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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
10017 Posts

Posted - 21 Oct 2020 :  14:34:45  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I'm going to try and start a conversation here that I hope we can have, but I'm saying up front... Wooly, if it gets out of hand, shut it down. I don't want to talk about Trump, Biden, democrats, republicans, or any of our real world "factions" and their views here. It will turn ugly if we do, because I know some people don't share the views of others here.

What made me write this? I saw a political ad, and I thought to myself "Why does every candidate keep saying this". What are they saying? Its not controversial. Its the candidate saying WHATEVER and then saying "I approve this message". Well, of course you do... you're saying it... Anyway, it seems like an absurd thing to say whenever YOU are the one actually delivering the message personally and not someone else saying it and then you do some voiceover at the end showing that you approve what someone else said.

But, what that got me to thinking about was elections in the realms. I then started to think, where do they even HAVE elections in the realms? I'm honestly drawing a blank here other than like a local mayor or something small like that. Are there any that come to mind? Has anyone ever thought to run a campaign around adventurers having to protect a candidate? How might you use an election IN a campaign? How might magic be used to affect a campaign (either to promote a candidate, smear a rival, change the votes, or just earn money)? I don't personally have any plans to use such, but I felt it might be a worthwhile discussion, especially if someone's ever actually done anything with the idea. Essentially, what might a campaign in the realms look like, because it definitely wouldn't look like our modern campaigns, but it also wouldn't look like a campaign from our civil war era or prior because of magic?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1844 Posts

Posted - 21 Oct 2020 :  15:19:14  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Realms, at least as depicted in the official books, are a simulation of feudal times, so I don't think I've seen any examples of democracy there (save for Tymanther, an element that was added in a controversial edition). Rulers are elected by right (be this divine or of noble blood) rather than by merit/acclamation. Mayors are appointed by a noble or royal, not by the people, for instance.

The only thing close to an election I've seen on Realmslore were the Vanquisher elections in the Brimstone Angels novels. But those elections are hardly like ours, as the dragonborn only chose their candidates from the military elite, and only the oligarchy can vote...

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 21 Oct 2020 15:20:00
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TheIriaeban
Senior Scribe

USA
620 Posts

Posted - 21 Oct 2020 :  15:27:54  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Bron was "elected" by the people of Iriaebor. He was not what the Merchant Council wanted but the people decided they wanted Bron as Lord of Iriaebor. Here is what is said in FRA:

"Bron came to power through the desperation of the common folk. He was seen as a just, no-nonsense, stubborn fighter for peace and fairness. Iriaebor was then an open battleground between feuding merchant families. Bron opened the coffers of his church and ruthlessly expropriated the wealth of slain merchants to hire an army of experienced warriors. These acted only against the fighting bravos of the merchants and against Zhentarim agents from Darkhold who instigated much of the fighting."

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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ElfBane
Learned Scribe

USA
185 Posts

Posted - 21 Oct 2020 :  15:37:37  Show Profile Send ElfBane a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


What made me write this? I saw a political ad, and I thought to myself "Why does every candidate keep saying this". What are they saying? Its not controversial. Its the candidate saying WHATEVER and then saying "I approve this message". Well, of course you do... you're saying it... Anyway, it seems like an absurd thing to say whenever YOU are the one actually delivering the message personally and not someone else saying it and then you do some voiceover at the end showing that you approve what someone else said.



The reason they say that (I approve this message), is because it is required by law.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34594 Posts

Posted - 21 Oct 2020 :  16:19:42  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

I'm going to try and start a conversation here that I hope we can have, but I'm saying up front... Wooly, if it gets out of hand, shut it down. I don't want to talk about Trump, Biden, democrats, republicans, or any of our real world "factions" and their views here. It will turn ugly if we do, because I know some people don't share the views of others here.



And to echo this: Keep current, real-world politics out of this discussion. Feel free to discuss historical political processes IF RELEVANT, but leave off any current stuff. I WILL remove anything pertaining to current real-world politics, particularly any references to any candidates running for any office in the United States.

That said...

I'm not familiar with the Realms having much in the line of popular elections; at most, it seems to be either elections for city councils (and may or may not involve the citizens) or leadership votes within groups -- city councils selecting one of their own as a leader, guilds electing a new guildmaster, that kind of thing.

