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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
9635 Posts

Posted - 01 Oct 2020 :  00:50:49  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I think, at most, the time travel thing is a future setup, and that the intent is for it to be a major part of a later adventure.

While I, personally, would prefer to see a reset to the Realms, I recognize just how problematic that would be -- and given the current design team's willingness to disregard prior canon (and their willingness to import from other settings!), there really isn't much need for them to do a reset. They're picking and choosing what canon to use or ignore as it is, and they already did the Sundering and launched the subsequent Era of Vagueness to refuse giving a definitive answer to anything.

There's really no benefit, given their current approach, to rebooting the setting.

Therefore, I think there's going to be some major nastybad that the PCs have to go back to Netheril to be able to defeat. Maybe they've got to get some item or spell from then, or maybe they've got to do some action that will stack things in their favor, later... Pick your plot from Chrono Trigger, it'll be one of those things. This is where my money is, on this one.

(This is not a bash, aside from bemoaning the current lack of information. There's more reason not to reboot than there is reason to reboot, and Chrono Trigger was an awesome game with a lot of time travel elements that likely did not originate in that game and that make sense to re-use)



Maybe someone else will go back in the past and cast Karsus' Avatar but choose a different target.... and that's how Talos came to be.



I don't see WotC using a change the past option -- unless the quest is centered around preventing some major temporal change that would have undeniably catastrophic effects on the future. You start mucking around with something like that, you get paradoxes (I'll kill Karsus!) and people wanting to change time to their own benefit and things like that (Motley Lou!). Going the "bring some knowledge/long-lost item forward but not change anything" route keeps most of the potential time travel conundrums out of the equation.



Yeah, I was just joking.... although now that I think on it more THAT mechanic COULD be a good way to explain why some gods suddenly changed. Not so great when the whole pantheon does though.

They could bring people forward though that supposedly died. All you have to do is fake their death.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34002 Posts

Posted - 01 Oct 2020 :  02:47:48  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You wouldn't even have to fake it, necessarily. Someone vanishes without a trace, and even divine inquiries* don't say where the person is? Death is a reasonable assumption.


*I'm assuming most deities wouldn't be able to say "oh, yeah, I can see this dude, 1800 years into the future."

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sleyvas
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USA
9635 Posts

Posted - 01 Oct 2020 :  13:39:11  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

You wouldn't even have to fake it, necessarily. Someone vanishes without a trace, and even divine inquiries* don't say where the person is? Death is a reasonable assumption.


*I'm assuming most deities wouldn't be able to say "oh, yeah, I can see this dude, 1800 years into the future."



Yeah, so if a whole enclave of Netherese (not the enclave, but the people) were to disappear because people from the future go back to then, and said enclave crashes in Karsus' Folly, it wouldn't be a hard stretch. Not that I'm looking for a return of more Netherese mind you, but it's a very easy and viable storyline. That being said, it might be an interesting way to "spice up" a returning Halruaa without overly pissing off a lot of people. I personally think if Halruaa came back really weak and its first thoughts were "man, if i could just get an injection of a lot of wizards fast" and they found this.... it may not be a horrible story.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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34002 Posts

Posted - 01 Oct 2020 :  18:07:17  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If I was to run a post-Spellplague Realms, Halruaa would have never gone anywhere, and would would have weathered the Spellplague more or less intact (see my Five Companies Redux idea).

I'm not sure that a bunch of returned Netherese wouldn't be really disruptive. They've got a different approach to magic, they come from what is almost a different world, and some of them would have a hard time fitting into any society where they weren't on top and able to do whatever they pleased.

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sleyvas
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USA
9635 Posts

Posted - 02 Oct 2020 :  00:08:31  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

If I was to run a post-Spellplague Realms, Halruaa would have never gone anywhere, and would would have weathered the Spellplague more or less intact (see my Five Companies Redux idea).

I'm not sure that a bunch of returned Netherese wouldn't be really disruptive. They've got a different approach to magic, they come from what is almost a different world, and some of them would have a hard time fitting into any society where they weren't on top and able to do whatever they pleased.



