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cpthero2
Great Reader

USA
2250 Posts

Posted - 02 Nov 2020 :  02:05:33  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Good evening,

I am looking to see if there is a list of all deities (by deities, I colloquially include primordials, immortals, etc.) that have ever existed in the Realms, for all pantheons, at all different times of the Realms as far as back as possible? Additionally, I am looking to see, if such a list exists, if it defines when that deity came to be, when the lived, and when they died.

Thank you in advance for any feedback.

Best regards,



Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring

George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6075 Posts

Posted - 02 Nov 2020 :  10:30:38  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There would be only a handful of "hard dates" for when gods "came to be".

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34495 Posts

Posted - 02 Nov 2020 :  10:46:24  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A lot of the dead ones we don't have anything approaching a date for. At best, we can assign a fairly tight range for some, like Leira or those killed during the ToT. But some of the others, like Murdane or the ones the Dead Three slew/cast down? We don't even have a millennia that it happened in.

On top of that, several of the dead deities were never mentioned before the mention of their death. We learned about Ibrandul, for example, in a monster entry that noted that Shar had killed him.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 02 Nov 2020 14:43:37
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7361 Posts

Posted - 02 Nov 2020 :  15:04:36  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The 2E Arcane Ages stuff specifies which deities did exist (and did not exist) in ancient Netheril.

The racial archetype deities - Corellon, Moradin, Lolth, Gruumsh, Asgorath/Bahamut/Tiamat, and all the rest - are almost surely present wherever their peoples are present.

There are known dates (or years) for the arrival of some deities - like Tyr, like Tymora/Beshaba (from Tyche), etc. Mostly in 3E lore, I think.

The origins of the eldest known deities - Mystril/Mystra, Selune, Chauntea, Shar, etc - are framed as mythology, not history.

Some deities in the Realms - like the Fenris, Dendar, etc - originated in foreign mythologies, often "older" mythologies which place their origins at times predating the Realms entirely. But they're generally not well defined in Realmslore and their arrival dates in the Realms are usually unspecified.

[/Ayrik]
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34495 Posts

Posted - 02 Nov 2020 :  16:15:36  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

The 2E Arcane Ages stuff specifies which deities did exist (and did not exist) in ancient Netheril.



And there was a prior discussion about this, where one of the viewpoints was that this list only applied to Netheril, and not to the wider Realms.

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik


There are known dates (or years) for the arrival of some deities - like Tyr, like Tymora/Beshaba (from Tyche), etc. Mostly in 3E lore, I think.



The Tyche/Tymora/Beshaba thing is really problematic, from a time frame perspective, in my opinion.

Ed recently dropped a tidbit indicating that the Dawn Cataclysm happened during Mystryl's time. Given that none of the lore on Netheril mentions this, my assumption is that this means the Dawn Cataclysm predated Netheril.

From the 3E FRCS, we know that the church of Tyche split into the churches of Tymora and Beshaba during the 700s DR -- more than a thousand years after the death of Mystryl and the fall of Netheril.

But we also know that Tyche split into Tymora and Beshaba during (but not necessarily because of) the Dawn Cataclysm.

So either Tyche's church stayed together despite the split for a thousand years, bare minimum, and likely much longer -- or what we know about their split is incorrect.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 02 Nov 2020 16:23:08
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
9914 Posts

Posted - 02 Nov 2020 :  17:08:05  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

A lot of the dead ones we don't have anything approaching a date for. At best, we can assign a fairly tight range for some, like Leira



Man, she still has you guys fooled... damn she's a good liar

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7361 Posts

Posted - 02 Nov 2020 :  18:07:20  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I always confused Leira and Lliira. As did my players. Enough to "break canon" and just treat them as two avatars of one goddess with a combined portfolio, lol.

That being the case, Leira/Lliira in "my Realms" may have vanished, but never perished.

