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Seethyr
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Posted - 12 Oct 2020 :  18:07:22  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
These eel like creatures were first described, I believe in the 2e books about the sahuagin from 2e (Evil Tide, Night of the Shark, Sea of Blood, the Sea Devils), then brought back in to 3e with Stormwrack.

I just read Sea of Blood for some light reading and found out some weird lore.

First off, the eelfolk had a god that they tried to birth into a mortal body named Aguillesius (or something like that) and here is the kicker...

When elves foiled this plot (prior to the Crown Wars), thats when the anguillians went to Sekolah and most became the sahuagin we know and love today.

I love the deep trenches of our own world and the mystery that surrounds them so this whole concept is fascinating to me. The anguillians were original inhabitants of this region and I wonder if they are still there on Toril. Any thoughts?

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Edited by - Seethyr on 12 Oct 2020 18:07:54

AuldDragon
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Posted - 12 Oct 2020 :  18:24:49  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
They're mentioned in Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark, and I used that source and the Sea Devils/Sea of Blood pair to write up Anguileusis in the Faiths & Avatars format:
http://blog.aulddragon.com/2017/03/anguileusis-the-abiding-one/

Jeff

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Seethyr
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Posted - 12 Oct 2020 :  19:04:24  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

They're mentioned in Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark, and I used that source and the Sea Devils/Sea of Blood pair to write up Anguileusis in the Faiths & Avatars format:
http://blog.aulddragon.com/2017/03/anguileusis-the-abiding-one/

Jeff



Oh fantastic. It seems as if that’s a canonical origin story for the sahuagin then, one that predates Sekolah. If I every write up the sahuagin kingdom of Itzcala from Maztica that will be invaluable info.

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sleyvas
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Posted - 12 Oct 2020 :  19:04:48  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You're thinking about the Sea of Corynactis again aren't you? I think we're both circling that area with ideas, and if you want, I don't mind brainstorming a bit if you're actively working the idea. I remember looking at these guys and thinking they'd be great there, as followers of Dagon.

First things first, are Anguillians canon to the realms? Answer yes, but the name is somewhat misspelled an (l replaced by an i)
From Driz'zt guide to the underdark
page 10
While most subterranean waterways are freshwater, salt water sometimes breaches near or beneath seas. For this reason, few Underdark communities settle beneath seabeds. However, deep-sea creatures sometimes create unique ecosystems, such as in the fabled Seadark, a subterranean sea beneath the eastern Sea of Fallen Stars and the Altumbel peninsula. Linked to the water above by three great trenches, the Seadark is home to aquatic beholder-kin and the eellike anguiliians
page 28
Anguiliians
Anguiliians are deep-dwelling lawful evil relatives of the sahuagin, resembling a cross between a man and an eel. While most anguiliians live in the sunless depths of the ocean, few have made their way into the flood tunnels of the Underdark that open to the Abyssal trenches of the Sea of Fallen Stars and the depths of the outer oceans


To note, Dagon's realm in the Abyss is "the shadow sea" and the above talking about the underdark is calling the section beneath the Sea of Fallen Stars "the seadark". I wouldn't say they're the same thing, but it does lend to the idea that portals may exist between them (and we already know Dagon't playing with the wildtide portals into the sea of corynactis).

Next, concerning the sea of Corynactis, if that's where you're going with this. The above opens up an idea that perhaps in the deepest depths of the sea of fallen stars there are underdark tunnels connecting the regions (which fits given that we know there's underdark tunnels that were connecting faerun and Maztica and Anchorome that collapsed with the rockfire disaster... it may even be the same tunnels if those aren't impassable but became flooded, since we don't have a map of such, and it possibly changes with time, its all fair game)

Next would be where exactly to locate it. We know its west of Maztica, but that leaves a lot of options. I'm thinking southwest of Maztica, perhaps even in line with the region between Lopango and northern Katashaka. To note, this corresponds to being "in path" for where I was having Laerakond (returned abeir) staying in the realms, which was directly west of northern Katashaka and directly south of where NW Anchorome and the island to its west overlap. It might even be neat if the sea of corynactis "went to Abeir" and just came back and is now totally surrounding Laerakond. It can add a whole other concern for the region.

