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Seethyr
Senior Scribe

USA
927 Posts

Posted - 19 Nov 2020 :  22:14:01  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
The morkoth of the 5e MM is such a departure from what they are like in FR in Seros that I almost see them as a completely different species with just the same name. Has anyone else found a way to allow both depictions to coexist?

Perhaps it could be a product of confusion, like how the tabaxi were named incorrectly?

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Edited by - Seethyr on 19 Nov 2020 22:15:06

cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1812 Posts

Posted - 19 Nov 2020 :  23:37:24  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Senior Scribe Seethyr,

Wow, I don't know what the justification for that different of an aberration is. This may just be another inconsistency issue I hate to say. They are remarkably different.

Best regards,





Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Seethyr
Senior Scribe

USA
927 Posts

Posted - 20 Nov 2020 :  02:01:12  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Senior Scribe Seethyr,

Wow, I don't know what the justification for that different of an aberration is. This may just be another inconsistency issue I hate to say. They are remarkably different.

Best regards,





To be perfectly fair, I think the morkoth being adapted as a race to Seros was the original wonky move (as much as I dislike the MM lore). I wish they had used korpu or something else instead. Morkoth have always been more of a monster than a race to me.

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PattPlays
Learned Scribe

210 Posts

Posted - 20 Nov 2020 :  02:31:48  Show Profile  Visit PattPlays's Homepage Send PattPlays a Private Message  Reply with Quote
By Monster Manual you mean Volo's Guide to Monsters, yes? That book is presented as in-canon despite the many bastardisations of creatures such as the Devourer. Perhaps it's just Volo being an exaggerating oaf.

:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, RIP Pluto: :IRC lives:


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Seethyr
Senior Scribe

USA
927 Posts

Posted - 20 Nov 2020 :  02:39:07  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays

By Monster Manual you mean Volo's Guide to Monsters, yes? That book is presented as in-canon despite the many bastardisations of creatures such as the Devourer. Perhaps it's just Volo being an exaggerating oaf.



Ah, yes, it was Volo's. I really hope it is his idiocy to blame.

Follow the Maztica (Aztec/Maya) and Anchorome (Indigenous North America) Campaigns on DMsGuild!

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Edited by - Seethyr on 20 Nov 2020 02:39:33
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1812 Posts

Posted - 20 Nov 2020 :  04:28:52  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Senior Scribe Seethyr,

I'm pretty certain Volo was just imbibing all too correctly in the Dreammist...

Best regards,




Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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PattPlays
Learned Scribe

210 Posts

Posted - 20 Nov 2020 :  04:37:20  Show Profile  Visit PattPlays's Homepage Send PattPlays a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Senior Scribe Seethyr,

I'm pretty certain Volo was just imbibing all too correctly in the Dreammist...

Best regards,






Give the guy a break, he's ... he's how old?
Did he spend a century in stasis or three centuries?
I still don't know what's up with that town in Calimshan with the exact same name..

:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, RIP Pluto: :IRC lives:


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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34225 Posts

Posted - 20 Nov 2020 :  04:56:55  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays


I still don't know what's up with that town in Calimshan with the exact same name..



quote:
Dec 5, 2019


@nessus88

I hope you are healing well and feeling better. Thank you for answering questions. I happen to have a question about Volo. I noticed there is a city in Calimshan called 'Volothamp' and I was wondering if he is named after the city or if he gave himself a pen name?


@TheEdVerse

Oooh! You've stumbled on a hidden secret of the Realms! Volo is indeed named after the city, as he was conceived there, and his mother had a secret sideline business in having babies for nobility and royalty (and keeping very quiet about it, so they could pass off her babes as legitimate fullblood heirs), and wanted to keep track of where she 'made' her own child. (Eventually, someone decided to guarantee the silence of Volo's parents by murdering them. Via deft hired killers who offed them separately in "accidents.")


