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Azar
Learned Scribe

116 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2020 :  22:36:59  Show Profile Send Azar a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Hello folks.

What marks the difference between a Paladin engaging in courtship and flirting? Some interpretations of this Class/calling insist on absolute chastity that adheres to real-life inspiration and even precludes purely non-physical love whereas other takes are more liberal/permissive (e.g., later editions of D&D introduced Paladins of Sune). In your games, would a Paladin that flirts - so long as they were open about their intentions and not concurrently engaged with multiple prospective romantic partners - be completely out of order, walking a fine line or behaving well within their expected ethics/morals?

Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.

Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1804 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2020 :  00:38:23  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't use that kind of stuff, I find it restrictive and punitive for the players.

I guess that if the religion the paladin is a member of has that kind of rules, then yeah, it would be a bit problematic for that paladin. But the only punishment I would impose would be among the faith (excommunication, penitency, etc.). Nothing that hinders his ability to actually play the game. That is not my style.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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TheIriaeban
Senior Scribe

USA
510 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2020 :  00:40:54  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I would say as long as the paladin follows proper societal etiquette while adhering to their god's tenants, they are covered. If the god expects celibacy from its priests, the paladin should follow the same. If the god is more of a "bestow your blessings wherever invited" kind, I would think the paladin would be the same.

Also, a god may encourage relations under certain circumstances and not necessarily others. As an example, page 114 of Faiths and Avatars has this:

"The best-known to outsiders of the holy rituals of Mielikki are the Four Feasts of the solstice and equinox nights. These are known simply as the First Feast, the Second Feast, and so on. They are occasions for holy rituals and revels, wherein all Mielikki's faithful are expected to celebrate the sensual side of existence and sing praises to the Lady in forest depths wherever possible."

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Diffan
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USA
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Posted - 28 Oct 2020 :  01:23:53  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Because paladins need a Patron in my Realms games, it would largely depend on the customs of that deity and any societal customs of where their from. Different examples might be, a Paladin of Helm from Tethyr might take it upon himself to be chaste until marriage and the notion of flirting is out of the question where as a Paladin of Kossuth from Rasheman might not dwell much on Courtship and simply show likeness of potential suitors as they see fit, possibly more than one.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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34225 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2020 :  02:00:27  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Celibacy really isn't a thing, for the most part, in the Realms.

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bloodtide_the_red
Learned Scribe

USA
118 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2020 :  02:43:11  Show Profile  Visit bloodtide_the_red's Homepage Send bloodtide_the_red a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This depends on the deity and church and any religious order.

In cannon we see plenty of married paladins and ones that have healthy night lives. Gareth Dragonsbane and Piergeiron the Paladinson, Ilmater and Tyr were both married.

Also the Realms being like "1400 Earth" don't have "flirting", but more "Middle Ages Courtly Love". The old 2E Paladins handbook had a whole chapter on this, and that book is well worth getting.

"Courtly Love was at its core a social relationship between a noble, valiant knight--and a beautiful, noble, and glorious woman that was essentially unobtainable by the knight pursuing her, and seeking her hand and a full, consumation of their love affair. The relationship could not typically be consumated because of moral sanctions; the woman in question was typically already married, and as adultery was held to be a terrible sin, and forbidden conduct to anyone that was pious, righteous and honourable. "

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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1812 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2020 :  05:02:44  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Seeker Azar,

Those sorts of restrictions are purely dogma based. Dogma is just the divine command ethic of 'x' deity. I don't even recall a deity in the Realms that dogmatically enforces celibacy. Geez... I'd go find another deity, haha. That's just me though.

Which deity were you thinking of?

Best regards,



Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Azar
Learned Scribe

116 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2020 :  05:20:08  Show Profile Send Azar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

I don't use that kind of stuff, I find it restrictive and punitive for the players.

I guess that if the religion the paladin is a member of has that kind of rules, then yeah, it would be a bit problematic for that paladin. But the only punishment I would impose would be among the faith (excommunication, penitency, etc.). Nothing that hinders his ability to actually play the game. That is not my style.



My thought process hadn't advanced to actual punishment . I know that earlier editions of D&D were relatively harsh when it came to conscious Chaotic acts (anything that broke from expected protocol, but wasn't actively malicious). Later on, the Paladin received more leeway; there was an increased emphasis on doing good than worrying about the letter of a law. In the worst cases, a Paladin would have to confess the liberty he had taken in his conduct...and that's all.

