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Seethyr
Senior Scribe

USA
897 Posts

Posted - 28 Sep 2020 :  17:18:25  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I kind of wanted to open up a part of the forum for discussing Rime of the Forstmaiden and its implications with the assumption that everyone who looks at the thread has already read through it. If you are planning on playing the adventure, by all that is holy, please stop reading now!

Anyway, some of the implications in the adventure are incredibly exciting or terrifying depending on your standpoint and preferences. Some of those ideas have been discussed in other threads as well and I will try not to rehash them.

Some of the main things I am focused on are the following, but please feel free to add to this!

1. Creating magen (what a cool concept to bring from Mystara!)
2. Vecna???? Vecna was in the Realms at some point?
3. The black obelisks as a reset (I think other threads discussed this a bit)
4. Are there other flying cities that crashed in off the charts regions we don't know about? That would be a fun homebrew. (hrmmm Maztica, Lopango, Anchorome, Katashaka anyone?)
5. Combine Scroll of the Comet and the Tarrasque Summoning and your 12th level PCs are suddenly leveling a city.

Reading through that last adventure chapter really made me feel like the authors just went no-holds barred gonzo style writing which I was initially horrified by, but now I am thinking is actually pretty cool. the adventure brought back a sense of wonder for magic for me that has been lacking recently because of how carefully controlled all the balance issues are in 5e. I found myself excited once again that there is magic out there beyond the bounds of CR vs Party Level balance. It can wreck a game, or make it infinitely more exciting. But that is just my opinion. What is yours?

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Edited by - Seethyr on 28 Sep 2020 17:20:03

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34002 Posts

Posted - 28 Sep 2020 :  17:45:36  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr


4. Are there other flying cities that crashed in off the charts regions we don't know about? That would be a fun homebrew. (hrmmm Maztica, Lopango, Anchorome, Katashaka anyone?)



I think we've only gotten explicit information on like 6 or 7 of the flying enclaves, and even one of those is just a rumor.

I personally think it quite likely that they were scattered all over Toril. Once aloft, there was no reason for them to stay in one area.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 28 Sep 2020 17:46:47
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Seethyr
Senior Scribe

USA
897 Posts

Posted - 28 Sep 2020 :  18:49:37  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr


4. Are there other flying cities that crashed in off the charts regions we don't know about? That would be a fun homebrew. (hrmmm Maztica, Lopango, Anchorome, Katashaka anyone?)



I think we've only gotten explicit information on like 6 or 7 of the flying enclaves, and even one of those is just a rumor.

I personally think it quite likely that they were scattered all over Toril. Once aloft, there was no reason for them to stay in one area.



Well that certainly opens up a wealth of adventure sites, and incredibly interesting ones for higher levels at that.

I recently went back through Arcane Age's Netheril supplement and found dozens of ideas that could stretch into the modern age. I can't pick out though, if the flying enclaves mentioned in the sourcebook were the grand sum of all enclaves or not. I seem to remember a passage that said something like there being others off to the north. I wonder if others went in other directions.

Follow the Maztica (Aztec/Maya) and Anchorome (Indigenous North America) Campaigns on DMsGuild!

The Maztica Campaign
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1748 Posts

Posted - 28 Sep 2020 :  18:53:58  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr

If you are planning on playing the adventure, by all that is holy, please stop reading now!



Unless you are like myself, who loves spoilers.

I have not read the adventure yet, but...

quote:

2. Vecna???? Vecna was in the Realms at some point?


Seems they want Vecna to be in all the campaign settings...

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
9635 Posts

Posted - 28 Sep 2020 :  19:34:09  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr


4. Are there other flying cities that crashed in off the charts regions we don't know about? That would be a fun homebrew. (hrmmm Maztica, Lopango, Anchorome, Katashaka anyone?)



I think we've only gotten explicit information on like 6 or 7 of the flying enclaves, and even one of those is just a rumor.

I personally think it quite likely that they were scattered all over Toril. Once aloft, there was no reason for them to stay in one area.



Well that certainly opens up a wealth of adventure sites, and incredibly interesting ones for higher levels at that.

