quote:

---

Originally posted by Erevan Illesere

So i've got a player who is a bhaalspawn half elf who is a criminal with a bounty on his head because he took refuge with some cultists to flee from the night masks (a criminal organisation he was part of). When the lords alliance captured the cultists he was taken to jail too whith a cultist he bacame friends with and romanced. At a point she tried to flee and 2 flaming fist guards tried to stop her until he intervened and attacked one. She fled casting invisibilty and he got sentenced to death, managed to escape and join the ranks of the zhentarim. Now he says he wants to turn a new leaf and join the harper organization...

So my question is "Can an outlaw join the Harpers?"

Ps: in the campaign world its common knowledge he's a bhaalspawn

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:

---

Originally posted by Erevan Illesere

So i've got a player who is a bhaalspawn half elf who is a criminal with a bounty on his head because he took refuge with some cultists to flee from the night masks (a criminal organisation he was part of). When the lords alliance captured the cultists he was taken to jail too whith a cultist he bacame friends with and romanced. At a point she tried to flee and 2 flaming fist guards tried to stop her until he intervened and attacked one. She fled casting invisibilty and he got sentenced to death, managed to escape and join the ranks of the zhentarim. Now he says he wants to turn a new leaf and join the harper organization...

So my question is "Can an outlaw join the Harpers?"

Ps: in the campaign world its common knowledge he's a bhaalspawn

---

The Harpers are less concerned with law and more concerned with acting as a check on evil groups.

So him being a criminal won't be a huge concern. They'll look closely into the circumstances, but once they're convinced of his innocence, they'll let it go.

Being a former Zhent, though -- that they'll pay a lot more attention to. As Returnip says, he'll have to atone and really prove himself, there, so they don't think it's a ploy to infiltrate their ranks.

---

quote:

---

@CoraxDCLXVI

Hey Ed. Since my digging hasn't revealed much past 1375 DR, I thought I'd ask the Master Sage. Is there still an official process for joining the Harpers in the 1490s? And who, if any, are the active Senior/High Harpers on the Sword Coast in the 1490s?


@TheEdVerse

It’s never been “official” in the formal public ceremony sense. What usually happens is that the Harpers spy on likely candidates for some time, and if they think at the end of that time that someone is suitable (senior Harpers have a veto over this), a senior Harper will approach the candidate in private (usually trying to arrange circumstances where no one will observe the Harper approach or depart the meeting, so it’s often at night, wherever the candidate is sleeping, or returning from a privy) and ask them if they’re interested. If they want time to think it over, any later approach will have the same privacy but the Harper will bring reinforcements, nearby but usually hidden, to deal with any ambushes. On acceptance, the candidate is given a Harper pin and a Harper mentor, who gives them their first mission, accompanies them on it (often spied on by another Harper), and answers any questions the candidate may have/renders them aid/becomes their once-a-tenday-or-a-month contact.
#Realmslore

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ayrik

In the real world, joiners with questionable or shady pasts are usually rejected or exploited or turned into pawns. Unless they bring something very useful and very special to the group (knowledge, skills, gadgets, whatever). Or unless the group's needs and circumstances are desperate.

And even if such turncoats do pass initial inspection, their pasts will continue to haunt them. The group will always contain some members who remain suspicious, who will demand more tests of loyalty, who may actually work towards fabricating situations which cause the undesirable to be expelled.

A group like the Harpers is very loosely distributed. They don't all gather for big meetings which keep all members updated. Miscommunications are plausible. Mistakes happen. Not everyone gets the message (or acknowledges the message) about new members - an ex-Zhent might be well advised to stay wary around his new allies.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

A recent Tweet from Ed himself:


[quote]@CoraxDCLXVI

Hey Ed. Since my digging hasn't revealed much past 1375 DR, I thought I'd ask the Master Sage. Is there still an official process for joining the Harpers in the 1490s? And who, if any, are the active Senior/High Harpers on the Sword Coast in the 1490s?