[/Ayrik]
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34495 Posts

Posted - 02 Nov 2020 :  19:15:13  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

A lot of the dead ones we don't have anything approaching a date for. At best, we can assign a fairly tight range for some, like Leira



Man, she still has you guys fooled... damn she's a good liar



She's got you thoroughly fooled, that's for certain.

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cpthero2
Great Reader

USA
2250 Posts

Posted - 02 Nov 2020 :  20:41:58  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master Rupert,

It is ironic that you mention Leira, as that is the deity at the center of what I seek. As far as I know, the earliest known entry about her is from 173DR, during the Exodus of the Leirans. I was hoping there may be more about her earlier years.

I have theories that I use in my campaigns, but nothing predicated on dictated lore.

Best regards,



Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34495 Posts

Posted - 02 Nov 2020 :  23:06:06  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Master Rupert,

It is ironic that you mention Leira, as that is the deity at the center of what I seek. As far as I know, the earliest known entry about her is from 173DR, during the Exodus of the Leirans. I was hoping there may be more about her earlier years.

I have theories that I use in my campaigns, but nothing predicated on dictated lore.

Best regards,






Sleyvas brought her up. He's a big fan of hers. I would expect him to be far more familiar with her and her lore than I.

I came aboard with the Time of Troubles, so Leira was mostly out of the picture when I started getting into the setting, and she's never been of particular interest to me. I'm more intrigued by one of her most notable followers, the Mistmaster, but even he doesn't rank highly on my list of favorite NPCs of the Realms.

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cpthero2
Great Reader

USA
2250 Posts

Posted - 02 Nov 2020 :  23:28:37  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master Rupert,

I appreciate that. I will super focus on Great Reader sleyvas then! :)

quote:
Sleyvas brought her up.


Great Reader sleyvas, apparently you are the contemplative overlord of all things Leiran (per the exact quote of Master Rupert: just look!). Do you have any further insight you might be willing to share?

Best regards,


Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
9914 Posts

Posted - 03 Nov 2020 :  01:18:20  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As far as I know, there's never been any hint to when Leira came about. To note though, somewhere in the novel series, Oghma notes that Leira has faked her death many times in the past. That makes me think that she's been around a very long time. My PERSONAL take is that she has been around as long as Mystryl. There may have actually have been two daughters born of Selune and Shar at that time, but only one gets notoriety. But that's all speculation.

BTW: I must admit to not seeing the value of Leira until after she was gone. I guess I can relat that back to being young. I was more upset at losing Bane and Myrkul, but they were soon replaced by Xvim and Velsharoon, and I found I liked them more (I know Velsharoon is not well loved by many, but I like him). But there's so much backstory plotting that you can use Leira for.... even when she's "dead". I know they tried to spin Cyric as basically Loki reincarnated to a degree, but it never quite fit. I much prefer the idea that Leira was absorbed by Mask and then reformed her energy much like Mask did.... to make an "avatar object".... and that avatar object was the Cyrinishad.... thus Leira ruined Cyric. I also like the idea that she replayed this idea of "becoming a book" in order to serve her goddess/sister.... and she became "the tome of Fastrin the Delver" just a few years AFTER the Cyrinishad debacle and before the spellplague. Thus, she arranged to get herself in the hands of Szass Tam so that she could trick him into casting a spell to draw on the Athora and revitalize Mystra in her time of need. To note, there's at least one novel story that notes that Tam isn't favored by the goddess of illusion.... so there were at least 2 gods of magic that didn't like him (Velsharoon... the god of the school Tam specialized in... specifically hated Tam). That all really makes me think that when Larloch gave Tam a cursed magic item that makes him change his essential nature to be more "evil".... maybe THAT was all part of a plan of the gods as well. Not saying that they all knew exactly what to do, but they did have a god of divination on their side, and maybe he could tell them key things that needed to happen.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 03 Nov 2020 01:35:36
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7361 Posts

Posted - 03 Nov 2020 :  02:30:12  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In 1E and 2E logic, illusion is a specialized subset of magic. So Leira could have once been an aspect of Mystra. Or could be a mortal (like Azuth once was) who was ascended through part of Mystra's power and portfolio. And either way could have grown or diverged since her inception to become a goddess of some greater stature.

