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First off, allow me to say that reading Starlight Enclave does have an upside, the last quarter is far better than the first 3/4ths. That being said, the first 3/4ths is some of Salvatore's worst writing to date.

The best thing that I can say about Starlight Enclave is that it's boring. It's flat, uninteresting, lacking in much to comment on. I'd engage in exhaustive discussions about each book, jotting down notes during my readthrough about specific tidbits to talk about. Going over my notes this time, I found that I took significantly fewer. On the whole, it's more insipid than the bland food that Catti-brie conjures with her magic. It's exhausting to read, as the writing is both bad and banal. Salvatore has never been the pinnacle of literature, but even for him, this book is lazy. It definitely doesn't feel like the work of a professional author, and not just because of the numerous grammatical errors, insipid turns of phrase, uninspired analogies and dull imagery. In addition to the myriad examples of what I've dubbed "Salvatorisms" -- negative writing quirks belonging to this author that repeat entirely too frequently -- there seems to be an intent to compound those existing negatives with new ones. For instance, the words "fine" and "magnificent" are once again way too overused, but spamming the word "marvelous" in addition doesn't make the former two words less repetitive. The overuse of rocking back onto one's heels isn't helped by rocking back in chairs or anything else. I mean, have you ever actually seen anyone rock back onto their heels, especially expert fighters who are supposed to be masters of balance? Stating "how" something performs an action, such as, "how clumsy and slow it appeared" and "how unusual it was to see both of his eyes", still doesn't, after all this time, actually convey much of anything. Its clearly supposed to provide some emphasis, however after the third of so instance, it begins to feel like Salvatore's characters are weebles that wobble and don't fall down. Then we have the rote analogies like, "silent as shadows" and "silent as death", descriptions that are overused, convey very little, and more befit the type of fanfiction authors that give that genre a bad name.

There's so much telling instead of showing, and when there is an attempt to show, it typically doesn't work. For instance, there's more chemistry going on in a glass of sterile water than between Zaknafein and Azzudonna despite the two supposedly having sparks flying between them from the first time that they meet. The action scenes, be they fight scenes or sport scenes, are tedious, with more words than clarity about what is actually happening. If there is an attempt made in real life to actually map out what the book indicates as masterful combat maneuvers, well... let's just say that the attempt would be far more engaging and amusing than the book itself. There are ridiculous details that betray a lack of scientific knowledge, such as ice ever being as good as metal as a material for weapons (it's not just about hardness and brittleness, there are things like deformation indices, but hey, ya know... magic?). There's tiresome repetition, especially when it seems like there has to be some grand event in every book, in this case all of Callidae channeling their voice into Azzudonna to pour into Zak, very akin to how all of Menzoberranzan channeled its power into Drizzt to strike down Demogorgon. But, fundamentally, these are just technical issues that can be forgiven and overlooked. Ultimately, they don't harm anything aside from the quality of the text in which they appear.

What is more harmful though are the problematic portrayals of important topics in this book. Salvatore has never been good at philosophy, and, despite being about a character who defies the traditions of his culture, the Drizzt books have never been progressive. With society's growing awareness of problematic D&D tropes, especially with the drow, there's been a lot of publicity about Salvatore wanting to take a different tack, and about Starlight Enclave being the first to present this new tack. However, what Salvatore ends up doing is at most a token effort, just enough to be able to claim to be "woke" without actually addressing the inherent issues in a portrayal that he himself played a central part in establishing. One of the main premises of Starlight Enclave is that the drow as we know them -- evil, cruel, self-centered, immoral, brutal -- aren't all like that, and that all this time, there's been this secret group of drow that no one knows about that aren't evil. Fundamentally what had been an unwise design decision made decades ago which might not have even had any real world racist intentions, led to what it is today. It's good that the franchise recognizes that what they've done can be seen as racist, but arbitrarily inventing "untainted" versions of the same race as the "tainted" people is not a well-thought approach. Not only doesn't this really address the issue, it actually exacerbates it.

