Candlekeep Forum
Candlekeep Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Forgotten Realms Journals
 General Forgotten Realms Chat
 Introducing spelljamming SUDDENLY back to Toril
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Previous Page | Next Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 5

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
9635 Posts

Posted - 23 Sep 2020 :  18:28:22  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red

Well, I can point out that with both magic and powerful beings it could very well be possible that there are "unknown" continents. First you have 'unknown' natural magical effects like illusions, including invisibility and enchantment effects like erasing memories(like the Gap from the Xanth novels) or even transmutation like 'endless cloud cover'. But you also have powerful beings, gods and wizards and god wizards and more. So a being or group of beings could have hid a land under an illusion or never ending cloud cover. And finally you could have a group(s) that are anti-map for some reason. Now yes, you can not open a Realms book and point to page 33 and dance around all happy and say "the almighty book says".....but still any of the above are possible.



Given that we already have an illusion covering the face of the moon, its stretches the credibility when we might suddenly also have whole continents the size of Faerun that are covered as well (as in, why). Now, one of the things I've pointed out in the past is how credible are those maps when continents can come and go (after all, I'm not even entirely sure that Maztica was THERE before the 1300's). Still, I don't care what anyone says, we should have a ROUGH (as in more than just an outline) of what's where. Granted we're talking making a map possibly from orbit, so scale can be off, mountains might be drawn as hills, whether a place is a jungle or a forest called into question. That being said, we don't need that scale for continents we're not on.... but we should have a rough layout... and from there we can work on fleshing out things more. Of course, until someone's ready to actually flesh out Osse and use it, I'm fine with leaving it alone. Lord knows giving some layout to everything else takes time. I'd actually be more concerned with fleshing out the 3 smaller continents west and north of Anchorome.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7235 Posts

Posted - 23 Sep 2020 :  18:33:28  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Rules of magic have changed again and again. Sometimes because of cosmic (rules) evolution. Sometimes because of divine decree.

Existing items (like spelljammer helms) could have remained intact, could have had their magical properties changed, could have become inert.

They might have been nerfed from interstellar spaceship helms into flying skyship helms. Just like some 1E artifacts (and quasimagics) got nerfed in 2E, some 2E artifacts got nerfed in 3E, etc.
While construction of new helms might involves high-level magics which have been restricted (by Ao or by a Mystra). Just like mythals and mythallars and time travel.

An interesting side note is that the Spelljammer setting always had gonnes and gonnepowder of a sort which were nonmagical (chemical?) yet which still worked properly in Realmspace. While smokepowder in the Realms was definitely magical and after 1E was also "strictly" compliant to Ao's bossy imperative.
I suspect that nonmagical gunpowder and explosives which slip under Ao's radar would be a high-demand commodity. It would be immune to magical detections, it would even work in dead-magic and wild-magic zones.

[/Ayrik]
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
9635 Posts

Posted - 23 Sep 2020 :  19:04:41  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Rules of magic have changed again and again. Sometimes because of cosmic (rules) evolution. Sometimes because of divine decree.

Existing items (like spelljammer helms) could have remained intact, could have had their magical properties changed, could have become inert.

They might have been nerfed from interstellar spaceship helms into flying skyship helms. Just like some 1E artifacts (and quasimagics) got nerfed in 2E, some 2E artifacts got nerfed in 3E, etc.
While construction of new helms might involves high-level magics which have been restricted (by Ao or by a Mystra). Just like mythals and mythallars and time travel.

An interesting side note is that the Spelljammer setting always had gonnes and gonnepowder of a sort which were nonmagical (chemical?) yet which still worked properly in Realmspace. While smokepowder in the Realms was definitely magical and after 1E was also "strictly" compliant to Ao's bossy imperative.
I suspect that nonmagical gunpowder and explosives which slip under Ao's radar would be a high-demand commodity. It would be immune to magical detections, it would even work in dead-magic and wild-magic zones.



On smokepowder, technically realmspace already HAS a resource of a sort on the first planet with .... some plant name I can't recall at this second. Its less effective/powerful mind you according to the description, but yeah, I wouldn't mind allowing it. Hell, wasn't there even a novel where they were building a canal and the guy ended up making something akin to dynamite (I may be very wrong there). Honestly though, not all "big blastiness" needs to be in the hands of wizards, and perhaps as we "discover" other areas of the world we uncover that they're more technological than magical.