Regardless, I can't envision a scenario where sincere-albeit-informal courting counts as an Evil act.

quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

I would say as long as the paladin follows proper societal etiquette while adhering to their god's tenants, they are covered. If the god expects celibacy from its priests, the paladin should follow the same. If the god is more of a "bestow your blessings wherever invited" kind, I would think the paladin would be the same.

Also, a god may encourage relations under certain circumstances and not necessarily others. As an example, page 114 of Faiths and Avatars has this:

"The best-known to outsiders of the holy rituals of Mielikki are the Four Feasts of the solstice and equinox nights. These are known simply as the First Feast, the Second Feast, and so on. They are occasions for holy rituals and revels, wherein all Mielikki's faithful are expected to celebrate the sensual side of existence and sing praises to the Lady in forest depths wherever possible."



She never struck me as being particularly preoccupied with such formalities (being a Neutral Good god concerned with maintaining the harmony between civilization and the wilderness). Any such limitations among her faithful are almost certainly self-imposed philosophy.

quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

Because paladins need a Patron in my Realms games, it would largely depend on the customs of that deity and any societal customs of where their from. Different examples might be, a Paladin of Helm from Tethyr might take it upon himself to be chaste until marriage and the notion of flirting is out of the question where as a Paladin of Kossuth from Rasheman might not dwell much on Courtship and simply show likeness of potential suitors as they see fit, possibly more than one.



Kossuth has Paladins ? Fascinating.

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Celibacy really isn't a thing, for the most part, in the Realms.



I imagine it would be a bit of a hindrance with the attendant mortality rate.

quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red

This depends on the deity and church and any religious order.

In cannon we see plenty of married paladins and ones that have healthy night lives. Gareth Dragonsbane and Piergeiron the Paladinson, Ilmater and Tyr were both married.

Also the Realms being like "1400 Earth" don't have "flirting", but more "Middle Ages Courtly Love". The old 2E Paladins handbook had a whole chapter on this, and that book is well worth getting.

"Courtly Love was at its core a social relationship between a noble, valiant knight--and a beautiful, noble, and glorious woman that was essentially unobtainable by the knight pursuing her, and seeking her hand and a full, consumation of their love affair. The relationship could not typically be consumated because of moral sanctions; the woman in question was typically already married, and as adultery was held to be a terrible sin, and forbidden conduct to anyone that was pious, righteous and honourable. "





From what you've managed to discern, does that supplement mean "noble" as in "of nobility" or "noble" as in "moral/principled"?

quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Seeker Azar,

Those sorts of restrictions are purely dogma based. Dogma is just the divine command ethic of 'x' deity. I don't even recall a deity in the Realms that dogmatically enforces celibacy. Geez... I'd go find another deity, haha. That's just me though.

Which deity were you thinking of?

Best regards,






The Paladin in question is a follower of Torm. I haven't managed to nail down any concrete details on Torm's word concerning this particular subject other than possibly one narrow passage.

quote:
The True Resurrection celebrates Torm's rise anew to power and is a joyous feast and revel where laws are set aside just for this one day and night so that the Tormtar can stray from the principles of law and order once a year. Most use this opportunity merely to shock others by speaking freely or by enjoying sensual pleasures with their fellow Tormtar—but a few every year employ it to bring vengeance down on someone.

Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1812 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2020 :  05:44:11  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Seeker Azar,

quote:
I know that earlier editions of D&D were relatively harsh when it came to conscious Chaotic acts (anything that broke from expected protocol, but wasn't actively malicious).


If I might be so bold... I feel the reason that was the case is because older versions of D&D, understandably, did not receive significant treatments of deep ethical, moral, etc. analysis. While I study the material significantly, most don't, and they certainly don't want to read about the moral quandaries of a Paladin of Torm aboard a Cormyrean naval vessel, deciding if his interpretation of Triad dogma when juxtaposed against Cormyrean naval law creates a conflict!

Ok, I love that, but most don't I feel. ;) haha

Anyhow, the box that paladins were placed within, largely had to do with old Britannia style concepts of chivalry, etc., that frankly are silly. It's easiest to stick with the dogma as Master Zeromaru X was getting at as well.

quote:
Later on, the Paladin received more leeway; there was an increased emphasis on doing good than worrying about the letter of a law. In the worst cases, a Paladin would have to confess the liberty he had taken in his conduct...and that's all.


