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jordanz
Senior Scribe

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Posted - 14 Nov 2020 :  23:55:13  Show Profile  Visit jordanz's Homepage Send jordanz a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Anyone know who was the earliest documented adventuring party in the realms?

When were they active?

Where were they active?

Who were their members?

Kentinal
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Posted - 15 Nov 2020 :  00:29:52  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Human, orc, dragon or going back further?

I do infer that you are asking about a printed description in official FR products.

Adventuring clearly a product of any culture and time seeking to expand or just explore.

The deities likely could be listed as some of the first adventurer parties, however it is not documented as fact.

Unless you are more clear about what type of party you define as an "adventuring party" I believe not an answer can be offered. Even with a better definition it might be hard to answer because from time to time a Novel might describe very ancient party without a set date.

Edited by - Kentinal on 15 Nov 2020 00:31:12
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Ayrik
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Posted - 15 Nov 2020 :  01:25:58  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The 1E Old Grey Box summarized a lot of NPCs and "Chartered Adventuring Companies". Evidently prominent PCs, NPCs, heroes, and villains translated from Ed's pre-publication campaigns. The Dungeon and Dragon magazines of the era also offered a lot of character writeups.

TSR/WotC was still unfocussed on AD&D settings at the time. They were pushing Dragonlance (and it was very popular). They were still supporting Greyhawk (though it had begun to get "crowded" and "complicated"). And of course they were always working on Mystara stuff. Most of their published modules and adventures were simple and generic, they were intended to be dropped into any campaign/setting as needed. A lot of their early originally-for-Greyhawk stuff just got tucked into odd corners of the Realms.

I would say Thunderstorm (aka Dud Onahorz) - the guy on the cover of the OGB - could arguably be called the "first" adventurer ever seen in the published Realms. I would say that Elminster and Mirt might arguably be the "first" Realms characters Ed set to paper.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 15 Nov 2020 01:26:27
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
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Posted - 15 Nov 2020 :  03:01:11  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Senior Scribe jordanz,

quote:
Anyone know who was the earliest documented adventuring party in the realms? When were they active? Where were they active? Who were their members?


I believe the earliest known recording of an "adventuring party" that is documented (assuming documented means acknowledged in canon) was the Dawnbringer Company. It was a company of adventurers based out of Waterdeep in approximately 1024DR who ended up plundering an Orc crypt of sacred nature. Below is the excerpt:

quote:
In the Year of Lathander's Light (1024 DR), a daring band of Waterdhavian adventurers known as the Dawnbringer Company incited the orcs of Uruth Ukrypt by plundering their sacred crypt, known as the Ukrypt. Discovered in the act, the band fled the wrath of the Scarlet Scourge. (City of Splendors: Waterdeep, p9)


Best regards,






Higher Atlar
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jordanz
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Posted - 15 Nov 2020 :  05:16:45  Show Profile  Visit jordanz's Homepage Send jordanz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Senior Scribe jordanz,

quote:
Anyone know who was the earliest documented adventuring party in the realms? When were they active? Where were they active? Who were their members?


I believe the earliest known recording of an "adventuring party" that is documented (assuming documented means acknowledged in canon) was the Dawnbringer Company. It was a company of adventurers based out of Waterdeep in approximately 1024DR who ended up plundering an Orc crypt of sacred nature. Below is the excerpt:

quote:
In the Year of Lathander's Light (1024 DR), a daring band of Waterdhavian adventurers known as the Dawnbringer Company incited the orcs of Uruth Ukrypt by plundering their sacred crypt, known as the Ukrypt. Discovered in the act, the band fled the wrath of the Scarlet Scourge. (City of Splendors: Waterdeep, p9)


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Thanks. I would have expected some mention from way earlier times. 1024 seems relatively recently given the entire timeline of the realms.
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 15 Nov 2020 :  06:08:31  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That wouldn't be the earliest -- we know the Dead Three were adventurers, whilst mortal.

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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 15 Nov 2020 :  06:33:07  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master Rupert,

Thank you for that correction! I don't know how I forgot about the Dead Three, haha.

Senior Scribe jordanz, sorry about that lapse there. Master Rupert is of course correct. In fact, an interesting thing about the Dead Three in terms of age is that around 50DR to 100DR'ish, Alaundo the Seer portended the end of Bhaal which came about in the mid-1300's of course. So, the Dead Three were doing their adventuring well into the -DR's, I would gather.

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Higher Atlar
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PattPlays
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Posted - 15 Nov 2020 :  20:42:46  Show Profile  Visit PattPlays's Homepage Send PattPlays a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Master Rupert,

Thank you for that correction! I don't know how I forgot about the Dead Three, haha.