On the nerfing of helms... yeah, I like that idea that "the weave changing" also affected the "effectiveness" of helms to explain away them being a helluva lot less efficient.... because they don't need to be "zippy".. they just need to be able to be fast to travel between worlds once they're actually IN wildspace. If it takes them a day to leave atmosphere, I could care less personally, and if having them take a day to leave atmosphere controls the "zipping all around the world in a day" then great.

Hell, actually, if it takes them 3 days to leave atmosphere and 3 days to land, but only a day to go from the first planet to the third planet (and I'm just throwing out numbers randomly), its still not unbelievable. That whole time they're still in atmosphere they're still breathing the air of the world. Sure, they gotta pack more food, but it shouldn't be a major thing, right? Maybe the amount of time to ascend and descend might even depend on the size of the world (small worlds you can come and go quickly, large worlds take longer to adjust to the gravity maybe)?

But keep throwing out the ideas, because I hadn't actually thought up what wooly said about leaving atmosphere, zipping around the world in a second and then coming back in.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 23 Sep 2020 19:10:27
Go to Top of Page

bloodtide_the_red
Learned Scribe

USA
111 Posts

Posted - 24 Sep 2020 :  06:48:10  Show Profile  Visit bloodtide_the_red's Homepage Send bloodtide_the_red a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, Spelljamming is also with all the other world changing magic: Notably Divination, autonomous animation of objects, creation magic, healing magic.....and of course teleportation magic. The generic "default" D&D world in the core rules is over flowing with such magic, but then offers pointless fluff that says the magic never changes the world, so the world is "locked in time" to be like Earth in 1300 AD or so.

Of course, the Forgotten Realms has a much bigger problem as Toril has...er, ten times the amount of magic of the default game world. The hype is spellcasters just "don't change the world", but it very silly to think this would be true for even the last 2,000 years of Realms history. Things really fall apart when you figure each town has roughly 25 spellcasters of levels 1-10 that are pure non combatants and live in the town for roughly sixty years. Even when you take away 20 years of childhood and youth, you still get 40 years. And even one 1st level spellcaster can do a lot towards changing the world in 40 years. Silent Image, Unseen Servant and Charm Person can do a LOT....then just think of Realms spells like: Weathertell, Ghostharp or Moonglow.

So you need a reason why all that magic does not exist, and Spelljamming is a part of that.
Go to Top of Page

Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe

USA
248 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2020 :  04:02:36  Show Profile  Visit Storyteller Hero's Homepage Send Storyteller Hero a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Spelljamming is featured in the 4e era novel "Corsair".

There could have been a period of malfunctions, but at some point before the Weave was fully restored, spelljamming was possible.

I wrote a history for my Realmspace project on DMsGuild to help fill in the gaps.

Three elven swords (the Crownblade, Warblade, and Artblade of Cormanthyr) brought to Evermeet in 1465 DR (The Year of the Elven Swords Returned) are discovered to be prototype helms in addition to their other properties, and become the foundation for a new design of helms adapted to the environment of Realmspace. The knowledge is shared with allies and spreads (albeit slowly), enabling the resumption of spelljamming activities.

Due to a long period of spelljamming cut off in Realmspace, many derelict ships, stations, and whatnot are now dungeons of wildspace, and focus is now on rebuilding and reclaiming for the spelljamming peoples of Realmspace.









My Blog: https://www.facebook.com/Johnnys-Tabletop-RPG-Design-Blog-1697026710539149/?ref=aymt_homepage_panel

My DMG Shop: http://www.dmsguild.com/browse.php?x=0&y=0&author=Johnny%20Tek


Edited by - Storyteller Hero on 25 Sep 2020 04:05:41
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
9635 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2020 :  13:33:59  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero

Spelljamming is featured in the 4e era novel "Corsair".

There could have been a period of malfunctions, but at some point before the Weave was fully restored, spelljamming was possible.

I wrote a history for my Realmspace project on DMsGuild to help fill in the gaps.

Three elven swords (the Crownblade, Warblade, and Artblade of Cormanthyr) brought to Evermeet in 1465 DR (The Year of the Elven Swords Returned) are discovered to be prototype helms in addition to their other properties, and become the foundation for a new design of helms adapted to the environment of Realmspace. The knowledge is shared with allies and spreads (albeit slowly), enabling the resumption of spelljamming activities.

Due to a long period of spelljamming cut off in Realmspace, many derelict ships, stations, and whatnot are now dungeons of wildspace, and focus is now on rebuilding and reclaiming for the spelljamming peoples of Realmspace.




