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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1832 Posts

Posted - 24 Nov 2020 :  02:54:08  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dragonborn have been the neglected race of 5e since the beginning. This optional rule actually benefits them, albeit if only a little, lol. As a mainly dragonborn player, I've never used the official dragonborn, but some fanmade fix I found in a forum, lol.

And no, their goals aren't about balance since at least, last year. Or more.

My fix to this particular issue would be to always go Vhuman, and give them an extra ASI. That would balance them a little.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 24 Nov 2020 03:04:30
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
9898 Posts

Posted - 24 Nov 2020 :  03:44:56  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Dragonborn have been the neglected race of 5e since the beginning. This optional rule actually benefits them, albeit if only a little, lol. As a mainly dragonborn player, I've never used the official dragonborn, but some fanmade fix I found in a forum, lol.

And no, their goals aren't about balance since at least, last year. Or more.

My fix to this particular issue would be to always go Vhuman, and give them an extra ASI. That would balance them a little.



Yeah, as I've spent the day thinking on this, I wouldn't allow this ruleset as written in my games. Its seems to even more make the balance between races unfair, which is odd since it proposes the exact opposite. I kind of wanted to get a feel from other people about it, because my gut feel was that it had something to do with other than game balance or even improving play. It seems to be about making a false stand and trying to put forth some image that this doesn't really accomplish within the ruleset.

I severely hope the rest of the book is different, which as I said, I did immediately skip forward to the wizard section and saw some interesting things there... so I have hope. If not, then I'll voice my opinions, because this is first and foremost a game that needs balance in my view. Its not meant for trying to spread some propaganda viewpoint in some odd mixed message way.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7357 Posts

Posted - 24 Nov 2020 :  05:23:10  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Then just give ability-poor human races some sort of +% experience bonus. Or give ability-rich non-human races some sort of -% experience malus.

The end result would still be human races lacking any special intrinsic abilities and advantages. No extra stats, skills, feats, ines of text to fill up "Racial abilities". But, compared vs non-human races, human "versatility" or "drive" (or whatever) allows humans to reach their goals faster, and to move further beyond those goals towards attaining other goals.

All else being equal, a low-level human would be reliant on the low-level elf's stealth and the low-level dwarf's robustness.
But the mid-level human might have an extra level which makes him somewhat more "versatile" and "adaptable" in any situation (instead of especially useful only in forested or underground environments, for example).
And the high-level human might be ahead of his high-level non-human peers by a couple full levels (which is even more of a significant advantage since the other racial abilities will tend to be disused in favour of other abilities).
High-level adventuring parties don't need the elf to spot secret doors or the dwarf to figure out how the stone mechanism operates, they have too many other ways to see or manipulate hidden things, they'll just smash and blast and cast their way around the map so the guy who's already doing "next level" stuff has noticeable advantages over the rest of the party. No wonder so many mixed-race adventuring parties are led by humans.

An elf can accumulate mastery over steel and magic across many centuries. Yet even with this "race" headstart he can be challenged by a human who's developed equivalent skills in just decades. And he can be completely outclassed, outpaced, overwhelmed when that human continues developing more skills and powers over yet another few alarmingly short decades.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 24 Nov 2020 06:42:08
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3314 Posts

Posted - 24 Nov 2020 :  06:22:46  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If other races get +2 to 2 stats chosen by you (in addition to their normal passives), and you want to balance humans out, then I'd give variant humans the +2 to 2 stats as well (plus feat, plus skill), and normal humans the option to distribute their 6 points as they want, with the restriction of being only able to add up to +2 to any single ability score (so, +1 to all, or +2 to one AS and +1 to 4 others, or +2 to 3 AS).