Salvatore's answer to the evil black-skinned misandrist matriarchy is to create a society that is perfect to a ridiculous degree. Callidae, the northern paradise that is Salvatore's answer to the problematic portrayal of drow, is harmonious in such a trite way and to such a mechanical degree that all fifty thousand of its citizens unite in one voice spontaneously. The concept of currency is so foreign in Callidae that its citizens have no idea of what money means. This idealism extends to their non-sentient citizens as well, for while the Callidaens consume animal products, none of it is harvested by killing any animals; they've perfected magic to such a point that they can perfectly replicate meat, skins, and anything that is conventionally acquired from slaughtering an animal. Want steak? No problem, magic! Want extra fat in that steak? No problem, magic! Want tail steak? No problem magic! Sure, it's a magical fantasy world, but even still, Callidae is unrealistic in its perfection. Furthermore, the feeling that it gives is that it's an over-compensatory attempt at offsetting how, for so long, it was ok to treat an entire race as monolithically evil. This isn't to mention that if the whole point of the creation of these so-called aevendrow is to address the Lolthite drow - now called udadrow -- problem, then why do so with a society that is so over the top, so completely unattainable in reality? Add into that point the fact that all of a sudden, now apparently dark gray is the defining skin color of drowkind, even though in the past it was explicitly stated as black, ebony, obsidian, etc. The aevendrow all have varying shades of dark gray skin, yet the skin colors of the drow that we've known, the ones described as having black skin in the past, are conveniently not described. What's the point of arbitrarily inventing these "better drow" then, if you're just going to then go like, "but they aren't black at all", and imply that the other drow were never black despite being explicitly stated as being so in the past? I mean, it's a great way to make the world that you're writing in worse, which Salvatore has free reign to do now with WotC declaring that the novels aren't canon to the RPG.

Salvatore might as well be writing FR fanfiction, as he always has been to some degree with how much he ignores the canon of the shared world. Now, it's just official, and it might seem like a good thing, but consider this: Salvatore's own DemonWars books are nowhere as popular as his books written in a world that was put together by many creatives. Why do you think that might be? Sure, he makes references to D&D spells and mechanics, but he also creates a bunch of ridiculously overpowered items, spells and mechanics, and frequently violates established mechanics with the spells he does cherry pick from D&D (Word of recall without a shrine or consecrated area anyone?). The newer Drizzt books not be marked with the Forgotten Realms logo, but the Dungeons & Dragons logo still appears on their covers. It might not be D&D canon, but what Starlight Enclave conveys to readers unfamiliar with D&D is that the game is full of Mary Sues and there's all of these crazy powerful magic items, which aren't actually accessible to players. Are the people who find these kinds of things attractive really the sort of people that D&D wants to attract? If so, there might be a lot of unhappy new D&Ders, as the plot armor of Salvatore's characters allows them to triumph in situations that would TPK any RAW/RAI standard party in a heartbeat.

Returning to the whole "fixing" the drow problem and how badly it is handled in Starlight Enclave, one way that Salvatore tries to absolve the udadrow of their sin is by blaming it on religion. He lectures about how religion is awful and gods get people to do what they want to do through fear primarily. Drizzt, the golden boy and exemplar of all that is good and correct, lectures about it, renounces it, and as if that's not enough, other characters, including Kimmuriel, whom Salvatore takes time to point out several times is an intellectual and so different from Drizzt, join in the renouncing. The entire point of having Catti-brie join Jarlaxle's expedition to the north, despite all the posturing about needing her magic, appears to be to "fix" her Mielikki-given view that all goblinkind are evil. So, from these elements, the reader is supposed to derive that religion is bad and is the thing to blame for the udadrow being evil. But then, there are other situations that beg the question of if the author is even aware that he's doing it, because religion, in the form of what many of us know as "you're going to hell unless you do x", is used as a plot device to force character change and do it quickly. Artemis Entreri is pushed down his path of "redemption" by being shown what waits him in supposed eternity if he doesn't "redeem" himself. Entreri is a character who has been used as the de facto evil reference whenever one of the "goodly" characters needed one to cite. Of course, none of the "goodly" characters need religion or gods, but ones that aren't good, like Entreri, like the drow, do. So then, this group of people were bad because religion made them bad, but religion is bad, yet religion is also what made an irredeemable character not bad anymore, but none of the good guys need religion and in some cases religion is bad for the good guys? The message is befuddled, inconsistent, and perhaps even hypocritical.