@Mr_Espinos

For a moment I thought you were talking about the town of Volo located just south of Lake Geneva, Wisconsin. I was super excited because I had wondered if he was named for the town, it being located so close to the birthplace of #DnD


@StevenESchend

Partly inspired from Volo Bog in the sense. I always liked Jeff Grubb’s conception of Volo’s travelogues in that he named places after himself if he didn’t bother to learn the local name


@Mr_Espinos

So, standard colonial white guy?


@TheEdVerse

Heh. Volo's a SATIRE of the "Great White Explorer" of the British Empire, and has been from the start. We needed an 'idiot narrator.' Jeff Grubb named him; I already had the character (Elminster kept turning him into water-spouting frog fountains and the like.)
#Realmslore


@Mr_Espinos

He feels appropriately cartoonish.


@nessus88

Thank you so much for answering. This is great to know. Can I ask if Volo knows that his parents were murdered and for what reason?


@TheEdVerse

No. He SUSPECTS, but only recently, because they died at different times and the fatal accidents were so well-crafted. You see, it's only recently that he learned of his mother's sideline business (which was FAR more profitable than the everyday work his parents did).
#Realmslore


@RandomQueriant

How recently?

Are we talking soon enough that the killers, and the people who sent them, are likely still alive?

Or 5e "recently", and the killers children, and possibly their grandchildren, have probably died of old age?


@TheEdVerse

The latter. As extant Realmslore records, Volo was one of those who survived the Spellplague and Sundering via magical means.
#Realmslore

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PattPlays
Learned Scribe

210 Posts

Posted - 20 Nov 2020 :  05:41:46  Show Profile  Visit PattPlays's Homepage Send PattPlays a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays


I still don't know what's up with that town in Calimshan with the exact same name..



quote:
Dec 5, 2019


@nessus88

I hope you are healing well and feeling better. Thank you for answering questions. I happen to have a question about Volo. I noticed there is a city in Calimshan called 'Volothamp' and I was wondering if he is named after the city or if he gave himself a pen name?


@TheEdVerse

Oooh! You've stumbled on a hidden secret of the Realms! Volo is indeed named after the city, as he was conceived there, and his mother had a secret sideline business in having babies for nobility and royalty (and keeping very quiet about it, so they could pass off her babes as legitimate fullblood heirs), and wanted to keep track of where she 'made' her own child. (Eventually, someone decided to guarantee the silence of Volo's parents by murdering them. Via deft hired killers who offed them separately in "accidents.")


@Mr_Espinos

For a moment I thought you were talking about the town of Volo located just south of Lake Geneva, Wisconsin. I was super excited because I had wondered if he was named for the town, it being located so close to the birthplace of #DnD


@StevenESchend

Partly inspired from Volo Bog in the sense. I always liked Jeff Grubb’s conception of Volo’s travelogues in that he named places after himself if he didn’t bother to learn the local name


@Mr_Espinos

So, standard colonial white guy?


@TheEdVerse

Heh. Volo's a SATIRE of the "Great White Explorer" of the British Empire, and has been from the start. We needed an 'idiot narrator.' Jeff Grubb named him; I already had the character (Elminster kept turning him into water-spouting frog fountains and the like.)
#Realmslore


@Mr_Espinos

He feels appropriately cartoonish.


@nessus88

Thank you so much for answering. This is great to know. Can I ask if Volo knows that his parents were murdered and for what reason?


@TheEdVerse

No. He SUSPECTS, but only recently, because they died at different times and the fatal accidents were so well-crafted. You see, it's only recently that he learned of his mother's sideline business (which was FAR more profitable than the everyday work his parents did).
#Realmslore


@RandomQueriant

How recently?

Are we talking soon enough that the killers, and the people who sent them, are likely still alive?

Or 5e "recently", and the killers children, and possibly their grandchildren, have probably died of old age?


