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Seethyr
Senior Scribe

USA
899 Posts

Posted - 07 Oct 2020 :  18:44:21  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
The recent animation of the Dungeons and Dragons cartoon finale called Requiem lovingly put together by a fan here renewed my interest in my childhood fantasy world.

Dig some digging, asked some questions on Facebook, and found out about The Grand Tour!

Is this canon? Bobby, Presto, and all the others are Realmsian? someone on FB said the Dungeonmaster is El?

I don't know if I despise this or love the idea. There is likely going to be little gray area in between when I make my decision.

Edit: El wasn't DM

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Edited by - Seethyr on 07 Oct 2020 19:06:02

Kentinal
Great Reader

4486 Posts

Posted - 07 Oct 2020 :  18:57:09  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It has the FR logo on it so it should be canon, unless superseded by later released canon.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7237 Posts

Posted - 07 Oct 2020 :  19:52:26  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I would consider the old D&D animation apocryphal. Licensed, long ago, by the corporation which eventually evolved into WotC. And not outright contradicted by subsequent canon. But also never recognized in any subsequent canon. I think Realmslore would've mentioned Tiamat stomping around and roaring at everything in sight.

I would consider the newer D&D animation canon. As childish as it may be, as much as it breaks the fourth wall and stuff. Because it's Hasbro/WotC. They explicitly said it's canon so it's canon.

Unlicensed fan works are never canon in the technically purist (or legal) sense. Even if they strictly adhere to published canon and are popularly embraced by the fandom. They do sometimes become apocryphal canon when they "inspire" new content or are somehow given recognition/reference in later canon works. Doesn't matter if they (illegally) stick official branding and logos on their work. Doesn't matter if the canon owners have tacitly tolerated the fanon without ordering a C&D takedown or otherwise challenging it - fans often believe this means the fanon work is "embraced" or "endorsed" but this is simply untrue.

"Canon" itself is problematic. Even the official owners can contradict or retcon or ignore it any time they like - WotC is often notorious for this. So I wouldn't worry much about "canon" anyhow ... if you don't like it then don't stick with it, change anything you like/dislike ... the publishers already do this, they've already done it many times and are likely to do it again ... I don't see the point in working hard to comply with a "canon" which offers no promise of remaining intact when the publishers have repeatedly demonstrated little respect for it anyhow.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 07 Oct 2020 21:41:44
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sleyvas
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USA
9658 Posts

Posted - 07 Oct 2020 :  20:38:47  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Comes down to a few things. In the dungeons and dragons cartoon, how many moons are there? In that requiem episode, there are two shown at 7 minutes in, so I'm assuming real quick (and could be wrong) that that's something from the original cartoon as well. If it weren't for things like that, then perhaps where they adventure could be on another continent, or in the hordelands, or down in the utter east (i.e. areas with little coverage where some of it could be shoehorned in). If there's 2 moons, then the world can't be Toril, but it could be realmspace possibly, but then it would have to be a world that has more than one moon and fits the general landscape (which would be a hard fit unless we said something like "not all of glyth is like the area where the mindflayers are). Another option is that the world is Abeir, and we find out that on Abeir the second moon isn't destroyed.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
724 Posts

Posted - 07 Oct 2020 :  20:46:38  Show Profile Send TomCosta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'd say apocryphal.
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Seethyr
Senior Scribe

USA
899 Posts

Posted - 07 Oct 2020 :  21:00:10  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think the actual comic has the kids travel to Toril from that other world, so I am unsure if anything gets contradicted. I need to pick up the comic.

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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1749 Posts

Posted - 07 Oct 2020 :  21:30:48  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Weren't the protagonists of the cartoon killed in one of the Baldur's Gate games? That would make at least some version of them canon...

EDIT:
Yeah, they were "killed" in BG2. You can read more here:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=21567

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 07 Oct 2020 21:36:25
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34020 Posts

Posted - 07 Oct 2020 :  21:44:21  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have the comic. If anyone is looking for it, I'd recommend against it -- I'd not give more than a few dollars for it.

The basic plot is that the kids arrive in Shadowdale, and Presto thinks he's going to apprentice himself to Elminster. Elminster says something like "well, let's see what you can handle" and goes teleporting around the Realms with Presto, getting into multiple scrapes, and in the process convinces Presto that he'd be better off without Elminster as a mentor.

And that's about it. It doesn't add anything at all to the setting and isn't referenced anywhere else that I'm aware of. It's basically a promo thing that uses a crossover to say "Elminster is cool!"

The art was not great, either... The kids looked slightly older, but Bobby looked like he was now 35 and now towered over the others -- which contradicts what we saw in one episode of the cartoon, when they met the girl from Earth who had dreams of the future. At the end of that episode, the Dungeon Master showed Bobby the last dream she had before they got her home, and that dream was Bobby walking up to her in school and returning her necklace -- and Bobby was still a pre-teen, in that vision.