I recently went back through Arcane Age's Netheril supplement and found dozens of ideas that could stretch into the modern age. I can't pick out though, if the flying enclaves mentioned in the sourcebook were the grand sum of all enclaves or not. I seem to remember a passage that said something like there being others off to the north. I wonder if others went in other directions.



Not that it would be amazing, but I've always suspected that the reason the "migration" to Halruaa happened was that there were already enclaves there and so people knew it was a place to head that they'd already explored and possibly even fortified. It might be interesting too if whatever smacked into Halruaa creating Lake Halruaa actually kept up a local weave when Mystryl's weave failed.

On other enclaves on other continents... between that and spelljammers, there's a lot of stuff we can do. That's why I'm surprised people keep going back to the same areas.

There is one thing I will say about rime of the frostmaiden that's irking me though. The idea that the harpers, the zhents, etc... have posted all kinds of spies up in Ten Towns is about as believable to me as the idea that elves fart (I mean, come on, we all know elves don't fart. They express scents that smell like maple and cinammon and stuff :-) ).

I'm also skipping ahead in the book and finding things that I find funny because we've talked about them here. Not that anyone stole an idea, just that we're using same tropes. I saw some stuff with a cloning chamber mentioned in an enclave and was like "I was talking about that last month". I think somewhere else there was an illusion coming to life.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Seethyr
Senior Scribe

USA
897 Posts

Posted - 28 Sep 2020 :  19:56:13  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

On other enclaves on other continents... between that and spelljammers, there's a lot of stuff we can do. That's why I'm surprised people keep going back to the same areas.




Amen to this. That is part of what I love about Rime (and to a lesser extent Descent, even though in part it covers a highly explored area of the Realms).

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TheIriaeban
Senior Scribe

USA
462 Posts

Posted - 28 Sep 2020 :  20:02:01  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Not that it would be amazing, but I've always suspected that the reason the "migration" to Halruaa happened was that there were already enclaves there and so people knew it was a place to head that they'd already explored and possibly even fortified. It might be interesting too if whatever smacked into Halruaa creating Lake Halruaa actually kept up a local weave when Mystryl's weave failed.

On other enclaves on other continents... between that and spelljammers, there's a lot of stuff we can do. That's why I'm surprised people keep going back to the same areas.

There is one thing I will say about rime of the frostmaiden that's irking me though. The idea that the harpers, the zhents, etc... have posted all kinds of spies up in Ten Towns is about as believable to me as the idea that elves fart (I mean, come on, we all know elves don't fart. They express scents that smell like maple and cinammon and stuff :-) ).

I'm also skipping ahead in the book and finding things that I find funny because we've talked about them here. Not that anyone stole an idea, just that we're using same tropes. I saw some stuff with a cloning chamber mentioned in an enclave and was like "I was talking about that last month". I think somewhere else there was an illusion coming to life.



There was something about an illusion coming to life that was named Ry'mer. He hung out with a human, a wereleopard/werepanther, and a warforged. I believe they were somewhere near the Great Rift.

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34002 Posts

Posted - 28 Sep 2020 :  20:58:11  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


There is one thing I will say about rime of the frostmaiden that's irking me though. The idea that the harpers, the zhents, etc... have posted all kinds of spies up in Ten Towns is about as believable to me as the idea that elves fart (I mean, come on, we all know elves don't fart. They express scents that smell like maple and cinammon and stuff :-) ).



It's a side-effect of WotC's heavy-handed "factions" approach: most, if not all factions have to be active everywhere, so the Adventurer's League players always have a reason to go do whatever. It wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't for WotC ignoring all the other factions of the Realms to focus on a small group of them -- but WotC doesn't like that idea, because then a player's faction might not be involved.

So every faction is involved, everywhere. Never mind the fact that some factions would have no logical reason to be in location X or involved with event Y... WotC cares as much for logic as it does for maintaining canon: not at all.


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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
9635 Posts

Posted - 28 Sep 2020 :  22:36:22  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

On other enclaves on other continents... between that and spelljammers, there's a lot of stuff we can do. That's why I'm surprised people keep going back to the same areas.




Amen to this. That is part of what I love about Rime (and to a lesser extent Descent, even though in part it covers a highly explored area of the Realms).



