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Azar
Learned Scribe

103 Posts

Posted - 06 Nov 2020 :  07:13:51  Show Profile Send Azar a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Hello folks.

I was wondering...are there canonical examples of artifacts or even "mundane" magical items produced by two or more cooperating religions working in unison? There is this instrument I want to create, but I first wish to get a sense of how much such a creation would "break" established lore (i.e., the way the faiths interact with one another).

Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.

cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1764 Posts

Posted - 06 Nov 2020 :  07:36:22  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Seeker Azar,

quote:
I was wondering...are there canonical examples of artifacts or even "mundane" magical items produced by two or more cooperating religions working in unison? There is this instrument I want to create, but I first wish to get a sense of how much such a creation would "break" established lore (i.e., the way the faiths interact with one another).



I believe it is reasonable based on the legend behind it that the Elves of Tethir and Mir had multiple religions working together to complete the Calimemnon Crystal. That was and is a big deal.

I know it doesn't canonically state it, but hopefully this is in the right direction!

Best regards,





Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
9745 Posts

Posted - 06 Nov 2020 :  14:26:05  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't know of a canon example, but I wouldn't be surprised to find priesthoods working together in this way. It would very much depend on the priesthoods involved though and what they were building, and if its something old, did the priesthoods exist yet, were the priesthoods spread into whereever you're going to put it being build at that time, etc... Just some things to think about.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 06 Nov 2020 14:27:04
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1764 Posts

Posted - 06 Nov 2020 :  15:12:57  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader sleyvas,

quote:
I don't know of a canon example, but I wouldn't be surprised to find priesthoods working together in this way.


Agreed. I looked, but couldn't find any by the Triad. I was kind of surprised.

Best regards,


Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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TheIriaeban
Senior Scribe

USA
501 Posts

Posted - 06 Nov 2020 :  16:34:39  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The closest I have heard of multi-deity relics would be Harpers. Each of the gods involved have granted powers to Master Harpers (Code of the Harpers pg 40).

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1764 Posts

Posted - 06 Nov 2020 :  18:13:43  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Senior Scribe TheIriaeban,

I could see how that could be construed that way.

Although, with the good and evil that runs solidly through the Harper's how would you assign an alignment to that "relic"? lol

Best regards,





Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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TheIriaeban
Senior Scribe

USA
501 Posts

Posted - 06 Nov 2020 :  18:47:58  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I was just using that as an example where the gods can cooperate in "enchanting an object". However, if you want to go down that road, I would say any relic they cooperatively produced would be NG. Most of the gods involved are NG, with a couple CG, and one N. I do not see any evil deities (at least in Faiths & Avatars, the same-edition deities reference for Code of the Harpers) involved in the Harpers. If an evil Harper got a hold of it and used it for an evil purpose, it would either not work or there would be some divine retribution heading that Harper's way.

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents

Edited by - TheIriaeban on 06 Nov 2020 18:48:59
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1764 Posts

Posted - 06 Nov 2020 :  19:05:55  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Senior Scribe TheIriaeban,

quote:
I was just using that as an example where the gods can cooperate in "enchanting an object".


Ah, gotcha. I thought you meant as in enchanting the people themselves and being "instruments" of the deities. My bad. I misunderstood you.

quote:
However, if you want to go down that road, I would say any relic they cooperatively produced would be NG. Most of the gods involved are NG, with a couple CG, and one N. I do not see any evil deities (at least in Faiths & Avatars, the same-edition deities reference for Code of the Harpers) involved in the Harpers. If an evil Harper got a hold of it and used it for an evil purpose, it would either not work or there would be some divine retribution heading that Harper's way.


I get that the deities are listed that way, and that most of them are probably as listed for their alignments. However, Silvanus is definitely not neutral, if an absolute alignment system is being used. That deity is not ultra evil, but he surely isn't neutral. I'd say moderately evil'ish.

Best regards,



Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
4049 Posts

Posted - 06 Nov 2020 :  19:36:35  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Please don't.

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7311 Posts

Posted - 06 Nov 2020 :  19:42:22  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
We know that the evil deities like to dominate and subjugate their peers. So Mask is indentured to Shar, Bane can sometimes command Talos and Malar, etc.

And, to be honest, it's really much the same thing with the good deities. Torm and Helm serve Tyr, etc.