Visually, I think the region should look different, with anguillians, shalarin, and octopus type merfolk. Then perhaps a deep sea version of intelligent crustacean (a crabman, lobster man, whatever.....). Of the octopus folk, I like the idea that they were humans of Lopango and Katashaka who were changed by Nula whenever portions connecting both places collapsed into the ocean (creating a shallow area that's maybe all of 100 feet deep that surfacers think is really deep). Perhaps even have them from two separate human cultures (one that's light skinned and one that's dark skinned, and to put a twist on things, perhaps the dark skinned ones are the ones fighting Dagon's influence). I actually picture two sections collapsing (i.e. between Lopango and Katashaka's north and between Katashaka and the "island/continent" to its east, so perhaps these two cultures are from the two different sections).

There should also be some totally non-humanoid creatures, like tako, ixitxachitl, aboleths, eyes of the deep, and maybe even something like an undersea adapted version of grell and/or some illithid ceremorphs of say sahuagin with four arms working with some spacefaring illithids who visit them using nautiloids from Glyth.

That just my first thoughts. Let me know what you think is good, bad, or just utterly stupid. If you weren't looking to flesh out the sea of corynactis, ah, just disregard my thoughts.

To note: canonically, I believe there's a short story of illythiiri (sp?) changing sea elves into sahuagin in one of the realms of anthologies.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 12 Oct 2020 19:14:00
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sleyvas
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Posted - 12 Oct 2020 :  19:49:14  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

They're mentioned in Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark, and I used that source and the Sea Devils/Sea of Blood pair to write up Anguileusis in the Faiths & Avatars format:
http://blog.aulddragon.com/2017/03/anguileusis-the-abiding-one/

Jeff



Beat me to it.

Just a thought regarding Anguileusis and the ritual performed by the Anguillians along with "the Deep Mother" and "the Deep Father"... its said they created a "child god" from one of their perfect offspring... we know this from Sea of Blood. Given other lore, we might even tie anguillians to the batrachi as they're a fallen civilization. Secondarily, perhaps the "death" of Anguileusis created a powerful version of "Atropal".

Just another note, it appears that there's also a somewhat indirect reference that could be perceived as "Dagon" in Sea of Blood as well when they're talking about "The Deep Mother"... such that the "Deep Mother" and "Deep Father" may have been Obyriths, possibly with ties to the Far Realm. This might even more be useful with the idea of batrachi, because perhaps the batrachi were using Obyrith lore to shape races (i.e. they were a creator race). The reference is this

The Deep Mother’s greatest magical achievement is the creation of the Seed qf Tempest, fashioned from the discarded shell from which Anguileusis hatched. The Deep Mother managed to salvage the shell before the Adherents buried the complex, and it has proved an ideal receptacle and focus for much of the Deep Mother’s psychic and sorcerous might. Because she has poured energy into the Seed for a millennium, she is much smaller physically than an individual of her race would otherwise be after having lived for so long (she would normally be even larger than the sahuagin titan Daganisoraan, being older). However, her magical ability, enhanced by the Seed of Tempest, is more than most mortals can ever claim and makes up for what size she might have otherwise possessed (although her 15-foot length is by no means small).

from Sea of Blood just for reference... the adherents were elves...
[i]The anguiliians worshipped their god through the rulers of their civilization, the Deep Mother and Deep Father. The rulers held their power by virtue of their elder status, as well as their ability to commune directly with their god, who took an active interest in the affairs of the world. Anguileusis invested so much of himself in the welfare of his worshipers (using his godly power to vitalize the machinery of the entire anguiliian society) that it finally came to pass that the god wished to permanently cement his ties with his worshipers; he desired to take on the living flesh of an anguiliian himself, and in so doing, lead his worshipers to world domination. To this end, Anguileusis described to the anguiliian rulers the ritual whereby his essence could be drawn down from the outer planes and then melded into an unhatched egg of the Deep Mother and Father.