One of my ideas, that I have decided I probably won't use, but it intrigued me anyway... was for Katashaka and to have it that in the moments following the spellplague when Katashaka transfers to Abeir, magic was in flux. In those moments, high in the sky above Katashaka was a tsunami spelljammer with its attendant locusts in combat with 3 shou dragonships. Suddenly all of these ships go plummeting from the sky, but before they crash they start functioning. The problem for them comes in that they were in the sky above the area I was calling Manu Ni Maloa, Land of the Nyama-Nummo and a giant creature mistook the animalistic looking tsunami and dragon ships to be invaders of their territory. The ships were attacked and forced to crash land, and so the people of Shou and Wa were forced to become allies in a harsh jungle land. The crew consisted of humans, but also hengeyokai, spirit folk, and even some ogre magi who were acting as spies aboard the ship. The ogre magi are discovered as their disguises fade when magic fails, and they flee the wreckage. They end up discovering a nearby community known as "The Wilderlands of the Green Empress", in which a small society of druidic green hags rule over monstrosities like girallons, flying monkeys, and neshezu and worship a darker aspect of both Nula and Watil, as well as having shrines to Demogorgon and summoning bar-lgura that they mate with. They also have vicious scarecrow and animated "Hishnahide" constructs that patrol the jungle. They also awaken numerous animals and plants within the jungle to be their eyes and ears. They were in conflict with the lionmen of the savannah outside the jungle. The ogre magi get accepted into their society as mates as well. Meanwhile, the Kara-Turans develop a few scattered villages connected by stone of a pale yellow color which becomes known as "The Jungles of the Jade Sovereignty" and their main city is made of a greenish stone. The hints to the wizard of Oz should be obvious.

To add to that idea, including green skinned magen constructs to one side or the other (even if they're different kinds of magen) could prove interesting. If for instance the Kara-Turans had this knowledge available to them, I can see it instrumental in protecting their society especially in its fledgling years, especially if their ships had been loaded down with treasure to return to their emperors. But then again, perhaps a better use would be that the hags actually house themselves within a netherese enclave and THEY have the magens. Perhaps the Kara-Turans actually recover the spell and can actually decipher it whereas the other cultures can't.

I'm still kind of intrigued with trying to find a way to make the reference if we can make the "dark side" exceptionally dark (i.e. picturing numerous hags, led by a very powerful druidess hag serving Nula, a very power cleric hag serving Watil, a very powerful warlock hag serving Demogorgon, and maybe a very powerful wizard or sorcerer hag). Having this society being bloodthirsty and more interested in raiding other cultures of Katashaka for sacrifices, food, wealth, etc... I could even see having multiple types of hags in a gathered community (maybe they have sea hags and the jungle butts to the ocean).

I was actually going to have this group opposed by the Cult of Camazotz with its bainligor bat folk serving a gigantic bat nyama-nummo. There would be multiple other things like this, with evil working against evil.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 28 Sep 2020 22:56:56
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
9635 Posts

Posted - 28 Sep 2020 :  23:24:33  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Not that it would be amazing, but I've always suspected that the reason the "migration" to Halruaa happened was that there were already enclaves there and so people knew it was a place to head that they'd already explored and possibly even fortified. It might be interesting too if whatever smacked into Halruaa creating Lake Halruaa actually kept up a local weave when Mystryl's weave failed.

On other enclaves on other continents... between that and spelljammers, there's a lot of stuff we can do. That's why I'm surprised people keep going back to the same areas.

There is one thing I will say about rime of the frostmaiden that's irking me though. The idea that the harpers, the zhents, etc... have posted all kinds of spies up in Ten Towns is about as believable to me as the idea that elves fart (I mean, come on, we all know elves don't fart. They express scents that smell like maple and cinammon and stuff :-) ).

I'm also skipping ahead in the book and finding things that I find funny because we've talked about them here. Not that anyone stole an idea, just that we're using same tropes. I saw some stuff with a cloning chamber mentioned in an enclave and was like "I was talking about that last month". I think somewhere else there was an illusion coming to life.



There was something about an illusion coming to life that was named Ry'mer. He hung out with a human, a wereleopard/werepanther, and a warforged. I believe they were somewhere near the Great Rift.