So it seems like there's some precedent in Realms mythology, if not in Realms history. Certain deities have interests which naturally produce alliances and enmities, at least in specifics.

I think that religious artifacts ("relics" in old lore) are always created by the designs and artifices (and narratives) of the deities themselves, not of their clergy. The god decides to craft a symbol of alliance with other gods, or the goddess decides to invest the essence of many gods into a weapon, whatever.

It's not about such mundane things like two churches getting along well enough to collaborate on fashioning an epic godly item.
From the perspective of a deity that's too binding. Too problematic. It's a permanent reminder of some shared oath or purpose with other deities - who might, as time moves forward - become competitors, adversaries, or even bitter enemies. The deities don't always have choice in the matter, but their little priesthoods and faithfuls aren't positioned (and really shouldn't dare) to impose such restrictions onto the beings they worship.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 06 Nov 2020 19:57:28
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1764 Posts

Posted - 06 Nov 2020 :  20:37:28  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader Darden,

I only planned to leave it there, only as a point. I'm certain if Great Reader Ayrik were so predisposed, that I could get him to engage me on the other scroll. Which, I would love to do Great Reader Ayrik! :)

I will absolutely endeavor to leave it at just that point, so that the scroll's don't cross contaminate.

Best regards,


Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7311 Posts

Posted - 06 Nov 2020 :  20:47:42  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@cpthero2 ... "the other scroll" ?

[/Ayrik]
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
4049 Posts

Posted - 06 Nov 2020 :  21:06:23  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Great Reader Darden,

I only planned to leave it there, only as a point. I'm certain if Great Reader Ayrik were so predisposed, that I could get him to engage me on the other scroll. Which, I would love to do Great Reader Ayrik! :)

I will absolutely endeavor to leave it at just that point, so that the scroll's don't cross contaminate.

Best regards,





There is no point but your own apparent agenda of defining things only as you see them; and a seemingly continuous deep need for others to see it your way as well despite all debate, logic or lack of information to support your stances.

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
5319 Posts

Posted - 06 Nov 2020 :  21:11:45  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There is an 11 ft long sword buried high up in a cliff along the river Sargauth with runes of Bane, Bhaal, Moander, and Myrkul along its blade.

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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1764 Posts

Posted - 06 Nov 2020 :  21:25:21  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader Ayrik,

Here is a link to it: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2195&whichpage=2

I'd love to get your input on it if you're interested!

Best regards,




Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1764 Posts

Posted - 06 Nov 2020 :  21:32:25  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader Dallison,

I see the reference to it here: https://alternaterealmsblog.wordpress.com/home/organisations/the-church-of-myrkul/

Are there any cited sources that demonstrate that in canon by chance? I looked and couldn't find anything, and that is really interesting!

Best regards,





Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Azar
Learned Scribe

103 Posts

Posted - 06 Nov 2020 :  21:44:52  Show Profile Send Azar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

Please don't.



Pardon? Why is this idea I'm considering objectionable?

Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1764 Posts

Posted - 06 Nov 2020 :  22:07:56  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Learned Scribe Azar,

I feel pretty confident in saying that Great Reader Darden was referring to my reference to the Emerald Enclave and Silvanus, being evil. I've had some discussions on the topic in some other scrolls. Great Reader Darden was politely asking me to not engage in it here, to which you saw my response.

Though, Great Reader Darden, if I am incorrect, please do correct me on that. I don't want to put words in your mouth.

Best regards,





Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
4049 Posts

Posted - 07 Nov 2020 :  00:56:33  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Azar

quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

Please don't.



Pardon? Why is this idea I'm considering objectionable?



Your idea is wonderful...my apologies for not being more clear in my earlier post.

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1764 Posts

Posted - 07 Nov 2020 :  03:47:31  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader Darden,

I am indeed happy to know that I did not offend thee! I also concur with you that Learned Scribe Azar's idea was "wonderful"! :)

Best regards,





Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
4049 Posts

Posted - 07 Nov 2020 :  06:03:47  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Great Reader Darden,

I am indeed happy to know that I did not offend thee! I also concur with you that Learned Scribe Azar's idea was "wonderful"! :)

Best regards,



I didn't mention you in my posted reply to him.

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1764 Posts

Posted - 07 Nov 2020 :  06:38:09  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Learned Scribe Azar,

I want to say it is possible (I could be wrong here though, quite easily) that the Elfblade's were produced by multiple people from different ethnicities of Elves.