Senior Scribe jordanz, sorry about that lapse there. Master Rupert is of course correct. In fact, an interesting thing about the Dead Three in terms of age is that around 50DR to 100DR'ish, Alaundo the Seer portended the end of Bhaal which came about in the mid-1300's of course. So, the Dead Three were doing their adventuring well into the -DR's, I would gather.

Best regards,







It's interesting to think about the ways power is distributed in society post 1000DR versus back earlier in the age of humanity. It seems right that solo go-getters would have enough success to form companies only after most of the great historical societies had decayed and dispersed their power among the world. I forget the scale that Toril was said to have compared to earth's history, would 1490 be more akin to post or pre plague...
Point being it's curious to think of the edge cases geographically and politically for adventuring companies in times before the dead three here. Adventuring thrives near war, but not exactly well in total war. As fun as it may be to imagine even a tribal adventuring system in the days of thunder, there probably wouldn't be such a thing as a random encounter of less than CR 13 for parties to amass strength from gradually, nonetheless do anything with wealth.
Just to take it to extremes.

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The Arcanamach
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Posted - 15 Nov 2020 :  22:11:28  Show Profile Send The Arcanamach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Were the Dead Three an 'official' adventuring company? I'm quite sure they didn't call themselves the dead three while they were adventuring. Now, if they had an official name they went by, then I'd say they're likely the earliest recorded adventuring company...but then, they're deities and deities lie (so saith Ed of the Greenwood). Anyway, it's an interesting question, but they're are so many seemingly random references to adventuring/mercenary companies spread throughout the lore that finding the earliest would be difficult.

I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one.
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
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Posted - 15 Nov 2020 :  23:11:07  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master Arcanamach,

quote:
Were the Dead Three an 'official' adventuring company? I'm quite sure they didn't call themselves the dead three while they were adventuring. Now, if they had an official name they went by, then I'd say they're likely the earliest recorded adventuring company...but then, they're deities and deities lie (so saith Ed of the Greenwood).


I was making the assumption, and interpreted Senior Scribe jordanz' definition of "documented" as identified in canon/lore. If that is the case, then I definitely agree with Master Rupert.

However, if Senior Scribe jordanz meant for the word "documented" to mean, some sort of officially recognized adventuring group (of course, then there is a discussion that likely needs to be had about adventuring group and what defines that, i.e. Cormyr handing out charter's for example), then I believe my evaluation of the Dawnbringer Company would be correct.

Best regards,





Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 15 Nov 2020 :  23:35:03  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach

Were the Dead Three an 'official' adventuring company? I'm quite sure they didn't call themselves the dead three while they were adventuring. Now, if they had an official name they went by, then I'd say they're likely the earliest recorded adventuring company...but then, they're deities and deities lie (so saith Ed of the Greenwood). Anyway, it's an interesting question, but they're are so many seemingly random references to adventuring/mercenary companies spread throughout the lore that finding the earliest would be difficult.



A bunch of folks went adventuring together, they're an adventuring party. No one said anything about them having to have a name or a company charter.

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Delnyn
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Posted - 15 Nov 2020 :  23:45:59  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach

Were the Dead Three an 'official' adventuring company? I'm quite sure they didn't call themselves the dead three while they were adventuring. Now, if they had an official name they went by, then I'd say they're likely the earliest recorded adventuring company...but then, they're deities and deities lie (so saith Ed of the Greenwood). Anyway, it's an interesting question, but they're are so many seemingly random references to adventuring/mercenary companies spread throughout the lore that finding the earliest would be difficult.



A bunch of folks went adventuring together, they're an adventuring party. No one said anything about them having to have a name or a company charter.



I feel a bit cheeky right now.

Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul pass by a Purple Dragon garrison with their weapons in hand. The commander shouts, "Halt! Show your charter or have your weapons peace-bonded!"

...a combat round or two later...

Bane asks Bhaal and Myrkul, "Before we were so rudely interrupted, which Lost God is next on our list?"
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 16 Nov 2020 :  03:15:16  Show Profile Send The Arcanamach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
p.15 of GHotR: -10500DR - The eight sons of Taark Shanat set off to found their own kingdoms in the caverns to the north (beneath modern-day Tethyr and Amn). Because each son claims a different child of Moradin as a patron deity, each subkingdom becomes closely linked with the church of a particular god or goddess.

I think this qualifies. The next mention of them is on p.16 regarding the Spawn Wars (a thousand years later, so I assume the original eight sons are dead).

I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one.

Edited by - The Arcanamach on 16 Nov 2020 03:35:07
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 16 Nov 2020 :  03:42:50  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach

p.15 of GHotR: -10500DR - The eight sons of Taark Shanat set off to found their own kingdoms in the caverns to the north (beneath modern-day Tethyr and Amn). Because each son claims a different child of Moradin as a patron deity, each subkingdom becomes closely linked with the church of a particular god or goddess.