[/Ayrik]
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34495 Posts

Posted - 03 Nov 2020 :  02:48:17  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

In 1E and 2E logic, illusion is a specialized subset of magic. So Leira could have once been an aspect of Mystra. Or could be a mortal (like Azuth once was) who was ascended through part of Mystra's power and portfolio. And either way could have grown or diverged since her inception to become a goddess of some greater stature.



And that's part of why I was never a fan of Leira: I don't see a need for deities of subsets of magic... Especially when it's only a few of the subsets that get them. Why not a deity of evocation? Why not a deity of summoning?

(This is also part of why I've never liked the tripartite sun deity idea: why three deities for different parts of the day? Are noon and dusk really worth having a deity for?)

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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1832 Posts

Posted - 03 Nov 2020 :  03:52:34  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

My PERSONAL take is that she has been around as long as Mystryl. There may have actually have been two daughters born of Selune and Shar at that time, but only one gets notoriety. But that's all speculation.


That if we believe the tale the Netherese told us is true. There have been more ancient magical civilizations before Netheril, which means Mystryl was an "evolution" of a more reptilian/amphibian deity somewhere... Leira must have evolved that way. Or she is just an ascended mortal from those old times.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


I know they tried to spin Cyric as basically Loki reincarnated to a degree, but it never quite fit.



And here I was, believing Cyric was an allegory to the DMPC trope...

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1832 Posts

Posted - 03 Nov 2020 :  03:59:00  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert


And that's part of why I was never a fan of Leira: I don't see a need for deities of subsets of magic... Especially when it's only a few of the subsets that get them. Why not a deity of evocation? Why not a deity of summoning?

(This is also part of why I've never liked the tripartite sun deity idea: why three deities for different parts of the day? Are noon and dusk really worth having a deity for?)



And I thought here people liked to have zillions and zillions of gods, even if they had redundant or useless functions... that's why I'm very happy with 4e reduced list of gods. If I ever need a new god, I just add it. But I don't have to deal with ridiculous deities such as the goddesses of bathrooms from Kara-Tur...

But, I guess this depends on the culture? Perhaps for the Netherese, or some culture post-Netheril, having deities for each section of the day was really important. We know that the current Faerūnian religion is a fusion of many religions that somehow got lumped together after the Dawn Cataclysm.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34495 Posts

Posted - 03 Nov 2020 :  04:37:45  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert


And that's part of why I was never a fan of Leira: I don't see a need for deities of subsets of magic... Especially when it's only a few of the subsets that get them. Why not a deity of evocation? Why not a deity of summoning?

(This is also part of why I've never liked the tripartite sun deity idea: why three deities for different parts of the day? Are noon and dusk really worth having a deity for?)



And I thought here people liked to have zillions and zillions of gods, even if they had redundant or useless functions... that's why I'm very happy with 4e reduced list of gods. If I ever need a new god, I just add it. But I don't have to deal with ridiculous deities such as the goddesses of bathrooms from Kara-Tur...

But, I guess this depends on the culture? Perhaps for the Netherese, or some culture post-Netheril, having deities for each section of the day was really important. We know that the current Faerūnian religion is a fusion of many religions that somehow got lumped together after the Dawn Cataclysm.



I like most of the other deities, I just don't see a need for having a "deity of this smaller aspect of the thing this other deity covers!"

And for the sun deities -- dawn has a lot of symbolic meaning, so it makes sense to have it covered by someone. Noon or dusk? Not so much. Actually it would make more sense to have one deity of the sun, covering all times of the day -- but if you're going to subdivide it, dawn is the obvious choice.