Best regards,







Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Azar
Learned Scribe

103 Posts

Posted - 11 Nov 2020 :  00:27:39  Show Profile Send Azar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

It's not about such mundane things like two churches getting along well enough to collaborate on fashioning an epic godly item.
From the perspective of a deity that's too binding. Too problematic. It's a permanent reminder of some shared oath or purpose with other deities - who might, as time moves forward - become competitors, adversaries, or even bitter enemies. The deities don't always have choice in the matter, but their little priesthoods and faithfuls aren't positioned (and really shouldn't dare) to impose such restrictions onto the beings they worship.



You raise a fair point...and one I hadn't considered. However, after you read the idea I have kicking around, you may be more inclined to view it as a reasonable addition to a Forgotten Realms campaign. Below is the CliffsNotes version; once my draft is more "refined" than "rough", I may share it here.

quote:
In times past, there was an group of secluded Eldathyn (Eldathyns?) specifically focused on healing the mind. Sadly, there is never a shortage of those scarred by violence and not all scars rest on the skin.

One day, a group of travel-weary Mililans in the area visited the Eldathyns for a bit of respite. After both groups had dined for the evening, the Tuneservants of the divine troupe played gentle melodies as thanks for the generous meal. The Peacemen and Peacewomen found that some of the troubled souls sitting nearby in silent observation responded well to the music played by their guests. Seeing the value in this emotional outlet, they requested that the Mililans make a return trip to instruct their more flexible priests in the ways of music. The eldest of the Mililans agreed to this request and an arrangement was made.

Both branches of their respective faiths came together with such regularity that the Mililans one day decided to permanently post a band of their most introspective members as a gesture of goodwill. Eventually, a potent magical artifact was born from the union of their various efforts: the Mist Flute.


Unlike mundane examples of the instrument, this creation is formed from solidified mist. If dispelled, dispersed or otherwise disintegrated, the flute will automatically re-form (depending on the ambient moisture content, this could take anywhere from hours to weeks). Only those of pure thought are able to use the flute to its fullest capacity.

Below are just some of its powers.

  • Calm aggressive emotions.

  • Quench one's thirst for an entire day.

  • Conjure an obscuring mist.

  • Summon rain.

  • Nullify/absorb magic or magical attacks that involve dehydration and/or heat (such as Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting) A strong enough opposing force causes the enchanted water droplets that compose the flute to fly apart; weaker forces cause a reduction in ability until the flute can fully regenerate.


Thus far, I've tentatively settled on this specimen resembling a shakuhachi; perhaps one of the Mililans is an emigrant from Wa?

--- --- ---

As I see it, there are multiple reasons why this works/isn't a bridge too far.

1. There is - to my knowledge - no history of conflict between Eldath and Milil.
2. Both Eldath and Milil are Neutral Good in Alignment; both deities and the core of their worshipers basically believe in doing what's best without bias towards either restructuring or deconstructing the world...or at least their milieu.
3. While Milil isn't explicitly devoted to pacifism the way Eldath is, he's more of a lover than a fighter (he prefers to make music and to encourage others to find their own creativity through poetry and song). Also, his avatar has the ability to make others in his presence feel at peace.
4. The artifact in question is purely defensive. Yes, a devious enough mind could no doubt find a way to pervert its intention, but it is much more difficult to misuse a creation not designed for violence or domination.

Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
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Azar
Learned Scribe

103 Posts

Posted - 15 Nov 2020 :  04:12:23  Show Profile Send Azar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I feel like a black hat that has just wandered into a saloon only to see the patrons suddenly vacate the premises .

Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
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Kentinal
Great Reader

4509 Posts

Posted - 15 Nov 2020 :  04:23:03  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Azar

I feel like a black hat that has just wandered into a saloon only to see the patrons suddenly vacate the premises .



I am sure you are not considered a black hat. Though it appears you got caught mixed up with side issues/disagreements of other scribes at candlekeep in this scroll.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1764 Posts

Posted - 15 Nov 2020 :  04:28:31  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Learned Scribe Azar,

quote:
I feel like a black hat that has just wandered into a saloon only to see the patrons suddenly vacate the premises .



I feel you are from a "black hat." I for one greatly appreciate your contributions, discussions, and involvement at the 'Keep.

Best regards,





Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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