@TheEdVerse

The latter. As extant Realmslore records, Volo was one of those who survived the Spellplague and Sundering via magical means.
#Realmslore




And this is why I love the realms. A player in my game chooses to serve Ghaunadaur out of MoToFoes, I research every aspect of the lore related, I get sucked into the Ilythiir elves, I follow their flight southward, I research the Calimshan area, I find the town of Volothamp, I comment about it, I get this lore dump.
Ya just can't google search for this stuff. Praise be to candlekeep, praise be to Wooly and the gang.


By the way, I know not of the lore of classic Morkoths in Toril but I do know their 2eAD&D entry in the core monster manual (whichever one it was that they were published in) and I think the 5e interpretation of them is actually pretty fascinating. The old 2eAD&D entry made them specifically a trap monster- almost like an aquatic antlion with psychic powers. You find a shaft deep under the water or in a wet cave, you follow it down, get sucked in by the psychic call, and you get devoured by the squiddy surprise at the end of the tunnel.
The 5e morkoth was extremely forgettable, but Matthew Mercer made it SHINE by using it as a template for a terrifying astral traveler in his second campaign. Actually reviewing the Morkoth's entry.. he pretty much took it straight from the book and added elemental traits from the land the morkoth used as it's lair. I'm surprised it took me and everyone so long to figure out what was going on.. re-reading this entry makes it so obvious. That magical reflection ability is truly something!

My point on the 5e changes here is that the role the Morkoth filled in 2eAD&D by my recollection (trick monster) doesn't work in the 5e method of development, so they made it a real boss monster that isn't confined to a tight narrow tunnel under a wet cave somewhere. I'm not sure if it was always an aberration, but there was no way they were going to make this creature subtle.

What were they like in Seros? Is the astral lineage the core blasphemy here or is there just no relation? If it's the latter, then welcome aboard; the Devourer got morphed from an elegant Negative Energy creature with intelligence and a complex relationship to the souls around them and made them a dumb but nuclear demonic horror.

....blame the spellplague?

:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, RIP Pluto: :IRC lives:


https://thisisstorytelling.wordpress.com

T_P_T

Edited by - PattPlays on 20 Nov 2020 05:42:18
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1812 Posts

Posted - 20 Nov 2020 :  06:02:58  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Learned Scribe PattPlays,

quote:
....blame the spellplague?


Always blame the Spellplague. ;) hahaha

Wave that 3e and prior lore flag, good sir! :)

Best regards,




P.S. That was a hilarious transcript.

Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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PattPlays
Learned Scribe

210 Posts

Posted - 20 Nov 2020 :  06:11:59  Show Profile  Visit PattPlays's Homepage Send PattPlays a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Learned Scribe PattPlays,

quote:
....blame the spellplague?


Always blame the Spellplague. ;) hahaha

Wave that 3e and prior lore flag, good sir! :)

Best regards,




P.S. That was a hilarious transcript.

3.5 flag? You all have the option to ignore it! The 5e people (...are there any on the forum other than me with 2 stars?) are the ones who have to deal with it! We even have to deal with the strangeness of the clean-up detail Ao did.

:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, RIP Pluto: :IRC lives:


https://thisisstorytelling.wordpress.com

T_P_T

Edited by - PattPlays on 20 Nov 2020 06:12:55
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1812 Posts

Posted - 20 Nov 2020 :  07:29:05  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Learned Scribe PattPlays,

experimento cognoscent quae temporis et dierum iter extremum aquæductus mecum

I've just cast Time Conduit so that you can come back and have a taste of the golden era Learned Scribe PattPlays!

Crack those books, and don't look back (errr...forward). ;)

Best regards,







Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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PattPlays
Learned Scribe

210 Posts

Posted - 20 Nov 2020 :  15:34:30  Show Profile  Visit PattPlays's Homepage Send PattPlays a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Okay but which tho. There are a billion monster tomes and lore supplements. I've read the 2ead&d monster manuals for the core rulesets. Are you talking 2ead&d realms or are you talking 3e or 1e? Drop me a book name and I'll get looking. The 2e monster manuals have atrocious formats for quick references/lookups.
"Come back and taste" is a little innacurate. I referenced 2e and 5e content in that post...

:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, RIP Pluto: :IRC lives:


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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1812 Posts

Posted - 20 Nov 2020 :  18:16:29  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Learned Scribe PattPlays,

Good morning good sir!

I meant the 3rd edition Monster Manual II, on page 152. I know it's been discussed herein, but I feel that one is the best.

As to the golden era remark, that was me being a bit jocular about my time of preference for the Realms when lore I feel was its apex. :)

Best regards,





Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Seethyr
Senior Scribe

USA
927 Posts

Posted - 20 Nov 2020 :  20:10:12  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The thing about the morkoth is they were truly a race in Seros. They had racial desires and hundreds gathered in communities. There isn’t even an inkling of such a possibility in Volos. I am not saying I don’t like their new description, it just stomps all over lore which is aggravating.

IMHO the only way to fix it is to say two separate creatures with the only connection being they look alike (ergo the confusion).

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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1812 Posts

Posted - 20 Nov 2020 :  23:19:55  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Senior Scribe Seethyr,

quote:
The thing about the morkoth is they were truly a race in Seros. They had racial desires and hundreds gathered in communities. There isn’t even an inkling of such a possibility in Volos. I am not saying I don’t like their new description, it just stomps all over lore which is aggravating.


I get that. That is the main problem with 4e/5e: they just nerfed all of the lore so they could lower costs and pump out adventures. The pain is real.

Best regards,




Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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PattPlays
Learned Scribe

210 Posts

Posted - 21 Nov 2020 :  03:38:35  Show Profile  Visit PattPlays's Homepage Send PattPlays a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Senior Scribe Seethyr,

quote:
The thing about the morkoth is they were truly a race in Seros. They had racial desires and hundreds gathered in communities. There isn’t even an inkling of such a possibility in Volos. I am not saying I don’t like their new description, it just stomps all over lore which is aggravating.


I get that. That is the main problem with 4e/5e: they just nerfed all of the lore so they could lower costs and pump out adventures. The pain is real.

Best regards,





The old lore is still there, everyone. Also, I think there is a bit of disillusion here. With all due respect, if the 3rd edition entry describes a colorful culture and race (3e was the generation of "everything is a playable template") and the 2e Morkoth was basically a psychic crustacean trick monster, and the 5e Morkoth is a legendary astral traveler who imprisons the minds of all who come near it, then have we not established a precedent for each edition radically transforming this aberrant beaked creature into a new role in the game-space? They are all viable, all can be used in any of your games, and the coming of a later version never reduced any aspect of the older entries.

I'm going to check that book and then continue this post ...


What is the issue with 5e's interpretation of this 3.0 entry? There is no lore in this core monster manual about any Seros culture, that must be in a realmslore book. This 3.0 entry seems to be perfectly between the 2e hypnotic aquatic tunnel horror and the powerful solitary lairing hoarder of 5e. The emphasis on the lair of the morkoth in both 2e and 3e is a guarantee that the 5e version would be Legendary, as to obtain Lair actions and regional effects that would -add- to their status as terrifying lair monsters.

If there's no lore about Seros (or any culture at all for that matter) in the core 3e entry then why would you expect any in the 5e entry? The 5e entry adds without subtracting any aspect of them. They even have the same spell reflection entry. It's clear that referencing some area of Toril in a core d&d monster manual has never been the way of things for monster book expansions. Remind me again why the 5e version of the morkoth is in any way more offensive than the 3e or the 2e entry for that matter?

:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, RIP Pluto: :IRC lives:


https://thisisstorytelling.wordpress.com

T_P_T

Edited by - PattPlays on 21 Nov 2020 03:39:01
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1812 Posts

Posted - 21 Nov 2020 :  09:09:40  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Learned Scribe PattPlays,

I hope this missive finds you well, good sir! I appreciate the opportunity to reply to your most recent post.

quote:
The old lore is still there, everyone.