There's not a huge amount of electioneering that can be done in the Realms, compared to the real world. Speeches and broadsheets, obviously, and likely throwing money around, but mass mailings, other forms of advertisement, traveling the countryside to shake every hand, kiss every baby, and all the rest isn't as likely. It may happen within a city, if there's popular elections, but otherwise, a candidate will just schmooze the particular council people/guild members that they need the support of.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!

Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 21 Oct 2020 16:23:31
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7377 Posts

Posted - 21 Oct 2020 :  16:24:37  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Elections?

You don't elect monarchs. The King, Queen, Prince, Princess, or Regent is the supreme leader of state and that's that.
You don't elect aristocracy. The Royals assign land and title as they see fit, they promote or demote vassals as they choose and that's that.
You don't elect nobility. The higher vassals assign lesser vassals to serve their needs in the feudal heirarchy and that's that.

The nobility does select people to handle the actual day-to-day governance of things, though. The people in charge of the farming, industry, military, the magistrate, the legate, whatever positions the noble cannot attend personally. There's no fixed rules about who qualifies and how they're chosen. The local lord might even allow elections or personally assure the most popular candidate is chosen (obligated) to become the village mayor, etc. Others might instead assign the task based on merit. Or simply assign a favoured (or disfavoured) ambitious knight the locals have never heard of.

The temples and churches can have real power, too. Maybe as much (or more) than the local government. And each one will have its own methods of selecting leaders.

Guilds, banks, and merchant houses can have real power in cities where they operate. They might have a monopoly on certain goods, skills, or services. They might simply have vast quantities of gold. They might select their leaders in all sorts of different ways.

[/Ayrik]
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3497 Posts

Posted - 21 Oct 2020 :  16:43:29  Show Profile Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-I feel like Planescape might be a better source for this kind of stuff.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1844 Posts

Posted - 21 Oct 2020 :  18:35:12  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

Bron was "elected" by the people of Iriaebor. He was not what the Merchant Council wanted but the people decided they wanted Bron as Lord of Iriaebor. Here is what is said in FRA:

"Bron came to power through the desperation of the common folk. He was seen as a just, no-nonsense, stubborn fighter for peace and fairness. Iriaebor was then an open battleground between feuding merchant families. Bron opened the coffers of his church and ruthlessly expropriated the wealth of slain merchants to hire an army of experienced warriors. These acted only against the fighting bravos of the merchants and against Zhentarim agents from Darkhold who instigated much of the fighting."



This sounds more like people breaking the system, and not something done following the system. They were desperate, they chose their new leader. But there is no law saying all their leaders should be appointed that way.

Anyways, as for political speeches, Dagult Neverember has a few good ones in the Neverwinter Campaign Setting and in some missions of the MMO.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Kentinal
Great Reader

4565 Posts

Posted - 21 Oct 2020 :  18:48:45  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Trade guilds by their nature have some kind of voting system.

To become a master of a trade the other masters decide by vote or agreement on mastership being achieved. It might be even a vote to allow one to have an apprentice . A guild decides who can become a member of it. Merchant guilds might be less democratic by actual fighting for locations to do business, however to be a guild at all there is required some kind of leadership and thus decisions made by at least one, by very likely a few. That would vote. There could be some campaigning, however it would be for them among the leaders or those that decide.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
10017 Posts

Posted - 21 Oct 2020 :  20:02:43  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ok, so so far then, its sounding a lot like I was thinking (that there isn't anywhere that's truly democratic at all). There may be some smaller city states that have a democratic voting in of their local ruler in the Vast or the Heartlands, but nothing broader. Kentinal brings up a good point that I was kind of thinking about with guilds (in that I was trying to remember how the leaders of Amn are put into place, as I know its a council.... I don't THINK its a secret council... but at the same time that country is different as they have a ban on mages). However, with small guilds (or magocracies & dragonborn cities), most everyone that would be voting would be a relatively small number in total, so campaigning would be next to nil. The only other places that kind of ring as possibilities in my head (as in I have no clue how their leaders are elected, or even what their leadership is like) would be Luiren and Lantan. I'm betting Luiren is like most others though and probably the same with Lantan.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
10017 Posts

Posted - 21 Oct 2020 :  20:22:09  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

I'm going to try and start a conversation here that I hope we can have, but I'm saying up front... Wooly, if it gets out of hand, shut it down. I don't want to talk about Trump, Biden, democrats, republicans, or any of our real world "factions" and their views here. It will turn ugly if we do, because I know some people don't share the views of others here.



