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Seethyr
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USA
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Posted - 01 Oct 2020 :  21:44:10  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Is it possible that cities like Waterdeep and others along the Sword Coast produce enough garbage over time that a situation similar to what we have in the real world occurs where we end up with a massive garbage patch?

I mean, it likely wouldn’t be the size we have now, but certainly some magic has bled into such a patch as well, perhaps giving parts of it sentience? Perhaps creatures like mermen or tritons are trying to filter it out to some other plane (elemental water maybe?).

If I wanted to do something like this, what would replace all the plastics of the one we have?

I don’t know, I thought it might make a nice encounter on a sea voyage, or even a set of encounters.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 01 Oct 2020 :  22:03:03  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr

Is it possible that cities like Waterdeep and others along the Sword Coast produce enough garbage over time that a situation similar to what we have in the real world occurs where we end up with a massive garbage patch?

I mean, it likely wouldn’t be the size we have now, but certainly some magic has bled into such a patch as well, perhaps giving parts of it sentience? Perhaps creatures like mermen or tritons are trying to filter it out to some other plane (elemental water maybe?).

If I wanted to do something like this, what would replace all the plastics of the one we have?

I don’t know, I thought it might make a nice encounter on a sea voyage, or even a set of encounters.



It's possible, assuming similar currents and such... However, even those cities of the Realms actively dumping everything into the sea (which would not include Waterdeep; they have the Rat Hills) are not going to be generating anywhere near as much was as a real-world city of the same size.

Also, in the Realms you have something else to factor in: the various intelligent critters of the sea. Kraken, tako, mermen, tritons, shalarin, dragon turtles, sahaugin, sea elves, all sorts of stuff. I think that any number of those critters would act to keep such a patch from forming.

Instead of going with garbage patches, I'd go with huge beds of floating aquatic plants -- mosses or kelp or something like that. Maybe there's some relatively calm area where a huge clump of aquatic plants formed -- miles across and capable of supporting buildings -- and smaller clumps periodically break away from it and drift about.

You could go with some new race living on them -- maybe short, semi-aquatic humanoids, something like amphibious halflings. For them, these masses are like floating islands, but they have some innate ability to steer (slowly, most likely) them, and these folks are just as comfortable on land as they are in water. In fact, maybe they make small lakes or ponds on these islands and build their homes at the edge of them, partially submerged. They could "farm" certain plants on top of the moss and get the rest of their sustenance from the sea.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 01 Oct 2020 22:04:14
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Kentinal
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Posted - 01 Oct 2020 :  22:11:33  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It clearly might be possible for some kind of Sargasso Sea that currents collect certain types of refuse. After all it is in that dangerous Bermuda Triangle where ships and planes disappear all the time. Some say that is aliens, however it might be magic from Atlantis.

So indeed it appears possible idea if one considers the oceans and the known (or likely) currents might find a good place for it. I am not sure West coast would be best, however have not looked at currents.

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"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 01 Oct 2020 :  23:09:17  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal

It clearly might be possible for some kind of Sargasso Sea that currents collect certain types of refuse. After all it is in that dangerous Bermuda Triangle where ships and planes disappear all the time. Some say that is aliens, however it might be magic from Atlantis.

So indeed it appears possible idea if one considers the oceans and the known (or likely) currents might find a good place for it. I am not sure West coast would be best, however have not looked at currents.




The real-world does have a huge garbage patch in the Pacific. A couple of them, I believe.

The Bermuda Triangle is pure BS, though. The numbers of lost ships and aircraft there isn't any different from any similar patch of ocean. The whole "mystery" of it is much like the Mayan apocalypse of December 21, 2012 -- it was a whole lot of nothing that someone hyped up to sell books, and it took on a life of its own.

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Kentinal
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Posted - 01 Oct 2020 :  23:19:02  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal

It clearly might be possible for some kind of Sargasso Sea that currents collect certain types of refuse. After all it is in that dangerous Bermuda Triangle where ships and planes disappear all the time. Some say that is aliens, however it might be magic from Atlantis.