Agreed. Speaking only for myself here, I feel that the Realms were at their best at a point between 2nd and 3rd edition, not only by product material quality, but the sheer volume of material being released to sate the appetite of the masses. Though I know the old lore "is still there", my desire is to reinvigorate conversation and interest in those days and the culture of the Realms as players/DM's because of the breadth and depth of lore.

quote:
Also, I think there is a bit of disillusion here. With all due respect, if the 3rd edition entry describes a colorful culture and race (3e was the generation of "everything is a playable template")


I am going to make assumptions here as is often done to establish a baseline for framing intellectual arguments.

  • The Forgotten Realms was the dominant and implicitly understood "official" campaign from 2nd edition onward, by practicality
  • I do believe that the approach of "everything is a playable template" went too far. I think that WotC was on the right track, but at the same time, I think they went too far as frankly, players are often not overly interested in understanding different cultures to that degree, but rather, wish to have the mechanical advantages alone
  • Rarely does any manual ever describe a "colorful culture and race", without additional accessories, magazine articles, etc. I believe it was best done during older times as the setting supported the development of creatures, etc. when that occurred.


quote:
...and the 2e Morkoth was basically a psychic crustacean trick monster,...


I am going to place the societal/culture elements of entries of both 2nd and 3rd edition Morkoth's herein to make available for scrutiny similarities and differences:

2nd Edition Morkoth

quote:
Habitat Soaety: Morkoths arc normally solitary creatures. They sometimes make alliances with kraken, offering their help in exchange for an occasional slave. If approached by evil sea humanoids for assistance morkoths may strike a bargain bur often betray their "allies" at the most opportune moment. I Morkoths rarely leave their tunnels. The tunnels are originally natural, but are slowly carved over the coume of centuries by the morkoths so that the central chamber grows larger. Morkoth sometimes build their tunnels near hot air vents, so the water in morkoth lairs may be warmer than normal. Morkoths realize that other intelligent creatures like treasure, so they collect belongings from the creatures they kill to use in bargaining with other creatures. They place no value on gold o
gems or even magical items. Morkoths enjoy deception above all else. They do not enslave their victims, if only because their appetites are so fierce that slaves would not survive long. (Monstrous Manual, p.258)


3rd Edition Morkoth

quote:
A morkoth lives a solitary existence, spending most of its days inside a maze of tunnels constructed of rock or coral at the bottom of the sea. The outer part of a morkoth’s lair usually consists of six tunnels, all spiraling outward, crisscrossing and interconnecting with one another in a bewildering pattern. The creature’s actual home is at the center of this maze. A morkoth uses a variety of lures to draw prey into its clutches. It may dangle treasure as a prize, but its hypnosis ability is the most powerful lure at its disposal. Once in a morkoth’s clutches, a victim doesn’t usually survive for long, since these creatures are interested in capturing only food, not slaves or captives. A morkoth has little interest in treasure except as a lure for prospective victims.(Monster Manual II, p.152)


Comparing and contrasting the two edition entries to see if 3rd edition describes a "colorful culture and race" and if the 2nd edition entry demonstrates "...basically a psychic crustacean trick monster,..." or not.

  • Solitary existence: both, check.
  • Spend most of their time in tunnels/rarely leave tunnels: both, check.
  • Carved tunnels that turn into mazes or something similar to that: both, check.
  • Don't value treasure: both, check.
  • Use deception/hypnosis: both, check.


After looking at the two of them, they both appear to be very similar in a side by side comparison, or in other words: colorful in their culture and race.

Also, as to attacking, the implication appeared to be that one is psychic and the other is not as "psychic" was left out in the portion of the argument that related to the 3rd edition Morkoth as having "colorful culture and race", whereas the 2nd edition evaluation was the only one of those two editions (2e and 3e) to include "psychic." However, upon looking at the entries, I found this:

  • 2nd edition Morkoth: "Special Attacks: Hypnosis"
  • 3rd edition Morkoth: "Special Attacks: Hypnosis"


My only point here is that the 2nd and 3rd edition monster entries appeared to have rather colorful cultures for the race of the Morkoth. Entries were not all that long.