I think this qualifies. The next mention of them is on p.16 regarding the Spawn Wars (a thousand years later, so I assume the original eight sons are dead).



This one I will quibble with: it doesn't say they went as a group. I'm thinking they each went their separate ways.

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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 16 Nov 2020 :  07:36:40  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Senior Scribe Delnyn,

I am curious, since I feel a definition here will be quite helpful: when you say, "Anyone know who was the earliest documented adventuring party in the realms?", what is your definition of a "documented adventuring party"?

Best regards,




Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
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Posted - 16 Nov 2020 :  07:38:56  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master Arcanamach,

quote:
p.15 of GHotR: -10500DR - The eight sons of Taark Shanat set off to found their own kingdoms in the caverns to the north (beneath modern-day Tethyr and Amn). Because each son claims a different child of Moradin as a patron deity, each subkingdom becomes closely linked with the church of a particular god or goddess. I think this qualifies. The next mention of them is on p.16 regarding the Spawn Wars (a thousand years later, so I assume the original eight sons are dead).


I have to, even apart from my question seeking a definition from Senior Scribe Delnyn, agree with Master Rupert here. Even in the loosest sense, an adventuring party has the implication of adventuring together, towards some sort of goal. This doesn't confirm or deny that the Dwarves did work together or not. Otherwise, I would feel you hit a home run there!

Best regards,




Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Delnyn
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Posted - 16 Nov 2020 :  11:40:28  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master cpthero2,

Here is how I parsed the term "documented adventuring party". "Documented" means it was written as such in a recognized FR product such as a sourcebook, module or video game. It has nothing to do with being recognized by a FR government entity (see paragraph 4).

"Adventuring party" means two or more sapient, self-conscious individuals (unmodified Intelligence, Wisdom and Chasrisma scores each at least three) consciously - not necessarily willingly - coming together for at least one purpose that is not restricted to daily activities needed to operate a local population of at least hamlet size.

The purpose may be indefinite in scope (all members BFF) and duration or may be strictly defined and of short duration (escort the merchant caravan from Athkatla to the Vilhon Reach).
Individual members may or may not have additional motives not necessarily shared with any or all other members. There is nothing to prevent the members from being hostile to each other. As a classic example, consider Quenthel, Phaeraun (sp), Danifae, Ryld, Hallistra and Jeggred. They were unquestionably an adventuring party with some internal rivalries to say the least.

As implied in my Dead Three wisecrack above, the existence of an adventuring party does not depend upon a charter or writ of marque. The existence of an adventuring party need not be legal in some territory. In fact, many nobles often hire adventuring parties because the parties can be "off the books", so to speak.

quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Senior Scribe Delnyn,

I am curious, since I feel a definition here will be quite helpful: when you say, "Anyone know who was the earliest documented adventuring party in the realms?", what is your definition of a "documented adventuring party"?

Best regards,



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Brimstone
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Posted - 16 Nov 2020 :  14:01:58  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wasn't Elminster in an Adventuring Party in 'Making of the Mage"? IIRC El was a Thief at the time. Most of the party died violent deaths.

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Delnyn
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Posted - 16 Nov 2020 :  14:13:15  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone

Wasn't Elminster in an Adventuring Party in 'Making of the Mage"? IIRC El was a Thief at the time. Most of the party died violent deaths.



Yes, he aliases as Eladar the Dark and was friends with the thief Farl. They founded the Velvet Hands to oppose the Moonclaws, who worked for the *EDIT* magelords *EDIT* of Athalantar.

Although I guess the magelords could also have been landlords to make a few silver pieces on the side.

Edited by - Delnyn on 17 Nov 2020 02:24:13
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1812 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2020 :  14:52:00  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Senior Scribe Delnyn,

**EDIT** I am adding in something I found from the 3rd Ed. FRCS. I found it interesting in light of your offering of the definition you provided.

quote:
ADVENTURER COMPANIES
Groups of adventurers sometimes form communal associations that share treasure, responsibility, and risk. Adventuring companies stand a better chance of receiving official recognition and licenses from kingdoms, confederations, and other principalities that prefer formalized relations with responsible adventuring parties to unlicensed freebooting by random adventurers. In rare cases, adventuring companies can receive exclusive rights to specific areas, making it legal for them to "discourage" their competition.

Chartered adventurers are considered officers of the realm they serve, with some powers of arrest and protection against the interference of local lords guaranteed by the terms of their charter. For example, most strangers entering a city might be required to surrender or at least peacebond their weapons, but chartered company members are allowed to retain their arms and armor as long as they remain on their good behavior.


quote:
As implied in my Dead Three wisecrack above, the existence of an adventuring party does not depend upon a charter or writ of marque. The existence of an adventuring party need not be legal in some territory. In fact, many nobles often hire adventuring parties because the parties can be "off the books", so to speak.