So indeed it appears possible idea if one considers the oceans and the known (or likely) currents might find a good place for it. I am not sure West coast would be best, however have not looked at currents.




The real-world does have a huge garbage patch in the Pacific. A couple of them, I believe.

The Bermuda Triangle is pure BS, though. The numbers of lost ships and aircraft there isn't any different from any similar patch of ocean. The whole "mystery" of it is much like the Mayan apocalypse of December 21, 2012 -- it was a whole lot of nothing that someone hyped up to sell books, and it took on a life of its own.



Yup like I really expect aliens or Atlantis to rise from the Bermuda Triangle, was just offering that notion as for the idea of magic being within a region of Sea.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon

Edited by - Kentinal on 01 Oct 2020 23:19:54
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ElfBane
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Posted - 01 Oct 2020 :  23:20:56  Show Profile Send ElfBane a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Also, the FR waste is probably MUCH more degradable than modern plastic waste. Plus the population is not anywhere near 8 billion.
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Kentinal
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Posted - 01 Oct 2020 :  23:33:34  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ElfBane

Also, the FR waste is probably MUCH more degradable than modern plastic waste. Plus the population is not anywhere near 8 billion.



Well ships wrecked, other floatables could get trapped by currents. Some clearly consumed, some deteriorate from exposure, some even raided by some of the sea folk for their use.



Clearly would not be filled with plastic or many other things that do not break apart easy or well. As to how much dumped, that of course would not be as much per person and as indicated less persons on the world.

So the collection could be smaller of items collected in such a sea further apart from others.
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Ayrik
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Posted - 01 Oct 2020 :  23:54:24  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dungeons fill with trash, too. The local trolls and goblinoids scavenge whatever they find useful, rust monsters consume "non-biodegradables", slimes and molds dissolve the rest. Creatures like neo-otyughs are used by humanoids to dispose of garbage, although sophisticated races might prefer spheres of annihilation and other magical means. And everywhere you go the bugs and rats will chew things down.

The Realms is not industrialized or modernized. They don't generate plastics and polymers in any quantity, if at all. Everything they make by hand can be remade by hand. The only "non-biodegradables" they manufacture are magical items (which tend to be highly prized) and corpses (which require special disposal so they're not eaten or undeadified)

If there's any kind of lasting pollution in the Realms, it's magical, it's often toxic or dangerous. Many malfunctioning ancient elven magics litter the landscape, many half-useless magical devices collect dust in old tombs and dragon hoards.

You might want to look up "concealed shoes".

I'm curious whether aquatic cultures have counterparts to druids.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 01 Oct 2020 23:58:03
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Seethyr
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Posted - 02 Oct 2020 :  00:11:18  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr

Is it possible that cities like Waterdeep and others along the Sword Coast produce enough garbage over time that a situation similar to what we have in the real world occurs where we end up with a massive garbage patch?

I mean, it likely wouldn’t be the size we have now, but certainly some magic has bled into such a patch as well, perhaps giving parts of it sentience? Perhaps creatures like mermen or tritons are trying to filter it out to some other plane (elemental water maybe?).

If I wanted to do something like this, what would replace all the plastics of the one we have?

I don’t know, I thought it might make a nice encounter on a sea voyage, or even a set of encounters.



It's possible, assuming similar currents and such... However, even those cities of the Realms actively dumping everything into the sea (which would not include Waterdeep; they have the Rat Hills) are not going to be generating anywhere near as much was as a real-world city of the same size.

Also, in the Realms you have something else to factor in: the various intelligent critters of the sea. Kraken, tako, mermen, tritons, shalarin, dragon turtles, sahaugin, sea elves, all sorts of stuff. I think that any number of those critters would act to keep such a patch from forming.

Instead of going with garbage patches, I'd go with huge beds of floating aquatic plants -- mosses or kelp or something like that. Maybe there's some relatively calm area where a huge clump of aquatic plants formed -- miles across and capable of supporting buildings -- and smaller clumps periodically break away from it and drift about.

