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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
9745 Posts

Posted - 01 Sep 2020 :  12:13:23  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I've seen many thoughts that certain people from OUR world (earth) came to Toril over the years. I can understand why people go with this idea, because Ed established from the get go that our world and Toril are linked with the assumption that Ed and Elminster were talking. However, I find myself wondering if that's a good idea, or is it like ancient philosophers of our own world who considered "we must be the center of the universe". What I'm about to propose isn't ground breaking, but I feel like its something we've teetered around for years but that we haven't fully discussed. I therefore throw this out for discussion and let's see where it goes. Perhaps some germ develops into something.

What I've been wondering is, since we're just making a story in either direction, WOULD it be a better story if some of the same people's that came to Toril ALSO came to earth at different times and from different worlds. Perhaps they brought with them the same beliefs and religions. Perhaps their temporary ties from their world to our world and their knowledge of magics in their world actually ALLOWED magic to work here. As belief in their gods died out, so did ties between their worlds. Maybe in OUR world DIVINE magics are not able to work as effectively as they do in OTHER worlds (maybe they require a stronger adherence to belief, maybe they require more sacrifice, maybe certain things only work at certain times, etc..).

Thus, we might have several migrations that happened in both Toril and earth from the same sources (not necessarily at the same times), but those sources are varied. By this, I mean the "Rus" who eventually come to Rashemen, the "Mulans" who come to the old empires, and even the "Chessentans" who seem to so resemble Greco/Roman society.

What got me thinking about this was the idea recently presented that Chessentans probably came from earth as well, but at the same time I'm reading this new "Mythic Odyssey of Theros" work. It occurs to me in reading it that possibly it might be an interesting idea if the Chessentan stock came from there. I then thought "and maybe that's where the Greeks came from in our own world". It could help explain away some of our own real world mythological races like centaurs, satyrs, minotaurs, etc...

I know one of the arguments is also the part about the Mulans coming from a world where "magic didn't work". However, I submit that magic DID work, because portals worked. So, perhaps "the weave didn't work the way its supposed to", and perhaps in the world of the Mulan arcane magic is not as strong as that of the divine or psionics or incarnum or pact magic or shadow magic, etc... Also, the Imaskari were able to function there well enough to take slaves, so perhaps they figured out some way to MAKE their magic work there. We have a concept known as the "weave tap" in canon which drew on the weave and converted the "energy" into shadow weave energy, so perhaps they developed something like that for that world.

Now, I know that folks are like "yeah, but there would be stories of some ancient portal opening up, etc...". However, I submit that what if the traversing was less of a "we walked through a portal and we were in another world" and more like the mists of Ravenloft. Most people don't have a huge knowledge of their own world outside of what they know to be beyond the horizon, so if there were sea portals that people might pass through, explorers might pass between worlds and not have a clue. This in fact is how the Isle of Jakandor setting was populated, and I think it could work here as well.

So, I put forth, which idea do you like better? Multiple cultures from earth being transferred to Toril OR multiple cultures on earth being affected by several different worlds at different times that also went to Toril at other times.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1861 Posts

Posted - 01 Sep 2020 :  13:05:26  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Mulan specifically came from a world where the inhabitants had no access to magic, but the Imaskari could work their own, hence why they picked that world as an easy source of defenseless slave stock.

Personally, I find any explanation which involves magic in Earth's history eye-rollingly dumb. As Tim Minchin said so entertainingly in his ten minute beat poem Storm, "Because throughout history; Every mystery; Ever solved has turned out to be; - Not magic!"

Leave such simplistic storytelling for fantasy worlds. The real world is a lot more complex and interesting than that.

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Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas

Edited by - Icelander on 01 Sep 2020 13:06:37
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ElfBane
Learned Scribe

USA
167 Posts

Posted - 01 Sep 2020 :  15:19:05  Show Profile Send ElfBane a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I like the idea. I've assumed all along that travel/communication is possible. What I won't do is sink my time into a D&D module/scenario... and maybe even develop the possibility of it becoming a video game or novel... just to have to give WotC/Hasbro a cut.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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34158 Posts

Posted - 01 Sep 2020 :  15:27:48  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Magic is obviously possible on Earth; Elminster (and other visitors to Ed's home) have worked their magic just fine.

I think that either magic works and it's thought not to because there are very few practitioners -- or there's someone on Earth actively working to keep people thinking magic doesn't work.