True, that being said, it might not be the "top" people. If it were a LOT of low end of the totem spellcasters saved... that being said, yeah, there would be a huge culture shock.... guess it would be like bringing Romans to modern day in some ways, but only if the Romans had already had electric lights and such. Also, they could use the same trick and rescue a bunch of people from pretty much any culture back then, because a lot of people died... just more so those who were in enclaves I guess.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Compaste
Seeker

15 Posts

Posted - 02 Oct 2020 :  11:43:54  Show Profile Send Compaste a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It is quite likely that they were scattered all over Toril.
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Delnyn
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USA
361 Posts

Posted - 04 Oct 2020 :  06:25:55  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

If I was to run a post-Spellplague Realms, Halruaa would have never gone anywhere, and would would have weathered the Spellplague more or less intact (see my Five Companies Redux idea).

I'm not sure that a bunch of returned Netherese wouldn't be really disruptive. They've got a different approach to magic, they come from what is almost a different world, and some of them would have a hard time fitting into any society where they weren't on top and able to do whatever they pleased.



Would it reasonable to postulate Nentyarch Zalathorm (one heck of a diviner in his own right) and the Halruaans predicted a Toril-wide catastrophe involving Mystra and the Weave, and took whatever protective measures they could?
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34002 Posts

Posted - 04 Oct 2020 :  15:27:50  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

If I was to run a post-Spellplague Realms, Halruaa would have never gone anywhere, and would would have weathered the Spellplague more or less intact (see my Five Companies Redux idea).

I'm not sure that a bunch of returned Netherese wouldn't be really disruptive. They've got a different approach to magic, they come from what is almost a different world, and some of them would have a hard time fitting into any society where they weren't on top and able to do whatever they pleased.



Would it reasonable to postulate Nentyarch Zalathorm (one heck of a diviner in his own right) and the Halruaans predicted a Toril-wide catastrophe involving Mystra and the Weave, and took whatever protective measures they could?



That depends... Other mortals are said to have known something was coming and were able to prepare. However, I personally think it doesn't make sense that mortals could somehow sense the coming Spellplague but the gods couldn't.

So canon says yes and logic says no.

So really, it comes down to however you want to spin it.

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Delnyn
Senior Scribe

USA
361 Posts

Posted - 04 Oct 2020 :  17:15:17  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

If I was to run a post-Spellplague Realms, Halruaa would have never gone anywhere, and would would have weathered the Spellplague more or less intact (see my Five Companies Redux idea).

I'm not sure that a bunch of returned Netherese wouldn't be really disruptive. They've got a different approach to magic, they come from what is almost a different world, and some of them would have a hard time fitting into any society where they weren't on top and able to do whatever they pleased.



Would it reasonable to postulate Nentyarch Zalathorm (one heck of a diviner in his own right) and the Halruaans predicted a Toril-wide catastrophe involving Mystra and the Weave, and took whatever protective measures they could?



That depends... Other mortals are said to have known something was coming and were able to prepare. However, I personally think it doesn't make sense that mortals could somehow sense the coming Spellplague but the gods couldn't.

So canon says yes and logic says no.

So really, it comes down to however you want to spin it.



Spellplague and logic don't mix too well. I would rather scrap my idea and go with logic to be honest. I can picture Halruaan wards holding against the Spellplague like many elven mythals did. Thanks for your feedback.

Edited by - Delnyn on 04 Oct 2020 17:18:03
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Gary Dallison
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United Kingdom
5279 Posts

Posted - 06 Oct 2020 :  19:56:07  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just got a copy of Rime of the Frostmaiden, not happy with lore so far.

Caer Dinneval founded by the Dinev family from Cormyr.
Caer Konig founded by mountaineers from the Moonsea.
Easthaven founded by settlers from Cape Velen in Tethyr driven away by a thieves guild.
Goodmead founded by immigrants from Chult and the Vilhon Reach.
Lonelywood founded by a family from Urmlaspyr.
Termalaine founded by Calishite settlers.

Lazy design that every town is founded by newcomers from such far off places that they could never reasonably be expected to get there. How do a bunch of mountaineers travel from the Moonsea to Icewind Dale across thousands of miles of every terrain imaginable.




Then we have an awakened mammoth, awakened plesiosaurus, awakened sperm whale, awakened walrus, awakened wolf, awakened moose, awakened shrub. Could they not think of another way to add in interesting animals.