Joyful for the coming transfiguration, the Deep Mother selected a perfect egg from her most recent laying, while the Deep Father carved out a compound far below the sea floor where the ceremony of investiture would take place, and where the deity could be hatched and reared in seclusion to adulthood. (A small remnant of this compound is described as the Drowned Caverns in Evil Tide.) The ceremony of godly investiture was successful, and the hatching of Anguileusis-in-flesh was accomplished; the Deep Father held the newly hatched deity in his arms when the Adherents of Vitality suddenly penetrated the submerged compound.

The Adherents had studied the anguillians for quite some time before intruding on the ceremony. Intent on their agenda to produce an elf capable of living within the sea, they scoured the oceans and discovered the anguiliians. The elves were dismayed when they beheld the power and breadth of the civilization the anguiliians had engendered with the aid of their deity. The evil anguiliians represented serious competition and a continuing threat to any potential race of colonizing sea elves. When the pow2rful sorcery of the Adherents revealed the anguiliians' plans for the upcoming investiture, the leadership knew that a true crisis was in the offing. If the transfiguration of Anguileusis became a reality, the anguiliians with a god-king at their head would become a force that none under or above the sea could withstand.

Thankfully, a crisis is a beast of two parts: danger and opportunity The danger of allowing the transfiguration to proceed was apparent to all within the cabal, but the opportunity to strike when Anguileusis was yet weak from the hatching had to be seized. If Anguileusis could be neutralized, the entire anguiliian race could be brought to its knees in an instant, and thus rendered a threat no longer to a fledgling race of sea elves.

When the Adherent strike force (composed of a group of truly powerful spellcasters) penetrated the anguiliian compound, its members launched their devastating magical attack (painstakingly researched and developed to neutralize an infant god-in-flesh) the moment they set eyes on the yet weak and disoriented hatchling. The Adherents’ spell blasted aside the still weak magical defenses of the evil child-god, turning Anguileusis’s new flesh to inanimate mineral. The Deep Father was likewise affected, holding the childgod in his arms; thus was born the Stone Which Abides.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
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Posted - 12 Oct 2020 :  21:32:28  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmmm, this got me to looking at "the Sea Devils" as well, because I was looking for a reference to Daganisoraan (couldn't find it)... but it turned me onto something interesting. We know Iakhovas as "the one who swims with Sekolah" from the Threat from the Sea Trilogy. We've had various speculation that he was a wereshark. Some people have wondered if he was a primordial. However, looking at the monsters in that book, he more appears to be a sharkwere (called a Nawidnehr in that book), which is something like how a wolfwere is to a werewolf (i.e. its a shark that can take on humanoid form). Its said to "resemble" a great white shark, but then it goes on to point out that its coloration varies greatly, and its actually bigger than most great whites. The big thing is that it can take on any humanoid form that its seen, so it can appear to be human one day and the next day be a sahuagin. It can be up to size huge in this form as well (so if its seen a giant... noting the terminology for humanoid wasn't so specific in second edition). Its also 30 feet long, but theoretically it might be even bigger if older (and Iakhovas was given immortality by Umberlee, his lover). Basing that on this study of sharks

Great white sharks need decades to reach adult size, and they continue to grow throughout their lifetimes. So, a much-bigger-than-average shark, like Deep Blue, is likely an older shark. ... After reaching maturity, white sharks' growth slows — but it doesn't stop.

Part of the reason I bring this up is that in that adventure you're writing, these could make an interesting encounter as a creature that perhaps helps the party against something bad (it is itself evil, but...) and they might not even know its not human. Hell, a "nawidnehr"/sharkwere might be hidden amongst the crew of the ship that the party is on with its own agenda and might even hire the party to do something for it. You could even drop in some references to Iakhovas (as in perhaps he fathered some of these nawidnehr) for fun.

Hmmm, maybe even Iakhovas has become something like a "vestige" now and he has a cult centered on him with warlocks that call on him for power. If such a cult were led by a "nawidnehr"/sharkwere that's also a warlock it could make for a weird arsed NPC backstory. Since they can assume the form of even huge beings that they've seen, having one that fakes being a giant, like a sea giant or a storm giant.... Not sure where to take this, but its definitely formulating ideas.