Hey, since I don't have that particular novel, can you give a somewhat decent summary of what occurred with that? I think I recall someone saying that the moon was visited in one of those novels, but for some reason I had thought it had been with portal travel. Any details (type of ship, where they went, who they interacted with, why they were there, etc...) I'd appreciate if you have a few minutes.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe

USA
248 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2020 :  23:06:20  Show Profile  Visit Storyteller Hero's Homepage Send Storyteller Hero a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero

Spelljamming is featured in the 4e era novel "Corsair".

There could have been a period of malfunctions, but at some point before the Weave was fully restored, spelljamming was possible.

I wrote a history for my Realmspace project on DMsGuild to help fill in the gaps.

Three elven swords (the Crownblade, Warblade, and Artblade of Cormanthyr) brought to Evermeet in 1465 DR (The Year of the Elven Swords Returned) are discovered to be prototype helms in addition to their other properties, and become the foundation for a new design of helms adapted to the environment of Realmspace. The knowledge is shared with allies and spreads (albeit slowly), enabling the resumption of spelljamming activities.

Due to a long period of spelljamming cut off in Realmspace, many derelict ships, stations, and whatnot are now dungeons of wildspace, and focus is now on rebuilding and reclaiming for the spelljamming peoples of Realmspace.




Hey, since I don't have that particular novel, can you give a somewhat decent summary of what occurred with that? I think I recall someone saying that the moon was visited in one of those novels, but for some reason I had thought it had been with portal travel. Any details (type of ship, where they went, who they interacted with, why they were there, etc...) I'd appreciate if you have a few minutes.



Well hopefully without spoiling too much, basically a ship is found, and it happens to be one of several with helms being used to conduct shady business on one of Selune's Tears. So yes, spelljamming is used to go back and forth rather than portals or teleporting. They were just regular sailing ships for the most part and the helms are handheld objects that are inserted into slots and activated with a bit of magical energy interaction by touch.

Neogi space merchants and pirates of the Moonsea are involved. The presence of the Neogi suggested that at the very least, the neogi were spelljamming in Realmspace before they got in contact with human pirates.







My Blog: https://www.facebook.com/Johnnys-Tabletop-RPG-Design-Blog-1697026710539149/?ref=aymt_homepage_panel

My DMG Shop: http://www.dmsguild.com/browse.php?x=0&y=0&author=Johnny%20Tek

Go to Top of Page

AuldDragon
Senior Scribe

USA
397 Posts

Posted - 26 Sep 2020 :  00:11:42  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Something that has been around a lot longer than Spelljamming and which doesn't lead to anywhere near as many "this would disrupt the economy!" posts is teleportation and permanency.

There's even a canonical example (Aurora's Emporium), that canonically doesn't break the economy, and without any detailed explanation. So why do we need a specific explanation for Spelljamming?

Just say it doesn't, cite nebulous dangers, and if players try it, get creative.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
Go to Top of Page

AuldDragon
Senior Scribe

USA
397 Posts

Posted - 26 Sep 2020 :  00:32:44  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red

I'm sure "locked" crystal spheres are cannon, as they are mentioned a few times. Just like there are dead flow areas.


There's a Netherese spell (10th or 11th level) that can lock (and reversed unlocks) a sphere, but no canonical examples of it being used. The Athas mention is a case of "it is either inaccessible or distant, DM's choice" without a firm stance any way. The closest example of a "locked" sphere is Clusterspace, but that is more of a Hotel California sphere, where any ship can just pass through the shell as if it were not there to get in, but no normal means can get one out. There are no natural portals and none of the spells to create portals work. There may be some "what-if" discussion about it designed to spur DM creativity though. Locked crystal spheres are, to an extent, "pointless" from an adventuring point of view, because they don't present a problem or a threat or an obstacle for adventurers to deal with, it's just a big thing that's there.

quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red

But really, why not just say Spelljammers have been there all along?



This, exactly. Spelljammers who frequent a given sphere generally know if the groundlings are aware of spelljamming or not, and will take precautions in cases where they don't. In the case of Faerun, cargo vessels will generally dock in the Tears of Selune and sell their cargo to shipping concerns that use groundling-style vessels which will land out of sight of land and then sail into ports like Waterdeep. Think of it like how most overseas goods that come into the US go first to places like New York or Los Angeles, rather than being shipped directly to Kansas City. Individual ships captured or used by wizards, adventurers, etc. would seem just like fancy skyships or something.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
Go to Top of Page

bloodtide_the_red
Learned Scribe

USA
111 Posts

Posted - 26 Sep 2020 :  02:20:29  Show Profile  Visit bloodtide_the_red's Homepage Send bloodtide_the_red a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Why Spelljamming is a problem in the Realms:

1.Lots of flying monsters. Dragons are the obvious ones, but there are plenty of others. The skies are not that friendly. And any flying cargo ship is an easy target.

