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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1286 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Dec 2020 : 06:14:09
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Hello everyone.
While I was scanning a list of NPCs in search of plain/Earth names, I came across this oddity.
quote:
Larajin was a cleric of two goddesses; one human, one elven, a reflection of her half-elven nature. She worshiped both Sune and Hanali Celanil and received her divine magic from each of the two goddesses. When she cast spells by Hanali, the scent of fragrant flowers surrounded Larajin; when she cast spells bestowed upon her by Sune, her hands shone with a distinct red radiance.
There is much symmetry here.
* The individual is of elven and human lineage.
* The individual worships an elven god and a (human?) god.
* Both gods worshiped concern themselves with romance and beauty.
* Both gods are Chaotic Good.
Sune and Hanali Celanil are friendly rivals, yeah? I don't see too much conflict here. In my opinion, at worst, they may compete for this priest's heart (in a platonic sense) without becoming malicious.
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Anyhow, I was wondering if this character is a sole outlier or if there are other examples of NPCs that pray to multiple gods in order to receive divine magic. Depending on the specific edition of Dungeons & Dragons favored by a DM, I imagine crafting such an option for a player's character would range from easy to obnoxiously difficult.
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Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2020 : 06:32:06
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Learned Scribe Azar,
The Triadic Knight (Champions of Valor, p.122-5) has a similar setup of praying to Tyr, Torm, and Ilmater as the knight's normal process for receiving divine magic.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1286 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2020 : 08:45:56
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quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Learned Scribe Azar,
The Triadic Knight (Champions of Valor, p.122-5) has a similar setup of praying to Tyr, Torm, and Ilmater as the knight's normal process for receiving divine magic.
Best regards,
In summary, what are the upsides and downsides? Alignment as a limiter aside, every 3e+ Cleric receives every Cleric Divine spell; also, 3e's Domain options (and their attendant powers/occasional bonus Arcane spell) can't hold a candle to 2e's Spheres and Specialty Priests when it comes to meaningful choices. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
889 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2020 : 13:08:39
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Upside: if one god gets killed, you have at least one backup spell supply.
That said, I really do not consider one vs. multiple gods as much a mechanical issue as an RP issue. It may open options of non-church organizations not availble to worshippers of a sole god.
For those who insist on crunch, maybe allow access to more than one initiate feat or channel divinity feat, depending upon your game or edition.
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2020 : 14:03:03
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From memory, I remember Medrash (one of the characters from the Brotherhood of the Griffon novels), a paladin who gained spells from both Torm and Bahamut. In fact, gave him a different set of spells than those given to him by Torm, and he could also use the Power given by one god to enhance the spells given by the other.
So, I guess that this stuff is pretty common in the Realms. As long as the gods have similar portfolios, there can be an overlap. After all, the Realms has an henotheistic/pantheistic religion... |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2020 : 14:22:57
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There was also a canon example in one of Elaine's novels of a dark elf who worshipped both Vhaeraun and Lolth, working as a double agent per se.
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Shakti_Hunzrin |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 10 Dec 2020 14:24:22 |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2020 : 05:22:41
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Learned Scribe Azar,
I feel quote:
the upsides and downsides
are that, in the case of the Triad, you get a complex, rich, and diverse set of ethics that are mostly aligned, but allow for challenging RP situations when contending with different cultures, religions, and more.
Take for example, a priest of Tyr and a priest of Ilmater in Semphar. The Caliph has issued an edict that 'Steve' is going to be executed because he was drinking alcohol. The Tyrran says, "dem the laws of duh land", while the Ilmaterian may say, "That is abusive to the notion of mercy and surely something must be done to rectify this malady of justice?!" If you were a Triadic Knight, how would you contend with that? That is damnably complicated! However, it also makes for very compelling storytelling in your campaign. At least I think so, haha. Perhaps I'm just off my rocker though. ;)
quote:
Alignment as a limiter aside, every 3e+ Cleric receives every Cleric Divine spell; also, 3e's Domain options (and their attendant powers/occasional bonus Arcane spell) can't hold a candle to 2e's Spheres and Specialty Priests when it comes to meaningful choices.
If I may partake in a brief moment of unbridled honesty: alignment is the biggest pile of c**p out there for a system of ethics. It is meant to simplify the field of ethics, and thus morality, to a useable mechanic; however, in doing so it has reduced it to, I posit, moral intuition. It frankly insults the notion that there could be more than one culture, because when consequences must be meted out in an adventure, it always goes back to the adventurers, and not the maintenance of differences by ethic. It doesn't take much digging into that ethic to realize how it relates to the randomness of morality in the Realms. While I respect ethicists such as Henry Sidgwick (and he was a leading economist at the time too), their theories appeared to fill in gaps at a time where less critical thought on the subject created the gaps in the first place. Thus, alignment as a system of ethics in the Realms just doesn't hold up to scrutiny, I think.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1286 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2020 : 12:52:09
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quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
quote:
Alignment as a limiter aside, every 3e+ Cleric receives every Cleric Divine spell; also, 3e's Domain options (and their attendant powers/occasional bonus Arcane spell) can't hold a candle to 2e's Spheres and Specialty Priests when it comes to meaningful choices.