You could go with some new race living on them -- maybe short, semi-aquatic humanoids, something like amphibious halflings. For them, these masses are like floating islands, but they have some innate ability to steer (slowly, most likely) them, and these folks are just as comfortable on land as they are in water. In fact, maybe they make small lakes or ponds on these islands and build their homes at the edge of them, partially submerged. They could "farm" certain plants on top of the moss and get the rest of their sustenance from the sea.



Yeah I was planning on including this as well. “Journey’s End” from the old Dungeon mag adventure path - I think the specific adventure was the “Wreck of the Sea Wyvern.”

It might be too much overlap to have one of garbage and one of seaweed but I thought it might be a cool concept to explore.


If anything, I might make it much, much smaller than the real world one and consist of all sorts of flotsam. I am looking at having Tritons in the process of cleaning it up but being really annoyed at the folks who created it.

I forgot about the Rat Hills. Dang.

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 02 Oct 2020 :  01:52:24  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

I'm curious whether aquatic cultures have counterparts to druids.



I don't see why they wouldn't. I'd expect that pretty much any natural terrain could have its own druids or rangers.

I was personally thinking of sea druids when I made my suggestion.

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Lord Karsus
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Posted - 02 Oct 2020 :  01:58:42  Show Profile Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

I'm curious whether aquatic cultures have counterparts to druids.


-Second, third and fifth editions (and presumably fourth as well but quick basic searches didn't come up with anything) all have rules for aquatic druids (some with additional text that further fleshes out aquatic races where druids are common/less common, so by the rules they definitely do. In terms of the Forgotten Realms, I can't think of any examples off the top of my head but it would be weird for them not to exist.

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Seethyr
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USA
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Posted - 02 Oct 2020 :  02:49:22  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

I'm curious whether aquatic cultures have counterparts to druids.


-Second, third and fifth editions (and presumably fourth as well but quick basic searches didn't come up with anything) all have rules for aquatic druids (some with additional text that further fleshes out aquatic races where druids are common/less common, so by the rules they definitely do. In terms of the Forgotten Realms, I can't think of any examples off the top of my head but it would be weird for them not to exist.



Though I don't think they were originally written that way, if I were to "5e-ify" dukars, I might make them undersea druids.

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bloodtide_the_red
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Posted - 02 Oct 2020 :  03:10:37  Show Profile  Visit bloodtide_the_red's Homepage Send bloodtide_the_red a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, 2E and 3E Realms were full of such things....but I don't know if they are around in 5E.

There are plenty of trash garbage undead, plus animated objects, and other monsters: skuz, palempast, raggamoffun, undead ooze, junk constructs of all sorts, plus ghosts.

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Brimstone
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Posted - 02 Oct 2020 :  13:36:10  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A one way gate to the plane of fire would work...

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sleyvas
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Posted - 02 Oct 2020 :  14:28:35  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Bloodtide kind of beat me to it, but that's what I would do. Make it more of a "trash monster" of some sort. Maybe some magical accident that happened in the rat hills that moved out to sea. Maybe some magical creature was killed and its body was hauled to the trash heap because A) it wasn't edible and B) it wasn't humanoid and C) it wasn't able to be used for some component purpose and it degraded and somehow transferred its magical essence into the trash. Maybe its "possessing" the trash in some form of odd "ghost of an elemental". Maybe some Ghaunadar or Moander priests somehow brought it to life (leaning more towards Moander).

Maybe even something like some mud men died and somehow got possessed into the trash head, maybe it appears like a small island/sandbar with trash on it, at the center of which is seemingly a chest filled with treasure. Maybe even multiple creatures working together (such as a mimic posing as the treasure). Maybe its even on the back of something that some wise adventurers might have heard of and expect, like the body of a dragon turtle... but instead its a dead dragon turtle that's nothing more than a big zombie.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 02 Oct 2020 15:30:09
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Ayrik
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Canada
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Posted - 02 Oct 2020 :  17:03:40  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Moandar is all about rotting and decay. I don't think he's interested in reanimating dead stuff. Although he's most interested in corrupting living stuff with his own particular fate-worse-than-death. His priests might be very interested in fresh trash, still heaving in squirmy grossness, but I doubt they could do too much with "dead" garbage. Then again, they'd probably serve their god better by corrupting something pure than by repurposing unwanted refuse.