2.Plenty of flying intelligent folk too. Cloud and storm giants, Gargoyles, Avariel, Urds, Raptorans, plus lots of 'half' races. Sky bandits is very much a thing.

3.Anti magic zones and wild amgic zones. Toril is full of these. And plenty are mobile, like clouds. Even just a couple floating around are a big hazard to a flying ship....

4.Sabotage. If your one of the people that does not have a spelljammer.....well, it's super easy to just attack and destroy the people that have them. Much more easy them getting your own spelljaming fleet.

5.Magical Malfunction. Before 3E, magic was strange, unknown and dangerous: anything could happen. Having a lot of powerful magic in one small place often created all sorts of magical mayhem.....including malfunctions.
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
9635 Posts

Posted - 26 Sep 2020 :  16:59:50  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red

I'm sure "locked" crystal spheres are cannon, as they are mentioned a few times. Just like there are dead flow areas.


There's a Netherese spell (10th or 11th level) that can lock (and reversed unlocks) a sphere, but no canonical examples of it being used. The Athas mention is a case of "it is either inaccessible or distant, DM's choice" without a firm stance any way. The closest example of a "locked" sphere is Clusterspace, but that is more of a Hotel California sphere, where any ship can just pass through the shell as if it were not there to get in, but no normal means can get one out. There are no natural portals and none of the spells to create portals work. There may be some "what-if" discussion about it designed to spur DM creativity though. Locked crystal spheres are, to an extent, "pointless" from an adventuring point of view, because they don't present a problem or a threat or an obstacle for adventurers to deal with, it's just a big thing that's there.

quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red

But really, why not just say Spelljammers have been there all along?



This, exactly. Spelljammers who frequent a given sphere generally know if the groundlings are aware of spelljamming or not, and will take precautions in cases where they don't. In the case of Faerun, cargo vessels will generally dock in the Tears of Selune and sell their cargo to shipping concerns that use groundling-style vessels which will land out of sight of land and then sail into ports like Waterdeep. Think of it like how most overseas goods that come into the US go first to places like New York or Los Angeles, rather than being shipped directly to Kansas City. Individual ships captured or used by wizards, adventurers, etc. would seem just like fancy skyships or something.

Jeff



Oh wow, I didn't even realize that. Yep, its in the Netheril boxed set. The name sounds like the opposite, but it actually locks a sphere. So, if it was developed, I'd think it probably got used (though not necessarily in realmspace mind you). I dont recall Proctiv, what do we know of him? Might it be interesting if they actually travelled to and locked Abeir (just the first idea that popped in my head)?

Proctiv's Breach Crystal Sphere
Arcanist Spells
(Alteration)
Level: 11 Field: Variation
Range: Touch Components: V, M
Duration: Permanent Casting Time: 1 turn
Area of Effect: One sphere Saving Throw: None

This spell allowed the caster to permanently close a crystal sphere to all traffic (if the reverse of the spell was used), though teleport spells would function. Casting the spell in its normal form superseded any previous seal cast on it, and traffic through the sphere was once again possible. (Any sphere sealed by this spell before the fall of Netheril was closed and cannot be entered except through the use of teleport spells).
The sealing of a sphere prevented spelljamming vessels from entering its space. Only through planar travel, teleportation magic, or other mystical means could one gain entry to a crystal sphere sealed by this spell. The material component for this spell was a 100-ton spelljamming vessel that contained a major helm, which was consumed at the utterance of the spell.


Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34002 Posts

Posted - 26 Sep 2020 :  18:15:33  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I know that that is a canon spell, and all, but I think it's just too damn powerful. I'd not let any one deity have the option of sealing a sphere, unless they were a deity of travel -- and even that's iffy. An entire crystal sphere means a big ball that is twice the diameter of the solar system -- so in the case of Realmspace, this means the spell would affect an area of 5,147,200,000,000 square miles. Five trillion square miles. That's orders of magnitude past lopping off the top of a mountain and making it float.

And it's permanent, on top of that? Nope, not happening, not with just a single mortal caster.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!

Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 26 Sep 2020 18:16:41
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
9635 Posts

Posted - 26 Sep 2020 :  19:03:24  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I know that that is a canon spell, and all, but I think it's just too damn powerful. I'd not let any one deity have the option of sealing a sphere, unless they were a deity of travel -- and even that's iffy. An entire crystal sphere means a big ball that is twice the diameter of the solar system -- so in the case of Realmspace, this means the spell would affect an area of 5,147,200,000,000 square miles. Five trillion square miles. That's orders of magnitude past lopping off the top of a mountain and making it float.