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
9914 Posts

Posted - 03 Nov 2020 :  13:31:49  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

In 1E and 2E logic, illusion is a specialized subset of magic. So Leira could have once been an aspect of Mystra. Or could be a mortal (like Azuth once was) who was ascended through part of Mystra's power and portfolio. And either way could have grown or diverged since her inception to become a goddess of some greater stature.



And that's part of why I was never a fan of Leira: I don't see a need for deities of subsets of magic... Especially when it's only a few of the subsets that get them. Why not a deity of evocation? Why not a deity of summoning?

(This is also part of why I've never liked the tripartite sun deity idea: why three deities for different parts of the day? Are noon and dusk really worth having a deity for?)



I can both appreciate and also not appreciate that concept. So, Mystra is "magic for magic's sake". It doesn't matter HOW its used. So, in some respects, she has to be somewhat neutral on things. The thing is though that these deities who are also "subsets of magic" deities need to be more than just a school of magic. They're NOT just Mystra's servants, and arguably, they can do things that piss off Mystra.

In the case of Leira, we very much see this IF she has the portfolio of lies. A lot of people don't even see her as reporting to Mystra in the earlier stuff because illusionists were "separate". Now, the question is "does she still have the portfolio of lies", and many would say "No, Cyric is listed as having that portfolio in the SCAG". So, officially, she's not back the same as she was before because they don't want to get rid of Cyric. That's where the concepts that I've put forth of Leira being "the Cyrinishad" and infecting Cyric with herself, and deluding him, come into play. She's in essence slowly absorbing him like a snake swallowing a mouse, while it lies there helpless and its venom drives it mad.

This is also why I'd like for the other gods of magic to have more than one master. For instance, I see Deneir as a god of magic. I would like for him to serve Mystra as a god of symbols, spellbooks, and scroll magics. But I'd also like him to still serve Oghma as well. This makes greater gods a little more wary of abusing their "servitor gods", because they aren't pigeonholed as only able to serve one god. In a similar method, I'd like to see other deities like the Red Knight as a goddess of spell strategy and tactics. Siamorphe could be a goddess of sorcerers and the responsibilities of being born with natural power. Also similarly, perhaps gods like Velsharoon may take on other subsets of magic (for instance, I could see him being involved with summoning magic as well), or may even do things like offer pacts for warlocks. Auppenser, if he isn't Sardior, may ally with Sardior. Savras becomes harder to place as working with another deity, and I actually see Azuth in a servitor role only to Mystra.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
9914 Posts

Posted - 03 Nov 2020 :  13:58:23  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

My PERSONAL take is that she has been around as long as Mystryl. There may have actually have been two daughters born of Selune and Shar at that time, but only one gets notoriety. But that's all speculation.


That if we believe the tale the Netherese told us is true. There have been more ancient magical civilizations before Netheril, which means Mystryl was an "evolution" of a more reptilian/amphibian deity somewhere... Leira must have evolved that way. Or she is just an ascended mortal from those old times.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


I know they tried to spin Cyric as basically Loki reincarnated to a degree, but it never quite fit.



And here I was, believing Cyric was an allegory to the DMPC trope...



On the Mystryl/Selune/Shar "story" AND the "coming from an earlier religion".. yes, I agree. They're all three coming from an earlier god and took on a name for humans. I also hold that probably something happened that split up the power of these beings. I would almost try to link it to Shekinester, but its "too hard to fit". I feel its very much related to the tearfall however and the destruction of a moon that used to be in the sky.