Ah yes, the age old argument: if a paladin makes a utilitarian judgement or a deontological judgement, does the person still get punished "fairly" in the eyes of our Lord and Savior, Tyr? lol

Ethics is what is all about.

quote:
Regardless, I can't envision a scenario where sincere-albeit-informal courting counts as an Evil act.


Well, what is evil? What is the rubric for analyzing an act to be evil or not?

quote:
She never struck me as being particularly preoccupied with such formalities (being a Neutral Good god concerned with maintaining the harmony between civilization and the wilderness). Any such limitations among her faithful are almost certainly self-imposed philosophy.


The alignment system really creates an interesting problem between the deities dogma/ethos and how actions are implemented. The guidestone for anyone set of decisions don't appear to be presupposed upon the will/whim/dogma of 'x' deity, but rather, an equally unidentified, and malleable set of criteria relative to (9) different outcomes that appear to need to apply to dozens and dozens of gods, from multiple species? haha Never made sense to me.

quote:
Kossuth has Paladins ? Fascinating.


Oh yeah! Paladins of different deities are a thing, and should be. Afterall, all a paladin is, is a more martial cleric who has at the expense of great learning in The Power, focused said efforts into martial prowess, unles....

A paladin of Mask? Now that deserves a looking into. ;)

quote:
I imagine it would be a bit of a hindrance with the attendant mortality rate.


Well, that and I am certain Sharress would get around to getting the good fun going on sooner or later. ;) You're going to roll a 1 eventually! lol

quote:
The Paladin in question is a follower of Torm. I haven't managed to nail down any concrete details on Torm's word concerning this particular subject other than possibly one narrow passage.


Honestly, still my most favorite kind of paladin to play. I play paladin's of all sorts of deities, but he is a "classic" one for sure. Absolutely awesome. Good memories. No limits on having the good fun as far as I know.

Best regards,







Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
4020 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2020 :  12:52:52  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Azar

Kossuth has Paladins ? Fascinating.



It would certainly depend, I guess, on the edition you're running with. Most of my experience is with 3rd, 4th, and 5th Editions. With 3e/3.5 being probably the most restrictive, I'd point to the multitude of alt-alignment Paladins that have been produced over the years - in both Dragon magazine and in Unearthed Arcana. Great way to incorporate some different concepts to he Holy Warrior theme.

In 4E Paladins must be the alignment of their chosen deity but isn't restrictive to what that deity is. So you could have Paladins of Kossuth who are Unaligned (meaning they don't lean heavily one way or another) and work towards their churh's goals. Personally I like this model the best as it allow for a lot of flexibility AND I urge players to come with their own Organizations and Orders for their Paladins to be apart of.

In 5E, they're tied to Oaths, so it wouldn't be too difficult to see a Paladin swear to the Oath to the Flame Lord to carry out their desires on the Prime Material plane, whatever those desires are. Honestly I should come up with my own Flame-based Paladin Oath that would fit the concepts and ideals of Kossuth.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
9761 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2020 :  15:04:09  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

quote:
Originally posted by Azar

Kossuth has Paladins ? Fascinating.



It would certainly depend, I guess, on the edition you're running with. Most of my experience is with 3rd, 4th, and 5th Editions. With 3e/3.5 being probably the most restrictive, I'd point to the multitude of alt-alignment Paladins that have been produced over the years - in both Dragon magazine and in Unearthed Arcana. Great way to incorporate some different concepts to he Holy Warrior theme.

In 4E Paladins must be the alignment of their chosen deity but isn't restrictive to what that deity is. So you could have Paladins of Kossuth who are Unaligned (meaning they don't lean heavily one way or another) and work towards their churh's goals. Personally I like this model the best as it allow for a lot of flexibility AND I urge players to come with their own Organizations and Orders for their Paladins to be apart of.

In 5E, they're tied to Oaths, so it wouldn't be too difficult to see a Paladin swear to the Oath to the Flame Lord to carry out their desires on the Prime Material plane, whatever those desires are. Honestly I should come up with my own Flame-based Paladin Oath that would fit the concepts and ideals of Kossuth.



Also, late in 2e they had paladins but they introduced a "non-paladin" religious fighter called a crusader. Kossuth had crusaders.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7315 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2020 :  15:24:38  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Paladins and cavaliers always follow some kind of code of conduct. Gallantry towards the opposite sex is a typical component of that code. But not for all paladin orders, not for all knightly orders, not for all religions.