Lol, seriously? I make a reference to the wizard of Oz and this one's "the lion, the tin man, Dorothy"... guessing the illusion would be the scarecrow that develops intelligence? Just wondering if you know what that was in? If its an actual Faerunian realms reference, it would be better with a helmed horror or a nimblewright that gains free will.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 28 Sep 2020 23:28:23
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5986 Posts

Posted - 29 Sep 2020 :  00:03:09  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I personally think it quite likely that they were scattered all over Toril. Once aloft, there was no reason for them to stay in one area.



Well, other than to feed themselves.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5986 Posts

Posted - 29 Sep 2020 :  00:05:17  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Not that it would be amazing, but I've always suspected that the reason the "migration" to Halruaa happened was that there were already enclaves there and so people knew it was a place to head that they'd already explored and possibly even fortified. It might be interesting too if whatever smacked into Halruaa creating Lake Halruaa actually kept up a local weave when Mystryl's weave failed.




Except that it was the "no flying enclave cities" Low Netherese who built skyships and travelled there.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34002 Posts

Posted - 29 Sep 2020 :  00:42:35  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I personally think it quite likely that they were scattered all over Toril. Once aloft, there was no reason for them to stay in one area.



Well, other than to feed themselves.

-- George Krashos



They had magic to put cities in the air -- they had the means of either A) moving foodstuffs from Low Netheril to their new location, or B) clearing out some new farmlands, putting some farmers there, and then staying in that general vicinity.

Ed even spoke on this recently, on the Twitter:

quote:
Here’s the thing: at the height of the “empire” of Netheril, Netheril consisted of many enclaves, a lot of them what are now referred to as “flying cities” (which, yes, fly about and so are mobile), created by Netherese archwizards. They all had wards or mythals or other magic arrangements to alter their local environments to what the creators wanted (even if it was just tinkering with ambient temperature and acting as a local umbrella).

Looking back, we now refer to these enclaves as “High Netheril,” and the ground farms and forests and lakes that provided the enclaves with fuel and food and other raw materials as “Low Netheril.”

The city of Thultanthar (aka “Shade”) was one such flying city enclave among many, and despite their self-aggrandizing propaganda, not mightier than most other Netherese cities; its “Princes” were mighty Netherese archwizards, but not necessarily the mightiest. And they were the only enclave often found in Anauroch.

As most of the enclaves were mobile, they could travel nigh anywhere (that then-mighty elves, dragons, and giants wouldn’t react with hostility when they showed up, that is). So there needn’t be an Anauroch connection with Thultanthar, and Thultanthar isn’t Netheril, any more than, say, real-world Poughkeepsie is all of the United States. It’s logical that a surviving Netherese city not known to the wider public in Toril today would be “hidden” in a remote and inhospitable locale, or folk would have “found” and identified (and likely occupied) it long ago.
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
9635 Posts

Posted - 29 Sep 2020 :  02:05:03  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Not that it would be amazing, but I've always suspected that the reason the "migration" to Halruaa happened was that there were already enclaves there and so people knew it was a place to head that they'd already explored and possibly even fortified. It might be interesting too if whatever smacked into Halruaa creating Lake Halruaa actually kept up a local weave when Mystryl's weave failed.




Except that it was the "no flying enclave cities" Low Netherese who built skyships and travelled there.

-- George Krashos



Doesn't mean that the high fliers hadn't already discovered and relayed information (and possibly even setup some ground facilities there as well for all we know).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 29 Sep 2020 02:14:49
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
9635 Posts

Posted - 29 Sep 2020 :  02:12:53  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I personally think it quite likely that they were scattered all over Toril. Once aloft, there was no reason for them to stay in one area.



Well, other than to feed themselves.

-- George Krashos



Feeding themselves wouldn't be a problem with magic.

That does bring up one thing though that this particular adventure does show a little of but should be showing more of. Magic items that summon food for individuals are something that people often overlook, and people in the realms as a result can survive through droughts, famines, etc... that would be a major problem for people of our own world. It would be an interesting discussion to figure out the many ways that magic could help a starving people in an area where the sun's not shining (by either directly supplying food, creating portals to where food is to harvest or hunt, or simply using magic to make someone's body act as though its fully nourished).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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TheIriaeban
Senior Scribe

USA
462 Posts

Posted - 29 Sep 2020 :  02:40:56  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Not that it would be amazing, but I've always suspected that the reason the "migration" to Halruaa happened was that there were already enclaves there and so people knew it was a place to head that they'd already explored and possibly even fortified. It might be interesting too if whatever smacked into Halruaa creating Lake Halruaa actually kept up a local weave when Mystryl's weave failed.