And it's permanent, on top of that? Nope, not happening, not with just a single mortal caster.



Yeah, but in essence, all its doing is making a single type of spell (create portal, and I think that's the only one?) not work on a single object (the sphere itself, not anything inside it... which is a targetable object). Its also not stopping any other type of travel, and if someone wants to get in they just need to counter the spell.

Just to note it, there's more on proctiv as I search his name. He's the guy that came up with the move mountain spell and a lot of other earth based magics. This spell was developed in 1808 NY or -2052 DR. Not sure if any of that will have any importance or play any factors in theories, just throwing it out as food for thought. Just to note, this is way after the Imaskari Godswall, and even a few centuries after the Mulan gods came in via spelljamming (which was in -2488 DR). Proctiv's move mountain was in 1746 NY according to this same list, but Ioulaum is noted as creating the first enclave in 866 NY with the same spell, so that's a time conflict. Also appears to be a POSSIBLE time conflict (not definitive) of sorts with the crystal sphere one too as they weren't spelljamming until several centuries later.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 26 Sep 2020 19:20:15
Go to Top of Page

Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7235 Posts

Posted - 26 Sep 2020 :  20:20:33  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A better question is not "how" but "why".

Why would a deity (or overdeity) choose to lock their sphere in the first place?
What is there to gain by isolating your world(s) from the rest of the spelljammer-thriving cosmos?

It seems like an excessively heavyhanded way to enforce a local ban on something like, say, smokepowder or intruders. There are much simpler ways for a deity (or its divine allies, its Chosens, its churches, its fanatics, and all their agents) to oppose such not-very-world-shattering threats and violations.

It also seems like it would draw a lot of energy to install and to sustain such a powerful magic. Not something a deity would invest lightly, even if it had enough power to accomplish such a thing.

And I don't think any Realms deities have "protect the world and the heavens from otherworldly visitors/invaders" anywhere in their portfolio. If such a portfolio even exists. If they do then they've been doing a pretty lousy job of it so far.

Faerunian deities are a petulant, squabbling group who can't (or won't) even manage to seal off a few annoying portals to the lower planes. Not individually. Not collectively.

[/Ayrik]
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34002 Posts

Posted - 26 Sep 2020 :  20:50:41  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I know that that is a canon spell, and all, but I think it's just too damn powerful. I'd not let any one deity have the option of sealing a sphere, unless they were a deity of travel -- and even that's iffy. An entire crystal sphere means a big ball that is twice the diameter of the solar system -- so in the case of Realmspace, this means the spell would affect an area of 5,147,200,000,000 square miles. Five trillion square miles. That's orders of magnitude past lopping off the top of a mountain and making it float.

And it's permanent, on top of that? Nope, not happening, not with just a single mortal caster.



Yeah, but in essence, all its doing is making a single type of spell (create portal, and I think that's the only one?) not work on a single object (the sphere itself, not anything inside it... which is a targetable object). Its also not stopping any other type of travel, and if someone wants to get in they just need to counter the spell.


It would block naturally existing portals, and the spells and items that exist solely to create portals in sphere -- every single one of them, forever, over an unimaginably huge area. That's beyond over-powered.

Look at it this way: what if there was a spell that could allow any powerful enough mage to block all fireball spells, anywhere on Toril? The mage decides no one is going to use fireball ever again, and that's it -- no fireballs from memorized spells, no fireballs from scrolls, no fireballs from magic items, no fireballs from spell-like effects, none. Not anywhere on the surface, in the Underdark, or in the skies above. No fireballs, anywhere, ever again, from anyone -- unless someone else came along and specifically cast the same spell, to undo that effect.

That's similar to what Proctiv's Breach Crystal Sphere is doing -- except Proctiv's spell would also block all naturally existing fires, and the area of effect is scaled up by a few orders of magnitude.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!

Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 26 Sep 2020 20:51:16
Go to Top of Page

Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe

USA
248 Posts

Posted - 27 Sep 2020 :  09:35:59  Show Profile  Visit Storyteller Hero's Homepage Send Storyteller Hero a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Proctiv's Crystal Sphere spells may not be as powerful as they might seem at first glance.

The basis of the spells might rely on accessing some design already built into the sphere wall.

It may be more like a key rather than an instant fortress.

That could place it within a reasonable range of what one might expect from 11th level single caster spells.