(Obviously this is all in-game)

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Lord Karsus
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USA
3451 Posts

Posted - 01 Sep 2020 :  16:02:18  Show Profile Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-I've always hated the concept. That said, all of these cultures have had enough time and development to feel like more than "Egypt/Greece/Russia but on another world". Even Kara-Tur, Zakhara, and Maztica, though it's more heavily ingrained in those settings than say, Chessenta or Mulhorand or Rasheman, places that have gotten more dedicated time to make them unique.

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
9745 Posts

Posted - 01 Sep 2020 :  16:37:37  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander

The Mulan specifically came from a world where the inhabitants had no access to magic, but the Imaskari could work their own, hence why they picked that world as an easy source of defenseless slave stock.

Personally, I find any explanation which involves magic in Earth's history eye-rollingly dumb. As Tim Minchin said so entertainingly in his ten minute beat poem Storm, "Because throughout history; Every mystery; Ever solved has turned out to be; - Not magic!"

Leave such simplistic storytelling for fantasy worlds. The real world is a lot more complex and interesting than that.



So, don't take this the wrong way, but for all the bluster I can't make out what your argument is. Exactly which idea are you for or against? The one in which our world sent several to Toril? Or the one in which several different worlds came to Earth and Toril at different times? Or neither (which contradicts actually what you were proposing in another thread, which is fine, everyone is allowed to change their minds... lord knows I do)?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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bloodtide_the_red
Learned Scribe

USA
118 Posts

Posted - 01 Sep 2020 :  16:47:35  Show Profile  Visit bloodtide_the_red's Homepage Send bloodtide_the_red a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, first I'd point out that Earth might not be the origin point. Maybe there was or is one....or maybe not. Maybe life just started in thousands of places across the universe and has been spreading and mixing and inter connecting forever.

Earth's history alone is full of both groups of people that simply 'appeared' from nowhere and whole groups of people that simply 'vanished' into nowhere. History is full of such things.

Egypt even specifically has the "Stargate" myth (that they based the movie and Tv show on) that travel between worlds was once possible.

Even today, something like a million or more people vanish every year...sure some change their identities, some die in a far off wilderness and some are kidnapped into the international slave trade. Still....what if some of those people that vanished really did leave the planet somehow.

And this does not even cover more complicated things like the John Carter stories: what if copies (clones?) of people are sent mentally between worlds, maybe even through time or with a time difference. Maybe a 'single' person has several copies...

Also, I don't see making a place like some historical place making it less "unique". There are only so many ideas. Most "new" ideas people think of have been done to death, over and over and over again. So two groups of people thinking up the same things is not so odd.
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1861 Posts

Posted - 01 Sep 2020 :  17:42:45  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

So, don't take this the wrong way, but for all the bluster I can't make out what your argument is. Exactly which idea are you for or against? The one in which our world sent several to Toril? Or the one in which several different worlds came to Earth and Toril at different times? Or neither (which contradicts actually what you were proposing in another thread, which is fine, everyone is allowed to change their minds... lord knows I do)?


What I mean is that world-traveling explanations for culture, history or language are fine for fictional settings, but any attempt to sell ideas like 'Ancient Egyptians actually came from another world' [insert any real-world culture] in the context of our real world crosses the line into too dumb to enjoy.

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
9745 Posts

Posted - 01 Sep 2020 :  18:02:38  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

So, don't take this the wrong way, but for all the bluster I can't make out what your argument is. Exactly which idea are you for or against? The one in which our world sent several to Toril? Or the one in which several different worlds came to Earth and Toril at different times? Or neither (which contradicts actually what you were proposing in another thread, which is fine, everyone is allowed to change their minds... lord knows I do)?


What I mean is that world-traveling explanations for culture, history or language are fine for fictional settings, but any attempt to sell ideas like 'Ancient Egyptians actually came from another world' [insert any real-world culture] in the context of our real world crosses the line into too dumb to enjoy.



Ok, at least I have your answer (your feelings aside).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
9745 Posts

Posted - 01 Sep 2020 :  18:11:04  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red

Earth's history alone is full of both groups of people that simply 'appeared' from nowhere and whole groups of people that simply 'vanished' into nowhere. History is full of such things.

Egypt even specifically has the "Stargate" myth (that they based the movie and Tv show on) that travel between worlds was once possible.