Yeah, I can certainly see the point you make there. It comports with the reason behind my response to Master Rupert.

I just realized this morning after being very tired last night (I almost completed remodeling a room in my house yesterday) that I intended to ask Senior Scribe jordanz. I just mixed the two of you up. Though, I greatly appreciate your swift response as always good sir!

Best regards,


Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring

Edited by - cpthero2 on 16 Nov 2020 15:09:51
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 16 Nov 2020 :  15:23:07  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Senior Scribe jordanz,

quote:
Anyone know who was the earliest documented adventuring party in the realms?


My apologies for this being asked again. I intended to as you as the original poster, but asked Senior Scribe Delnyn instead (I was extremely tired last night).

When you ask, "Anyone know who was the earliest documented adventuring party in the realms?", what is your definition of a "documented adventuring party"?

Best regards,






Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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bloodtide_the_red
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Posted - 16 Nov 2020 :  16:14:43  Show Profile  Visit bloodtide_the_red's Homepage Send bloodtide_the_red a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In general, the further back Realms history goes the more vague it gets. Up to DR 0 it's full enough, but before that you get vague things like "oh king Bob made a castle", but then oddly have dozens, sometimes hundred of empty years.

And on the real world side, some writers will fill history with grand stories of hardy bands of adventurers.....and some don't.

I think the Eleminster groups would be the best answer. I think the earliest adventurer might be Sunbright from Nethiril, but I'm not sure he ever had a "group".

The oldest one I can find is: –1726 DR Dragonslayers led by Rafak el Cajaan. I guess a group of Dragonslayers would be an adventuring group.
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sleyvas
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Posted - 16 Nov 2020 :  17:27:32  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As far as a group of people getting together to be murder hobo'ing other cultures as a group? I say see the Sarrukh, and ask them who was killing them before they came to power. They might mention a really powerful group that they call "the dawn titans". Beyond that, the definition of an adventuring party is way too vague.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 16 Nov 2020 :  18:55:56  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

As far as a group of people getting together to be murder hobo'ing other cultures as a group? I say see the Sarrukh, and ask them who was killing them before they came to power. They might mention a really powerful group that they call "the dawn titans". Beyond that, the definition of an adventuring party is way too vague.



I would call that a war, not an adventure.

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cpthero2
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Posted - 16 Nov 2020 :  22:04:40  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Learned Scribe bloodtide_the_red,

quote:
I think the Eleminster groups would be the best answer. I think the earliest adventurer might be Sunbright from Nethiril, but I'm not sure he ever had a "group".


Sunbright Steelshanks, as far as I know, only traveled alone, after he fled after being told he'd murder all of his people.

quote:
The oldest one I can find is: –1726 DR Dragonslayers led by Rafak el Cajaan. I guess a group of Dragonslayers would be an adventuring group.


That's definitely a fantastic find!

After some digging around, I think possibly a good second place may be a dated appearance of the Dead Three that Master Rupert mentioned (and I had somehow forgotten about).

quote:
Shortly thereafter, a trio of adventurers from the north—a powerful warrior, a stealthy killer, and a necromancer— came to my court and prostrated themselves before me. The warrior wielded a simple iron blade that rippled with arcane energy. In exchange for passage through my demesne, the trio offered to slay the divine interloper and bear his heart away from my lands. (GHotR, p.46)


The Dead Three there, made their appearance at that topaz dragon's demesne, in the Year of the Boiling Moats, -359 DR.

Kind of cool. Great call Master Rupert!

Best regards,





Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 16 Nov 2020 :  22:13:44  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master Rupert,

quote:
I would call that a war, not an adventure.


I think it really depends on the cultural context, and ethics of a group of people.

From Britannica:

quote:
Genghis Khan was ready to start on his great adventure of world conquest. (https://www.britannica.com/biography/Genghis-Khan/Rise-to-power)


I don't really think that was either tongue and cheek, or anything other than a true belief that Ghengis Khan, really saw conquest as adventure. I take my own time in the US Army as an example too. As a retired soldier, I can say for certainty, my viewpoint at (17) years old when I joined, is vastly different than now. I viewed everything the military had to offer me at 17 through the immature, "fun" lens of all of the Avalon Hill games I played growing up as well as the black and white TIME Life books I read as a kid. I thought it was adventure, for sure.

I think it's the same thing in this case. I think it could be a nation, or a small group, such as the Dead Three for example.

Just a viewpoint though. I could certainly be wrong.

Best regards,





Higher Atlar
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