My Blog: https://www.facebook.com/Johnnys-Tabletop-RPG-Design-Blog-1697026710539149/?ref=aymt_homepage_panel

My DMG Shop: http://www.dmsguild.com/browse.php?x=0&y=0&author=Johnny%20Tek

Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34002 Posts

Posted - 27 Sep 2020 :  15:39:32  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero

Proctiv's Crystal Sphere spells may not be as powerful as they might seem at first glance.

The basis of the spells might rely on accessing some design already built into the sphere wall.

It may be more like a key rather than an instant fortress.

That could place it within a reasonable range of what one might expect from 11th level single caster spells.




Nothing that I'm familiar with suggests that crystal sphere have some mechanism for being entirely sealed off, forever. The existence of naturally occurring portals and the fact that some creatures are innately able to create portals would argue against that.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
9635 Posts

Posted - 27 Sep 2020 :  15:40:40  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I know that that is a canon spell, and all, but I think it's just too damn powerful. I'd not let any one deity have the option of sealing a sphere, unless they were a deity of travel -- and even that's iffy. An entire crystal sphere means a big ball that is twice the diameter of the solar system -- so in the case of Realmspace, this means the spell would affect an area of 5,147,200,000,000 square miles. Five trillion square miles. That's orders of magnitude past lopping off the top of a mountain and making it float.

And it's permanent, on top of that? Nope, not happening, not with just a single mortal caster.



Yeah, but in essence, all its doing is making a single type of spell (create portal, and I think that's the only one?) not work on a single object (the sphere itself, not anything inside it... which is a targetable object). Its also not stopping any other type of travel, and if someone wants to get in they just need to counter the spell.


It would block naturally existing portals, and the spells and items that exist solely to create portals in sphere -- every single one of them, forever, over an unimaginably huge area. That's beyond over-powered.

Look at it this way: what if there was a spell that could allow any powerful enough mage to block all fireball spells, anywhere on Toril? The mage decides no one is going to use fireball ever again, and that's it -- no fireballs from memorized spells, no fireballs from scrolls, no fireballs from magic items, no fireballs from spell-like effects, none. Not anywhere on the surface, in the Underdark, or in the skies above. No fireballs, anywhere, ever again, from anyone -- unless someone else came along and specifically cast the same spell, to undo that effect.

That's similar to what Proctiv's Breach Crystal Sphere is doing -- except Proctiv's spell would also block all naturally existing fires, and the area of effect is scaled up by a few orders of magnitude.



All its blocking is travel from the phologiston into the crystal sphere. Travel via any other means still works, and it can be unlocked.

On Ayrik's response, this isn't a deity spell, its a wizard one, so it would be a better question to ask "why would some wizard want to stop spelljammers coming into his wildspace". That I can see happening, for instance, if say they knew that illithids or scro or neogi were coming in via this method. Maybe they view the benefits of closing the sphere outweigh any personal benefits they gain from traversing it.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34002 Posts

Posted - 27 Sep 2020 :  15:55:49  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

All its blocking is travel from the phologiston into the crystal sphere. Travel via any other means still works, and it can be unlocked.



It can only be unlocked with the same spell.

My issue with this spell is twofold: it's permanent, and it affects the entirely of the largest things in existence in D&D. In the case of Realmspace, we're talking about a permanent spell that affects an area of 5,000,000,000,000 square miles, with no saving throw.

If it was something like an area of a thousand miles, I'd not care. But an entire sphere, forever? No, that's just too over-powered.

This spell would stop the Spelljammer itself, and that's like a living artifact.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
9635 Posts

Posted - 27 Sep 2020 :  16:58:01  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

All its blocking is travel from the phologiston into the crystal sphere. Travel via any other means still works, and it can be unlocked.



It can only be unlocked with the same spell.

My issue with this spell is twofold: it's permanent, and it affects the entirely of the largest things in existence in D&D. In the case of Realmspace, we're talking about a permanent spell that affects an area of 5,000,000,000,000 square miles, with no saving throw.

If it was something like an area of a thousand miles, I'd not care. But an entire sphere, forever? No, that's just too over-powered.

This spell would stop the Spelljammer itself, and that's like a living artifact.



Just for devil's advocate sake though, mortals also cast a spell that prevented gods traversing to the plane by other methods, forcing them to create manifestations and physically travel to the sphere with the Imaskari Godswall. Between the two concepts, I'd find that one more powerful.