Then there is the chardalyns, what was originally black rocks and pebbles hidden in the lands around ascore that are brittle to the touch but can be used to store spells has morphed into a black crystal as hard as steel but easier to forge that can become infused with infernal or celestial energies and is created in huge and ever growing amounts in Icewind Dale by a laser obelisk mcguffin.
Could they not come up with a different name for crystalline substances that clearly have entirely different structural properties and are similar only in their colour.



And the Dwarven Valley is still the Dwarven Valley, after 20 novels, varying levels of elaboration in a half dozen sourcebooks, and now an entire adventure module, they still couldnt come up with a better name for a valley full of dwarves than the Dwarven Valley.



Its things like this that really irk me with the new edition, why create nuanced lore when you can be lazy and generic, why not reuse the same trope 30 times in the same adventure, why bother to properly name people and places when you can be childish or descriptive with the naming conventions (i'm surprised there is not a "Dwarfey" the dwarf or "Manny" the man, after all there is a "Grandolpha" the old duergar lady)

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sleyvas
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USA
9635 Posts

Posted - 06 Oct 2020 :  22:09:21  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

Just got a copy of Rime of the Frostmaiden, not happy with lore so far.

Caer Dinneval founded by the Dinev family from Cormyr.
Caer Konig founded by mountaineers from the Moonsea.
Easthaven founded by settlers from Cape Velen in Tethyr driven away by a thieves guild.
Goodmead founded by immigrants from Chult and the Vilhon Reach.
Lonelywood founded by a family from Urmlaspyr.
Termalaine founded by Calishite settlers.

Lazy design that every town is founded by newcomers from such far off places that they could never reasonably be expected to get there. How do a bunch of mountaineers travel from the Moonsea to Icewind Dale across thousands of miles of every terrain imaginable.




Then we have an awakened mammoth, awakened plesiosaurus, awakened sperm whale, awakened walrus, awakened wolf, awakened moose, awakened shrub. Could they not think of another way to add in interesting animals.



Then there is the chardalyns, what was originally black rocks and pebbles hidden in the lands around ascore that are brittle to the touch but can be used to store spells has morphed into a black crystal as hard as steel but easier to forge that can become infused with infernal or celestial energies and is created in huge and ever growing amounts in Icewind Dale by a laser obelisk mcguffin.
Could they not come up with a different name for crystalline substances that clearly have entirely different structural properties and are similar only in their colour.



And the Dwarven Valley is still the Dwarven Valley, after 20 novels, varying levels of elaboration in a half dozen sourcebooks, and now an entire adventure module, they still couldnt come up with a better name for a valley full of dwarves than the Dwarven Valley.



Its things like this that really irk me with the new edition, why create nuanced lore when you can be lazy and generic, why not reuse the same trope 30 times in the same adventure, why bother to properly name people and places when you can be childish or descriptive with the naming conventions (i'm surprised there is not a "Dwarfey" the dwarf or "Manny" the man, after all there is a "Grandolpha" the old duergar lady)



Agree on the multiple immigrants all from different areas.

On the awakened thing as well, while I enjoyed it to a degree, I couldn't help thinking "why would anyone waste the 1000 gp gem". I can see it happening to a limited degree. Of course, what will likely be said is that the person casting didn't have to use components.

Also, a lot of the quests are either insanely easy or make no sense (i.e. like some dwarves will spend a ton in gems to get a wagon load of iron ingots that cost less than the iron).

I'm still reading this adventure in between other things, so I'm just to the point to the nautiloid (which is cute and not scary at all except that they "released a bulette into the wild").

Also, they're doing things like "the sun hasn't come up for 2 years", and I can't help but think "they haven't all died or left yet?". The fix to this is pretty simple, just reduce the time.

Finally, there's an encounter that is probably hard (can't speak to it as I didn't look extensively at it, but was surprised that the damage wasn't high, etc...) for the character level against a representation of Auril. I'm not against that, because in my book that can be an avatar. If they kill the "avatar", then they stop all priests of Auril from getting spells for a year (until she can be reborn as a goddess). Personally, wouldn't be too upset except for that piece. I don't mind players taking on some kind of really weak avatar. I do mind that some low level players can stop a high priestess of Auril from getting her spells for a year.