On other enclaves on other continents... between that and spelljammers, there's a lot of stuff we can do. That's why I'm surprised people keep going back to the same areas.

There is one thing I will say about rime of the frostmaiden that's irking me though. The idea that the harpers, the zhents, etc... have posted all kinds of spies up in Ten Towns is about as believable to me as the idea that elves fart (I mean, come on, we all know elves don't fart. They express scents that smell like maple and cinammon and stuff :-) ).

I'm also skipping ahead in the book and finding things that I find funny because we've talked about them here. Not that anyone stole an idea, just that we're using same tropes. I saw some stuff with a cloning chamber mentioned in an enclave and was like "I was talking about that last month". I think somewhere else there was an illusion coming to life.



There was something about an illusion coming to life that was named Ry'mer. He hung out with a human, a wereleopard/werepanther, and a warforged. I believe they were somewhere near the Great Rift.



Lol, seriously? I make a reference to the wizard of Oz and this one's "the lion, the tin man, Dorothy"... guessing the illusion would be the scarecrow that develops intelligence? Just wondering if you know what that was in? If its an actual Faerunian realms reference, it would be better with a helmed horror or a nimblewright that gains free will.



Actually, that is a Red Dwarf reference (a comedy show courtesy of those mad blokes at the BBC). Rimmer was a hologram (i.e. illusion). Joining him was a human, a partially-cat person, and a robot. Helmed Horrors can't talk so the next best thing is a warforged. And to reference the Dwarf part, I put them near the Great Rift.

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
9635 Posts

Posted - 29 Sep 2020 :  18:43:55  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Seethyr,

So, in the other thread about spelljamming, I was just talking about the idea that the island known as the Ship of the Gods which had seemingly disappeared from 4e maps, and I was posing the idea that perhaps the spelljamming vessel previously used by the Mulhorandi gods known as the Matet was once again joined with the artifact known as the Beacon of Light from Volo's Guide to All Things Magical while on Abeir and that's possibly how all the godkings are now returned again as noted in the SCAG.

That kind of got me thinking about the idea yet again that maybe the gods were over in Abeir in avatar/lesser avatar/manifestation type form, and I know you had written up that the Maztican gods weren't there, but I just thought about floating one idea your way, since everything is always uncertain narrator and seemingly you were fine with Intiri being over there. You had fleshed out Mount Mixhuacan as a possible spelljamming place up in the mountains. We've established what appear to be links between Qotal and Ubtao. Ubtao is missing and so is his whole city of Mezro. This also got me to thinking about your entry of Mount Mixhuacan having these "natican lines" that form some kind of giant symbol/mazes/runes. What if the city of Mezro (which is also linked to mazes) is some kind of "spelljammer"/"plane travelling" city and its been transported here during the time that they were on Abeir? Maybe Qotal returned to his select people only in the city of Tukan when he was needed. Maybe he's been hiding out in Tehwaca the city of the gods while working against the other primordials (assuming that Ubtao is actually a primordial as the 4e campaign setting suggests and its not just another case of those in the know being wrong again). It would actually fit with the prophecies of Qotal returning as well.

To note, if this is the case, on this other world, the divine rules from the Time of Trouble might have been in play. In other words, his priests couldn't get spells unless they were within X distance of his physical form.

Similarly, I know in your maztica guide you also made a hint that the Maztican gods came to Maztica via "the Great Skyhome" pyramid ship also via wildspace. Why the heck not use this reference for something fun rather than tease it. Heck maybe both Kukul and Maztica are back, just like Ra is returned, because new "manifestations" of them all were sent over to protect their people. I could definitely get into more of "the gods are in their special cities and their priests have to bring them gifts to prove their subservience".

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 29 Sep 2020 19:19:54
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Seethyr
Senior Scribe

USA
897 Posts

Posted - 29 Sep 2020 :  23:32:52  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Seethyr,

So, in the other thread about spelljamming, I was just talking about the idea that the island known as the Ship of the Gods which had seemingly disappeared from 4e maps, and I was posing the idea that perhaps the spelljamming vessel previously used by the Mulhorandi gods known as the Matet was once again joined with the artifact known as the Beacon of Light from Volo's Guide to All Things Magical while on Abeir and that's possibly how all the godkings are now returned again as noted in the SCAG.