That being said, the only reason I was talking about locking the sphere was to try and limit the arcane coming in to sell helms, and we can come up with other ways to do that (though people may come up with some other reasons that I'm not thinking of). For instance, if the sphere itself were somehow bad for the health of arcane (particularly if it leaks back through their telepathic link), that can accomplish the same goal. But, it is good to know that there's the option out there (even if said option is no longer possible to be cast now in the same way since 11th level spells no longer can be cast). Now it would require some form of epic magic (which isn't even detailed for 5e yet), and betting it would require some kind of sacrifice like a mythal.... hmmmm, which opens up a weird thought, but a "mythal ghost" tied to a crystal sphere... think there could be a fun story line with that somehow.

That being said, something else just occurred to me, in that Rime of the Frostmaiden adventure has that time reset option to just 4 years before Karsus' Folly. So, someone in theory could go back in time to create this, which is normally not a period people can travel back to.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34002 Posts

Posted - 27 Sep 2020 :  17:06:47  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

All its blocking is travel from the phologiston into the crystal sphere. Travel via any other means still works, and it can be unlocked.



It can only be unlocked with the same spell.

My issue with this spell is twofold: it's permanent, and it affects the entirely of the largest things in existence in D&D. In the case of Realmspace, we're talking about a permanent spell that affects an area of 5,000,000,000,000 square miles, with no saving throw.

If it was something like an area of a thousand miles, I'd not care. But an entire sphere, forever? No, that's just too over-powered.

This spell would stop the Spelljammer itself, and that's like a living artifact.



Just for devil's advocate sake though, mortals also cast a spell that prevented gods traversing to the plane by other methods, forcing them to create manifestations and physically travel to the sphere with the Imaskari Godswall. Between the two concepts, I'd find that one more powerful.


The Imaskari Godswall involved multiple casters, though -- it wasn't just one person doing it. And we don't know how that Godswall worked -- as I've stated before, I think it was blocking prayers from getting out, so that the gods would not have any power in the sphere and would thus be unable to act.

Also, the Imaskari Godswall only blocked a specific set of deities -- not all of them.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

That being said, the only reason I was talking about locking the sphere was to try and limit the arcane coming in to sell helms, and we can come up with other ways to do that (though people may come up with some other reasons that I'm not thinking of). For instance, if the sphere itself were somehow bad for the health of arcane (particularly if it leaks back through their telepathic link), that can accomplish the same goal. But, it is good to know that there's the option out there (even if said option is no longer possible to be cast now in the same way since 11th level spells no longer can be cast). Now it would require some form of epic magic (which isn't even detailed for 5e yet), and betting it would require some kind of sacrifice like a mythal.... hmmmm, which opens up a weird thought, but a "mythal ghost" tied to a crystal sphere... think there could be a fun story line with that somehow.




I think the Arcane, if blocked from entering the sphere via portals, would use other magics to get in -- and then sell similar things as far and wide as possible.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
9635 Posts

Posted - 27 Sep 2020 :  18:20:29  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

All its blocking is travel from the phologiston into the crystal sphere. Travel via any other means still works, and it can be unlocked.



It can only be unlocked with the same spell.

My issue with this spell is twofold: it's permanent, and it affects the entirely of the largest things in existence in D&D. In the case of Realmspace, we're talking about a permanent spell that affects an area of 5,000,000,000,000 square miles, with no saving throw.

If it was something like an area of a thousand miles, I'd not care. But an entire sphere, forever? No, that's just too over-powered.

This spell would stop the Spelljammer itself, and that's like a living artifact.



Just for devil's advocate sake though, mortals also cast a spell that prevented gods traversing to the plane by other methods, forcing them to create manifestations and physically travel to the sphere with the Imaskari Godswall. Between the two concepts, I'd find that one more powerful.


The Imaskari Godswall involved multiple casters, though -- it wasn't just one person doing it. And we don't know how that Godswall worked -- as I've stated before, I think it was blocking prayers from getting out, so that the gods would not have any power in the sphere and would thus be unable to act.

Also, the Imaskari Godswall only blocked a specific set of deities -- not all of them.



None of that is definitive. We don't know how many people it took to enact the godswall. We don't know that it blocked only specific deities, as there were a lot of deities that apparently came to the place in corporeal form in the last few thousand years from outside. You're also comparing a magic system that was notedly overpowered.