If I may partake in a brief moment of unbridled honesty: alignment is the biggest pile of c**p out there for a system of ethics. It is meant to simplify the field of ethics, and thus morality, to a useable mechanic; however, in doing so it has reduced it to, I posit, moral intuition. It frankly insults the notion that there could be more than one culture, because when consequences must be meted out in an adventure, it always goes back to the adventurers, and not the maintenance of differences by ethic. It doesn't take much digging into that ethic to realize how it relates to the randomness of morality in the Realms. While I respect ethicists such as Henry Sidgwick (and he was a leading economist at the time too), their theories appeared to fill in gaps at a time where less critical thought on the subject created the gaps in the first place. Thus, alignment as a system of ethics in the Realms just doesn't hold up to scrutiny, I think.
Best regards,
It bothers me not, for it is a useful tool to help represent various fantasy character archetypes. Additionally, Alignment possesses a wide (if not immediately apparent) range; "good" runs the gamut from noble martyr to the vice-ridden layabout that does the right thing when his back meets the wall and "evil" can range from a woman that commits crimes out of necessity yet may repent to the most despicable sadist. Any individual with a modicum of social development recognizes that real people are more nuanced than black-caped scoundrels and alabaster-robed saints. Yes, Alignment's imperfections become glaringly apparent when you run into different cultures (e.g., in some lands, slavery is legal even though the people are essentially some flavor of Good), but I find that these potential issues are rarely troublesome enough to incentivize removal of the entire subsystem.
That said, my "limiter" comment was referring to how - for example - a 3e+ Good Cleric cannot pray for Blasphemy and a 3e+ Chaotic Cleric cannot pray for Dictum. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2020 : 07:55:30
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Learned Scribe Azar,
Ah, yes, regarding archetypes, I agree.
quote:
Yes, Alignment's imperfections become glaringly apparent when you run into different cultures (e.g., in some lands, slavery is legal even though the people are essentially some flavor of Good), but I find that these potential issues are rarely troublesome enough to incentivize removal of the entire subsystem.
See, I love using that kind of reality with differing cultures, morality, ethics, etc., to help foster the roleplay.
I mean, imagine adventuring in Thay, and the myriad of issues that could come about surrounding the notion of slavery.
quote:
That said, my "limiter" comment was referring to how - for example - a 3e+ Good Cleric cannot pray for Blasphemy and a 3e+ Chaotic Cleric cannot pray for Dictum.
Yeah, that is crazy regarding those spells. Very, very weird.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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lsls
Acolyte
34 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2020 : 12:11:07
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Salvarad (Cult of the Dragon p33), LE human priest of Shar(NE) and Cyric(CE).
Bryth Moonaxe (Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark), priest of Selune and Clangeddin. |
Edited by - lsls on 19 Dec 2020 12:20:55 |
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John Daker
Seeker
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2020 : 13:49:31
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Im reading the novel Larajin stars in right now (Heirs of Prophecy), and just last night I was wondering about these same questions.
There is one example I can think of that parallels Larajin closely: Lady Jasmine, an eladrin priestess of Sehanine Moonbow who ca. 1479 DR is also the head priestess of Selūne in Neverwinter. Jasmine believed that the two moon goddesses were aspects of a single deity; if this unusual doctrine is accepted, then perhaps the same could be true of Sune and Hanali Celanil. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2020 : 17:34:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
This is just a theory, but the weave allows anyone sufficiently skilled and knowledgable to access magic through it.
Ed has said that priestly magic uses the weave but that the gods are a kind of donater of the energy necessary to cast spells.
Given the lack of restrictions on using the weave, I suspect that a priest uses the truename of a god and certain holy words to access this magic. I'm not certain that a god gets any say in the matter. If you know the truename and holy words needed you could use any god to power your spells, that's a logical way that the servant of the fallen feat could work.
Churches would of course rightly control the secrets and be murderous to those that steal them.
Only works in a version of the realms where gods are not actively involved in the every day lives of people though.
It is canon that sometimes god refuse to grant spells, or grant different spells, or even grant alternate spells instead of requested ones. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2020 : 19:40:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Also canon are heretics, disguised priests of other faith's, and priests of dead gods who steal their energy from other gods.
And your point is?
BTW, priests of dead gods don't steal their energy. Either they don't get spells, or another deity willingly provides them. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Priestly magic from multiple gods?