There's a lot of pages dedicated to entirely too overt mentions of racism. It's extremely unnatural and totally forced. Reading these portrayals feels very much like explaining to an ignorant redneck who asked me what I am that I'm American and that "my country" is America. Drizzt's lectures about racism are painfully the words of a privileged white man who doesn't have the first bit of experience in what it's like to live in institutionalized racism. It's frustratingly obvious that no BIPOC was consulted for this book, and if they were, their words weren't listened to, which frankly makes it offensive that it seeks to lecture others about racism. If that wasn't the case, Drizzt wouldn't be asking a question like, “What purpose, I wonder, has the road I have walked and the road I walk now— or that you would have me walk now— if any steps forward are fleeting, if at the end, there can be no peace?” As any BIPOC or marginalized group knows, it's not about peace, although certainly peace would be nice. It's about being treated equally. It's about having the same rights as others regardless of skin color, and there can be no peace as long as those rights do not exist. Peace is something that we know only in conjunction with oppression. Peace without oppression is something experienced by the privileged and unmarginalized. By the same token, if Drizzt truly understood what it means to be marginalized, he wouldn't be spouting about his fight for "justice" by saying things like, “And the point of it all if that road winds into nothing but a circle”. This is clear as the EXPERIENCE of INDIVIDUALS matters, even if the global result is that the current gestalt loops back into a circle, some have been enlightened and others saved, opening up the path to improvement. And, of course, there's a great deal of irony, in how the humans of the perfect drow society of Callidae are described as having "flat" faces. Had BIPOCs been consulted, perhaps Salvatore would've learned that "flat face" is a derogatory descriptor used for certain sub-groups, and that many children of those groups grow up being relentlessly bullied for their "flat faces". The argument that there aren't other words to describe a face like that is not valid, simply googling "ways to describe a face" turns up a lot of results that do not include "flat", not to mention that no face is actually flat and it's just an offensive phrase.

The Drizzt books have an extensive history of poor treatment of LGBT+ people and traits. Worse than erasure, they frequently included LGBT+ only in fetishizing contexts, by having the only characters demonstrably LGBT+ be exclusively women whom inexplicably have sex with each other totally without relation to the plot. More recently, a non-cisgender heterosexual male character finally makes an appearance, but in the first book that explicitly states his sexuality, he's summarily killed off. It doesn't matter that Starlight Enclave attempts to romanticize it by having him sacrifice himself to save Drizzt and also implying that him passing on allows him to be with his partner. It is a textbook Bury Your Gays trope, and it's depressing especially as Salvatore can't seem to let go of needing to perpetuate the 80s trope of fetishizing sapphic interactions to titillate certain reader groups, even though it's freaking 2021. While there isn't a lesbian sex scene in Starlight Enclave, a wrestling match between two female drow is metaphorically compared to rutting elk, which makes zero sense as the two women came together and locked arms, more similar to two male deer locking horns in a contest for territory and mates. While deer certainly do that to compete for the right to copulate, they aren't copulating when they're fighting, or at least I'd hope that Salvatore knows that's not what's going on when two male elk lock antlers. Then again, I can't be sure, as based on how he writes Zaknafein parrying a club by tapping on it repeatedly, I honestly don't know if he understands how things work, or how things don't work as the case might be.

Finally, the subject of "redemption", which Salvatore seems entirely too fixated upon while apparently possessing a rather narcissistic definition of what it means. Redemption stories are popular, but they're also horrifically overdone, and prone to being done badly. What Salvatore does with it is worse than Blizzard's Sylvannas redemption arc. Entreri and Doum'wielle certainly have things that they could atone for, but "redemption" in the context of the Drizzt books seems to mean becoming more like Drizzt and the Companions of the Hall. "Redemption" is less about making amends, and more about conformation. In Entreri's case, apparently it means that someone who was sold as a child by his mother to an adult whom repeatedly molested him, who grew up without trust or love and with expertise at murder as his only metric of self-worth, who spent over seven decades as a slave, has to become besties as quickly as possible with the very people who had deemed themselves worthy of deciding his fate while assuming they knew everything about his background. He isn't worth anything unless he becomes just like them and would sacrifice everything without thought to protect them. "Redemption" in the Drizzt books apparently means to wantonly change everything about yourself for the sake of Drizzt and his companions, to suddenly abandon trust issues founded on a long life of painful experiences, to speak of deepest traumas before an assembly as strangers despite only having been able to talk of it to a single loved one in the past.