Also, interestingly, I'm not the first to exactly come up with this idea of him being a sharkwere.... but I'm the first to actually notate that there was an entry for and rules for a sharkwere.

http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4749

Looks like KnightErrantjr way back when had the idea, but didn't recognize that rules existed for it from 2nd edition. We'd been thinking maybe he was some kind of weird primordial, but him being one of these and then picking up some other tricks starts to make more sense.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 12 Oct 2020 22:31:14
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Compaste
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Posted - 13 Oct 2020 :  01:30:49  Show Profile Send Compaste a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That is a fantastic Idea!
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Seethyr
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Posted - 13 Oct 2020 :  21:23:30  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Is it possible that “Deep Father” could’ve been an incarnation of Dagon? To give birth to a god in a flesh form, I’d think the ‘rents would need to be uniquely powerful and Dagon seems to fit the bill.

Iakhovas would make a great vestige - if only the Binder class would become canon again! When he was alive, I thought I recalled that he was just a megalodon that had learned magic (perhaps after being awakened) and would regularly polymorph into humanoid forms. But that’s a discussion from another thread...

Anyway, one of the things that was happening in Sea of Blood was that the sahuagin who followed Deep Mother were starting to mutate more eel features. Ghosts of Saltmarsh should’ve taken this further with all they did with the shark-folk. They even had “Sahuagjn Deep Divers” who had lighted lures atop their head, but there was no connection to anguillians mentioned.

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sleyvas
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Posted - 13 Oct 2020 :  23:05:16  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr

Is it possible that “Deep Father” could’ve been an incarnation of Dagon? To give birth to a god in a flesh form, I’d think the ‘rents would need to be uniquely powerful and Dagon seems to fit the bill.

Iakhovas would make a great vestige - if only the Binder class would become canon again! When he was alive, I thought I recalled that he was just a megalodon that had learned magic (perhaps after being awakened) and would regularly polymorph into humanoid forms. But that’s a discussion from another thread...

Anyway, one of the things that was happening in Sea of Blood was that the sahuagin who followed Deep Mother were starting to mutate more eel features. Ghosts of Saltmarsh should’ve taken this further with all they did with the shark-folk. They even had “Sahuagjn Deep Divers” who had lighted lures atop their head, but there was no connection to anguillians mentioned.



From the stuff "Deep Father" was turned into mineral along with the would be godling, so while not imppossible, it does make it harder to use him as Dagon. I personally wouldn't do that and would instead say that the aforementioned "Sahuagin Titan Daganisoraan" is another name for Dagon.... unless someone can find ANYTHING to tell me what a sahuagin titan is (maybe IT is a sharkwere)?? Maybe it was a designed creature in 2e? Maybe that's even the long name for Dagon in the cthulhu myths for all I know (not a big cthulhu fan, but it kind of sounds similar).

BTW, from the description given, Deep Mother should have continued to grow with time as well, but she didn't because she was devoting her energy to the "godling". So, both her and Daganisoraan are like sharks in that they never stop growing.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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PattPlays
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Posted - 15 Oct 2020 :  09:39:32  Show Profile  Visit PattPlays's Homepage Send PattPlays a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Whoa! I just found out about Sekolah the Great Shark earlier today, and now there's a thread all about sea-devils. Awesome! I'll have to read all of this thread later..

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Seethyr
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Posted - 15 Oct 2020 :  15:05:44  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays

Whoa! I just found out about Sekolah the Great Shark earlier today, and now there's a thread all about sea-devils. Awesome! I'll have to read all of this thread later..



Going down the rabbit hole.... here come the kopru...

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PattPlays
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Posted - 16 Oct 2020 :  07:17:05  Show Profile  Visit PattPlays's Homepage Send PattPlays a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr

quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays

Whoa! I just found out about Sekolah the Great Shark earlier today, and now there's a thread all about sea-devils. Awesome! I'll have to read all of this thread later..



Going down the rabbit hole.... here come the kopru...


Don't you talk about Rabbit Holes, I just learned the secret of the Beholders and the Astral Dreadnaughts! Here I was spending the whole year researching Ghuanadaur not knowing where it all connected back to..