I expect that any massive, disgusting, and toxic sea-garbage hazards or creatures close to major dumping sites (port cities) would be removed before long, they would never be allowed to become more than an unpleasant nuisance. They'd certainly not become decades-old gargantuan sea monsters capable of threatening ships and shores.

Folk of the Realms may not enjoy proper sanitization but they also don't live in the same kind of filth as our world's medievals did. And they know better than to put juicy piles of garbage nearby because these would just attract scavenger monsters and unsavoury humans who'd likely become an eventual threat.

The Realms doesn't automatically imbue every clump of cut stone or cut lumber with animated magical life force. There's plenty of broken buildings full of broken furniture, abandoned dungeons, desolate tombs, and neglected crafts scattered everywhere in the Realms - the staple of every adventure module. So why this particular need for a lump of garbage to become a magical entity? What kind of adventurers would be so desperate for quests that they'd accept garbage-hunting expeditions? Why wouldn't the local seafolk (near the water, under the water) address the cause of the problem before it became a major problem?

[/Ayrik]
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author

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Posted - 10 Oct 2020 :  20:30:09  Show Profile  Visit Steven Schend's Homepage Send Steven Schend a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr

Is it possible that cities like Waterdeep and others along the Sword Coast produce enough garbage over time that a situation similar to what we have in the real world occurs where we end up with a massive garbage patch?


Possible, sure, but unlikely, as most materials made in the Realms are biodegradeable and far more natural than the artificial substances that create floating garbage patches in our world. IMO

quote:
I mean, it likely wouldn’t be the size we have now, but certainly some magic has bled into such a patch as well, perhaps giving parts of it sentience? Perhaps creatures like mermen or tritons are trying to filter it out to some other plane (elemental water maybe?).

If I wanted to do something like this, what would replace all the plastics of the one we have?

I don’t know, I thought it might make a nice encounter on a sea voyage, or even a set of encounters.



You could definitely work with aquatic cultures as per how they see and deal with surface-dwellers trash filtering down their way. Believe I left some notes re just that sort of thing in SEA OF FALLEN STARS but can't recall immediately.

Of course, while everything that goes into the sea will get recycled in one way or another, there's plenty of new ways to look at it.

What if a wizard crafted an item specifically to scuttle a ship and turn it into a sea-floor-walking golem designed to grab any treasure it can find and bring it to his island lair?

Why not have triton druids use seawrack to cobble together walls or sub-surface barriers that can deter above- or below-water attacks or movement?

Perhaps even looking at a new form of trade cropping up in Impiltur of druids or other folk who tend plants and crops? I could easily see trading pearls or storm-lost materials from the sea for certain land-bound plants with shalarin traders from Myth Nantar or elsewhere (who adapt such plants to subsea farming and new foodstuffs previously unknown).

So, a query about garbage gives me (and you) more than a few new angles by which to look at the sea from more than just above/below.

And that's not even discussing the trades and potentials of aquatics who can handle bracken venturing up rivers from the sea to explore or trade......nor to mention all sorts of things lost in rivers that end up in the sea far from their points of being lost.

Steven
who's happy he popped his head in as this ideastorm was very quick and refreshing

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 10 Oct 2020 :  20:53:28  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend

What if a wizard crafted an item specifically to scuttle a ship and turn it into a sea-floor-walking golem designed to grab any treasure it can find and bring it to his island lair?


When I was writing up my Lords of Waterdeep articles and did one as a water genasi, the idea of having her own an underwater salvage business was an obvious one. I actually wrote it up, to a degree, but wasn't satisfied with it and meant to revisit it.

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Dalor Darden
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Posted - 10 Oct 2020 :  23:11:40  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I really like the idea of a massive area of "dead" ships held in place by a floating area of plant-life. One of my favorite Conan comics of all time had an area where ships became captured by just such a magical place.