As for human bladesingers, I don't see the issue. These are generic rules, which should be able to work in any generic fantasy setting. A bladesinger fulfills the "graceful magic fighter" concept; while in FR they might be an elven thing (though no reason why, at some point, someone else couldn't come up with a similar style), in a generic setting that might not be the case.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 24 Nov 2020 06:30:12
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cpthero2
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USA
2249 Posts

Posted - 24 Nov 2020 :  07:19:55  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master Zeromaru X,

quote:
Don't blame the players for Gygax's bad writing and lack of imagination. Plenty of fiction authors have demonstrated by now that is possible to have nonhumans alongside humans, and give humans a shining spot in the story, without needing to limit the nonhumans in some way.


I don't agree that Gygax lacked imagination. I haven't read any of his novels, so I cannot comment on those. I believe it is informative to consider the root of Gygax' imagination. He came from the old school era of wargaming, i.e. Avalon Hill. It's not an excuse for what we consider bad writing or a "lack of imgination." Rather, the framework of ideas that Gygax was competing against was what he knew, and grew up with. To start to think outside of that box and develop something that was pretty staunchly opposed by the wargaming community at the time, was a pretty big deal. I mean, certainly, when you read some of his later work, after other material started coming about and growing in different ways, and he had something to compare too, I think he had less cover at that point. However, at the point of origin, I think he was pretty amazingly imaginative. :)

I am also not a Gygaxophile, haha. Just my perspective on his work.

Best regards,



Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7357 Posts

Posted - 24 Nov 2020 :  08:36:07  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The old High Gygaxian writings are full of wonderful little gems like this random encounter table and Gygax's famous "it is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules" afterword.

Say what you will about it - it is indeed a raw, rough, rudimentary, incomplete, half-broken gaming system. Not to mention that it's a bit stuffy and antiquated, full of dated language and contexts (and attitudes) from a formative era, things which have since been evolved towards more refined designs.

But one thing that cannot be said is that it shows Gygax had any "lack of imagination".
That particular failing was introduced into the game and the genre by later generations.

[/Ayrik]
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
9898 Posts

Posted - 24 Nov 2020 :  13:30:48  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Then just give ability-poor human races some sort of +% experience bonus. Or give ability-rich non-human races some sort of -% experience malus.

The end result would still be human races lacking any special intrinsic abilities and advantages. No extra stats, skills, feats, ines of text to fill up "Racial abilities". But, compared vs non-human races, human "versatility" or "drive" (or whatever) allows humans to reach their goals faster, and to move further beyond those goals towards attaining other goals.

All else being equal, a low-level human would be reliant on the low-level elf's stealth and the low-level dwarf's robustness.
But the mid-level human might have an extra level which makes him somewhat more "versatile" and "adaptable" in any situation (instead of especially useful only in forested or underground environments, for example).
And the high-level human might be ahead of his high-level non-human peers by a couple full levels (which is even more of a significant advantage since the other racial abilities will tend to be disused in favour of other abilities).
High-level adventuring parties don't need the elf to spot secret doors or the dwarf to figure out how the stone mechanism operates, they have too many other ways to see or manipulate hidden things, they'll just smash and blast and cast their way around the map so the guy who's already doing "next level" stuff has noticeable advantages over the rest of the party. No wonder so many mixed-race adventuring parties are led by humans.

An elf can accumulate mastery over steel and magic across many centuries. Yet even with this "race" headstart he can be challenged by a human who's developed equivalent skills in just decades. And he can be completely outclassed, outpaced, overwhelmed when that human continues developing more skills and powers over yet another few alarmingly short decades.



On ONE hand, Ayrik I think this is one of the simplest and most elegant solutions I've seen, and I half wish I had thought of it. In a game where a dungeon master actually does what he's supposed to and gives out X experience points at the end and people keep track of it, this might be a very very good way to handle it. Its also a good way to explain why so many of the high level NPC's are human. I'd still probably say add an extra skill choice or something to give some mechanical bonus at the start too (since a lot of campaigns barely get past 7th level). The only issue would be if you have what amounts to a somewhat lazy DM who doesn't issue XP and does the "ok everyone gets a level" trick (sadly, the last few DM's I've had fall into this category, and I wonder if its not becoming a trend as the gaming community ages), but in that case if the % were like 25% then when everyone else in the party reaches 4th level I guess that the player could probably talk said DM into letting them be 5th lvl "because their race has that ability".