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sleyvas
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Posted - 16 Oct 2020 :  11:28:52  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays

quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr

quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays

Whoa! I just found out about Sekolah the Great Shark earlier today, and now there's a thread all about sea-devils. Awesome! I'll have to read all of this thread later..



Going down the rabbit hole.... here come the kopru...


Don't you talk about Rabbit Holes, I just learned the secret of the Beholders and the Astral Dreadnaughts! Here I was spending the whole year researching Ghuanadaur not knowing where it all connected back to..



Want to know another secret of the beholders? They had "hive mothers" that birthed them as a species... so apparently they're born multiple ways

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Lord Karsus
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Posted - 16 Oct 2020 :  16:56:15  Show Profile Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

To note: canonically, I believe there's a short story of illythiiri (sp?) changing sea elves into sahuagin in one of the realms of anthologies.


-Correct, "Secrets of Blood, Spirits of the Sea" in Realms of the Arcane.

-Ka'Narlist was into..."magical experimentation". He wanted to conquer the seas and created the Sahuagin/Malenti (Sahuagin that look like Aquatic Elves) by mutating Aquatic Elf slaves. The story was told in such a way to be unreliable, so it's up to you if you want to believe that is how they came to be in the Realms.

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sleyvas
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Posted - 16 Oct 2020 :  19:01:36  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

To note: canonically, I believe there's a short story of illythiiri (sp?) changing sea elves into sahuagin in one of the realms of anthologies.


-Correct, "Secrets of Blood, Spirits of the Sea" in Realms of the Arcane.

-Ka'Narlist was into..."magical experimentation". He wanted to conquer the seas and created the Sahuagin/Malenti (Sahuagin that look like Aquatic Elves) by mutating Aquatic Elf slaves. The story was told in such a way to be unreliable, so it's up to you if you want to believe that is how they came to be in the Realms.



So, since my memory isn't what it was, he took pre-existing aquatic elves and changed them to look like aquatic elves but to be truly sahuagin? I know I brought it up, but I'm just fuzzy on the particulars after all this time.

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Lord Karsus
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Posted - 16 Oct 2020 :  22:17:39  Show Profile Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-Ka'Narlist's first attempt ended in failure. Whatever he did to the female Aquatic Elf slave that he was experimenting on, the first baby that she gave birth to was a regular ol Sea Elf. He commanded his Wemic slave, Mbugua, to get rid of it, but Mbugua let it live, giving it to an free Aquatic Elf who came to a secret cove near Ka'Narlist Keep. According to Mbugua, the baby was a regular Aquatic Elf physically, but had Ka'Narlist's evil nature bred into him. The plan was to raise the baby, named Malenti, to hate Ka'Narlist, so that he would eventually challenge (and kill) him, avenging all of the Aquatic Elves that he enslaved/killed and reclaiming their magic that he stole. When the time came years later, Malenti betrayed Mbugua, revealing himself and his past to Ka'Narlist. In exchange for his services and the Aquatic Elf magic that he had poached from others, Malenti asked to lead the Sahuagin army that Ka'Narlist had successfully developed after his first "failure" with Malenti.



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Seethyr
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Posted - 17 Oct 2020 :  15:07:39  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hrmmm. I had no idea about the Ka’Narlist reference even though I now remember reading that long ago. I wonder if from a lore standpoint the two differing origin stories can be found compatible with additional lore.

Perhaps Ka’Narlist’s story is more about the origins of the Malenti or perhaps his experiments involved the anguillians.

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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 17 Oct 2020 :  15:28:45  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There doesnt need to be only one origin of a race.

Humans today resulted from the evolution and mixing of many different subspecies.

There is evidence that very similar creatures have evolved independently in separate time periods (i read about a creature on one of the mediterranean islands that was wiped out by a natural disaster and then an almost identical creature evolved independently over the next several thousand years).

With magic involved why not have multiple origins for a race, i would be willing to be magic users of great power have created similar servitor races (by altering existing races). Those that escape their servitude or are set free, if they survive and meet other similar creatures eventually breed to create a true breeding race we know today.

So sahuagin might have been created by Ka'Narlist, and by some netherese archmages, and by other magical accidents. There might even have been some naturally evolving creatures. They all mix together over the millennia and today we have sahuagin.