And to echo this: Keep current, real-world politics out of this discussion. Feel free to discuss historical political processes IF RELEVANT, but leave off any current stuff. I WILL remove anything pertaining to current real-world politics, particularly any references to any candidates running for any office in the United States.

That said...

I'm not familiar with the Realms having much in the line of popular elections; at most, it seems to be either elections for city councils (and may or may not involve the citizens) or leadership votes within groups -- city councils selecting one of their own as a leader, guilds electing a new guildmaster, that kind of thing.

There's not a huge amount of electioneering that can be done in the Realms, compared to the real world. Speeches and broadsheets, obviously, and likely throwing money around, but mass mailings, other forms of advertisement, traveling the countryside to shake every hand, kiss every baby, and all the rest isn't as likely. It may happen within a city, if there's popular elections, but otherwise, a candidate will just schmooze the particular council people/guild members that they need the support of.



Actually though, and this is kind of what I was hoping to discuss.... magic COULD make some things possible that we don't think about. For instance, a programmed illusion that "loops" a candidate through his speeches periodically. Maybe even something where someone pays someone for "timeslots" that THEIR illusion advertising them for leadership plays for people passing by.

Which speaking on that... let's also open the floor as well to discussions of "magical advertising" and how it might be done in ways that look different from our world.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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cpthero2
Great Reader

USA
2250 Posts

Posted - 21 Oct 2020 :  20:37:28  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader sleyvas,

quote:
Has anyone ever thought to run a campaign around adventurers having to protect a candidate?


I haven't run a campaign around it, but I have had elements of my campaigns that have included protecting heir-apparents to a titled position being protected from a variety of influencers trying to affect local governance.

quote:
How might you use an election IN a campaign?


I would use elections as a means by which to consider and cause interesting political turmoil as it would push against the typical paradigm of governance. If a group of people started vying for leaders to be elected directly by the people themselves, that would be of enormous change. The kind of scrutiny that such a modality of governance would bring by nations such as Thay, among others, would be huge in an effort to largely sway such votes through disinformation, intimidation, etc.

quote:
How might magic be used to affect a campaign (either to promote a candidate, smear a rival, change the votes, or just earn money)?


It could profoundly affect such an effort. Consider that in 1323 DR, the Year of Dreamwebs,
quote:
...the Zulkir of Enchantment leads an attempt to control the minds of influential people through their dreams. The efforts of the Red Wizards are eventually thwarted.


Though the effort was undone, does not mean the attempt a valid point to consider how such an effort could be utilized in this situation. If Thay for example knew the size of the population, and started with small communities to not arouse significant suspicion at first, that would be a great testing ground to see how such manipulations could be attained. Sending powerful priests into communities disguised as followers of a good faith, so that domination styled magics could be used to control the minds of regular town folk, would be enormously powerful overtime. A perfect spy operation.

The other thing I wanted to mention is that this really gets into some of our discussions regarding governmental and societal ethics. What would facilitate such a change? Considering factors that enrage colonists to revolt against the Crown during the American Revolution, a solid case can be made that given the right conditions, such a revolt could lead to a desire to self-rule. In a world with such common place and powerful magic though, that could be easily swayed. Interesting stuff to consider!

Best regards,

Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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TheIriaeban
Senior Scribe

USA
620 Posts

Posted - 21 Oct 2020 :  21:16:58  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

Bron was "elected" by the people of Iriaebor. He was not what the Merchant Council wanted but the people decided they wanted Bron as Lord of Iriaebor. Here is what is said in FRA:

"Bron came to power through the desperation of the common folk. He was seen as a just, no-nonsense, stubborn fighter for peace and fairness. Iriaebor was then an open battleground between feuding merchant families. Bron opened the coffers of his church and ruthlessly expropriated the wealth of slain merchants to hire an army of experienced warriors. These acted only against the fighting bravos of the merchants and against Zhentarim agents from Darkhold who instigated much of the fighting."



This sounds more like people breaking the system, and not something done following the system. They were desperate, they chose their new leader. But there is no law saying all their leaders should be appointed that way.

Anyways, as for political speeches, Dagult Neverember has a few good ones in the Neverwinter Campaign Setting and in some missions of the MMO.



Yep, that is why I put elected in quotes. But, it was his selection that was done by those outside of the normal, feudal power structure that would be closest to an RW election I could thnk of.