On the "Cyric as Loki" thing, its somewhat subtle, and you mainly start to see it from the novels. I saw it mostly at the ending of the trial of Cyric series, but then it continued. Eventually they even had him "getting locked away by Tyr, Lathander, and Sune" for his actions that threatened the world..... kind of like being Loki being locked away by the gods Tyr, Frey, and Freya (technically we don't know who all locked away Loki, as the stories vary, but they hang a great snake above his head). I prefer to think of this time when Cyric was supposedly locked away as the time he was being absorbed by Leira the snake-tongued, while she was active in Abeir and needed a "body" to return to on this side. In essence, I view the spellplague as Ao's method of introducing gods to Abeir (which I know some will hate, but hey, if it was only the ones that disappeared, its a start).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7361 Posts

Posted - 03 Nov 2020 :  14:18:00  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
1E and 2E described Leira's portfolio as "illusion, deception".
3E described it as "illusions, trickery, charms, lies".
5E describes it as "illusions, deceptions, trickery, lies".

Cyric's portfolio had "deception, lies" added mid-2E, and I don't think these components have been changed or removed in later editions.

Perhaps I'm being pedantic, but "lies" and "deceptions" are not the same thing. They overlap enough to often be interchangeable but they are also different enough concepts for their godly metaphorical portfolios to manifest in vastly different ways. Deception is about confusing true and false things; making it impossible to know what is true and what is untrue. Lies are about avoiding, twisting, or obscuring truth; making something untrue appear (and effectively become) true.

Leira's power is about deception. Obscuring or confusing true things with false appearances. Manipulating perceptions.
Cyric's power is about lies. Concealing or ignoring true things with false words. Manipulating understandings.

Other deities also seem to overlap a little into this: Shar's power includes forgetfulness (erasing truths with oblivion), Talona's power includes "poisoning truths until they sicken and die", Mask has evolved through various forms of "intrigue" and "deception" of different kinds. (Not to mention Mask's dominion over "shadows" which are vaguely entangled within many illusion magics.)
And of course many deities offer a variety of solipsisms and miracles which are effectively untrue (unreal, don't exist) unless you deliberately, actively, consciously believe them to be true (which provides faith to magically give them very real substance and effect).

To me there's a distinct difference. I would treat "lies" as a specialized subset of "deceptions" in a way analogous to treating "illusions" as a specialized subset of "magic". But the opposite symmetry also applies ... many illusions don't involve magic, and "illusions" are also a broader category of interests than "magic" encompasses ... just as many lies don't involve deception, and "lies" are also a broader category of interests than "deception" encompasses.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 03 Nov 2020 14:53:31
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
9914 Posts

Posted - 03 Nov 2020 :  14:42:17  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, I like to twist this idea from the SCAG

Leira has worn many masks, and more than once has been thought to be dead or to be another deity altogether. Perhaps such a reputation is only natural for the goddess of illusion and deception. Her faithful agree that whatever the "truth" might be, their Lady takes great delight in the confusion sown by her various incarnations. Even the faithful of Cyric once taught that their god killed Leira, but now they espouse the strange idea that somehow she is his daughter.

So... is his daughter... "she was born from him".... "she was reborn through him"... "she grew inside him and took him over"...

Hmmm, and I did just notice something in rereading the SCAG... just an interesting "factoid" on languages... She is credited with inventing Ruathlek, the language of illusionists and the spoken tongue of Nimbral...... so the people in Nimbral supposedly speak in ruathlek....

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7361 Posts

Posted - 03 Nov 2020 :  15:07:13  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My understanding is that Ruathlek exists only as a written magical language. Impossible for non-illusionists to properly comprehend.

1E rules provided magic-user and illusionist classes, along with read magic and write magic spells for scribbling spell formulae and stuff. They each could not decipher the other magical writing system. Although thieves/assassins/acrobats/bards using read languages had a chance of casting (and a chance of miscasting) any written magic they encountered, without needing actual comprehension of the magical workings.

2E rules implicitly retained Ruathlek's distinction for illusionists. It also introduced other magical encoding systems (like those used by Red Wizards, elementalists, and shadowmages) to separate other wizard specialists/groups/schools/philosophies.