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sleyvas
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Posted - 11 Oct 2020 :  01:47:39  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend


Perhaps even looking at a new form of trade cropping up in Impiltur of druids or other folk who tend plants and crops? I could easily see trading pearls or storm-lost materials from the sea for certain land-bound plants with shalarin traders from Myth Nantar or elsewhere (who adapt such plants to subsea farming and new foodstuffs previously unknown).

Steven
who's happy he popped his head in as this ideastorm was very quick and refreshing



Hey Steven, this one caught my eye, but I'm not sure what kind of plants your picturing doing this with and/or how. Not saying that I'm not thinking it can happen, just its not clicking and I feel like I'm missing something. Like, just as an example, would you be saying that maybe they'd want to adapt.... let's just say blueberries for grins... so they'd grow blueberries under the ocean, but without light and in a wet environment? Or would they be making places under the water that are in effect small air bubbles in which they'd grow like blueberry bushes? I think you have a good idea here for making the two cultures talk more, because plants are a renewable resource that both sides can use... I'm just not picturing how to make it work.

Along these lines though.... underwater treant... animates bushes of berries of some sort so that they can "water themselves" and then walk back into a airy bubble area. Later has these same bushes walk into the water so they can be picked by non-air breathers.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author

USA
1642 Posts

Posted - 11 Oct 2020 :  06:53:06  Show Profile  Visit Steven Schend's Homepage Send Steven Schend a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend


Perhaps even looking at a new form of trade cropping up in Impiltur of druids or other folk who tend plants and crops? I could easily see trading pearls or storm-lost materials from the sea for certain land-bound plants with shalarin traders from Myth Nantar or elsewhere (who adapt such plants to subsea farming and new foodstuffs previously unknown).

Steven
who's happy he popped his head in as this ideastorm was very quick and refreshing



Hey Steven, this one caught my eye, but I'm not sure what kind of plants your picturing doing this with and/or how. Not saying that I'm not thinking it can happen, just its not clicking and I feel like I'm missing something. Like, just as an example, would you be saying that maybe they'd want to adapt.... let's just say blueberries for grins... so they'd grow blueberries under the ocean, but without light and in a wet environment? Or would they be making places under the water that are in effect small air bubbles in which they'd grow like blueberry bushes? I think you have a good idea here for making the two cultures talk more, because plants are a renewable resource that both sides can use... I'm just not picturing how to make it work.

Along these lines though.... underwater treant... animates bushes of berries of some sort so that they can "water themselves" and then walk back into a airy bubble area. Later has these same bushes walk into the water so they can be picked by non-air breathers.



First, think of reinforced habitats and environments--Ferns or tough shrubs that are considered weeds on the surface might be great ways to reinforce or rebuild shallows and land slopes beneath the waves. Just as we have problems supporting dunes above the water, they may have the same beneath.

Think also about what serves as food for underwater races and you'll think of ideas. It's less what land dwellers find as food and what aquatics might be able to use/adapt as food for themselves--thinking closer to cucumbers or other water-heavy vegetables, certain rices and other starch-heavy plants that might suit or become suitable for underwater use/growth.

What if prickly pears or cactus--adapted for growth/survival beneath the waves--could be a great boon food-wise or even a way for salt-water dwellers to produce fresh water inside the plants despite the salinary environment?

Again, this is just brainstorming, not serious study, but there's a wealth of story and campaign potential in exploring this idea imo

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Mirtek
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Posted - 11 Oct 2020 :  13:03:08  Show Profile Send Mirtek a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I do not think they could produce anything like the real world garbage patches (which also in RL look nothing like the pictures often shown when they are mentioned in media), simply because the FR cities would not dumb so much not degradable waste like we do. Most of what they dumb into the sea would already be decomposed before enough of it could accumulate.
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
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Posted - 11 Oct 2020 :  15:01:49  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Check out the Greyhawk campaign setting boxed set (not the folio) which had a super cool Sargasso Sea adventure idea in it.

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Seethyr
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Posted - 11 Oct 2020 :  16:03:59  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Check out the Greyhawk campaign setting boxed set (not the folio) which had a super cool Sargasso Sea adventure idea in it.