I honestly don't know why anyone would want this, as Entreri has become a less and less interesting character with each book. In a way, he's back to being what he was when we first meet him, back then he was likened to the Lolthite drow, now he might as well be a CotH clone, not really standing out from certain groups of people aside from his skill, which in Salvatore's world in shockingly common. Frankly it seems like every community has at least a few dozen highly-skilled folks, sometimes just hanging around in taverns. Indeed, a big part of what makes Starlight Enclave so flat and uninteresting is that the characters have what in art is called sameface syndrome. It doesn't matter that the text tells us that Jarlaxle is clever or that Entreri is being sarcastic, in the end, those become tiny insignificant details when all share the same core tenets. After all, we quickly realize that they'll give everything to help Drizzt and do everything they can to emulate Drizzt. Even Kimmuriel, the psionicist with the almost alien mindset, is not spared this treatment. Salvatore asserts that Entreri has "grown in soul", but what I see is the greatest tragedy done to a character in years.

I suspect that Salvatore stumbled onto Entreri by accident and was surprised by how popular he'd become, but instead of taking the opportunity to learn, research and consult about how to develop such a character that resonated so much with those that felt alienated by Drizzt, he instead took the lazy route and bent Entreri into the only thing that he apparently knows how to write. I could go on for pages about how damaging the message conveyed with Entreri's "redemption" is to readers with their real life traumas, but I don't have pages, not here anyway, so I'll just leave it at this: even within Starlight Enclave, Entreri's character isn't consistent, and I don't mean about how he never had Khazid'hea but it's apparently canon now that he had. Please, Bob, consult people with the appropriate experience. You can't make this stuff up. If you're going to write about it, you owe it to your readers to do it well. I suspect that my entreaty will fall on deaf ears, as there's a section of the book dedicated to lecturing about how intent matters. It's so meta, and so pathetically transparent. Yes, intention matters, but it can't be the end-all that the lecture wishes it is, it can't even be a significant factor in the consideration of the most important matters. In those matters, execution is important. If I hit someone with my car, regardless of if I meant to or not, I'd still be going to jail for a very long time, which is as it should be. Intent matters, but what comes of it matters so much more.

There are some positives. I've noted down all of them in a more comprehensive review that I will write for my blog. I will commend Salvatore for specifying that Entreri's skin is brown, going so far as to even have another character consider it more beautiful than Catti-brie's skin. This is no small feat, as the color of Entreri's skin is a detail that's been brushed under the rug, due to the unpopularity of non-white skin and the islamophobia going about in the past years. Good for you for standing up against that, Bob. But seriously, why does the lady that Zak takes a fancy to have to be the only one they meet with purple eyes like Drizzt's? That's really creepy, man, and I don't know that starting down a path of "the best drow are purple-eyed drow" is something you'd want to do.

I really wanted to like this book. I strongly wished that the start of yet another trilogy in this too-long series would kick off something promising. Sadly, basically everything that this novel tries to accomplish fails, and fails spectacularly. It's the worst yet in a trend of disasters that has been every new Drizzt book such that I don't know why I continue to hold out hope that each new installment will be any different. I doggedly read each new book because of something within them that was important to me, and like the many I've met and united in a growing community, we each desperately hold onto the hope that what's important to us wouldn't be too trodden over. Sadly, with each new release, there are fewer of us that read it.

The last thing I'd like to comment on is unrelated to the contents of the book, but related to the book itself: What in all the gods' name is up with the cover? The type setting looks like the result of a rushed grade school project, and the art isn't much better. Which screencap of Katniss did it rip off from, and how lazy can you get with Entreri's armor? It's also blatantly obvious that the artist shied away from including any drow, despite TWO of them being a major part of the book and together with at least as much presence as the two humans who are depicted. For the love of dog and all that is holy, I'd be willing to do covers for free, if it means avoiding the train wreck that is this cover. I seriously mean it -- Harper Voyager/Bob, hit me up, you know where to find me.

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Originally posted by sno4wy

There's so much telling instead of showing, and when there is an attempt to show, it typically doesn't work. For instance, there's more chemistry going on in a glass of sterile water than between Zaknafein and Azzudonna despite the two supposedly having sparks flying between them from the first time that they meet. The action scenes, be they fight scenes or sport scenes, are tedious, with more words than clarity about what is actually happening. If there is an attempt made in real life to actually map out what the book indicates as masterful combat maneuvers, well... let's just say that the attempt would be far more engaging and amusing than the book itself.

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Originally posted by sno4wy

There are ridiculous details that betray a lack of scientific knowledge, such as ice ever being as good as metal as a material for weapons (it's not just about hardness and brittleness, there are things like deformation indices, but hey, ya know... magic?).

