldn't surprise me that much that the god who was willing to let the Sundering go ahead knowing what it would do and not punish anyone for it would damn the drow for using fire. Although I think that the resemblance of the Dark Elves to his ex wife and them taking up worship of her might have tipped the scale more than a little.
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2021 :  01:33:21  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Corellon is pretty much elven Zeus, so yeah, a lot of personal bias was probably involved in making that decision.

Btw, his punishment for the Dark Elves wasn't creative at all. It literally was the "curse of Ham" from the Bible. Also, it was extremely ineffective. I mean, cursing people should obviously include just making a slight palette change to their look, leaving them invariably super hot, giving them sunlight sensitivity (which can be overcome with as little as 10 years spent on the surface), and believing that this would stop one of the most magically gifted people ever, right?

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.
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TKU
Learned Scribe

USA
158 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2021 :  05:35:29  Show Profile Send TKU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
'Elven Zeus' is a good way to put it. As the creator and paragon of elvenkind and their gods I don't think it's very much in his nature to engage in self reflection. Certainly he seemed blind to the simmering resentment coming from Araushnee over their relationship until it got twisted and ingrown into something much darker.

In the Evermeet novel there weren't any physical differences between pre-descent Dark Elves and post-descent Drow, with both described as having the characteristic black skin, white hair and red eyes. Which was nice, because the "curse of Ham" stuff makes me quite uncomfortable. Particularly with the LP series stuff, which from what I understand has the 'redemption' of the drow linked with having their skin lightened. I don't know how that saw print...
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2021 :  06:29:40  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, I agree about Evermeet, that was nice. However, other sources also paint the pre-descent dark elves as having dusky skin and white hailr (Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves). LP just took that and thought it was cool to associate redemption with a physical change.

As for LP, don't worry, that stuff has been excised from the Realms and buried where it won't ever rear its crappy face. WotC doesn't dare to touch it with a 10ft pole. As for how it saw print, it admittedly (on WotC side) was an attempt at making Drizzt and drow PCs the only "real" good (or "unique") drow, by erasing and trashing all the other drow cultures. Erik de Bie even commented that there was an attempt at making the readers dislike Eilistraee and her followers, which explains why the version of this goddess and her followers that Smedman and Athans describe in WotSQ and LP has *nothing* to do with the real Eilistraee, and is, in fact, quite the opposite of everything Eilistraee stands for, in the most disturbing ways possible. Like, line by line. The whole "brownification" thingy is one of the apex examples of this.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 19 Feb 2021 06:32:31
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe

USA
403 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2021 :  07:30:57  Show Profile Send SaMoCon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TKU

I don't know how that saw print...

A fictional race of a fictional world that has no equivalents what-so-ever to the real world and is only of interest to mostly geeky & unpopular pubescent boys? Most of the population of the planet has not, does not, and will not see this print. Kind of like why bikini armor, pretty & young (& often under-dressed) female subjects, and physically impressive but often fairly grotesque male subjects still populate the art found on D&D products. The audience is very narrow in the demographics and despite attempts to make it more inclusive has had no real effect.

The descriptions of the drow date back to over 40 years ago and the information has been incorporated, interpreted, shoe-horned, or jammed into multiple settings under the D&D umbrella in often inelegant ways. The people tasked with fleshing out details are chosen for their skills in enhancing the entertainment value of products, not in anthropological development, civil engineering, international diplomacy, or political sciences. Some of the origin of the drow and their relation to the elves is in the nordic mythology of Dökkálfar ("Dark Elves") and Ljósálfar ("Light Elves") that influenced JRR Tolkien whose works were the basis of Gary Gygax's D&D.

As for the powers of the drow, I thought that was hand-wavium by the authors in the form of radiations that subterranean beings were subjected to and not a result of the magic induced change. Other Underdark races (i.e., deep gnomes) are similarly turbo-charged compared to their surface dwelling counterparts.

Also, can we leave out misinterpretations of real world religious texts? That just invites discussion of these topics in a place where no one comes for that kind of discourse.

Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for.
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2021 :  07:59:38  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The issue TKU was referring to is a piece in a particular novel, in which a bunch of drow who were already good (or weren't even born in Lolthite society) got a forceful physical transformation (that did nothing but making their skin less dark, btw) as a "reward" for their goodness. The goal of the transformation literally was to render them acceptable in the eyes of the "good guy" god who cursed their ancestors (including plenty of innocents), because their life choices weren't enough for him to deem them ok and to admit them into his portion of Arvandor.

Meanwhile, in the same novel (set *far* after the Descent, btw), the rest of the drow (the ones with the darker skin, i.e. almost the whole race, since only a few hundreds got the "blessing") got universally labeled by said god as "unwilling and to be cast down", while his servants said that Eilistraee had exhausted her purpose, because there was no more need to redeem/save/whatever any other drow (because all of the remaining ones deserved to rot under Lolth). The book very clearly paints this as a positive happening, and even a victory. Oh, and all these events happened after the "rewarded" drow 1)had always been drow (since they were born as such) 2)never had any problem with being drow, and in fact considered it to be part of what they were.