Even today, something like a million or more people vanish every year...sure some change their identities, some die in a far off wilderness and some are kidnapped into the international slave trade. Still....what if some of those people that vanished really did leave the planet somehow.




Yep, this is why I kind of brought this up. We don't have a road map through history for a lot of things. People just appear and disappear with no idea where they went, etc... I remember reading some story about some south american god last year and people were debating if he was a real person who was a viking that had travelled to south america. What appeared to be significant research had been done around this, yet it was still all a theory and in question.

If we write in that all these cultures originated from here to Toril, it kind of ties our hands for certain things in my view. However, if we leave it open in the other direction, then perhaps some other settings within the game can be tied together and new lore get created. But, maybe there's a downside to that that I'm not seeing.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
9745 Posts

Posted - 01 Sep 2020 :  22:50:24  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Also, I'm not asking "do you believe this?", because honestly if you believe that Ed is getting visits from Elminster then something is wrong. I don't believe I'm a cylon and have blood in me from the 12 colonies of Kobol, but I still liked battlestar galactica. I'm asking what's our impetus to choosing in one direction versus the other.

For instance, the advantages I see for multiple cultures from earth to toril is
bring language and social customs from earth to toril
possibly transport a certain person from our real world to toril for a story reason in the past (which I can see as a possible tool, but people would probably get flak over having Cleopatra showing up). I admit to having done this however for fun with relatively modern folk, including Mark Twain and Elvis impersonators.

the disadvantages I see for multiple cultures from earth to toril are
timeline issues (as in, which came first and how in our world). This can be tamed over with a magic handwavium, but...

the advantages to multiple cultures from different worlds to both earth and toril are
don't have to worry about when because it can happen whenever on both worlds
you can have similarities of language and customs and equate them to the origin world to a degree
You can even have those cultures going to the other world instead of toril directly and thus build in that direction

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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ElfBane
Learned Scribe

USA
167 Posts

Posted - 01 Sep 2020 :  23:11:56  Show Profile Send ElfBane a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Also, I'm not asking "do you believe this?", because honestly if you believe that Ed is getting visits from Elminster then something is wrong. I don't believe I'm a cylon and have blood in me from the 12 colonies of Kobol, but I still liked battlestar galactica. I'm asking what's our impetus to choosing in one direction versus the other.

For instance, the advantages I see for multiple cultures from earth to toril is
bring language and social customs from earth to toril
possibly transport a certain person from our real world to toril for a story reason in the past (which I can see as a possible tool, but people would probably get flak over having Cleopatra showing up). I admit to having done this however for fun with relatively modern folk, including Mark Twain and Elvis impersonators.

the disadvantages I see for multiple cultures from earth to toril are
timeline issues (as in, which came first and how in our world). This can be tamed over with a magic handwavium, but...

the advantages to multiple cultures from different worlds to both earth and toril are
don't have to worry about when because it can happen whenever on both worlds
you can have similarities of language and customs and equate them to the origin world to a degree
You can even have those cultures going to the other world instead of toril directly and thus build in that direction



I agree. We have to go this way because it is our culture. We have NO idea how other intelligent life may do these things, and to invent whole new ways.... well, is best left to SciFi writers. You don't "really" want to deal with what different species may need to breath. Leave that to SciFi.
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bloodtide_the_red
Learned Scribe

USA
118 Posts

Posted - 02 Sep 2020 :  00:39:55  Show Profile  Visit bloodtide_the_red's Homepage Send bloodtide_the_red a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If you want to have a bit of fun, and have it get a bit scary, there is always the idea that You are the dreamer and the dream. Anything you dream or think...becomes real somewhere(what ever "real" is). So...maybe the Realms are a "real" thing, after all your thoughts of such a place a real. And well...what if "we" are not "real"(whatever "real" is, of course), what if some dreamer somewhere is dreaming up us.
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
4049 Posts

Posted - 02 Sep 2020 :  07:41:43  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In any situation where there are portals too/from there will be at least a minimal mixture between worlds.

Hells, an entire Horde could have erupted into Earth from "somewhere else" such as the somewhat mysterious appearance of the Cimmerians in our world.

If the "World of Earth" has a minimal amount of magic that only works "under certain conditions" then structures like the Pyramids in various places, great stone monoliths and etc. could be accounted for. Those "conditions" could even be Udoxia or Mythallars. We don't have that much magic here now because they were either taken back to the Realms or destroyed.