Some paladins accept vows of celibacy or chastity. It's usually optional.

Early D&D paladins/knights were modeled after early historical European paladins/knights which were themselves invariably (military) instruments of Christianity. So they often imposed a very solemn tone onto everything, they viewed themselves as righteous exemplars of the most noble virtues, they viewed the fair gender (and the institution of marriage) as most sacred and inviolate things to be protected and cherished.

But then again, they were only human. They'd spend their coin in taverns and carouse with the wenches just like any other soldier during campaign. Most large armies were followed by entourages of merchants and mercenaries offering all sorts of useful services, including prostitutes who could sometimes become quite wealthy. And these "services" tended to favor those with rank and authority and lineage (and an abundance of coins) before tending to the common men.

I can't imagine a paladin of Sune being shy of flirting and seduction. I can't imagine a paladin of Tymora willing to withold the "fortune" and "blessings" of his goddess. I can't imagine any reason a paladin serving Mystra or Tyr or Lathander would be compelled towards or away from love/lust unless it somehow interferes with his oaths, discipline, and duties. I can't imagine a paladin (or "crusader") of Kossuth being able or willing to restrain his burning desires.
Most Realms deities have interests and tenets and "portfolios" very different from those our historical paladins aspired to follow. They have nothing in common with old European Christianity. They have no particular reason for them to abide by old European paladin codes.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 28 Oct 2020 15:33:39
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Dalor Darden
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USA
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Posted - 28 Oct 2020 :  15:32:12  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The 12 Peers were involved in romance.

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1812 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2020 :  16:01:06  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader Diffan,

I will say, though I still utilize 3/3.5, and adopted effectively 4e/5e rules regarding paladins and other things years ago, it is a good thing that those ethical issues were dealt with in 4e/5e. A very good move for sure.

I always found it odd that anti-paladin was a thing, as it did in fact make the paladin a weathervane for what was good and evil. Kind of silly in my eyes.

Best regards,




Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34225 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2020 :  17:12:34  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm old school, there, myself. D&D paladins were built from the romantic images of knights in shining armor, so I prefer to keep them LG and more-or-less maintain that image. (As far as D&D is concerned, I "grew up" in 2E, so I still tend to think in 2E terms)

I'm not opposed to divine warriors like them that are not LG; in fact, it makes sense for there to be a variety of them. I just prefer to keep the term "paladin" limited to the LG ones, and give the others some other name.

But that's just me. It's not something I feel is worth debate -- there's a lot better topics to spend my energy on.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 28 Oct 2020 17:25:42
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1812 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2020 :  18:05:50  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master Rupert,

I totally get that, good sir! We all have those things we love and like to have one way or another in our games. There certainly is that romantic consideration about the classic paladin. I think that's honestly why I like the idea of a paladin of Torm. Good stuff!

Best regards,




Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Azar
Learned Scribe

116 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2020 :  21:52:54  Show Profile Send Azar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I am most definitely using the classic/original Paladin: Lawful Good through and through. IMO, Paladins of any other Alignment/ethos dilute the meaning of the title simply by existing. That said, I have no problem with "un/holy champions" or "crusaders" of any religion. Someone has to constitute the martial arm of a faith, yeah?

Paladins of Neutral Good deities aren't much of a stretch, however; after all, they're only one step on the Alignment axis removed from the OG Paladin's Lawful Good. I could be convinced to allow a Paladin of Mystra or Lathander. Hell, a Paladin of Chauntea is salable on the premise alone.

Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1812 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2020 :  23:00:59  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Seeker Azar,

I can definitely get what you saying there for sure! I am curious, since you definitely have a solid set of beliefs on that, do you enjoy discussing philosophical elements, the field of ethics specifically, about religion, paladins, etc. within the context of the Realms? I have some scrolls you might find interesting if so. :)

Best regards,






Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
4020 Posts

Posted - 29 Oct 2020 :  00:53:13  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Great Reader Diffan,

I will say, though I still utilize 3/3.5, and adopted effectively 4e/5e rules regarding paladins and other things years ago, it is a good thing that those ethical issues were dealt with in 4e/5e. A very good move for sure.


I'd say that the whole concept of ethical elements should be something both DM and Player discuss during Session 0. So if a DM wants the classic LG-only style Paladin, it should be clear that ethical aspects could arise that will test that character. Every notion of Catch-22 should be thrown out unless it's something the player "opts" into.