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Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Your review basically confirms what I have been saying about RAS' portrayal of religion for a while now. Sure, it can corrupt (Lolth), but RAS essentially portrays all of it as bad (look at Mielikki). This is just as problematic as the racist tropes he supposedly insists he is getting rid of. And on top of that--he whines on Twitter that the FR gods are just beings that hand out pamphlets to the afterlife, and yet then shows Entreri his fate in hell. I want Entreri to have a good afterlife,..but, seriously, Bob, which is it? He's a bitter non-Catholic who still projects Catholic views into a fictional world where there are plenty of afterlife options, then whines about the religions. Why write in the Realms, dude?

Was the non-cis character new? He is seriously killed off in the first book? Who was his partner? This also goes back to the afterlife thing I mentioned. Sometimes, you can have an afterlife without deities (and in some settings, the presence of deities doesn't mean an afterlife), but they are usually synonymous. I am glad Bob (kind of?) implies there is an afterlife, but at the same time, there is the "I don't know" element, which doesn't work for the Realms.

I don't think I will be reading this book, at least not any time soon, so feel free to hit me with spoilers lol.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I actually tried that, once. I took some action figures and tried to recreate a fight scene, exactly as it was described, and I couldn't do it. There were multiple cases of maneuver B immediately following maneuver A, even when it didn't make sense, or people suddenly going from one position to another. I don't remember specifics, but it was things like blocking a low attack at the legs and countering with a downward chop at the head, or being off-balance and stumbling backward and then immediately gracefully sidestepping an attack, or things like that.

I tried, I reread the descriptions, I tried repositioning the figures -- I just couldn't make it happen as described.

One maneuver in particular, I recall -- the thing where Zak was training Drizzt and insisted that crossing the swords low was the only possible counter for a double-thrust at the legs. Drizzt kept thinking the maneuver was missing something, and then proved it -- by crossing the swords low and then kicking between them. I simply do not see how that it's possible to hold that counter *and* make an effective kick, especially without telegraphing it enough to give the other person a chance to back off.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Ice weapons are not a new concept. I personally like the idea, and assume that whatever magic keeps the ice from melting also gives it metallic qualities. I've often seen glass given the same treatment, in fantasy.

So I personally would give a pass, but I'm not going to argue the matter if anyone disagrees. It's a YMMV thing.

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Originally posted by sno4wy

I always boggle at people who praise Bob's fight scenes and talk about how vivid they are. I'm pretty sure that those people aren't actually reading what's going on, and just think that they are by focusing on the directional words like left, right, etc. That, or they're reading those scenes while high, in which case I sure would like whatever they're on.

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Originally posted by sno4wy

I getcha! What annoyed me about it was how the characters went on and on about how much better their special ice is than metal as a weapon BEFORE magic's applied to it.

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Originally posted by sno4wy

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Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Your review basically confirms what I have been saying about RAS' portrayal of religion for a while now. Sure, it can corrupt (Lolth), but RAS essentially portrays all of it as bad (look at Mielikki). This is just as problematic as the racist tropes he supposedly insists he is getting rid of. And on top of that--he whines on Twitter that the FR gods are just beings that hand out pamphlets to the afterlife, and yet then shows Entreri his fate in hell. I want Entreri to have a good afterlife,..but, seriously, Bob, which is it? He's a bitter non-Catholic who still projects Catholic views into a fictional world where there are plenty of afterlife options, then whines about the religions. Why write in the Realms, dude?

Was the non-cis character new? He is seriously killed off in the first book? Who was his partner? This also goes back to the afterlife thing I mentioned. Sometimes, you can have an afterlife without deities (and in some settings, the presence of deities doesn't mean an afterlife), but they are usually synonymous. I am glad Bob (kind of?) implies there is an afterlife, but at the same time, there is the "I don't know" element, which doesn't work for the Realms.

I don't think I will be reading this book, at least not any time soon, so feel free to hit me with spoilers lol.

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There isn't a non-cis character, I don't think Bob's capable of that. I was spelling out "cishet" and the character I was referring to was Afrafrenfere.

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Originally posted by sno4wy
[Review]

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Originally posted by Irennan

No, it wouldn't. He stated to be the one behind this. He said that this has "always" been his vision, that he met with WotC 5 years ago and got greenlit to do this.