@TheEdVerse

It’s never been “official” in the formal public ceremony sense. What usually happens is that the Harpers spy on likely candidates for some time, and if they think at the end of that time that someone is suitable (senior Harpers have a veto over this), a senior Harper will approach the candidate in private (usually trying to arrange circumstances where no one will observe the Harper approach or depart the meeting, so it’s often at night, wherever the candidate is sleeping, or returning from a privy) and ask them if they’re interested. If they want time to think it over, any later approach will have the same privacy but the Harper will bring reinforcements, nearby but usually hidden, to deal with any ambushes. On acceptance, the candidate is given a Harper pin and a Harper mentor, who gives them their first mission, accompanies them on it (often spied on by another Harper), and answers any questions the candidate may have/renders them aid/becomes their once-a-tenday-or-a-month contact.
#Realmslore

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Erevan Illesere


Alright then maybe I could arrange the encounter with the harper like this:
The character asks around where he could meet a harper and someone (maybe a bartender or a thief) tells him to meet his contact at midnight behind the tavern. He goes there expecting to meet a harper but instead walks in a Night Mask ambush looking to "cut loose ends" (Since from what I read on the wiki you just dont quit the night masks). After the fighting starts a cloaked figure intervenes from the shadow to save the player (this would be the senior harper). After the night masks have been defeated the player talks with the harper who asks him to prove himself by doing a quest for him.If the players says he has to think about it the harper will be very suspicious of an ex zhent and think he is trying to set an ambush. So the harper will accept to meet in another place but of his choosing and will secretely bring other hidden harpers at the meeting. What do you guys think?

Sorry for the long text...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Erevan Illesere

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

A recent Tweet from Ed himself:


[quote]@CoraxDCLXVI

Hey Ed. Since my digging hasn't revealed much past 1375 DR, I thought I'd ask the Master Sage. Is there still an official process for joining the Harpers in the 1490s? And who, if any, are the active Senior/High Harpers on the Sword Coast in the 1490s?


@TheEdVerse

It’s never been “official” in the formal public ceremony sense. What usually happens is that the Harpers spy on likely candidates for some time, and if they think at the end of that time that someone is suitable (senior Harpers have a veto over this), a senior Harper will approach the candidate in private (usually trying to arrange circumstances where no one will observe the Harper approach or depart the meeting, so it’s often at night, wherever the candidate is sleeping, or returning from a privy) and ask them if they’re interested. If they want time to think it over, any later approach will have the same privacy but the Harper will bring reinforcements, nearby but usually hidden, to deal with any ambushes. On acceptance, the candidate is given a Harper pin and a Harper mentor, who gives them their first mission, accompanies them on it (often spied on by another Harper), and answers any questions the candidate may have/renders them aid/becomes their once-a-tenday-or-a-month contact.
#Realmslore

---

[/quote
Alright then maybe I could arrange the encounter with the harper like this:
The character asks around where he could meet a harper and someone (maybe a bartender or a thief) tells him to meet his contact at midnight behind the tavern. He goes there expecting to meet a harper but instead walks in a Night Mask ambush looking to "cut loose ends" (Since from what I read on the wiki you just dont quit the night masks). After the fighting starts a cloaked figure intervenes from the shadow to save the player (this would be the senior harper). After the night masks have been defeated the player talks with the harper who asks him to prove himself by doing a quest for him.If the players says he has to think about it the harper will be very suspicious of an ex zhent and think he is trying to set an ambush. So the harper will accept to meet in another place but of his choosing and will secretely bring other hidden harpers at the meeting. What do you guys think?

Sorry for the long text...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by TheIriaeban

quote:

---

Originally posted by Erevan Illesere

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

A recent Tweet from Ed himself:


[quote]@CoraxDCLXVI

Hey Ed. Since my digging hasn't revealed much past 1375 DR, I thought I'd ask the Master Sage. Is there still an official process for joining the Harpers in the 1490s? And who, if any, are the active Senior/High Harpers on the Sword Coast in the 1490s?


@TheEdVerse

It’s never been “official” in the formal public ceremony sense. What usually happens is that the Harpers spy on likely candidates for some time, and if they think at the end of that time that someone is suitable (senior Harpers have a veto over this), a senior Harper will approach the candidate in private (usually trying to arrange circumstances where no one will observe the Harper approach or depart the meeting, so it’s often at night, wherever the candidate is sleeping, or returning from a privy) and ask them if they’re interested. If they want time to think it over, any later approach will have the same privacy but the Harper will bring reinforcements, nearby but usually hidden, to deal with any ambushes. On acceptance, the candidate is given a Harper pin and a Harper mentor, who gives them their first mission, accompanies them on it (often spied on by another Harper), and answers any questions the candidate may have/renders them aid/becomes their once-a-tenday-or-a-month contact.
#Realmslore