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34594 Posts

Posted - 21 Oct 2020 :  22:09:41  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

I'm going to try and start a conversation here that I hope we can have, but I'm saying up front... Wooly, if it gets out of hand, shut it down. I don't want to talk about Trump, Biden, democrats, republicans, or any of our real world "factions" and their views here. It will turn ugly if we do, because I know some people don't share the views of others here.



And to echo this: Keep current, real-world politics out of this discussion. Feel free to discuss historical political processes IF RELEVANT, but leave off any current stuff. I WILL remove anything pertaining to current real-world politics, particularly any references to any candidates running for any office in the United States.

That said...

I'm not familiar with the Realms having much in the line of popular elections; at most, it seems to be either elections for city councils (and may or may not involve the citizens) or leadership votes within groups -- city councils selecting one of their own as a leader, guilds electing a new guildmaster, that kind of thing.

There's not a huge amount of electioneering that can be done in the Realms, compared to the real world. Speeches and broadsheets, obviously, and likely throwing money around, but mass mailings, other forms of advertisement, traveling the countryside to shake every hand, kiss every baby, and all the rest isn't as likely. It may happen within a city, if there's popular elections, but otherwise, a candidate will just schmooze the particular council people/guild members that they need the support of.



Actually though, and this is kind of what I was hoping to discuss.... magic COULD make some things possible that we don't think about. For instance, a programmed illusion that "loops" a candidate through his speeches periodically. Maybe even something where someone pays someone for "timeslots" that THEIR illusion advertising them for leadership plays for people passing by.

Which speaking on that... let's also open the floor as well to discussions of "magical advertising" and how it might be done in ways that look different from our world.



That kinda thing could be really expensive -- especially since the opposition would be quick to hire a mage to shut it down/alter it.

I'd expect more minor stuff, myself -- maybe a broadsheet that has a minor enchantment to cause it to literally glow or sparkle, drawing attention to itself, or some sort of wearable like a pin or medallion with the candidate's face and maybe a short audio message that can be triggered. These items would not last long, maybe a few days or as long as a week (the 10-day Realms week) before the magic faded.

And yes, that still runs the risk of magical interference -- but in this case, there are a lot more targets, and the impact of countering the advertising would be less.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!

Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 21 Oct 2020 22:10:50
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Azar
Learned Scribe

187 Posts

Posted - 22 Oct 2020 :  01:14:10  Show Profile Send Azar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Illusionists could be in high demand, depending on the nation; they are the Realms' version of electronic advertising, after all.

Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
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cpthero2
Great Reader

USA
2250 Posts

Posted - 22 Oct 2020 :  01:39:30  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader sleyvas,

quote:
Actually though, and this is kind of what I was hoping to discuss.... magic COULD make some things possible that we don't think about. For instance, a programmed illusion that "loops" a candidate through his speeches periodically. Maybe even something where someone pays someone for "timeslots" that THEIR illusion advertising them for leadership plays for people passing by.


I feel you are spot on regarding things that have been overlooked. I really feel it is the epic, boom, moar things that pull people in quickly. However, when you look at the more "mundane" things of illusions being used for advertising, political purposes, etc., it completely makes sense.

I saw Master Rupert discuss the notion of expense. Permanent Image is as Silent Image for material components: a bit of fleece. You create something that is non-aggressive, that doesn't harry people or cause issues, so there is nothing that would cause saves, and good to go. There is always a chance the spell could be dispelled by someone not in favor of the message, but thinking about this in a civic manner, if that was happening in a malevolent/injurious manner, the issue would be taken up with the local constabulary or magistrate to deal with. The cost though in the end would only be to get that illusionist to cast that spell again. Most municipalities have laws on the books about using magic in an injurious manner, whether that be criminal or civil. I feel it would end up being resolved in a pretty reasonable manner in the end, all things considered.

quote:
Which speaking on that... let's also open the floor as well to discussions of "magical advertising" and how it might be done in ways that look different from our world.


I do this in my campaigns. This would just be a thing through use of permanent image and other spells as well. I mean, I don't know how that would be avoided in places like Waterdeep, Westgage, Vaelan, Ormpe, and others of significant trade. It would be insane, and in those larger cities, it is in my campaigns.

Best regards,


Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Kentinal
Great Reader

4565 Posts

Posted - 22 Oct 2020 :  01:51:24  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dispel Magic could be very effective in getting rid "magical advertising".