It might be better though if this % goes down as the player levels so as to make this eventually go away. For instance, the first few levels, its at as high as 50%. By say 5th level it drops to 25%. At 10th level it goes away. This would allow for there to be lots of lower level humans who quickly and easily achieve 2nd or 3rd level.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 24 Nov 2020 14:05:20
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1832 Posts

Posted - 24 Nov 2020 :  14:15:55  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
One can argue that those things you all mentioned are not entirely his creations. I don't want to delve into that quagmire, but the Anderson vs Gygax debate do exist, after all.

Anyways, Gygax was unable (and perhaps even unwilling) to see that, while indeed we are humans, and cannot think in an nonhuman manner, we can extrapolate from our own "humanity" and imagine how would be to live among nonhumans in ways beyond the outdated "humanity is too perfect and must lead" philosophy. As I already said, there are plenty of fiction works out there that have converted that stuff into a genre.

But I digress.

I don't feel that giving extra xp would be a good solution. For one, it feels like punishing the players for using nonhumans. And second, it's not useable with the milestones method of leveling up (what sleyvas call "lazy DMing"), that is the default method of leveling up in the published adventures.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 24 Nov 2020 14:21:38
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
9898 Posts

Posted - 24 Nov 2020 :  14:58:43  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
BTW, partly an aside, but I never had played a dragonborn or even made a dragonborn NPC or even had a dragonborn in a party with me. I've only read about them in novels and game material. So until this conversation I had not realized what Zeromarux was talking about with that race being so poorly written up. I'm curious as to what people think would be the fix for that race to make it more balanced to the other races. It made me go back to the somewhat original source for the concept of dragonborn (races of the dragon, and I understand some people might say the concept goes back to 1e with draconians). In that edition, they didn't get both darkvision AND a breath weapon... but they could use their breath weapon over and over (once every 1d4 rounds). So, they had a choice, either breath weapon or extreme senses or wings. In this 5e edition they get their breath weapon once per short rest. Quite frankly, that blows. I actually think they should get both sets of abilities related to breath and extreme senses. Thus, keep the breath weapon and keep it limited (they aren't true dragons after all), but give them senses like a dragons. I'm thinking darkvision and keen hearing and smell (i.e. advantage on perception checks related to hearing and smell) make sense though as extra add ons to the race that don't break the bank. Also, perhaps some kind of advantage on saving throws against fear type effects. This is a minor bonus as well, but it mirrors the general "feel" I have for what a dragonborn is like.

As much as I'd like to say "give them some armor bonus for their scales as well", I think it starts to creep on overpowering them.... unless it were done as something wherein this armor bonus ONLY applies if they are wearing no armor. For instance, having a base armor class of 12 instead of 10 when unarmored. This actually would make them really nice choices for wizards as well. Its also not so much of a bonus that the mage armor spell or the wearing of magical armor with a simple +1 bonus doesn't become better than this. It could be good if it were specified to work with the unarmored defense of the monk or barbarian (such that they become 12 + dex + {con for barb} or {wis for monk}), and could really encourage dragonborn of these types.

I'd be hesitant to allow them to have wings as a 1st level character, though having a feat or a higher level ability that allows them to "unlock" their draconic ties or somesuch could make sense... and I bet if I dig there's probably something like that already made. If someone wants a flying character at first level, there's other options, like aarakocra, where this is very intrinsic to their character, moreso than the dragonborn.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 24 Nov 2020 15:38:40
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1832 Posts

Posted - 24 Nov 2020 :  15:34:59  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

BTW, partly an aside, but I never had played a dragonborn or even made a dragonborn NPC or even had a dragonborn in a party with me. I've only read about them in novels and game material. So until this conversation I had not realized what Zeromarux was talking about with that race being so poorly written up. I'm curious as to what people think would be the fix for that race to make it more balanced to the other races.