This is largely why I see people being upset with alignment-requirements, especially in regards to older versions of the game. Not just that, but simply losing all of your abilities - which I always found to be dumb in application - really makes the game less viable from a Mechanics side. I'd MUCH rather have the "loss" of power be granted in other things. For example, a LG Paladin does questionable things, instead of just losing Lay on Hands, they don't heal anymore but harm opponents. He can't "Detect" the evil about him, but maybe instead sees the chaos that resides in them (assuming a LN-Paladin bent). The change would be gradual, and if the Player is cool with it, some what surprising in his new but altered powers. Ultimately he changes completely over to the "new" order of Paladin-hood (call it whatever you like, 3e Dragon magazine had a whole list of alternative names).

quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

I always found it odd that anti-paladin was a thing, as it did in fact make the paladin a weathervane for what was good and evil. Kind of silly in my eyes.

Best regards,



It was an odd notion, basically a Paladin of evil alignment - total opposite but achieving similar concepts. Which was even more silly when 3.5 made the Blackguard a prestige class. Should've just made it a fully fledged 1-20 Class that was the Anti-Paladin reskinned. At least we got the Paladin of Tyranny that does pretty much the same thing.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
4020 Posts

Posted - 29 Oct 2020 :  00:56:32  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Also, late in 2e they had paladins but they introduced a "non-paladin" religious fighter called a crusader. Kossuth had crusaders.



I'll have to check those out. While I'm not going to play 2E anytime soon, the concepts would still be interesting to read. Similarly, 3.5 had the Crusader class (Tome of Battle) that was pretty awesome. What I feel the base Paladin should have been to start with. I like that the inspiration of their Maneuvers are sporadic and granted randomly - has a very cool feel to the class.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1812 Posts

Posted - 29 Oct 2020 :  02:45:33  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader Diffan,

quote:
I'd say that the whole concept of ethical elements should be something both DM and Player discuss during Session 0. So if a DM wants the classic LG-only style Paladin, it should be clear that ethical aspects could arise that will test that character. Every notion of Catch-22 should be thrown out unless it's something the player "opts" into.


I could not agree with you anymore if I tried. I've only have had three groups of players in the last (15) years [I have consistent groups], and I interview the players after getting responses on Meetup, etc. I do the interviews for a variety of reasons, but one of those reasons is to ensure that they are down for how I handle in game issues such as alignment (which I really don't use), where I've replaced alignment for all intents and purposes with a psyche profile for the character. Essentially, super, mega heavy on the RP, not so much a focus on crunch, which people do need to opt-in to. Great point good sir!

quote:
It was an odd notion, basically a Paladin of evil alignment - total opposite but achieving similar concepts. Which was even more silly when 3.5 made the Blackguard a prestige class. Should've just made it a fully fledged 1-20 Class that was the Anti-Paladin reskinned. At least we got the Paladin of Tyranny that does pretty much the same thing.


Agreed on the issues of the confusing nature and how they essentially danced around it with things like the 3.5 Blackguard, etc.

I utilize paladins of all faiths, just in different ways. For example, a paladin of Mask is a mixture of priest and rogue. It just would be that way. A paladin of Eldath could be (I have different options for this one) a monk with a focus on combat that involves only non-lethal, misdirecting unarmed skills such as Aikido, etc. I want to ensure that the paladin is doing the function of their deity, whatever that is. It can mean some pretty cool new forms of paladins come about.

Best regards,




Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34225 Posts

Posted - 29 Oct 2020 :  03:00:17  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Also, late in 2e they had paladins but they introduced a "non-paladin" religious fighter called a crusader. Kossuth had crusaders.



I'll have to check those out. While I'm not going to play 2E anytime soon, the concepts would still be interesting to read. Similarly, 3.5 had the Crusader class (Tome of Battle) that was pretty awesome. What I feel the base Paladin should have been to start with. I like that the inspiration of their Maneuvers are sporadic and granted randomly - has a very cool feel to the class.



It was either Faiths & Avatars or Powers & Pantheons that had crusaders. I really liked the concept, myself.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 29 Oct 2020 :  03:01:43  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh, and back on topic, I remembered this, earlier...

There was a knightly code presented in the old FRA... From pages 2 and 3 of that resource, in the section under "Cavaliers":

quote:
The knightly code, as recognized in the Realms, is as follows, rated from most generally important to those of lesser (but still critical) import.