Oh what a cool angle. There seems to be no better canonical explanation as to how they came back. Ao's will or somesuch? No matter what or why this seems like a nice vehicle to explain it away. I wish someone would ask Ed what exactly has become of the Beacon of Light these days.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

That kind of got me thinking about the idea yet again that maybe the gods were over in Abeir in avatar/lesser avatar/manifestation type form, and I know you had written up that the Maztican gods weren't there, but I just thought about floating one idea your way, since everything is always uncertain narrator and seemingly you were fine with Intiri being over there. You had fleshed out Mount Mixhuacan as a possible spelljamming place up in the mountains. We've established what appear to be links between Qotal and Ubtao. Ubtao is missing and so is his whole city of Mezro.


This also got me to thinking about your entry of Mount Mixhuacan having these "natican lines" that form some kind of giant symbol/mazes/runes. What if the city of Mezro (which is also linked to mazes) is some kind of "spelljammer"/"plane travelling" city and its been transported here during the time that they were on Abeir? Maybe Qotal returned to his select people only in the city of Tukan when he was needed. Maybe he's been hiding out in Tehwaca the city of the gods while working against the other primordials (assuming that Ubtao is actually a primordial as the 4e campaign setting suggests and its not just another case of those in the know being wrong again). It would actually fit with the prophecies of Qotal returning as well.





I really fear touching on this because it gets me out of my element and delves into lands I know less about than Maztica by a factor of about 10000. I also fear getting trounced on by canon which doesn't seem to be a problem when I avoid the more cosmic sized and metaphysical issues and stick to the True World. Chult is popular and getting revisitied relatively often. Maztica, not so much.

On the other hand, you inadvertently brushed up against the reason I have yet to revisit Lopango. I want Mount Mixhuacan to have a good Spelljamming presence like I had originally done in 3e, but I am waiting for some official SJ rules so I can do a better job. If one of these "three old settings" does happen to be Spelljammer, I want to revisit this bigtime.


quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Similarly, I know in your maztica guide you also made a hint that the Maztican gods came to Maztica via "the Great Skyhome" pyramid ship also via wildspace. Why the heck not use this reference for something fun rather than tease it. Heck maybe both Kukul and Maztica are back, just like Ra is returned, because new "manifestations" of them all were sent over to protect their people. I could definitely get into more of "the gods are in their special cities and their priests have to bring them gifts to prove their subservience".




I know this concept was kind of a blatant rip off the Egyptian gods, but it seemed feasible. When I originally wrote about this, I wanted to somehow connect the current location of the Great Skyhome to an underwater (in the deepest of trenches) location near the dagon worshiping Shalarin of the Sea of Corynactis and somehow also work the titan sea-scorpionfolk race known as the palophonti in (as guardians perhaps - leading to a tie in with the CANON tlincalli deities Huoxopica and Ixtilli).

Anyway, pardon my bizarre ramblings here, you just entered areas that have been bouncing around in my brain for quite some time now.

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Seethyr
Senior Scribe

USA
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Posted - 30 Sep 2020 :  02:41:22  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Loosely related, I tried to update other magen from Mystara (their original home). These are magen from the Mystara MC and Dungeon Magazine 53.

http://www.thepiazza.org.uk/bb/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=25235&start=25

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
9635 Posts

Posted - 30 Sep 2020 :  03:56:43  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Seethyr,

So, in the other thread about spelljamming, I was just talking about the idea that the island known as the Ship of the Gods which had seemingly disappeared from 4e maps, and I was posing the idea that perhaps the spelljamming vessel previously used by the Mulhorandi gods known as the Matet was once again joined with the artifact known as the Beacon of Light from Volo's Guide to All Things Magical while on Abeir and that's possibly how all the godkings are now returned again as noted in the SCAG.