I've heard that in one of the Baldur's Gate games, there's a painting in a shop of the kids -- and between that and the comic, that's about it for connecting them to the Realms.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34020 Posts

Posted - 07 Oct 2020 :  21:49:01  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Weren't the protagonists of the cartoon killed in one of the Baldur's Gate games? That would make at least some version of them canon...

EDIT:
Yeah, they were "killed" in BG2. You can read more here:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=21567



It doesn't definitively state they were dead...

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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1749 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2020 :  05:22:38  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah. That's why I say "killed". It's implied, but not outright stated. Save for the poor unicorn. That "it ended up in Tiamat's stomach" seems pretty straightforward.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5986 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2020 :  11:47:28  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Weren't the protagonists of the cartoon killed in one of the Baldur's Gate games? That would make at least some version of them canon...

EDIT:
Yeah, they were "killed" in BG2. You can read more here:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=21567



That's if you consider the computer games in and of themselves "canon". When Jim Butler was traffic-copping the Realms way back when he explicitly stated that the computer games and the characters/events/locales in them were not canon unless and until they were replicated in a gaming or fiction product. I continue to subscribe to that approach.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
9658 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2020 :  14:12:45  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Weren't the protagonists of the cartoon killed in one of the Baldur's Gate games? That would make at least some version of them canon...

EDIT:
Yeah, they were "killed" in BG2. You can read more here:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=21567



Hmmm, interesting, but doesn't mean those paintings were from the realms though. They could have been brought here. Not that I'm against the idea of them being in the realms mind you. In fact, I rather like it, though I don't know how to properly fit it in, but I'll take a rough stab.

That being said, from that thread, I rather like Markustay's response the most. Basically it said "what if they were somewhere else for the cartoons, got home, and then later like the Narnia books they returned". I wouldn't have them die. I would have it that Tiamat faced them. Tiamat lost but didn't die. They got home. Tiamat just doesn't tell anyone and the fact that these people are suddenly gone makes people think they died.

That being said, I also like the ending in that Fan produced show. I'd personally keep it canon if I ever introduced them and remembered where to find it. That makes a perfect answer for how they got home. The realm there were in would be possibly a place like the mists of ravenloft. In that fanon production, "the realm" is noted to be something like a "giant dungeon for everyone there".... so perhaps eventually this place starts to dissolve and Presto has to escape and he goes to Toril. Perhaps even this has something to do with its "dark lord" Venger getting redeemed, so "the realm" brings in another "dark lord"... or awakens a clone of Venger when he was still evil in some odd twist. Perhaps Presto contacts his childhood friends to come back and help him and all the people still living there. They eventually come to Toril when "the realm" is destroyed, leading the way for the inhabitants of the realm. Dungeon Master and the redeemed Venger stay behind to defend the retreat. Presto needs a new master, and he turns to Elminster. Maybe even a lot of the people being led to Toril are actually FROM Toril, and as they return home the "fog of memory" makes them forget their time in the other place and they start to remember instead their former lives on Toril. Only the kids remember the truth.... and the young girl that Presto fell in love with.

Hell, Perhaps instead of what I said above about the kids facing Tiamat and not killing her.... maybe they did, but they went home. Maybe this is a reason Tiamat was gone for a while besides the actions of Bahamut/Marduk in the orcgate wars (i.e. maybe she escaped "the realm" to "the realms" at one point and tried to ascend and the kids stopped it and then went home).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 08 Oct 2020 14:13:38
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1749 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2020 :  15:39:47  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Weren't the protagonists of the cartoon killed in one of the Baldur's Gate games? That would make at least some version of them canon...

EDIT:
Yeah, they were "killed" in BG2. You can read more here:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=21567



That's if you consider the computer games in and of themselves "canon". When Jim Butler was traffic-copping the Realms way back when he explicitly stated that the computer games and the characters/events/locales in them were not canon unless and until they were replicated in a gaming or fiction product. I continue to subscribe to that approach.

-- George Krashos



Interesting. When I asked Ed about the canonicity of the Neverwinter games, ge answered that all games were "canonish", as all the outcomes somehow were taken into account, mostly because the games appeal to a broad customer base.

But, I guess that policy is a post-TSR thing.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 08 Oct 2020 15:40:55
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
4009 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2020 :  00:12:49  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Yeah. That's why I say "killed". It's implied, but not outright stated. Save for the poor unicorn. That "it ended up in Tiamat's stomach" seems pretty straightforward.



Unicorns can teleport. Maybe he teleported out of Tiamat's stomach?