Lots of ways for this to work.

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1764 Posts

Posted - 20 Sep 2020 :  22:53:47  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader sleyvas,

I like the idea of multiple cultures going to Toril, than the inverse. I think that is the best as it is self-serving. haha

I like the idea of the magic elsewhere as a vacation possibility more than it coming here and wreaking havoc, potentially. Think Stargate. ;)

The TV show shows it perfectly, hahaha.

Best regards,



Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Seethyr
Senior Scribe

USA
924 Posts

Posted - 21 Sep 2020 :  01:16:27  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think itís a matter of choice personally and determine whether or not the concept will enhance your game. I find the real world/fantasy world connection to be a trope that had its heyday in the 1980s (think DND Cartoon) but isnít so in vogue today.

Personally Iím not a big fan for the same reason I get so aggravated when politics gets brought up in gaming. This is my escape from the real world, the last thing I want is the real world invading it.

But again, personal choice - and certainly not far fetched with what Ed has said in the past.

Follow the Maztica (Aztec/Maya) and Anchorome (Indigenous North America) Campaigns on DMsGuild!

The Maztica Campaign
The Anchorome Campaign

Edited by - Seethyr on 21 Sep 2020 01:17:32
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1764 Posts

Posted - 21 Sep 2020 :  01:21:31  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Senior Scribe Seethyr,

I can certainly appreciate that. When I implement politics into my Realms campaign, I go to the root of systems as a social science, read the relevant Realms material, and then I apply it that way, to make sure I steer clear of the real world politics, as I agree with you completely about escapism. :)

Best regards,



Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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keftiu
Senior Scribe

476 Posts

Posted - 21 Sep 2020 :  01:45:10  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I loathe any fictional world that tries to do crossover with our world. I hate the background for the Mulhorandi (and that they worship gods from our world), I hated when Pathfinder went to 1910s Russia... bleh.

4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms.
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe

USA
394 Posts

Posted - 21 Sep 2020 :  02:35:54  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu

I loathe any fictional world that tries to do crossover with our world. I hate the background for the Mulhorandi (and that they worship gods from our world), I hated when Pathfinder went to 1910s Russia... bleh.



Oghma, Silvanus, Tyr, Loviatar and Mielikki come from real world mythologies. Would you condemn Faerun on that basis? Sharess is an alias of Bast and Helm arguably is an alias of Heimdahl.

EDIT: Tymora and Beshaba explicitly came from the remains of Tyche.

Edited by - Delnyn on 21 Sep 2020 02:39:34
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keftiu
Senior Scribe

476 Posts

Posted - 21 Sep 2020 :  03:02:17  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

quote:
Originally posted by keftiu

I loathe any fictional world that tries to do crossover with our world. I hate the background for the Mulhorandi (and that they worship gods from our world), I hated when Pathfinder went to 1910s Russia... bleh.



Oghma, Silvanus, Tyr, Loviatar and Mielikki come from real world mythologies. Would you condemn Faerun on that basis? Sharess is an alias of Bast and Helm arguably is an alias of Heimdahl.

EDIT: Tymora and Beshaba explicitly came from the remains of Tyche.



I mean... yeah? Those things absolutely bug me. Not sure what you think the big gotcha is here.

4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms.
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1764 Posts

Posted - 21 Sep 2020 :  03:50:50  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Learned Scribe Delnyn,

Salient points for sure. I don't mind crossover, as long as the story is sensible, believable, and I can suspend disbelief. :)

I rather enjoy the idea behind the Mulhorand people coming here, there was just some of that gods showing up in the Godmobile through the phlogiston that got a little weird. haha

Best regards,




Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
4049 Posts

Posted - 21 Sep 2020 :  03:59:57  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The very premise of the Forgotten Realms is some real world crossover. The portals to and from worlds is what makes the FR something I really like.

The very fact that there are Elm Trees, Roses, Corn, Rice and on and on and on goes to show that there were obvious crossovers of more than just culture.

The solid foundation of this crossover idea is what gives the explanation for why things that exist in THIS world can exist in the Forgotten Realms. It gives more weight to the suspension of disbelief because it gives an explanation of how so much is similar.

Without it, it is MUCH more difficult to explain the co-existence of so many identical things and results in much hand-waiviam and gods being the reason so much is similar...which to me isn't as good a reason.