  • 2nd edition Morkoth: 3,820 characters and 669 words
  • 3rd edition Morkoth: 4,243 character, 742 words


I believe the demonstrates that the two editions had a pretty similar layout there in terms of description.

quote:
...and the 5e Morkoth is a legendary astral traveler who imprisons the minds of all who come near it, then have we not established a precedent for each edition radically transforming this aberrant beaked creature into a new role in the game-space?


I don't feel the difference was much at all between 2e and 3e Morkoth. I feel the 5e is vastly different, thus the OOP's assertion:

quote:
The morkoth of the 5e MM is such a departure from what they are like in FR in Seros that I almost see them as a completely different species with just the same name.


The indication there being the emphasis on the difference of the 5e Morkoth, not the difference in juxtaposing the 2e and 3e Morkoth.

quote:
They are all viable, all can be used in any of your games, and the coming of a later version never reduced any aspect of the older entries.


I agree that they are "viable" if we consider the context and utility of "viable" as in could they be used after adjustment from one edition to another, in order to conform to gane mechanics? Absolutely. I feel the odd duck out here though is the 5e Morkoth based on its entry. I would post that entry for transparency, but it is 14,130 characters, and 2,483 words. It is substantially larger in volume, and in that volume, much more different than it's 3e/2e version.

quote:
What is the issue with 5e's interpretation of this 3.0 entry?


Answered above.

quote:
There is no lore in this core monster manual about any Seros culture, that must be in a realmslore book.


It is indeed. It is in the Sea of Fallen Stars setting expansion, pages 106-7.

quote:
This 3.0 entry seems to be perfectly between the 2e hypnotic aquatic tunnel horror and the powerful solitary lairing hoarder of 5e. The emphasis on the lair of the morkoth in both 2e and 3e is a guarantee that the 5e version would be Legendary, as to obtain Lair actions and regional effects that would -add- to their status as terrifying lair monsters.


The 3e and 2e were no less different hypnotically, as evidenced above. It really is that the 5e version stands apart in drastic ways, and in ways that with its differences don't appear to relate well overall to previous lore.

I feel that lore in 3e and 2e speak for themselves:

3rd Edition

Morkoth were already known as "...creatures of the deep enjoy reputations for cruelty and hatred as extensive as that of the morkoth." (Monster Manual II, 3.0, 2002, p.152)

2nd Edition

"Of all the creatures that inhabit the deep only the kraken exceeds the morkoth in malice and cruelty. Also known as the "wraith of the deep" the morkoth lurks in tunnels hoping to lure its victims into a trap from which they cannot escape" (Monstrous Manual, 2nd edition, p.258)

quote:
If there's no lore about Seros (or any culture at all for that matter) in the core 3e entry then why would you expect any in the 5e entry?


A great question indeed! I feel the reason for the 3rd edition entry not needing to have it, but the 5e entry needing to have it is the substantial difference in the creatures to begin with as Senior Scribe Seethyr indicated. The pre-existing lore from the Monstrous Manual 2nd Edition, and Sea of Fallen Stars, 2nd Edition gave such great lore that comported with effectively the same kind of creature as I indicated above with the comparative list, that there was no reason to add to it, the lore that was the same. The creature being largely different though in 5e, really should have that lore.

quote:
Remind me again why the 5e version of the morkoth is in any way more offensive than the 3e or the 2e entry for that matter?


To clarify, I don't feel anything is "offensive." We're simply having an academic discussion about a creature of the Realms. However, I will slightly rephrase the question to "Remind me again why the 5e version of the morkoth is in any way significantly different than the 3e or 2e entry for that matter?" The answer to that slightly rephrased question is everything I provided above.

As always, I appreciate the spirited debate Learned Scribe PattPlays, and look forward to your robust rebuttal! :)

Best regards as always,








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PattPlays
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Posted - 21 Nov 2020 :  10:40:23  Show Profile  Visit PattPlays's Homepage Send PattPlays a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That was calming to read. Thanks for pointing out the fallacies.