You should search "homebrew dragonborn" or "revised dragonborn" in Google to see how many different versions you can get. I've got at least ten different versions in my D&D homebrew stuff folder, and I've ignored those "fixes" that don't appeal to my tastes (I like my 4e looking dragonborn, not those derived from chromatic/metallic subraces*).

I guess WotC got the message and they are just ignoring it. Because so many fans fixing something in the game for the top 5 most used race should mean something

The problem most people have with them is that they are "one trick ponies". And their trick sucks. They have just one ability (draconic heritage) that gives them energy resistance and a poor scaling breath weapon that cost an action. An action that you can use doing more useful stuff with your class stuff. They get nothing more, not even a skill profiency. As if energy resistance were that overpowered.

To add insult to injury, they don't sinergize with the draconic lineage sorcerer.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


but they could use their breath weapon over and over (once every 1d4 rounds)... In this 5e edition they get their breath weapon once per short rest. Quite frankly, that blows.


My fix to this (that shamelessly stole from a guy in a forum) was to better scale the damage (using cantrips as a model), and changed the usage from "short rest" to "recharge 5-6" (see Monster Manual, p.11), same as half-dragons.

And I gave them darkvision, as well.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


As much as I'd like to say "give them some armor bonus for their scales as well", I think it starts to creep on overpowering them....


Lizardfolk do have that from the beginning, tho. Why is not overpowered for them?

Anyways, dragonborn have a feat that gives them this in Xanathar's.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


I'd be hesitant to allow them to have wings as a 1st level character, though having a feat or a higher level ability that allows them to "unlock" their draconic ties or somesuch could make sense... and I bet if I dig there's probably something like that already made.


They have a feat in an UA that gives them wings. I agree with you, this is something that they should unlock. But this was part of their lore in 4e, lol




*Though, seeing the art from Tasha's, I guess now all dragonborn will have their look based in their heritage. The dragonborn there look like half-dragons.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 24 Nov 2020 15:49:27
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cpthero2
Great Reader

USA
2249 Posts

Posted - 24 Nov 2020 :  18:06:05  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader Ayrik,

quote:
...and Gygax's famous "it is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules" afterword.


Agreed! This was one of his most important statements to the gaming community in my opinion.

quote:
Say what you will about it - it is indeed a raw, rough, rudimentary, incomplete, half-broken gaming system. Not to mention that it's a bit stuffy and antiquated, full of dated language and contexts (and attitudes) from a formative era, things which have since been evolved towards more refined designs.


Agreed as to the raw, rough, rudimentary, incomplete, half-broken gaming system, from our well informed perspective now, I argue. Imagine what it must have been like, growing up playing Gettysburg from Avalon Hill in 1958 (I think that was the year it was listed he first played it though it was released in 1953). He played it so much his wife initially thought he was cheating on her, lol. To be so ingrained in that wargaming community, but then to come out with something like D&D after releasing Cavaliers and Roundheads was a big deal. You're putting your reputation out there that could lead to that sink or swim moment. So, that was pretty dang imaginative and ballsy I think.

quote:
But one thing that cannot be said is that it shows Gygax had any "lack of imagination". That particular failing was introduced into the game and the genre by later generations.


Agreed.

Best regards,



Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
9898 Posts

Posted - 25 Nov 2020 :  02:03:31  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

BTW, partly an aside, but I never had played a dragonborn or even made a dragonborn NPC or even had a dragonborn in a party with me. I've only read about them in novels and game material. So until this conversation I had not realized what Zeromarux was talking about with that race being so poorly written up. I'm curious as to what people think would be the fix for that race to make it more balanced to the other races.