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Lord Karsus
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Posted - 17 Oct 2020 :  16:34:13  Show Profile Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr

Hrmmm. I had no idea about the Ka’Narlist reference even though I now remember reading that long ago. I wonder if from a lore standpoint the two differing origin stories can be found compatible with additional lore.

Perhaps Ka’Narlist’s story is more about the origins of the Malenti or perhaps his experiments involved the anguillians.



-Elaine Cunningham specifically goes out of her way to highlight that the entire story is a myth, and that it is up to you to believe it or not (all of the historical parts of Evermeet: Island of Elves were written in that way, really, though basically all of it has been accepted as absolute). It was being told to the "listener", apparently an Elf, who for whatever reason took a Wemic captive. It ends,

"And so, my elven captor, you have the story, as it was passed to me by my grandsire, who had it from his. Why would the lion-folk tell such a tale, you ask? Perhaps because the elves will not. Yes, there is danger in speaking of such magic. It is true that for every wise wemic who hears the warning in this tale, there will be a fool who sees in it the glittering lure of a dragon's hoard. So regard it as myth, if such pleases you. And indeed, it may well be this story was not built upon the solid stone of fact. But remember this, elf, and write it upon your scroll: oftentimes there is far more truth to be found in legend than in history."

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Seethyr
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Posted - 18 Oct 2020 :  00:40:42  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr

Hrmmm. I had no idea about the Ka’Narlist reference even though I now remember reading that long ago. I wonder if from a lore standpoint the two differing origin stories can be found compatible with additional lore.

Perhaps Ka’Narlist’s story is more about the origins of the Malenti or perhaps his experiments involved the anguillians.



-Elaine Cunningham specifically goes out of her way to highlight that the entire story is a myth, and that it is up to you to believe it or not (all of the historical parts of Evermeet: Island of Elves were written in that way, really, though basically all of it has been accepted as absolute). It was being told to the "listener", apparently an Elf, who for whatever reason took a Wemic captive. It ends,

"And so, my elven captor, you have the story, as it was passed to me by my grandsire, who had it from his. Why would the lion-folk tell such a tale, you ask? Perhaps because the elves will not. Yes, there is danger in speaking of such magic. It is true that for every wise wemic who hears the warning in this tale, there will be a fool who sees in it the glittering lure of a dragon's hoard. So regard it as myth, if such pleases you. And indeed, it may well be this story was not built upon the solid stone of fact. But remember this, elf, and write it upon your scroll: oftentimes there is far more truth to be found in legend than in history."



That gives a lot of leeway which is excellent. I wish more authors would do the same, particularly when they freewheel with Realmsian lore.

I think a myth such as that could really have lost some of its truth over the millennia, with the truth having it as more of an origin story to the malenti. Perhaps Ka'Narlist ACTUALLY didn't create the sahuagin, but his experiments with one (named Malenti and all) is what led to the unfortunate occassional birth of such creatures among the sahuagin. I will have to read the Monstrous Arcana books again to see what they say about the Malenti origins and see if that would be compatible.

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Lord Karsus
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Posted - 18 Oct 2020 :  03:10:21  Show Profile Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-Agreed. I started playing D&D/following the Realms in like 2002 or 2003 or something like that, firmly in the 3e era that presented everything as absolute fact, and I used to prefer it that way. In the years since, the "flawed" perspective of most 2e products has grown on me, simply because of the storytelling possibilities they give. On one hand, it's nice knowing definitively that the Starym murdered Aravae Irithyl but on the other, it was fun not knowing and wondering who dun it.

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 18 Oct 2020 :  04:15:45  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-Agreed. I started playing D&D/following the Realms in like 2002 or 2003 or something like that, firmly in the 3e era that presented everything as absolute fact, and I used to prefer it that way. In the years since, the "flawed" perspective of most 2e products has grown on me, simply because of the storytelling possibilities they give. On one hand, it's nice knowing definitively that the Starym murdered Aravae Irithyl but on the other, it was fun not knowing and wondering who dun it.