Still, I don't want to be all negative. There's some things that look interesting. I just wish that for the storyline that this adventure wasn't built for higher level and thus more believable.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5986 Posts

Posted - 06 Oct 2020 :  23:23:47  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's a trend I've seen throughout the 5E run of FR "super" adventures: nods. As in nodding to the previous lore. Sometimes the nods are cool, sometimes they are ill-thought out, and sometimes they are cursory and shallow. It's that unevenness and inconsistency that I struggle with in this edition's products. That and the fact that the nods are just that and usually not well-explained, comprehensive or bedded down into "what has gone before". Throwing bones are the folks at WotC, throwing bones.

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Gary Dallison
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United Kingdom
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Posted - 07 Oct 2020 :  08:55:13  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
On the plus side there is now a wealth of information to build up icewind dale properly.

Knights of the black sword will work. Ignore the levistus angle (they love to force in stuff that doesnt fit). An intelligent black sword that has a cult grow around it in an isolated part of the world.
Why is it centred in the ruined caer, I'm going to presume it is historical and the black sword was owned by the dinevs and lost in the ruins when the orcs attacked.
Centuries later other humans arrive and discover it and we have a new secret organisation to spice up the region. What is the swords goal I wonder, what are its powers.

Will have to rework the chardalyn thing as a sagely mistake. The person that named the crystal mistakenly believed it was chardalyn, it is in fact a new substance, perhaps an evolution of chardalyn created by the netherese enclave and used to create / power their mythallar. When the enclave crashed the black crystal continued to grow, fed by the mythallar. Whenever a piece of the crystal is removed it also grows when in contact with high concentrations of magic. Or something like that. A chardalyn hybrid crystal that replicates itself.


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sleyvas
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USA
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Posted - 07 Oct 2020 :  12:14:53  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Or it could be that the Netherese simply didn't realize or possibly didn't document the ties between Chardalyn and the outer planes and only focues on its ability to store magical energy. It might be possible that we find out that a lot of these strange gems are just a variant of the same thing (for instance, down in the shining south there was that datharathi crystal.... over in Vaasa there's the Felliron .... there's a black obsidian like crystal in Maztica called plumastone... then there's "glassteel" which is a made crystal... the netherese were making darkswords (out of a black glass like material) for some Vaasans to get their loyalty). It might be worth a discussion to start gathering all this crystal data somewhere to discuss the various differences or similarities. After all, even in our own world, people thought one of the huge crystals on the crown of England was a ruby or something and it ends up being like an amethyst when they really look in modern day.

Thinking on it further, there's also the "black diamond" which is tied to Auril's holy symbol as well as the Queen of Air and Darkness and somewhat represented in Auril's 3rd form. There's also the shard (forget the name) that was stabbed into the Abyss. For non-canon stuff but which we know came from Ed via George's article on the Athora in Thay, it also appears to be a black metal instead of a crystal, but serves a similar purpose.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 07 Oct 2020 13:37:48
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Gary Dallison
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United Kingdom
5279 Posts

Posted - 07 Oct 2020 :  14:13:31  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sounds like they ran out of colours for evil things.

My big problem with making things the same is that the icewind dale chardalyn and the netheril chardalyn have different physical properties which is a big clue that they are different materials.

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Lord Karsus
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Posted - 07 Oct 2020 :  15:52:55  Show Profile Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-Rather than make up some new magical crystal, would've been cool to see if it somehow could have been instead linked to the magical purple crystals from Vaelen that were related to Pandorym. Not that I am a big fan of that whole story but (A) it was very random and still kind of sticks out like a sore thumb so additional lore connecting that to the Realms at large would help smooth that and (B) Pandorym exhibited the ability to control in some capacity time/space, so if these black crystals/obelisk have some kind of time travel capabilities, there's a connection there as well.

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sleyvas
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USA
9635 Posts

Posted - 07 Oct 2020 :  20:09:50  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

Sounds like they ran out of colours for evil things.

My big problem with making things the same is that the icewind dale chardalyn and the netheril chardalyn have different physical properties which is a big clue that they are different materials.