  • Defend any responsibility given, even unto death;

  • A knight's word is his law;

  • Show courage in all things;

  • Show honor to those above one's station;

  • Earn respect from those below one's station;

  • Leadership is the responsibility of the high-born and the fit;

  • Battle is the test of worth (this is rated higher by those knights who strongly venerate Tempus);

  • Be courteous to all women (or all men, depending on the sex of the former cavalier);

  • Bring death to those who raise their weapons against a knight or those entrusted into the knight's protection;

  • Choose death before dishonor.



The same section also noted the knightly virtues:

quote:
The knightly virtues in the Realms are:

Honor
Bravery
Glory
Good faith
Unselfishness
Courtesy
Pride in self and others

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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 29 Oct 2020 :  04:37:02  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master Rupert,

quote:
There was a knightly code presented in the old FRA... From pages 2 and 3 of that resource, in the section under "Cavaliers":


Ahh, that is from the golden oldies for sure! I remember the good ole days with that material! :)

quote:
The knightly code, as recognized in the Realms, is as follows, rated from most generally important to those of lesser (but still critical) import.
  • Defend any responsibility given, even unto death
  • A knight's word is his law
  • Show courage in all things
  • Show honor to those above one's station
  • Earn respect from those below one's station
  • Leadership is the responsibility of the high-born and the fit
  • Battle is the test of worth (this is rated higher by those knights who strongly venerate Tempus)
  • Be courteous to all women (or all men, depending on the sex of the former cavalier)
  • Bring death to those who raise their weapons against a knight or those entrusted into the knight's protection
  • Choose death before dishonor



I love this kind of stuff. I am going to dig into it a bit here since it is always interesting.

Now, I would love to get your opinion Master Rupert (as well as anyone else that wants to chip in):

1) "Defend any responsibility given, even unto death." Now, predicated upon the knightly virtues, I don't see anything there that is up for much debate, ethically.

2) "A knight's word is his law." Now, before I can go to far into this, Master Rupert, which one of the following do you feel is more accurate to that statement in interpreting it:

a) A knight's word [word = a promise, or statement of guarantee] is his law, or in other words, "A knight's word is his promise to keep", or...
b) A knight's word [word = a unit of language, a.k.a. a unit of expression in a sentence], "A knight's word is his command as law".

3) "Show courage in all things." Presupposed on those virtues, no argument there.

4) "Show honor to those above one's station." Based on the virtues, is it anyone of any station above yours? What system defines the station such that you would show honor to that person?

5) "Earn respect from those below one's station." Predicated on the virtues, nothing to dig into there.

6) "Leadership is the responsibility of the high-born and the fit." So, as long as a person is high-born and in physically fit (or mentally fit, or both), then they are good to go? If it is about mental fitness, how is that adjudicated in the Realms?

7) "Battle is the test of worth." In modern day Great Britain, people like Sir Patrick Stewart can become Knight's as thespians. Do you feel that Sune would be right to have knight's who are thespians, or should knighthood only be reserved for those willing to be violent? Can a person who venerates Eldath, become a Knight of Eldath?

8) "Be courteous to all women (or all men, depending on the sex of the former cavilier)." Why is this a knightly code?

9) "Bring death to those who raise their weapons against a knight or those entrusted to a knight's protection." If you could be a knight of Eldath, would you be compelled to kill that person who raised a weapon against you? Does it mean any form of attack results in death, or just deadly intention?

10) "Choose death before dishonor." Based on the virtues, I can see that.

Great post Master Rupert!

Best regards,





Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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keftiu
Senior Scribe

476 Posts

Posted - 29 Oct 2020 :  05:41:35  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't know if it's been said so far in this thread, but: in 5e, each Paladin Oath has a list of Tenets they must abide by, and I don't thiiiink any demand celibacy?

My favorite is that the Oath of the Crown (a Paladin in service to a state or ruler) has no Tenet for honesty ;p

4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms.
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1812 Posts

Posted - 29 Oct 2020 :  05:51:58  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Senior Scribe keftiu,

quote:
...in 5e, each Paladin Oath has a list of Tenets they must abide by, and I don't thiiiink any demand celibacy? My favorite is that the Oath of the Crown (a Paladin in service to a state or ruler) has no Tenet for honesty ;p


So in 5e, all paladins must take that Oath?

Best regards,


Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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