I like a mix, myself. I'm of the opinion that you have to have absolute facts, because that's the groundwork everything is built on. But not everything has to be an absolute fact. It's a fact that Frehd was the Duke of Waerever until he fell from a balcony while drunk, but it's believed that his wife was involved in his death.

You can build in a lot of wiggle room without having to say that everything comes from an unreliable narrator.

For that matter, the unreliable narrator gig would work a lot more if he was contradicted in other material and addressed that. "Yes, I know I said this other thing previously; everything pointed in that direction..."

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Lord Karsus
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Posted - 18 Oct 2020 :  16:41:27  Show Profile Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-I'm surprised 4e didn't go in that direction actually, now that I think about it (don't know enough about 5e to comment). It would have detailed the new in a satisfactory way while at the same time fulfilling the whole "it's unknown and up to you" kind of mandate they had going.

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sleyvas
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Posted - 19 Oct 2020 :  15:31:36  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr

quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr

Hrmmm. I had no idea about the Ka’Narlist reference even though I now remember reading that long ago. I wonder if from a lore standpoint the two differing origin stories can be found compatible with additional lore.

Perhaps Ka’Narlist’s story is more about the origins of the Malenti or perhaps his experiments involved the anguillians.



-Elaine Cunningham specifically goes out of her way to highlight that the entire story is a myth, and that it is up to you to believe it or not (all of the historical parts of Evermeet: Island of Elves were written in that way, really, though basically all of it has been accepted as absolute). It was being told to the "listener", apparently an Elf, who for whatever reason took a Wemic captive. It ends,

"And so, my elven captor, you have the story, as it was passed to me by my grandsire, who had it from his. Why would the lion-folk tell such a tale, you ask? Perhaps because the elves will not. Yes, there is danger in speaking of such magic. It is true that for every wise wemic who hears the warning in this tale, there will be a fool who sees in it the glittering lure of a dragon's hoard. So regard it as myth, if such pleases you. And indeed, it may well be this story was not built upon the solid stone of fact. But remember this, elf, and write it upon your scroll: oftentimes there is far more truth to be found in legend than in history."



That gives a lot of leeway which is excellent. I wish more authors would do the same, particularly when they freewheel with Realmsian lore.

I think a myth such as that could really have lost some of its truth over the millennia, with the truth having it as more of an origin story to the malenti. Perhaps Ka'Narlist ACTUALLY didn't create the sahuagin, but his experiments with one (named Malenti and all) is what led to the unfortunate occassional birth of such creatures among the sahuagin. I will have to read the Monstrous Arcana books again to see what they say about the Malenti origins and see if that would be compatible.



I would have to look at the release dates, but I THINK the Sea Devils came AFTER the short story.... and I THINK they are compatible as you say, because I THINK they were trying to make both true back then. I honestly want to go back and reread the short story, but I know I won't because of time constraints (i.e. it would take me an hour just to hunt down the novel).

That being said... I am tempted to reread Evermeet: Island of Elves. God its been so long that I barely even recall the plot of that book, but I remember enjoying the read.

Oh, and on the discussion of "making things less concrete" in earlier editions.... yeah, I too like things sometimes that are definitive, but especially with old myths that are just there for story, giving room to wobble it here or there can be fun. At the same time, it also leads to issues where things just can't be true without there being some insane occurrence. I sometimes wonder if it might be interesting if there were actually multiple timelines that somehow got collapsed together without overwriting one another, such that you have myths in one book from one timeline existing alongside myths in another book from a different timeline but being in the same world.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

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Seethyr
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Posted - 19 Oct 2020 :  22:29:52  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I just reread the short story. It’s telling was pretty unambiguous. It was Ka just wanting to become a god by making a servitor race of the sea, in part to wipe out sea elves.

And yes, as a legend told by a captured wemic they could have just not gotten all the details right. I could see Ka’Narlist really just having bred Malenti to get control over the sahuagin who had already come into being via their evolution from the anguillians. It’s not a massive change to the story and one that keeps the important parts of the legend true.


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Lord Karsus
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Posted - 20 Oct 2020 :  01:44:55  Show Profile Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-Ka'Narlist is probably my favorite Forgotten Realms character. A true G.

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