So I LIKE that Tyr and company exist in the Forgotten Realms. I LIKE that there are multiple instances of cultures and such passing between the worlds...

It just makes things far smoother and easier to "believe" when reading about the Forgotten Realms.

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1764 Posts

Posted - 21 Sep 2020 :  06:12:57  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader Darden,

Well, I will say that I love the idea of how Tyr did appear during the Procession of Justice. So cool!

Best regards,



Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe

USA
394 Posts

Posted - 21 Sep 2020 :  13:16:18  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Actually, two Godsmobiles, one for the Mulhorandi pantheon and one for the Untheric pantheon. Alfred Pennyworth was not available, so Ao had to settle for Ptah to contact and guide both pantheons to Realmsspace.

quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Learned Scribe Delnyn,

Salient points for sure. I don't mind crossover, as long as the story is sensible, believable, and I can suspend disbelief. :)

I rather enjoy the idea behind the Mulhorand people coming here, there was just some of that gods showing up in the Godmobile through the phlogiston that got a little weird. haha

Best regards,





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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
9745 Posts

Posted - 21 Sep 2020 :  16:51:05  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

The very premise of the Forgotten Realms is some real world crossover. The portals to and from worlds is what makes the FR something I really like.

The very fact that there are Elm Trees, Roses, Corn, Rice and on and on and on goes to show that there were obvious crossovers of more than just culture.

The solid foundation of this crossover idea is what gives the explanation for why things that exist in THIS world can exist in the Forgotten Realms. It gives more weight to the suspension of disbelief because it gives an explanation of how so much is similar.

Without it, it is MUCH more difficult to explain the co-existence of so many identical things and results in much hand-waiviam and gods being the reason so much is similar...which to me isn't as good a reason.

So I LIKE that Tyr and company exist in the Forgotten Realms. I LIKE that there are multiple instances of cultures and such passing between the worlds...

It just makes things far smoother and easier to "believe" when reading about the Forgotten Realms.



But do we like the idea more of everything being "it came from earth to Toril"

OR

do we like the idea that some things came from Toril to earth

OR

do we like the idea some things came to Toril from elsewhere and THEN went to earth

OR

do we like the idea that some things came to Toril and came to earth separately but from the same source

OR

a mix of all of the above

This is the question I was looking for in this thread, not whether or not there should be some crossover concepts. What I've noted is that everything seems to be people doing the first concept of "it came from earth to Toril".

To note, these same questions might be applied to other worlds as well, because, for instance, the norse gods exist all over. We also have canonically that there is a Ravenloft version of earth that's literally dating most everything similar up until the 1890's with the Masque of the Red Death setting.


Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 21 Sep 2020 16:54:36
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe

USA
394 Posts

Posted - 21 Sep 2020 :  17:28:49  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My choice: A mix of all of the above.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

The very premise of the Forgotten Realms is some real world crossover. The portals to and from worlds is what makes the FR something I really like.

The very fact that there are Elm Trees, Roses, Corn, Rice and on and on and on goes to show that there were obvious crossovers of more than just culture.

The solid foundation of this crossover idea is what gives the explanation for why things that exist in THIS world can exist in the Forgotten Realms. It gives more weight to the suspension of disbelief because it gives an explanation of how so much is similar.

Without it, it is MUCH more difficult to explain the co-existence of so many identical things and results in much hand-waiviam and gods being the reason so much is similar...which to me isn't as good a reason.

So I LIKE that Tyr and company exist in the Forgotten Realms. I LIKE that there are multiple instances of cultures and such passing between the worlds...

It just makes things far smoother and easier to "believe" when reading about the Forgotten Realms.



But do we like the idea more of everything being "it came from earth to Toril"

OR

do we like the idea that some things came from Toril to earth

OR

do we like the idea some things came to Toril from elsewhere and THEN went to earth

OR

do we like the idea that some things came to Toril and came to earth separately but from the same source

OR

a mix of all of the above

This is the question I was looking for in this thread, not whether or not there should be some crossover concepts. What I've noted is that everything seems to be people doing the first concept of "it came from earth to Toril".

To note, these same questions might be applied to other worlds as well, because, for instance, the norse gods exist all over. We also have canonically that there is a Ravenloft version of earth that's literally dating most everything similar up until the 1890's with the Masque of the Red Death setting.



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