Even without the ligh/dark skin issue, this is incredibly stupid and gross--it screams "your life choice don't matter, if you don't look like/aren't what certain people want, you don't deserve a place in the world". Or the issue with redemption being a physical transformation, or people needing to redeem for being born as a certain race (a very toxic idea prevalent in said novel). All stuff that is the exact opposite of the faith featured in the story (Eilistraee&followers).

It's a notoriously problematic series, born out of some childish fanboyism for Drizzt going on among the WotC staffers back in 2008, and that translated into said staffers trying to make anything drow that wasn't Drizzt or Lolth look like trash (or outright removing it). In short, it's trash content that deserved the retcon it got, and I'm glad that the people who came up with such idiocy no longer work on the FR.

------

Yes, the drow curse thingy is the exact same as the misinterpretation of a biblical passage, that was even used by certain individuals to support things like slavery. Keeping it (or even including it at all to begin with) is quite tone-deaf, tbh, especially when you can still have the drow as dark-skinned/white haired without saying "but Corellon cursed them so that their skin would reflect the evil inside!" In fact, Elaine's Evermeet does this, and it flows very well regardless.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 19 Feb 2021 15:04:06
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Irennan
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Posted - 19 Feb 2021 :  08:25:10  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
The audience is very narrow in the demographics and despite attempts to make it more inclusive has had no real effect.


This is just not true. D&D audience has grown immensely, and is now made up of a wide spectrum of people, including women, queer people, and people of color. For example, I remember reading last year that about 40% of the players identify as a woman.

Also, I suspect it's far more likely that the former near exclusive presence of dudes in the D&D audience was due to most products being tailored to appeal only to dudes (the kind of art you describe, for example), rather than to other people not being interested in TTRPG like D&D.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 19 Feb 2021 08:28:27
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LordofBones
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Posted - 19 Feb 2021 :  13:26:09  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Corellon gets a lot of flak for the whole drow issue, but Araushnee being off her rocker can no way be blamed on him.

Though, ironically, the Sundering actually worked out pretty well for elves that weren't drow. The drow that died were primarily worshipers of the only sane man on the dark seldarine, while the survivors were converted to the worship of a hedonistic lunatic that's succeeded in turning her chosen people into their own worst enemies.
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Irennan
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Posted - 19 Feb 2021 :  15:02:32  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That's because while Araushnee gets labeled as Stupid Evil (tm) like she deserves to, canon material portrays Corellon as the good guy of the situation. Meanwhile, not only he was petty to the core, he is the one who enabled Araushnee to do succeed (that, and A LOT of author/designer bias and plot armor, but that's another matter).

Even his punishment of Araushnee was likely about indulging into the gratification of revenge. What other reason could he have had to turn her into a spider, strip her of her powers, and throw her in a hellhole filled with beasts that only wanted to rip her to shreds? You certainly don't do something like that to someone because you love them so much you can't bring yourself to kill them.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 19 Feb 2021 15:05:35
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TKU
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Posted - 19 Feb 2021 :  16:20:32  Show Profile Send TKU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Angharradh's judgment for Lolth was the same as Vhaeraun's IIRC-exile. Turning her into a Tanar'ri, fighting her, and then not putting her out of her misery when she asked him to were all his decisions. Very 'Olympian' if we want to continue with that comparison, but probably far from the best outcome. Obviously killing Araushnee would have solved a lot of future problems. Now if he wanted to show mercy and spare her? Even if Lolth hadn't been turned into a demon and stewed in the Abyss for Millennia I don't see her not ending up as an evil goddess, but probably not *quite* as evil and more on the level of her son, and likely a great deal less insane. Either outcome would probably have been better for the elves as a whole.

Regardless, I think the Descent stuff come off as being due to the Dark Elves association with Lolth and thus comes off as rather arbitrary, but comes off as even moreso if the stuff about their skin color being changed is taken into account, because then we are talking about someone who considers the ultimate curse to be one that makes you look like their ex-wife. And then only being willing to take them back if they stop looking like your ex...yikes.
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sleyvas
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Posted - 19 Feb 2021 :  18:23:20  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

Corellon is pretty much elven Zeus, so yeah, a lot of personal bias was probably involved in making that decision.

Btw, his punishment for the Dark Elves wasn't creative at all. It literally was the "curse of Ham" from the Bible. Also, it was extremely ineffective. I mean, cursing people should obviously include just making a slight palette change to their look, leaving them invariably super hot, giving them sunlight sensitivity (which can be overcome with as little as 10 years spent on the surface), and believing that this would stop one of the most magically gifted people ever, right?



Well, I never heard of the curse of ham before this.... but I feel for those poor dark elves that must have walked in on Corellon while he was drunk at the urinal.