At some point I would suspect that some rules would also be developed concerning use of such magic.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7377 Posts

Posted - 22 Oct 2020 :  02:15:12  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dispel magic isn't very effective when it's contesting magics cast by someone much higher level. Or used against magics which are hardened against disenchantments. Or not used at all because no apparent need vs disguised and concealed magics. Part of the reason why powerful spellcasters use many layers of magical protection. Part of the reason why powerful people hire powerful spellcasters to protect them.

It's also not something you can casually cast on everyone you meet. Uninvited spellcasting is basically a form of attack, even if it fails or has no apparent effect the target can never be certain that you didn't try to charm or curse them, that you didn't try to turn them into a newt.

Even if there aren't any laws or rules against dispel magic there's still the very real response of alertly suspicious targets (or their bodyguards) interrupting your "attack" with drawn steel. "Wanna see a magic trick?" only fools the childishly trusting in a world filled with assassins, necromancers, dark elves, dark priests, and dark gods - savvy people are wary and intolerant of magical threats, they proactively don't make themselves easy victims.

Illusion magic is not about creating things which are always false. Known to be false. Cast by an illusionist and so known to be mere illusions lacking much real threat or substance.

Illusion magic is about deception, creating things which are falsely perceived. Often things which can be harmlessly disbelieved. But the whole threat of successful illusion is that the target can just never know what is and isn't real. Plus the illusionist can still cast a whole arsenal of non-illusion magics. You don't automatically walk through a fireball cast by a gnome - confident in the knowledge that he must be an illusionist and therefore must not be able to cast such evocations - because you could be fatally wrong. Because it could be another magic disguised as a fireball. It could actually be a real fireball cast by someone misleading you into thinking he's an illusionist.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 22 Oct 2020 02:40:59
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cpthero2
Great Reader

USA
2250 Posts

Posted - 22 Oct 2020 :  05:28:08  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader Ayrik,

quote:
Illusion magic is not about creating things which are always false.


Agreed. The impetus in D&D being combat, is easily seen in the combat focus of spells. That issue has been addressed by the increase in spells over the years with non-combat functions, but I think the culture of D&D still pushes the combat.

Using a permanent image could also be great as a means to intimidate someone by perhaps showing the last victim in a series of murders killed with the understanding that the next victim knows they are next and this is a very public warning. Many options exist for such amazing use of illusion spells.

Best regards,

Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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sfdragon
Great Reader

2279 Posts

Posted - 22 Oct 2020 :  05:34:04  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think the hidden lords of waterdeep are nominated by a list and chosen by the openlord when one dies/retires/stepsdown, and the council of Hidden Lords chose the open lord from their ranks when said open lord dies/retires/resigns/gets fired( looking at you Lord Neverember)/etc...

SO this group is who you know....

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234
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cpthero2
Great Reader

USA
2250 Posts

Posted - 22 Oct 2020 :  05:54:06  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader sfdragon,

That is one of the only few groups I can think of that have an electoral process, even if it is just internal, haha. Good catch on that one.

Best regards,



Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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cpthero2
Great Reader

USA
2250 Posts

Posted - 22 Oct 2020 :  05:56:44  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader sleyvas,

Actually, after a little digging around, I discovered this gem for an actual electoral process, albeit for a gold dragon society, but it is still Realms. ;)

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/King_of_Justice

Best regards,

Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
10017 Posts

Posted - 22 Oct 2020 :  14:22:28  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Dispel magic isn't very effective when it's contesting magics cast by someone much higher level. Or used against magics which are hardened against disenchantments. Or not used at all because no apparent need vs disguised and concealed magics. Part of the reason why powerful spellcasters use many layers of magical protection. Part of the reason why powerful people hire powerful spellcasters to protect them.

It's also not something you can casually cast on everyone you meet. Uninvited spellcasting is basically a form of attack, even if it fails or has no apparent effect the target can never be certain that you didn't try to charm or curse them, that you didn't try to turn them into a newt.

Even if there aren't any laws or rules against dispel magic there's still the very real response of alertly suspicious targets (or their bodyguards) interrupting your "attack" with drawn steel. "Wanna see a magic trick?" only fools the childishly trusting in a world filled with assassins, necromancers, dark elves, dark priests, and dark gods - savvy people are wary and intolerant of magical threats, they proactively don't make themselves easy victims.

Illusion magic is not about creating things which are always false. Known to be false. Cast by an illusionist and so known to be mere illusions lacking much real threat or substance.