If anything, he can cater very well to the crowd (Drizzt is peak catering to the crowd, it's where its success come from), but his worldbuilding, characterization, and writing itself leave much to be desired.

His readers are likely to still buy whatever he writes and to give him positive reviews, so I personally can't see this influencing the novel line, since the audience for the novel line currently coincides with RAS' audience, and they will keep buying.

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Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Ah, apologies, I misunderstood. I thought it might be Afrafrenfere, but I was confused for a moment. So it was confirmed he indeed died during the Transendence incident?

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Originally posted by Irennan
One question: did RAS bother explaining why these new drow civilizations, that (combined) outnumber the Lolthites at a ratio like 4:1, decided to hide? Was it just fear that the the other uncivilized cultures would see their awesome utopia and try to tear it down?

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Originally posted by sno4wy

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Originally posted by Irennan
One question: did RAS bother explaining why these new drow civilizations, that (combined) outnumber the Lolthites at a ratio like 4:1, decided to hide? Was it just fear that the the other uncivilized cultures would see their awesome utopia and try to tear it down?

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Basically, they decided that everything outside of their civilization weren't worth having and that those things only posed a danger to them. They had everything they need from within their own place.

Which is honestly ludicrous, especially for the thousands of years that they're supposed to have done this. To give one of many examples from our history in which turning insular led to a civilization's downfall in pretty quick order.

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Originally posted by Kentinal
An interesting answer. In part we are better then all others, however need to hide from all others. Though to maintain their secret they would need to prevent any other entering the area and leaving it to talk about it. The regions did not sound like they provide all resources for an total trade free existence.

I agree it makes no logical sense two such groups could remain unknown. The areas might have become "dark" areas where people disappear into. However even then some nations clearly would become involved to resolve the problem, there would be survivors. Even Evermeet is known about, protected as much as it is, few could find it to visit --- however it was known about (It could not remain hidden for many thousand years).

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Originally posted by sno4wy

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Originally posted by Kentinal
An interesting answer. In part we are better then all others, however need to hide from all others. Though to maintain their secret they would need to prevent any other entering the area and leaving it to talk about it. The regions did not sound like they provide all resources for an total trade free existence.

I agree it makes no logical sense two such groups could remain unknown. The areas might have become "dark" areas where people disappear into. However even then some nations clearly would become involved to resolve the problem, there would be survivors. Even Evermeet is known about, protected as much as it is, few could find it to visit --- however it was known about (It could not remain hidden for many thousand years).

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The explanation that's given is that the aevendrow prevents outsiders from knowing about their city by erasing the memories of visitors who choose to leave.

As for acquiring the resources they need, much of it is explained away by "because magic", and then there's some handwavy stuff about how they've rescued other civilizations in the area, incorporating them and their ways and in the process becoming more resourceful. It's worth noting that their natural enemies in the area - giants, polar worms, and slaadi (for some reason) all know about them, but these creatures aren't considered a threat insofar as spreading knowledge about their secret city is concerned.

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Originally posted by sno4wy


The explanation that's given is that the aevendrow prevents outsiders from knowing about their city by erasing the memories of visitors who choose to leave.

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Originally posted by sno4wy

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Originally posted by sno4wy

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Originally posted by Kentinal
An interesting answer. In part we are better then all others, however need to hide from all others. Though to maintain their secret they would need to prevent any other entering the area and leaving it to talk about it. The regions did not sound like they provide all resources for an total trade free existence.

I agree it makes no logical sense two such groups could remain unknown. The areas might have become "dark" areas where people disappear into. However even then some nations clearly would become involved to resolve the problem, there would be survivors. Even Evermeet is known about, protected as much as it is, few could find it to visit --- however it was known about (It could not remain hidden for many thousand years).

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The explanation that's given is that the aevendrow prevents outsiders from knowing about their city by erasing the memories of visitors who choose to leave.

As for acquiring the resources they need, much of it is explained away by "because magic", and then there's some handwavy stuff about how they've rescued other civilizations in the area, incorporating them and their ways and in the process becoming more resourceful. It's worth noting that their natural enemies in the area - giants, polar worms, and slaadi (for some reason) all know about them, but these creatures aren't considered a threat insofar as spreading knowledge about their secret city is concerned.

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Did I mention that at the end of the book the protagonists encounter literally a slaadi god? Because yeah, they do, they run into Ygorl and are entrapped by him.