You should search "homebrew dragonborn" or "revised dragonborn" in Google to see how many different versions you can get. I've got at least ten different versions in my D&D homebrew stuff folder, and I've ignored those "fixes" that don't appeal to my tastes (I like my 4e looking dragonborn, not those derived from chromatic/metallic subraces*).

I guess WotC got the message and they are just ignoring it. Because so many fans fixing something in the game for the top 5 most used race should mean something

The problem most people have with them is that they are "one trick ponies". And their trick sucks. They have just one ability (draconic heritage) that gives them energy resistance and a poor scaling breath weapon that cost an action. An action that you can use doing more useful stuff with your class stuff. They get nothing more, not even a skill profiency. As if energy resistance were that overpowered.

To add insult to injury, they don't sinergize with the draconic lineage sorcerer.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


but they could use their breath weapon over and over (once every 1d4 rounds)... In this 5e edition they get their breath weapon once per short rest. Quite frankly, that blows.


My fix to this (that shamelessly stole from a guy in a forum) was to better scale the damage (using cantrips as a model), and changed the usage from "short rest" to "recharge 5-6" (see Monster Manual, p.11), same as half-dragons.

And I gave them darkvision, as well.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


As much as I'd like to say "give them some armor bonus for their scales as well", I think it starts to creep on overpowering them....


Lizardfolk do have that from the beginning, tho. Why is not overpowered for them?

Anyways, dragonborn have a feat that gives them this in Xanathar's.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


I'd be hesitant to allow them to have wings as a 1st level character, though having a feat or a higher level ability that allows them to "unlock" their draconic ties or somesuch could make sense... and I bet if I dig there's probably something like that already made.


They have a feat in an UA that gives them wings. I agree with you, this is something that they should unlock. But this was part of their lore in 4e, lol




*Though, seeing the art from Tasha's, I guess now all dragonborn will have their look based in their heritage. The dragonborn there look like half-dragons.



Well, you made me take a look at the lizardfolk. It sounds like the exact same thing I was saying to add except that they go a full 13 instead of 12 (what I meant about overpowering would be if you said to add a basic flat armor bonus no matter what they were wearing, which is how people were doing it back in 3e). I don't see a problem with either 12 or 13, though I'd probably choose 12 just to allow for more abilities for the dragonborn. In the end, it only really matters if the person isn't going to wear armor at all (so possibly wizard, monk, or barbarian... or a class that only gets light armor).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Risven
Acolyte

USA
6 Posts

Posted - 25 Nov 2020 :  02:56:23  Show Profile Send Risven a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Risven

I like the optional rules for races introduced in Tasha's, and I can't see any reason they would affect the 'balance' of races in the Realms. Races aren't making decisions based on their bonuses, or comparing those bonuses to other races. Players do that, and 5E has been pretty clear that PCs are exceptional people anyway.



Then quite frankly you aren't reading what I wrote above where I laid out how this changes things.



I probably should have quoted (apologies!), but I wasn't specifically talking about your points - I meant to address the expansion of the question, where folks were talking about the balance of races in a game world and Gygax's class/level limits.

quote:

For those that want to turn this into something about racism, my point is that the rules can be balanced and not enforcing racism at the same time. You don't have to ruin balance in order to achieve this goal. Nor am I convinced that these changes truly promote the "end of racism".



I agree, but this might be the best that 5E can do for now. I'm not sure what else they could do - anything more and they might have to rework a lot of the rules...which they might be saving for 6E, but that could be a ways off.

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
9898 Posts

Posted - 25 Nov 2020 :  14:17:38  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Risven

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Risven

I like the optional rules for races introduced in Tasha's, and I can't see any reason they would affect the 'balance' of races in the Realms. Races aren't making decisions based on their bonuses, or comparing those bonuses to other races. Players do that, and 5E has been pretty clear that PCs are exceptional people anyway.



Then quite frankly you aren't reading what I wrote above where I laid out how this changes things.