---

[/quote
Alright then maybe I could arrange the encounter with the harper like this:
The character asks around where he could meet a harper and someone (maybe a bartender or a thief) tells him to meet his contact at midnight behind the tavern. He goes there expecting to meet a harper but instead walks in a Night Mask ambush looking to "cut loose ends" (Since from what I read on the wiki you just dont quit the night masks). After the fighting starts a cloaked figure intervenes from the shadow to save the player (this would be the senior harper). After the night masks have been defeated the player talks with the harper who asks him to prove himself by doing a quest for him.If the players says he has to think about it the harper will be very suspicious of an ex zhent and think he is trying to set an ambush. So the harper will accept to meet in another place but of his choosing and will secretely bring other hidden harpers at the meeting. What do you guys think?

Sorry for the long text...

---

If he really wants to "turn a new leaf", he may have to do something more drastic. I had someone that was a member of the Monks of the Long Death who wanted to leave the organization. They are famous for not letting people who leave live, so he paid a mage to permanently change his appearance and then took on a new name. That has allowed him some measure of safety (he is still paranoid a bit, though).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:

---

Originally posted by Erevan Illesere


Alright then maybe I could arrange the encounter with the harper like this:
The character asks around where he could meet a harper and someone (maybe a bartender or a thief) tells him to meet his contact at midnight behind the tavern. He goes there expecting to meet a harper but instead walks in a Night Mask ambush looking to "cut loose ends" (Since from what I read on the wiki you just dont quit the night masks). After the fighting starts a cloaked figure intervenes from the shadow to save the player (this would be the senior harper). After the night masks have been defeated the player talks with the harper who asks him to prove himself by doing a quest for him.If the players says he has to think about it the harper will be very suspicious of an ex zhent and think he is trying to set an ambush. So the harper will accept to meet in another place but of his choosing and will secretely bring other hidden harpers at the meeting. What do you guys think?

Sorry for the long text...

---

Recruits don't look for the Harpers -- the Harpers look for recruits. Anyone announcing they're looking to join is, at best, unsuitable of the discreet activities Harper missions usually require -- and more likely, is not looking to join so they can uphold the ideals of the Harpers.

A more likely recruitment would be an NPC that hires/sends the PC on certain specific tasks, and then secretly observes the PC whilst doing those tasks. And this hidden Harper NPC wouldn't just be looking for completion of the tasks, he or she would also be looking to see how the tasks were accomplished.

With a former Zhent, some of the tasks would undoubtedly include tests of morality -- does the PC make the right choices? Does he do the right thing, even when it makes the task harder? If given a task that forces him to hurt/steal from innocents, what does he do?

Remember, someone being recruited is going to be tested for suitability long before they know a Harper is even paying attention to them -- and someone like a former Zhent is going to be tested even more.

In this specific case, I think I'd allow the PC to meet a Harper just once and do some task, after which the Harper says he thinks the PC has potential, but bluntly states the Harpers are unlikely to welcome a former Zhent.

...And that's when the testing/observation starts, and continues for *years* of in-game time. The PC would likely not see that original Harper again, unless he's proved himself worthy -- without realizing it! -- multiple times over, at which point that original Harper returns to recruit him.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Erevan Illesere


Well its true that I read that getting into the Zhentarim was easy but getting out... not so much. Im just not sure if in 2e the Zhentarim allow people to leave their ranks or not if you are an agent at their service. Maybe paying them gold to let you quit?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Erevan Illesere


Ok this idea sounds actually better than the harpers saving the player from the ambush. I guess I could have made it so that the harper was actually ambushing the ambushers like Kentinal suggested but maybe it would have been too "convenient". The idea of refusing the player and then secretely testing him also sounds cool. The only thing is I have to figure out how to hand out tasks to him without it being too obvious.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Erevan Illesere

Alright then maybe I could arrange the encounter with the harper like this:
The character asks around where he could meet a harper and someone (maybe a bartender or a thief) tells him to meet his contact at midnight behind the tavern. He goes there expecting to meet a harper but instead walks in a Night Mask ambush looking to "cut loose ends" (Since from what I read on the wiki you just dont quit the night masks). After the fighting starts a cloaked figure intervenes from the shadow to save the player (this would be the senior harper). After the night masks have been defeated the player talks with the harper who asks him to prove himself by doing a quest for him.If the players says he has to think about it the harper will be very suspicious of an ex zhent and think he is trying to set an ambush. So the harper will accept to meet in another place but of his choosing and will secretely bring other hidden harpers at the meeting. What do you guys think?