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Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

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Originally posted by sno4wy

Did I mention that at the end of the book the protagonists encounter literally a slaadi god? Because yeah, they do, they run into Ygorl and are entrapped by him.

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Let me guess, this is another RAS example of "see how gods are bad"? Drizzt will defeat him with his non-theist goodness.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by sno4wy


The explanation that's given is that the aevendrow prevents outsiders from knowing about their city by erasing the memories of visitors who choose to leave.

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That's it? What about people that find the city on their own? What keeps someone from seeing this unknown city on the horizon, thinking there might be a reason it's unknown, and then hightailing it out of there and spreading the word?

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That's it? What about people that find the city on their own? What keeps someone from seeing this unknown city on the horizon, thinking there might be a reason it's unknown, and then hightailing it out of there and spreading the word?

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Originally posted by Baltas

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Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Let me guess, this is another RAS example of "see how gods are bad"? Drizzt will defeat him with his non-theist goodness.

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Ygorl isn't exactly a god though - he's the equivalent of an Archfiend or Celestial Paragon, with 4E also describing him as a Primordial.

Curriously, it's not the first time R.A. Salvatore uses Ygorl - he also used him in Demon Stone (a video game, but story written by R.A. Salvatore), were yes, he ended up punched out/defeated by the main characters - he might want to recycle some story points...

That, or he "likes" Ygorl.

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quote:

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Originally posted by sno4wy

quote:

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That's it? What about people that find the city on their own? What keeps someone from seeing this unknown city on the horizon, thinking there might be a reason it's unknown, and then hightailing it out of there and spreading the word?

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It's hidden deep in ice, and when people do see it, they always get captured by roamers and taken to the city to evaluate. ¯\_('')_/¯

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quote:

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
So the good drow living in this utopian city kidnap people for coming too close? Do they wipe their memories, too, involuntarily, or imprison the people forever?

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quote:

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Originally posted by sno4wy

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Originally posted by Irennan
One question: did RAS bother explaining why these new drow civilizations, that (combined) outnumber the Lolthites at a ratio like 4:1, decided to hide? Was it just fear that the the other uncivilized cultures would see their awesome utopia and try to tear it down?

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Basically, they decided that everything outside of their civilization weren't worth having and that those things only posed a danger to them. They had everything they need from within their own place.

Which is honestly ludicrous, especially for the thousands of years that they're supposed to have done this. To give one of many examples from our history in which turning insular led to a civilization's downfall in pretty quick order.

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quote:

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Originally posted by sno4wy

quote:

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
So the good drow living in this utopian city kidnap people for coming too close? Do they wipe their memories, too, involuntarily, or imprison the people forever?

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Basically, yeah. Jarlaxle, Catti-brie, Zaknafein and Entreri wander too close and they're met with armed guards from Callidae, whom escort them to be questioned and then put under watch. They're not allowed to leave without getting their memories of the place wiped.

Visitors are allowed to stay if they're deemed non-malicious, but anyone who wants to leave gets their memories wiped. Non-cooperative people are imprisoned, and those deemed malicious are executed via exposure to the arctic conditions (or kicked off a cliff). The four protags were actually subject to this after they accidentally brought in the chaos phage, those goodly utopian drow were very quick to go from "welcome guests" to "any last words?"

The involuntary nature of the memory erasure is heavily romanticized with how wonderful Callidae is -- it's so great that all who pass through would willingly give up their memories to protect it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by sno4wy

quote:

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
So the good drow living in this utopian city kidnap people for coming too close? Do they wipe their memories, too, involuntarily, or imprison the people forever?

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Basically, yeah. Jarlaxle, Catti-brie, Zaknafein and Entreri wander too close and they're met with armed guards from Callidae, whom escort them to be questioned and then put under watch. They're not allowed to leave without getting their memories of the place wiped.

Visitors are allowed to stay if they're deemed non-malicious, but anyone who wants to leave gets their memories wiped. Non-cooperative people are imprisoned, and those deemed malicious are executed via exposure to the arctic conditions (or kicked off a cliff). The four protags were actually subject to this after they accidentally brought in the chaos phage, those goodly utopian drow were very quick to go from "welcome guests" to "any last words?"

The involuntary nature of the memory erasure is heavily romanticized with how wonderful Callidae is -- it's so great that all who pass through would willingly give up their memories to protect it.

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