I probably should have quoted (apologies!), but I wasn't specifically talking about your points - I meant to address the expansion of the question, where folks were talking about the balance of races in a game world and Gygax's class/level limits.

quote:

For those that want to turn this into something about racism, my point is that the rules can be balanced and not enforcing racism at the same time. You don't have to ruin balance in order to achieve this goal. Nor am I convinced that these changes truly promote the "end of racism".



I agree, but this might be the best that 5E can do for now. I'm not sure what else they could do - anything more and they might have to rework a lot of the rules...which they might be saving for 6E, but that could be a ways off.





Let me be clear here that my response here is aimed at the designers, because I know they read things in various forums and articles. The answer then is not to create a rules issue for some false gesture. Otherwise they stand the chance of making their base believe that its not about the game and that they feel like the company is more concerned with some faux political shenanigans rather than the game that we're buying their product to play. Honestly, based on some of the responses I've seen to this and other things, this is the feeling I get. If they want to create valid rules that address things that they may feel passionate about put in the work (i.e.... don't slap some BS together and throw it out like its a fix that even non-professionals can shoot holes through in minutes, all it ends up doing is dividing their base until they eventually head off to something else).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Diffan
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USA
4054 Posts

Posted - 25 Nov 2020 :  22:01:20  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It was my impression that only Dwarves get the +2/+2 stat bonus, but you're still a "dwarf"?

I think the added affect of a Feat from vHuman, extra Skill proficiency (which I guess could be swapped out for a Tool one?) and +1/+1 to any two stats is still pretty good. Though, I'll admit that I really don't want to allow or incorporate this particular stat rule in my games. So I might just say you can change out Proficiencies with tools/skills and some other stuff but Innate abilities (Darkvision, poison resistance) are just apart of "who" you are that can't be changed.

As for other elements of the Book, there seems to be a LOT of repeats. I understand this is specifically designed for Adventure League rules (the whole dumb rule of PHB +1) but that means they can re-print a lot of material all over again and at least get some appreciation from the fan-base. For example, I already have Mythic Odysseys of Theros, Guildmasters' Guide to Ravnica, Sword Coast Adventure Guide, AND the Eberron books. SO I don't really need reprints of Oath of Glory Paladins, Spore Druids, Order domain clerics, Bladesingers (though the subtle change to the archetype based on Proficiency bonus is nice), or Artificers. Not to mention all the Cantrip spells from SCAG. Its just needless filler IMO.

I do like the feats. I don't like the overall nerf to the Rune Knight (everything was fine except the extra damage for all attacks, that should've been reduced to 1/turn). I'll never incorporate the removal of Racial Requirements for Bladesingers or Battleragers (even in my 4E Games, Battlerager Fighters are Dwarves and Bladesingers are elves/eladrin/half-elves. I DO allow Shadar-kai Bladesingers as I see them as Shadow-fey but not Drow).

Other things I do like: some of the Fighting Styles are pretty cool, though I've been using them since they've became available in Unearthend Arcana, like Interception (reaction, negate 1d10 + prof. bonus from incoming attack within 5-ft. of an ally) which I've been using with my Air Genasi Fighter (Warlord). Also, Blessed Warrior (paladins get 2 cleric cantrips that use Charisma for their casting stat). I think a Paladin with this style gets Sacred Flame and Radiant Hands, makes it more like your 4E Paladin. Most of the other sub-classes are "meh" for me, just not my cup of tea.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore

1750 Posts

Posted - 26 Nov 2020 :  00:03:54  Show Profile Send The Arcanamach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
See I'm thinking the Custom Lineage is meant to be the 'new' human. But regardless, I completely agree they should have done something for humans to make them more attractive. To be honest, though, even before Tahsa's I've seen very few humans played even with the variant feat making them a strong contender for play.