-- George Krashos



They also have a location called “Journey’s End” which shows up in the Sea Wyvern’s Wake adventure in the Dungeon Magazine adventure path.

That was actually the inspiration, for my initial post. That and the fact that I read a newspaper article about the Pacific Garbage Patch only moments before.

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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore

Netherlands
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The left over buoyant remains of ships of a major naval battle could coalesce into a great wooden flotsam pile, a great adventuring site indeed.

Additionally in shallower waters the wrecked hulls could still pierce the waves and function as partially submerged wooden dungeons of a slippery and shanty type.

Add a bright half moon with a brewing lightning storm on the horizon, and floating images of flying dead pirates flitting through the tangles of sails and rigging and a gothic horror scene unfolds.

____


As for garbage waste of medieval fantasy cities I would use the concept of foul waters and dark magicks: one can see alchemical mishaps sometimes adding odd stenches and colors to waste waters; perhaps the color or stench of healing potions can be detected from sewers around adventuring hubs due to the overlarge consumption of them by the local bumbling adventuring communities; high octane smells waft from magical academy's chimneys, while a weird purple viscous substance pools at the bottom of the fountain.

Dark metropoli could leak unholy fouled water from shadowy stained aquaducts, foul to the taste and pooling together in the center of a coastal bay. Undead waste products like zombified flesh and negatively charged bone might be tougher for a sea ecosystem to reduce and could collect into flotsam as well.

Abjured items like a cloaks of resistance or preserved food can potentially endure the seas wear and tear better and a massive lost shipment might produce problems on naval routes.

My campaign sketches

Druidic Groves

Creature Feature: Giant Spiders
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
9658 Posts

Posted - 11 Oct 2020 :  23:46:34  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend


Perhaps even looking at a new form of trade cropping up in Impiltur of druids or other folk who tend plants and crops? I could easily see trading pearls or storm-lost materials from the sea for certain land-bound plants with shalarin traders from Myth Nantar or elsewhere (who adapt such plants to subsea farming and new foodstuffs previously unknown).

Steven
who's happy he popped his head in as this ideastorm was very quick and refreshing



Hey Steven, this one caught my eye, but I'm not sure what kind of plants your picturing doing this with and/or how. Not saying that I'm not thinking it can happen, just its not clicking and I feel like I'm missing something. Like, just as an example, would you be saying that maybe they'd want to adapt.... let's just say blueberries for grins... so they'd grow blueberries under the ocean, but without light and in a wet environment? Or would they be making places under the water that are in effect small air bubbles in which they'd grow like blueberry bushes? I think you have a good idea here for making the two cultures talk more, because plants are a renewable resource that both sides can use... I'm just not picturing how to make it work.

Along these lines though.... underwater treant... animates bushes of berries of some sort so that they can "water themselves" and then walk back into a airy bubble area. Later has these same bushes walk into the water so they can be picked by non-air breathers.



First, think of reinforced habitats and environments--Ferns or tough shrubs that are considered weeds on the surface might be great ways to reinforce or rebuild shallows and land slopes beneath the waves. Just as we have problems supporting dunes above the water, they may have the same beneath.

Think also about what serves as food for underwater races and you'll think of ideas. It's less what land dwellers find as food and what aquatics might be able to use/adapt as food for themselves--thinking closer to cucumbers or other water-heavy vegetables, certain rices and other starch-heavy plants that might suit or become suitable for underwater use/growth.

What if prickly pears or cactus--adapted for growth/survival beneath the waves--could be a great boon food-wise or even a way for salt-water dwellers to produce fresh water inside the plants despite the salinary environment?

Again, this is just brainstorming, not serious study, but there's a wealth of story and campaign potential in exploring this idea imo



Agreed, brainstorming.... and gotta say I like the idea with the cactus for cleaning saltwater. That then might be used to "water" other plants that might not be adaptable to salt water environments. I like where this is going (the idea of fortifying things too is neat). I need to dwell on it a bit though.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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