That being said, none of it really matters. Whether its a ritual requiring a single 45th level caster or a boatload of lesser casters, plus a dragon, plus sacrificing a life, plus destroying several magic items, etc... the point is that there is a possible way to block a sphere if we wanted to. The debate now is just on whether we want to, and it looks like we have other methods to accomplish the end goal. Whether the end goal resolves issues to is in debate, though I think if we present no safe way for arcane to physically enter realsmpace that might at least slow the influx. Also, if someone else takes it to be a new market and wants to essentially become the arcane there, the arcane MIGHT just arrange for said merchants to come to a bad end (because they seem to be THAT controlling). In the end, we all see realmspace as important, but in the cosmic view, its just another crystal sphere.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7235 Posts

Posted - 27 Sep 2020 :  18:31:23  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If the spell is written as described here then I have to agree it's ridiculously overpowered. It can lock the entire crystal sphere ... it can even block passage from small gods ... yet good old Proctiv (and his peers) didn't seem to have any way to block out a little phaerimm invasion.

Besides the point anyhow since nobody can cast 11th level magics aside from Mystra herself (and/or her boss). Not sure even she can do it because of conflict of interest vs her portfolio ... she's supposed to sustain, nurture, and encourage magic, not seal it away. If you accept 4E's Spellplague as being valid then you also accept Mystra's power must reach every world and place the Spellplague affected.

I note that Netherese magics always used some constructed artifact as a power source. Karsus needed two mythallars to keep his oversized enclave aloft ... how many of these engines would you need to change the surface of a crystal sphere?
While elven magics always used some living force or entity as a power source. High Mages would have to sacrifice one of their number to form a living mythal ... how many sacrifices would they need to construct a mythal which encompasses the whole surface of a crystal sphere?

Faerun's Weave has been strained and broken many times - every time a new edition installs a new Mystra - some dead-magic and wild-magic zones created as early as the Avatar Crisis still persist in 4E Realmslore, let alone the entire Anauroch life-drain leftover from the retro-1E fall of Netheril. I doubt the Weave is capable of being stretched across the entire crystal sphere.

[/Ayrik]
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
9635 Posts

Posted - 27 Sep 2020 :  19:22:53  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

If the spell is written as described here then I have to agree it's ridiculously overpowered. It can lock the entire crystal sphere ... it can even block passage from small gods ... yet good old Proctiv (and his peers) didn't seem to have any way to block out a little phaerimm invasion.

Besides the point anyhow since nobody can cast 11th level magics aside from Mystra herself (and/or her boss). Not sure even she can do it because of conflict of interest vs her portfolio ... she's supposed to sustain, nurture, and encourage magic, not seal it away. If you accept 4E's Spellplague as being valid then you also accept Mystra's power must reach every world and place the Spellplague affected.

I note that Netherese magics always used some constructed artifact as a power source. Karsus needed two mythallars to keep his oversized enclave aloft ... how many of these engines would you need to change the surface of a crystal sphere?
While elven magics always used some living force or entity as a power source. High Mages would have to sacrifice one of their number to form a living mythal ... how many sacrifices would they need to construct a mythal which encompasses the whole surface of a crystal sphere?

Faerun's Weave has been strained and broken many times - every time a new edition installs a new Mystra - some dead-magic and wild-magic zones created as early as the Avatar Crisis still persist in 4E Realmslore, let alone the entire Anauroch life-drain leftover from the retro-1E fall of Netheril. I doubt the Weave is capable of being stretched across the entire crystal sphere.



IF we wanted to use this as a plot device, I'd probably do something wherein the effect had been used to isolate Abeir somehow in the past (such that possibly some of the Netherese knew something of this other world) and that the "collision" between the two transferred the effect or extended the effect or something similar. We do know that this crystal sphere is somehow special because its the only one whose interior has special runes on its interior, almost like it does hve some kind of spell effect on it. In the end, its a canon effect, just like the Imaskari Godswall, and I only mention how I'd implement it because a lot of times describing how to use a mechanic can spur ideas.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7235 Posts

Posted - 28 Sep 2020 :  00:31:34  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I suppose it's not necessary to shield the entire sphere. A small region (about the size created by a spelljammer's portal spells) would suffice if it could be interposed at the correct location when needed.

Although it could then be overwhelmed by multiple simultaneous incoming vectors. Spelljammers are likely to show up individually, perhaps days or weeks apart, perhaps a few per hour at most. But a swarm of them arriving at once (some kind of spacefaring fleet, convoy, or caravan) or a coordinated intrusion attempt (planned incursion/invasion) could overwhelm localized response capabilities.

A simpler agency might be a guard dog. To discourage trespassers, to remove trespassers (one way or another), or to simply raise an alarm.

Or instead of a guard dog patrolling the property from within ... a wolf preying on those who approach the property from without. A predatory presence not necessarily welcomed by the property's owner.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 28 Sep 2020 00:36:00
Go to Top of Page
Page: of 5 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Previous Page | Next Page
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
Candlekeep Forum © 1999-2020 Candlekeep.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000