Oh what a cool angle. There seems to be no better canonical explanation as to how they came back. Ao's will or somesuch? No matter what or why this seems like a nice vehicle to explain it away. I wish someone would ask Ed what exactly has become of the Beacon of Light these days.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

That kind of got me thinking about the idea yet again that maybe the gods were over in Abeir in avatar/lesser avatar/manifestation type form, and I know you had written up that the Maztican gods weren't there, but I just thought about floating one idea your way, since everything is always uncertain narrator and seemingly you were fine with Intiri being over there. You had fleshed out Mount Mixhuacan as a possible spelljamming place up in the mountains. We've established what appear to be links between Qotal and Ubtao. Ubtao is missing and so is his whole city of Mezro.


This also got me to thinking about your entry of Mount Mixhuacan having these "natican lines" that form some kind of giant symbol/mazes/runes. What if the city of Mezro (which is also linked to mazes) is some kind of "spelljammer"/"plane travelling" city and its been transported here during the time that they were on Abeir? Maybe Qotal returned to his select people only in the city of Tukan when he was needed. Maybe he's been hiding out in Tehwaca the city of the gods while working against the other primordials (assuming that Ubtao is actually a primordial as the 4e campaign setting suggests and its not just another case of those in the know being wrong again). It would actually fit with the prophecies of Qotal returning as well.





I really fear touching on this because it gets me out of my element and delves into lands I know less about than Maztica by a factor of about 10000. I also fear getting trounced on by canon which doesn't seem to be a problem when I avoid the more cosmic sized and metaphysical issues and stick to the True World. Chult is popular and getting revisitied relatively often. Maztica, not so much.

On the other hand, you inadvertently brushed up against the reason I have yet to revisit Lopango. I want Mount Mixhuacan to have a good Spelljamming presence like I had originally done in 3e, but I am waiting for some official SJ rules so I can do a better job. If one of these "three old settings" does happen to be Spelljammer, I want to revisit this bigtime.


quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Similarly, I know in your maztica guide you also made a hint that the Maztican gods came to Maztica via "the Great Skyhome" pyramid ship also via wildspace. Why the heck not use this reference for something fun rather than tease it. Heck maybe both Kukul and Maztica are back, just like Ra is returned, because new "manifestations" of them all were sent over to protect their people. I could definitely get into more of "the gods are in their special cities and their priests have to bring them gifts to prove their subservience".




I know this concept was kind of a blatant rip off the Egyptian gods, but it seemed feasible. When I originally wrote about this, I wanted to somehow connect the current location of the Great Skyhome to an underwater (in the deepest of trenches) location near the dagon worshiping Shalarin of the Sea of Corynactis and somehow also work the titan sea-scorpionfolk race known as the palophonti in (as guardians perhaps - leading to a tie in with the CANON tlincalli deities Huoxopica and Ixtilli).

Anyway, pardon my bizarre ramblings here, you just entered areas that have been bouncing around in my brain for quite some time now.



I get the worry on using Mezro as a ship. Yeah, that MIGHT get some clarity. Thanks on liking the idea of the Matet to bring back the godkings. Oh, and never ask me to forgive bizarre ramblings, because I know I go off on tangents left and right. Oh, and speaking of that, you hit on something that's been bouncing with me... I too want to explore the sea of corynactis, but I don't have anything solid in mind yet.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Prodigalson
Acolyte

USA
10 Posts

Posted - 30 Sep 2020 :  16:31:29  Show Profile Send Prodigalson a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I was wondering if they planned on using Vecna and the obelisks to do a time reset for the Forgotten Realms. They could reset to a different time, for instance back to an earlier time like prior to the Time of Troubles for the entire setting. It seems interestingly placed in every book for it to never be used for a cross-campaign idea.
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Seethyr
Senior Scribe

USA
897 Posts

Posted - 30 Sep 2020 :  17:48:07  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Prodigalson

I was wondering if they planned on using Vecna and the obelisks to do a time reset for the Forgotten Realms. They could reset to a different time, for instance back to an earlier time like prior to the Time of Troubles for the entire setting. It seems interestingly placed in every book for it to never be used for a cross-campaign idea.



I wonder what time travel rules they will use too. Are we talking Avengers or Hot Tub Time Machine/Back to the Future?