Sorry for the long text...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Erevan Illesere




Oh this could really work wonders! One of the other players has a brother he got back into power since he was a noble before becoming a mercenary. Maybe I could use the noble brother to hand out tasks to the player. The noble in question was a black claw mercenary leader. From what I read on the wiki the black claws have exclusive contracts with the zhents which would make it harder for this to happen though. Still, with the insistence of his brother he did quit the zhentarim which paints a huge target on his back so maybe the harpers would want a noble to owe them a favor? Especially one with intel on zhentarim. There is also the fact of the Zhentarim taking over the criminal underworld of baldurs gate (I'm currently running siege of dragonspear and I read "Heroes of baldur's gate to figure out what was happening in the meantime in baldurs gate) so I think they would want someone powerful quitting the zhentarim to put them in a bad light so to speak.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I'm also not convinced the Zhents would care at all about someone leaving their ranks, unless that person held some rank in the group -- and even then, it depends on their position. A lot of Zhents are just muscle and cannon fodder; a higher-ranking grunt is still just a grunt.

If a person was of high enough rank in the organization to have their own agents and to do more than just follow orders, that's where it's going to get trickier to leave.

It basically comes down to how much someone can hurt the Zhents, and the cost of removing the threat.

I've an NPC I created who is a former Zhent turned Harper ally. The dude decided to stop a particular Zhent operation for his own reasons, and turned to a person known to the Zhents as a Harper. This particular Harper was the visible Harper for that area, keeping eyes on himself while other Harpers did the real work, unnoticed by those hostile eyes.

My NPC faked his own death, and in return for a new face and new identity, helped the Harpers oppose the original Zhent plot and several others. Even that, though, didn't get him an invite to the group -- he got his new identity and some seed money to start over, and they cut him loose. My guy has proven to have turned over a new leaf -- but he's not proven to be Harper material.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by TheIriaeban

If the Zhents will kill you for failing (from what I have read, they will), they will also kill you for leaving. Otherwise, there really isn't that much of an incentive to stick around. Fail, and you MAY die. Leave and you will.

I had a Zhent "grunt" leave a Darkhold patrol because he finally got fed up with the sheer evil they were doing. The patrol commander, upon learning he left, ordered a handful of men to go after him and bring back his head (to go on a pole back at the barracks to remind people that leaving/failure is NOT an option). That guy is now a werebison who hunts Zhents, with his werefox mate, in the southern Sunset Vale.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Returnip

quote:

---

Originally posted by TheIriaeban

If the Zhents will kill you for failing (from what I have read, they will), they will also kill you for leaving. Otherwise, there really isn't that much of an incentive to stick around. Fail, and you MAY die. Leave and you will.

I had a Zhent "grunt" leave a Darkhold patrol because he finally got fed up with the sheer evil they were doing. The patrol commander, upon learning he left, ordered a handful of men to go after him and bring back his head (to go on a pole back at the barracks to remind people that leaving/failure is NOT an option). That guy is now a werebison who hunts Zhents, with his werefox mate, in the southern Sunset Vale.

---

They will try to kill you. I think that if the Zhentarim captain wants to make an example of a deserter, they will send a few agents after him or her. When they don't return, they might send a few more to look for the first ones and to finish the job. After that however they might decide it's not worth the cost just to make an example for the others, so they'll probably just decapitate some homeless beggar and mutilate them until you can't tell that the head didn't belong to the deserter and impale that head instead.

However, if any of the former colleagues of the deserter should happen to bounce into him or her somewhere they might decide that they're gonna try and take their head to earn some goodwill (or maybe badwill) from their superiors. Or they decide to report it to their superior's superior. It can start all kinds of intrigue within the ranks. Maybe the fact that you can get out of it encourages others to leave? It's an interesting thought for sure.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Returnip

quote:

---

Originally posted by TheIriaeban

If the Zhents will kill you for failing (from what I have read, they will), they will also kill you for leaving. Otherwise, there really isn't that much of an incentive to stick around. Fail, and you MAY die. Leave and you will.