By the way, that is one messed up thing from the bible. Its kind of odd to me that I probably know more about norse myths now than Christianity, which was the religion I was raised in (admittedly, barely went to church as a kid).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 19 Feb 2021 18:32:51
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Irennan
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Posted - 19 Feb 2021 :  23:16:32  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TKU

Angharradh's judgment for Lolth was the same as Vhaeraun's IIRC-exile. Turning her into a Tanar'ri, fighting her, and then not putting her out of her misery when she asked him to were all his decisions. Very 'Olympian' if we want to continue with that comparison, but probably far from the best outcome. Obviously killing Araushnee would have solved a lot of future problems. Now if he wanted to show mercy and spare her? Even if Lolth hadn't been turned into a demon and stewed in the Abyss for Millennia I don't see her not ending up as an evil goddess, but probably not *quite* as evil and more on the level of her son, and likely a great deal less insane. Either outcome would probably have been better for the elves as a whole.

Regardless, I think the Descent stuff come off as being due to the Dark Elves association with Lolth and thus comes off as rather arbitrary, but comes off as even moreso if the stuff about their skin color being changed is taken into account, because then we are talking about someone who considers the ultimate curse to be one that makes you look like their ex-wife. And then only being willing to take them back if they stop looking like your ex...yikes.



One more point that reinforces the ex-wife thingy, is that Eilistraee had warned everyone that Ilythiir was under the influence of Vhaeraun--who's a racial supremacist and a warmonger--and Ghaunadaur (who's... well, Ghaunadaur).

So, the Seldarine knew, but they did nothing, while Eilistraee tried to contrast V's&G's influence alone only to end up hunted away alongside her followers.

Corellon always knew everything that was going on, but he never gave a flying about that until Lolth was mentioned.

My issue with this is not that Corellon's actions are questionable at best, but that the source material tries to paint him as good. In fact, as I said, my (admittedly devoid of proof) belief is that the original intention with the elven history was to paint a morally nuanced scenario, where no faction was objectively right. Hammering that the elves were the good guys must have been a decision taken in the editing process.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 19 Feb 2021 23:21:55
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Irennan
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Posted - 19 Feb 2021 :  23:18:55  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

Corellon is pretty much elven Zeus, so yeah, a lot of personal bias was probably involved in making that decision.

Btw, his punishment for the Dark Elves wasn't creative at all. It literally was the "curse of Ham" from the Bible. Also, it was extremely ineffective. I mean, cursing people should obviously include just making a slight palette change to their look, leaving them invariably super hot, giving them sunlight sensitivity (which can be overcome with as little as 10 years spent on the surface), and believing that this would stop one of the most magically gifted people ever, right?



Well, I never heard of the curse of ham before this.... but I feel for those poor dark elves that must have walked in on Corellon while he was drunk at the urinal.

By the way, that is one messed up thing from the bible. Its kind of odd to me that I probably know more about norse myths now than Christianity, which was the religion I was raised in (admittedly, barely went to church as a kid).



It was a misinterpretation of a passage, which was sadly used to justify messed up stuff like slavery. With religion, intentionally misinterpreting stuff and using that to advocate for atrocities seems to be a common thread, sadly.

However, this is definitely off-topic.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 20 Feb 2021 :  00:05:28  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

However, this is definitely off-topic.



Agreed, and an avenue that we don't need to go further down.

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SaMoCon
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Posted - 20 Feb 2021 :  09:58:10  Show Profile Send SaMoCon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Grousing about the elvish gods and how their actions were portrayed should be done in the Corellon Must Die thread.

The OP didn't like how the events went down with the elves and wanted to change that. The elves, all of them, are interlopers that were not native to the FR. They arrived after the dragons had won their war for dominance with the giants and represented a threat to the immigrant elves. The Dracorage was what the elves cursed the dragons with to break that dominance. The remaining giant powers were then dealt with wherever the elves decided to colonize. The spread and rise of multiple elvish nations set the stage for the Crown Wars. So, the transformation into drow of the dark elves and the execution of the responsible gold elves was what caused the dissonance with the OP. While the description is less than artful by those charged with creating these details, a person with a creative imagination can explain it. For example, the elf forces that were united against both group could get their hands on the gold elf empire and directly punish them while the dark elves and their green elf allies were able to evade all attempts to capture them or were too powerful to conquer. So the gold elves they were able to subjugate by the sword and behead the racial heads with the same blades, the dark elves (& a few others) got a high magic ritual that went awry (and, really, has there been one that went well?).

Several threads have already covered how unfair these events were and I can't be bothered to look them up, but that isn't what the OP was asking for. How can this be reimagined without breaking the history of the realms and necessitating massive changes through the butterfly effect. The easiest way to deal with the "all dark elves became drow" narrative is to say that wasn't true because only the actively evil elves worshipping forbidden gods were transformed and that there were non-evil elves whom were unchanged, but the destruction of Miyeritar and the release of enslaved monstrous being in Ilythiir too a toll on those populations with the survivors going the way of the Human Talfir - colonized and bred out of existence by the more populous elven blood lines.

And if anyone is really having a problem with the color of the drow skin - just make them plaid, it's magic, problem solved. If people can accept flying cats, invisible bridges, micro-managing gods, and a millenia-old wizard that bangs all the pretty girls, then they should be able to handle this.

Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for.
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