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Prodigalson
Acolyte

USA
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Posted - 30 Sep 2020 :  19:31:14  Show Profile Send Prodigalson a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It could also be a WOW: Caverns of Time type of situation. Your players activate it and BOOM, they are back there and the obelisks are gone. Welcome to the Time of Troubles Modules. Could redo old story modules for 5e going forward, or use it as a full setting reset. These appear to use completely different rules and magic then the stuff from the Netheril Boxed set from the old days.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 30 Sep 2020 :  22:47:59  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think, at most, the time travel thing is a future setup, and that the intent is for it to be a major part of a later adventure.

While I, personally, would prefer to see a reset to the Realms, I recognize just how problematic that would be -- and given the current design team's willingness to disregard prior canon (and their willingness to import from other settings!), there really isn't much need for them to do a reset. They're picking and choosing what canon to use or ignore as it is, and they already did the Sundering and launched the subsequent Era of Vagueness to refuse giving a definitive answer to anything.

There's really no benefit, given their current approach, to rebooting the setting.

Therefore, I think there's going to be some major nastybad that the PCs have to go back to Netheril to be able to defeat. Maybe they've got to get some item or spell from then, or maybe they've got to do some action that will stack things in their favor, later... Pick your plot from Chrono Trigger, it'll be one of those things. This is where my money is, on this one.

(This is not a bash, aside from bemoaning the current lack of information. There's more reason not to reboot than there is reason to reboot, and Chrono Trigger was an awesome game with a lot of time travel elements that likely did not originate in that game and that make sense to re-use)

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
9635 Posts

Posted - 30 Sep 2020 :  23:22:09  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I think, at most, the time travel thing is a future setup, and that the intent is for it to be a major part of a later adventure.

While I, personally, would prefer to see a reset to the Realms, I recognize just how problematic that would be -- and given the current design team's willingness to disregard prior canon (and their willingness to import from other settings!), there really isn't much need for them to do a reset. They're picking and choosing what canon to use or ignore as it is, and they already did the Sundering and launched the subsequent Era of Vagueness to refuse giving a definitive answer to anything.

There's really no benefit, given their current approach, to rebooting the setting.

Therefore, I think there's going to be some major nastybad that the PCs have to go back to Netheril to be able to defeat. Maybe they've got to get some item or spell from then, or maybe they've got to do some action that will stack things in their favor, later... Pick your plot from Chrono Trigger, it'll be one of those things. This is where my money is, on this one.

(This is not a bash, aside from bemoaning the current lack of information. There's more reason not to reboot than there is reason to reboot, and Chrono Trigger was an awesome game with a lot of time travel elements that likely did not originate in that game and that make sense to re-use)



Maybe someone else will go back in the past and cast Karsus' Avatar but choose a different target.... and that's how Talos came to be.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34002 Posts

Posted - 01 Oct 2020 :  00:24:34  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I think, at most, the time travel thing is a future setup, and that the intent is for it to be a major part of a later adventure.

While I, personally, would prefer to see a reset to the Realms, I recognize just how problematic that would be -- and given the current design team's willingness to disregard prior canon (and their willingness to import from other settings!), there really isn't much need for them to do a reset. They're picking and choosing what canon to use or ignore as it is, and they already did the Sundering and launched the subsequent Era of Vagueness to refuse giving a definitive answer to anything.

There's really no benefit, given their current approach, to rebooting the setting.

Therefore, I think there's going to be some major nastybad that the PCs have to go back to Netheril to be able to defeat. Maybe they've got to get some item or spell from then, or maybe they've got to do some action that will stack things in their favor, later... Pick your plot from Chrono Trigger, it'll be one of those things. This is where my money is, on this one.

(This is not a bash, aside from bemoaning the current lack of information. There's more reason not to reboot than there is reason to reboot, and Chrono Trigger was an awesome game with a lot of time travel elements that likely did not originate in that game and that make sense to re-use)



Maybe someone else will go back in the past and cast Karsus' Avatar but choose a different target.... and that's how Talos came to be.



I don't see WotC using a change the past option -- unless the quest is centered around preventing some major temporal change that would have undeniably catastrophic effects on the future. You start mucking around with something like that, you get paradoxes (I'll kill Karsus!) and people wanting to change time to their own benefit and things like that (Motley Lou!). Going the "bring some knowledge/long-lost item forward but not change anything" route keeps most of the potential time travel conundrums out of the equation.

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