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Seethyr
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Posted - 21 Nov 2020 :  15:13:01  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The outlier is without a doubt the FR version found in the Sea of Fallen Stars and the threat from the sea novels. However, the recent iteration is only an increasingly distanced version from how that creature was portrayed in those products. That was second edition so at that point there not a huge disparity in the quantity of lore regarding them.

So once again, now we have realmslore that could easily have been alluded to or included but has instead been trounced upon. Not really bemoaning it, looking for a way to include it as you’ll see every single one of my responses has attempted to garner (“perhaps they’re different creatures”). This is after all, a forum on Realmslore.

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cpthero2
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Posted - 21 Nov 2020 :  20:01:23  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Learned Scribe PattPlays,

quote:
That was calming to read. Thanks for pointing out the fallacies.


I truly hope my rebuttal did not come across as sardonic. I meant none of it in a negative way. I certainly try my hardest to bridge the chasm of lack of inflection, etc. on the web, but sometimes that doesn't happen as well as I may intend. So, if I did offend with my approach to that rebuttal: my apologies.

Best regards,



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LordofBones
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Posted - 22 Nov 2020 :  05:26:50  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A lot of monster fluff is just flat-out bizarre. Look at the medusae; 2e and 3e have them as a monstrous race with a rare male species, who mate with mortal men. Okay, fine, they probably rose from the Olympian pantheon's home sphere then spread out.

In 5e, they're people who made deals with archdevils and demon lords for beauty. How does that even work? Did every single baatezu lord or tanar'ri prince decide on a universal template? Baatezu are lawful, so why would they inflict the snake-curse thing after the deal's duration? Why would tanar'ri inflict a standard curse template?
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cpthero2
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Posted - 22 Nov 2020 :  05:30:21  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master LordofBones,

Yeah, I think the "care-meter" in 5e for sticking to anything remotely resembling consistency to previous editions has been fraught with challenge.

Your medusa example is spot on in that case!

Best regards,





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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 22 Nov 2020 :  06:08:29  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

A lot of monster fluff is just flat-out bizarre. Look at the medusae; 2e and 3e have them as a monstrous race with a rare male species, who mate with mortal men. Okay, fine, they probably rose from the Olympian pantheon's home sphere then spread out.

In 5e, they're people who made deals with archdevils and demon lords for beauty. How does that even work? Did every single baatezu lord or tanar'ri prince decide on a universal template? Baatezu are lawful, so why would they inflict the snake-curse thing after the deal's duration? Why would tanar'ri inflict a standard curse template?



Personally, what blew my mind was beholders dreaming other beholders into existence, and the thing of a hyena eating food a gnoll didn't finish makes it become a gnoll. Both of those ideas are just too bizarre, and I'm honestly surprised someone thought they were good enough to print. I've seen fan-content that was much more logical and more interesting than that.

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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 22 Nov 2020 :  06:28:22  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master Rupert,

Ok... that legitimately made me pause reading that for a moment to wonder if you were imbibing in Dreammist. lol

Beholders dreaming others into existence and hyena's becoming gnolls by eating their unfinished food? That is a 5e thing?

Best regards,






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LordofBones
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Posted - 22 Nov 2020 :  06:57:26  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Blibdolpoolp was genuinely interesting. Look at it from a kuo-toa's point of view; their chief goddess has the head of a "noble" creature of the deep, only for the rest of her to be an alien growth of soft flesh, with....mounds...and...shapes. To the kuo-toa, she's a lovecraftian horror, an alien god-thing that is the progenitor of their race through unknown eldritch methods.

In 5e, they're all crazy.

To a lesser extent, there are ioun stones. In 2e, they were a creation of a Netherese arcanist that spread throughout the multiverse (which is totally cool, Mordy and Otto and Tenser have had their spells spread out, so it's nice to see a Faerunian contribution). In 4e and 5e, we have the goddess Ioun because obviously a kooky wizard couldn't do things like create cool stuff and name it after him.
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