Illusion magic is about deception, creating things which are falsely perceived. Often things which can be harmlessly disbelieved. But the whole threat of successful illusion is that the target can just never know what is and isn't real. Plus the illusionist can still cast a whole arsenal of non-illusion magics. You don't automatically walk through a fireball cast by a gnome - confident in the knowledge that he must be an illusionist and therefore must not be able to cast such evocations - because you could be fatally wrong. Because it could be another magic disguised as a fireball. It could actually be a real fireball cast by someone misleading you into thinking he's an illusionist.



hmm, this kind of made me think on something else with the programmed/permanent illusion for advertising that I was talking about. This used to be fairly simple spells for someone of high enough level in the past. If the electorate has a "friend" they might be getting it done on the cheap (or even free if THEY are a wizard). Such things obviously are not attacks, and most people would regard them like we do with moving billboards. However, I was picturing you know...the actual guy trying to be elected and it showing him talking.

While such things CAN be removed, that's something that involves bringing in a wizard to do it. It can also generate bad will between the wizards involved. Money isn't everything, and in some cases, wizards may not WANT to step on the toes of another wizard who puts up advertising. This may be because they want to get into advertising too and don't want THEIR stuff being taken down in reverse. Not saying it won't happen, and there may start to be "advertising laws" put on the books to control wizards going overboard (or requiring wizards who put up advertising to pay a tax to the governing body).

Perhaps some twists on this as well, rather than tearing down the other illusion would be to put a second illusion that interacts with the first. For instance, putting a talking butt face (to be gross) over the face of the other illusion. Also, political satire "comics" .... as in cartoonized versions of people doing comical things... might start to appear as "attack ads". Also, while I'm thinking about "moving" illusions.... actual comic strip like illusions that might be placed on the side of buildings (you know, panels, word bubbles, etc..) that don't move and people would have to read should be a fairly easy low level implementation (for instance with a minor illusion cantrip... how long do those last... should look that up). I could see wizard's academies possibly hiring out apprentices who are still learning how to cast to do this kind of work just to make them train and make some money.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 22 Oct 2020 14:36:51
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7377 Posts

Posted - 22 Oct 2020 :  15:15:57  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, I guess the point I was trying to make is that - regardless what I think, regardless what you think, regardless of the teachings from our cultural indoctrination - democracy is just not the best system of government for every society. Democracy is in fact a minority if you count how many countries or how many people live in democratic societies vs how many do not. Indeed, it's had a rather dismal showing across most of recorded history.

No democracy means no votes, no elections, none of the circus show attached to those elections, none of the posturing and promises by politicians trying to edge each other out of the way.

In most systems of government there are people in charge and they ensure that they stay in charge. They always have somebody else to take the blame when things go wrong. They don't tolerate elections which can install people who challenge their positions - letting the village vote for their mayor or sheriff is fine, but a system which can remove powerful people from power is not tolerated.

Medieval feudalism lasted a thousand years because it worked. The democratic (and socialist) governments which replaced it were only installed after centuries of bloody revolts and civil wars. "The people" themselves were often divided, unable as a society to accept to crazy new notion of governance without some kind of lord or king or elite caste who were bred and destined to rule.

Look at how many other things are "popular" but are not at all worthy of the popularity. They're garbage. Or they're even polluted by their popularity. Extend that idea to a system of governance where leaders are chosen on a basis of numerical popularity.

Extend it further into the Realms. Where any powerful character could install himself into power. Where power is not just measured in the usual terms of reputation and money but in actual raw damage - individuals in the Realms can accomplish things individuals in our world cannot, they can singlehandedly destroy armies and castles, they can slay giants and dragons, they can bring angels and demons to their knees, etc.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 22 Oct 2020 15:26:50
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Mrestos Khorvaen
Acolyte

Spain
48 Posts

Posted - 22 Oct 2020 :  15:59:52  Show Profile Send Mrestos Khorvaen a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think Turmish is the most democratic country in the realms.
I suppose places like Sembia (despite being a "kingdom") have some sort of suffrage, but limited to citizens with properties or enough wealth.
Probably public speeches are made at special places were the orator can't use charm magic to influence public opinion.
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cpthero2
Great Reader

USA
2250 Posts

Posted - 22 Oct 2020 :  17:17:23  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader Ayrik,

I think I may take your entire quote here and have it be an opening excerpt for the "bible" of Bane! hahaha

Out of curiosity, when I took note that you said, "Extend it to the Realms", it clearly puts a point of delineation between that and what came before, and therefore appears to indicate that you may have a preference towards a more medieval style form of government. Do you feel that style is better?

Best regards,



Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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