I had a Zhent "grunt" leave a Darkhold patrol because he finally got fed up with the sheer evil they were doing. The patrol commander, upon learning he left, ordered a handful of men to go after him and bring back his head (to go on a pole back at the barracks to remind people that leaving/failure is NOT an option). That guy is now a werebison who hunts Zhents, with his werefox mate, in the southern Sunset Vale.

---

They will try to kill you. I think that if the Zhentarim captain wants to make an example of a deserter, they will send a few agents after him or her. When they don't return, they might send a few more to look for the first ones and to finish the job. After that however they might decide it's not worth the cost just to make an example for the others, so they'll probably just decapitate some homeless beggar and mutilate them until you can't tell that the head didn't belong to the deserter and impale that head instead.

However, if any of the former colleagues of the deserter should happen to bounce into him or her somewhere they might decide that they're gonna try and take their head to earn some goodwill (or maybe badwill) from their superiors. Or they decide to report it to their superior's superior. It can start all kinds of intrigue within the ranks. Maybe the fact that you can get out of it encourages others to leave? It's an interesting thought for sure.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Erevan Illesere

So i've got a player who is a bhaalspawn half elf who is a criminal with a bounty on his head because he took refuge with some cultists to flee from the night masks (a criminal organisation he was part of). When the lords alliance captured the cultists he was taken to jail too whith a cultist he bacame friends with and romanced. At a point she tried to flee and 2 flaming fist guards tried to stop her until he intervened and attacked one. She fled casting invisibilty and he got sentenced to death, managed to escape and join the ranks of the zhentarim. Now he says he wants to turn a new leaf and join the harper organization...

So my question is "Can an outlaw join the Harpers?"

Ps: in the campaign world its common knowledge he's a bhaalspawn

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:

---

Originally posted by Erevan Illesere

So i've got a player who is a bhaalspawn half elf who is a criminal with a bounty on his head because he took refuge with some cultists to flee from the night masks (a criminal organisation he was part of). When the lords alliance captured the cultists he was taken to jail too whith a cultist he bacame friends with and romanced. At a point she tried to flee and 2 flaming fist guards tried to stop her until he intervened and attacked one. She fled casting invisibilty and he got sentenced to death, managed to escape and join the ranks of the zhentarim. Now he says he wants to turn a new leaf and join the harper organization...

So my question is "Can an outlaw join the Harpers?"

Ps: in the campaign world its common knowledge he's a bhaalspawn

---

I have two answers for you

First to your outright question.... yes, an outlaw can join the harpers. Half of them are rogues and more than likely with a shady past. The harpers are not about LAW... they are about GOOD. If following the law helps, great.... if breaking the law helps, great but don't get caught.

Second, to your unspoken question... Can this guy join the harpers? Well, first he was in the night masks, which isn't a group especially known for thinking about good at all. Second, he was in the Zhentarim next, another group whose focus is not about doing good. Now, rather than simply trying to DO GOOD he's seeking to FIND a group who is known for opposing the two groups he was previously a part of. I'll be surprised if the harpers don't just kill him to be safe.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sleyvas

Now, rather than simply trying to DO GOOD he's seeking to FIND a group who is known for opposing the two groups he was previously a part of. I'll be surprised if the harpers don't just kill him to be safe.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Returnip

quote:

---

Originally posted by sleyvas

Now, rather than simply trying to DO GOOD he's seeking to FIND a group who is known for opposing the two groups he was previously a part of. I'll be surprised if the harpers don't just kill him to be safe.

---

See, this is what I'm thinking too. That's why he needs to roleplay turning the leaf and actually do good in game, rather than ask around for harpers. The former might make them watch him and the latter will probably get him killed outright.

I'm assuming it is the player who wants his character to join the Harpers. Not the character itself. That was my assumption when I posted previously about coaching him to actually be good in game, without thinking of Harpers, and then you can present the opportunity to him and his character.

EDIT: I think you need to separate the wishes of the player for his character's progression, and the wishes of the character.

In the game world the character is most likely just fed up with being evil, and is full of regret and bad conscience because of stuff they've done. So the character turns a new leaf and starts to try and change, and oppose their old ideals.

The player, who is thinking in a meta layer, thinks the Harpers seem cool. I want my character to join them. So in that meta context you and the player can discuss how the player will have to proceed to give his character a chance to be scouted by the Harpers.

---