I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one.
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1832 Posts

Posted - 26 Nov 2020 :  00:50:08  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Weird. If you don't see humans in play, perhaps something changed in your group, because humans are the most used race in 5e, and by wide margin compared to the others.

https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/dd-survey-results-summary

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 26 Nov 2020 00:52:12
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore

1750 Posts

Posted - 26 Nov 2020 :  22:44:39  Show Profile Send The Arcanamach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah I've seen that before. I think that stat comes mostly from organized play. In the last 3-4 groups I've played in (over the past 4 years) I've seen very few humans played. I don't know if that corresponds to most tables or not, but it's been my experience.

I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one.
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cpthero2
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USA
2249 Posts

Posted - 28 Nov 2020 :  05:28:20  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master Arcanamach,

quote:
But regardless, I completely agree they should have done something for humans to make them more attractive.


Out of curiosity, why do you think they made it to where human's are not that attractive to play?

Best regards,



Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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sleyvas
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USA
9898 Posts

Posted - 28 Nov 2020 :  14:44:00  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Master Arcanamach,

quote:
But regardless, I completely agree they should have done something for humans to make them more attractive.


Out of curiosity, why do you think they made it to where human's are not that attractive to play?

Best regards,



read the first entry into all this.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Diffan
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USA
4054 Posts

Posted - 28 Nov 2020 :  14:55:37  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Dragonborn have been the neglected race of 5e since the beginning. This optional rule actually benefits them, albeit if only a little, lol. As a mainly dragonborn player, I've never used the official dragonborn, but some fanmade fix I found in a forum, lol.

And no, their goals aren't about balance since at least, last year. Or more.

My fix to this particular issue would be to always go Vhuman, and give them an extra ASI. That would balance them a little.



Aside from Breath Weapon being pretty boring, what fixes do they need? At least, compared to what they were in 4th Edition? Honestly I'd love to see some sort of Breath Marking ability like we got in 4E! The ability to Mark many enemies in an area with that would be awesome.

As for the vHuman, two +1s, an extra Skill proficiency, and a free Feat is still pretty decent. When you're talking about adding a new ASI to that, do you mean an additional +2 / two +1s? Or simply just another +1?

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1832 Posts

Posted - 28 Nov 2020 :  23:44:26  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan


Aside from Breath Weapon being pretty boring, what fixes do they need? At least, compared to what they were in 4th Edition?



They only have a pretty weak breath weapon and a situational damage resistance, that I feel it is the equivalent to 4e's draconic heritage (that gave them +CON mod to healing surge value).

And they have nothing more. They lack any skill proficiencies, that other races have in 5e. In 4e, dragonborn had a +2 bonus to history and intimidation, so I could give them a proficiency in history only, if giving it too intimidation feels to powerful, as it's combat applicable.

They also lack an ability to replace "dragonborn fury" (+2 to attack rolls when bloodied). 5e orcs have their critical hit stuffs, so dragonborn can have something similar.

quote:
Originally posted by Diffan


As for the vHuman, two +1s, an extra Skill proficiency, and a free Feat is still pretty decent. When you're talking about adding a new ASI to that, do you mean an additional +2 / two +1s? Or simply just another +1?



Just another +1.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 29 Nov 2020 06:00:49
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Azar
Learned Scribe

184 Posts

Posted - 29 Nov 2020 :  00:58:11  Show Profile Send Azar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The "racist" argument is beyond me; I and the people I play with can separate reality from fiction (and vice versa) just fine. Anyone who believes that the inclusion of standard-issue drow or orcs is automatically indicative of real-world prejudice needs to thoroughly examine their assumption.

Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34473 Posts

Posted - 29 Nov 2020 :  03:44:11  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Let's not have that argument again, please.

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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1832 Posts

Posted - 29 Nov 2020 :  05:59:51  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm still wondering why humans need a mechanical edge to be relevant lorewise... I mean, really, there is a need to repeat that dragonborn are among the top 5 most played race, and they are mechanically the weakest race in D&D 5e so far?

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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