Sadly, I agree, and show me any time they've ever really kept the rules the same between editions for materials. Its exceptionally rare, and I get really irritated with it too (moreso with more common stuff like adamantine and mithril). I'd have been just as fine if the stuff had been Datharathi crystal, or felliron, etc... (felliron would have needed some explanation for region and maybe timeframe since its mined from Telos, similar with Datharathi crystal since its from Pandorym but its a little more feasible as it was defined as extradimensional). However, all they need to do is say that Chardalyn crystal can also hold spells and it would work.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
9635 Posts

Posted - 07 Oct 2020 :  20:15:56  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-Rather than make up some new magical crystal, would've been cool to see if it somehow could have been instead linked to the magical purple crystals from Vaelen that were related to Pandorym. Not that I am a big fan of that whole story but (A) it was very random and still kind of sticks out like a sore thumb so additional lore connecting that to the Realms at large would help smooth that and (B) Pandorym exhibited the ability to control in some capacity time/space, so if these black crystals/obelisk have some kind of time travel capabilities, there's a connection there as well.



That's datharathi crystal (also called plangent crystal)... there was also a hint that linked them to the Curna Emeralds found in the same region I think in the 4e campaign guide or maybe the 3e shining south. So, if they can appear as both purple stones and green stones, nothing says they couldn't have had a black stone as well. That being said, they would then need an explanation for why that crystal is also tied to the crystal shard (since the storyline is that the crystal shard created all that chardalyn). Not insurmountable mind you.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
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USA
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Posted - 08 Oct 2020 :  16:08:53  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Man, I'm currently relooking at our own thread here for brainstorming anchorome (I wanted to make a list of generic monsters that we were talking about like giant woodpeckers, etc..), and I can't help but notice some of the things we've mentioned there in this adventure (such as an awakened moose, etc...). I'll say while some of the things in this adventure (mainly the stuff like each village having to be immigrants from some specific place in faerun) hit my "why" button... it does look like a "fun" adventure, and it does look like the people there are at least coming here and possibly listening for ideas. I know we all love lore and backstory, but a lot of times the players just don't give a flying fart about that stuff. I really need to finish off reading the module, but I've got other stuff I want to work on, maybe later tonight.

Oh, and I'll say, I kind of liked the ghost giant imagery that was given in one section.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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PattPlays
Learned Scribe

162 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2020 :  03:42:53  Show Profile  Visit PattPlays's Homepage Send PattPlays a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

I know we all love lore and backstory, but a lot of times the players just don't give a flying fart about that stuff. I really need to finish off reading the module, but I've got other stuff I want to work on, maybe later tonight.

Honestly I'm interested to see how much fun people have with those hidden backstories. I mean, come on! Having a PC be a Slaad is CLASSIC!

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sleyvas
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Posted - 09 Oct 2020 :  14:40:06  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I just read and liked the splintered off tower from the enclave that's buried upside down. The one thing I'd say is that the special illusion machine needs charges or something, but other than that, I liked the story.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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PattPlays
Learned Scribe

162 Posts

Posted - 10 Oct 2020 :  02:51:42  Show Profile  Visit PattPlays's Homepage Send PattPlays a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

I just read and liked the splintered off tower from the enclave that's buried upside down. The one thing I'd say is that the special illusion machine needs charges or something, but other than that, I liked the story.

What do you think of the player character secrets and the MYTHAL that they have in there?

Is.. is it canonical that Mythals can have a save vs what is effectively obliteration when touched?

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

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Posted - 10 Oct 2020 :  04:19:18  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

I just read and liked the splintered off tower from the enclave that's buried upside down. The one thing I'd say is that the special illusion machine needs charges or something, but other than that, I liked the story.

What do you think of the player character secrets and the MYTHAL that they have in there?

Is.. is it canonical that Mythals can have a save vs what is effectively obliteration when touched?



Are you talking about a mythal or a mythallar? Two very different critters, there.

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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1748 Posts

Posted - 10 Oct 2020 :  06:15:20  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So, the Alagondar scion endep up in Icewind Dale, instead of doing stuff, you know, in Neverwinter... well, at least they didn't ignored that bit of lore and just gave it an illogical treatment.


Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 10 Oct 2020 06:15:42
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PattPlays
Learned Scribe

162 Posts

Posted - 10 Oct 2020 :  09:24:49  Show Profile  Visit PattPlays's Homepage Send PattPlays a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

So, the Alagondar scion endep up in Icewind Dale, instead of doing stuff, you know, in Neverwinter... well, at least they didn't ignored that bit of lore and just gave it an illogical treatment.



What's the history there? Perhaps they had some Neverwinter content online that was scrapped, and someone at WOTC rescued them from being completely abandoned.

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