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
9658 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2020 :  01:32:37  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Yeah. That's why I say "killed". It's implied, but not outright stated. Save for the poor unicorn. That "it ended up in Tiamat's stomach" seems pretty straightforward.



Unicorns can teleport. Maybe he teleported out of Tiamat's stomach?



And then Uni grew up to be Kamerynn.... j/k

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1249 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2020 :  04:37:56  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The D&D cartoon hails from a different age, one where Venger couldn't have curbstomped the entire party the moment he met them and where Eric was seen as a nagging complainer instead of the group's only sane man.

Serious, Venger is an 18th level arcane spellcaster capable of casting shapechange (he does it in an episode where he's knocked off a mountain, an otiluke's sphere protects him and then he transforms into a crazy demon thing) and flat-out self-resurrects. A bunch of plucky teenagers and their unicorn should be cannon fodder to him.
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5986 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2020 :  07:35:53  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Weren't the protagonists of the cartoon killed in one of the Baldur's Gate games? That would make at least some version of them canon...

EDIT:
Yeah, they were "killed" in BG2. You can read more here:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=21567



That's if you consider the computer games in and of themselves "canon". When Jim Butler was traffic-copping the Realms way back when he explicitly stated that the computer games and the characters/events/locales in them were not canon unless and until they were replicated in a gaming or fiction product. I continue to subscribe to that approach.

-- George Krashos



Interesting. When I asked Ed about the canonicity of the Neverwinter games, ge answered that all games were "canonish", as all the outcomes somehow were taken into account, mostly because the games appeal to a broad customer base.

But, I guess that policy is a post-TSR thing.



No, what Ed was taking about was in the early days almost all the FR computer games saw follow up in novels or gaming products. That stopped in 4E and has never recommenced. They didn’t take up everything, but things like the Baldur’s Gate novels, the Curse of the Azure Bonds adventure, Pool of Radiance: Attack on Myth Drannor all canonized aspects of the computer games.

— George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7237 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2020 :  07:40:29  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Level isn't meaningful when a Yoda-like Dungeon Master is aligned with the party. The most potent villain in the world cannot compete against a friendly DM who's interested in handholding the most useless of heroes (and their unicorn) to victory.

[/Ayrik]
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sfdragon
Great Reader

2274 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2020 :  07:46:09  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I would not call it canon at all. It has atleast one character that is known from Greyhawk.....

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
4009 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2020 :  13:55:58  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
No, what Ed was taking about was in the early days almost all the FR computer games saw follow up in novels or gaming products. That stopped in 4E and has never recommenced. They didn’t take up everything, but things like the Baldur’s Gate novels, the Curse of the Azure Bonds adventure, Pool of Radiance: Attack on Myth Drannor all canonized aspects of the computer games.



Small quibble, Pool of Radiance: Attack on Myth Drannor is the Adventure that accompanied the video game and Novel, in which the Adventurers deal with other aspects of the Adventure while the game/novel protagonists take on the main Elementals. But it does state that if things go badly for them, you're there to help them out.

Also the novel is actually really good, and is called the same name as the game, Pool of Radiance: Ruins of Myth Drannor.
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
9658 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2020 :  15:10:47  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon

I would not call it canon at all. It has atleast one character that is known from Greyhawk.....



Just curious? That was?

All this talk really makes me want to find that dvd that I bought and never watched. I haven't watched the show since I was a kid, and yet the characters are so much more vivid in my memory than even much newer stuff. Its weird how stuff like that is.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sfdragon
Great Reader

2274 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2020 :  15:33:07  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Strongheart was not a Realms npc. The Paladin was supposed to be a Grayhawk one

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234
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Bakra
Senior Scribe

628 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2020 :  16:28:05  Show Profile Send Bakra a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon

Strongheart was not a Realms npc. The Paladin was supposed to be a Grayhawk one



Strongheart, Warduke, and Kelek I always associated them with Mystara.

I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
724 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2020 :  22:51:16  Show Profile Send TomCosta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Realms is riddled with portals, their is Spelljamming, Planescape, and the fact the Ed meets with El and El meets with Mordenkainen and Dalamar. Anything is possible.
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Seethyr
Senior Scribe

USA
899 Posts

Posted - 10 Oct 2020 :  00:15:29  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta

The Realms is riddled with portals, their is Spelljamming, Planescape, and the fact the Ed meets with El and El meets with Mordenkainen and Dalamar. Anything is possible.



I'm partial to this mostly because of greed. Heck, this has kind of triggered me into wanting to put Demodragon into the Realms.

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bloodtide_the_red
Learned Scribe

USA
112 Posts

Posted - 14 Oct 2020 :  02:43:37  Show Profile  Visit bloodtide_the_red's Homepage Send bloodtide_the_red a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well check out this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msDp_k-Fid4
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