The spoken forms of these languages were explained to be the actual language of magic. The same language which included power words and truenames, speaking these words actually cast the magics, they were taxing on the wizard, required hours of memorization (and mastery of levels) to utter properly. Misspeaking them might have dire consequences. The mystical language of raw, pure magic was certainly impossible to use for normal, casual conversation.

But evidently this might have been changed in 3E.

[/Ayrik]
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1832 Posts

Posted - 03 Nov 2020 :  15:08:22  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


On the "Cyric as Loki" thing, its somewhat subtle, and you mainly start to see it from the novels. I saw it mostly at the ending of the trial of Cyric series, but then it continued. Eventually they even had him "getting locked away by Tyr, Lathander, and Sune" for his actions that threatened the world..... kind of like being Loki being locked away by the gods Tyr, Frey, and Freya (technically we don't know who all locked away Loki, as the stories vary, but they hang a great snake above his head). I prefer to think of this time when Cyric was supposedly locked away as the time he was being absorbed by Leira the snake-tongued, while she was active in Abeir and needed a "body" to return to on this side. In essence, I view the spellplague as Ao's method of introducing gods to Abeir (which I know some will hate, but hey, if it was only the ones that disappeared, its a start).



The only vibe I got from the novels, is that Cyric was this "not-evil, just an angsty, darkz and kweel anti-hero" that got all the cool stuff because reasons (such as Mask's sword), and in the nd he ascended to godhood with... how many portfolios? And to greater god status right from the start, even when he was an utterly nobody a few hours before that, and wasn't even using the name of one of the gods he replaced.

The only other character who got to ascend was the girl, with just one portfolio (albeit an important one, of course), and the other two characters got chafed (one killed, the other only got to be the cleric of Mystra, lol).

If that is not an allegory of a DM dotting his PC with all the cool stuff, while trying to impress the girl playing in the group... well, I don't know what else it is.

And yeah, I know Kelemvor eventually resurfaced, but that was in another novel series.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 03 Nov 2020 16:46:11
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7361 Posts

Posted - 03 Nov 2020 :  15:48:37  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Cyric wasn't just "an utter nobody". He was a particularly unlikeable, snivelling, cowardly, selfish, untrustworthy, treacherous nobody. A scummy little thief and opportunist, a common street criminal with low talent and ambition, and he was not even very accomplished at any of that. Unworthy in the eyes of most mortals, let alone in the eyes of gods and overgods.

Midnight wasn't particularly special either. Not in terms of word and deed, not in heroic conduct or merit, not in background or status. Although she had apparently been pre-selected (perhaps even bred and groomed) for the position by Mystra herself. So at least she had some "predestined" divine nepotism working for her, marking her as a "worthy" candidate for ascension to godhood.

Both of them were just at the right place at the right time. Ao's a busy being, no time to waste on little worldly concerns, he just promoted the nearest two mortals available for the position. It might be argued that Ao "designed" this plan and its outcome from the outset, but that doesn't really change the character of the characters themselves, they both behaved rather poorly (and incompetently) after their divine ascensions.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 03 Nov 2020 16:07:09
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
5388 Posts

Posted - 03 Nov 2020 :  16:48:18  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Having read the avatar novels recently I have to agree with zeromaru x's interpretation.

He was almost a good guy in the first novel, apart from murdering people that got in his way or threatened his friends.

In the second novel he had a complete personality change which was a shame because he was much more interesting in the first novel.

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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1832 Posts

Posted - 03 Nov 2020 :  16:51:37  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, I don't mind who was ascended, rather that Cyric, a nobody, unknown to the wider world, went straight to "greater deity" from the start. Which isn't only illogical from an in-universe perspective (how a totally unknown guy became a wide known deity in 5 minutes?) but also speaks a lot of the author and his mary sue-ness issue.

Midnight at least was using Mystra's name, so that people knew her and she remained greater deity makes more sense than just "hey, I'm Cyric, new god in town. I'm now Greater Deity cuz reasons".

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 03 Nov 2020 16:52:39
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